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Put ECMs on the Script crutch

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maralt	Posted - 2008.03.30 11:32:00 - [1] Originally by: Siigari Kitawa I was out flying with my buddies today roaming. We had a Broadsword, Hurricane and an Arazu. My friend said "We're so awesome, we've got like, your killer tank Broadsword, my awesome dps hurricane and Siig has her.. Arazu." I got sad at this point and said "Well if I was in a Falcon I'd be totally hailed as uber jammer." I realized at that moment that Dampeners have been dealt an unfair blow. They have been relegated to scripts, while ECMs enjoy their full range and full strength... plus a ton of strength modifiers. Damps are not given cool modules to boost their effectiveness like ECMs are, they are given some ** poor rigs though. So I say we put ECMs on the Scripting crutch. I would say let's make those dastardly ECM ships pay for being able to almost indefinitely permajam a ship. The scripts may be as follows: Jamming Strength Increases the strength of the module by 1.5x but reduces optimal range by 50% Jamming Range** Increases the optimal range of the module by 50% but reduces ecm strength by 50%. I think these would be fair changes... so if a ship wanted to jam up a ton of targets he'd have to be in the fray just like the rest of the ships. PS: perhaps 1.5x is too strong and maybe 1.25x is more fair. Make them a 100% guaranteed jam at optimal like damps and id go for that. Btw i fly a falcon and even using racial a jam is not 100% even with rigs and mods boosting t2 racial jammers to over 10.5 str.
maralt The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.03.30 11:41:00 - [2] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Originally by: maralt Make them a 100% guaranteed jam at optimal like damps and id go for that. Btw i fly a falcon and even using racial a jam is not 100% even with rigs and mods boosting t2 racial jammers to over 10.5 str. Sure. As soon as "100% chance" is at 15 km optimal tops. I think the same optimal as damps would be a more balanced reduction considering the op's post.
maralt	Posted - 2008.03.30 11:51:00 - [3] Edited by: maralt on 30/03/2008 11:53:54 Originally by: Deva Blackfire Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 30/03/2008 11:46:13 Originally by: maralt Originally by: Deva Blackfire Originally by: maralt Make them a 100% guaranteed jam at optimal like damps and id go for that. Btw i fly a falcon and even using racial a jam is not 100% even with rigs and mods boosting t2 racial jammers to over 10.5 str. Sure. As soon as "100% chance" is at 15 km optimal tops. I think the same optimal as damps would be a more balanced reduction considering the op's post. I think arazu/lachesis can not perma-disable 4-7 ships at once EDIT: i edited my previous post, worth reading it too :) And your saying that the falcon can 100% do that?. Nope it has a chance to disable 4-7 ships in range for 20 secs while the lach/arazu is 100% guaranteed to damp any ship in range permanently. Its a trade off although damps need unerfing as i love flying both the arazu and falcon. PS: scripts suck and should be removed and used as bog paper in a elephants dysentery clinic.
maralt	Posted - 2008.03.30 12:13:00 - [4] Originally by: Deva Blackfire "chance"? My falcon has a bit over 14 str on racials. That means i can PERMANENTLY jam half of the HACs (and ofc smaller ships) in this game. Even against battleships its jam chance is high enough to enable me to almost perma jam 3 battleships during combat (yes i know how chance based system works - and against for ex. geddon i have 97% to keep him offlined each cycle - its enough for me to call it permanent). And like i said before: does arazu/lache have even CHANCE to do so? From what i saw it can barely keep 1 (maybe 2 ships if it has lots of luck) disabled - thats ofc unless they decide to close a bit. Falcon just creates 150km "you cant do anything" sphere on ships he decides to jam. But as ppl have said that is all it can do and it needs to be 100% fitted and setup to do that while every other recon has other options while being able to do its e-war job. Boost other recon ships by all means but quit bringing out the nerf bat every time players learn a good way/fit to use a ship.
maralt	Posted - 2008.03.30 12:37:00 - [5] Edited by: maralt on 30/03/2008 12:38:21 Originally by: Deva Blackfire Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 30/03/2008 12:18:36 IIRC falcon has missile launcher hardpoints? And it has 7 mids so can fit different tools? Its only because people CAN maximize their uber-state to jam even more targets. Yeh falcon working with tackling stuff etc at close range would work but why put 3 jammers when you can put 6 and leave tackling to someone else. Anwyays ecm (or maybe falcon coz this is most unbalanced recon atm) state is like nanophoon before: to counter it you need specific recon (arazu/lache with damp range rigs + sensor booster) or other falcon. To counter nanophoon you needed specific recon (extended + injected huginn) or another nanophoon. EDIT: And i say NO to boosting other recons. They were worst addition to game standing just next ot capital ships. If ever balance recons they should be toned down to "disable" 1-2 ships not all of em to kill whole gang. 1 cruiser to counter 1 cruiser. Not 1 cruiser to counter whatever enemy brings. Theres no point talking to some body why reaches for the nerf bat every time players find a gr8 way of using a ship or module. And its not like ppl cannot specifically fit eccm units to match the specifically fitted falcon but nobody wants to use up a slot for that although they will happily use sensor boosters. A look at eve after ppl have nerfed every thing they do not want to fit a counter on there ship to deal with will be just like the old space invaders but with 2 sets of invaders facing each other blobbing and blipping away with no variation allowed in fits.
maralt	Posted - 2008.03.30 13:05:00 - [6] Originally by: Deva Blackfire When one ship is counter to everything then its imbalanced. And yes thats how you balance games - find what is abused and fix it. 1 ship totally and specifically fitted for that single job (and still not 100% guaranteed even with perfect skills) VS ships not fitted to counter it when they easily could be (1 single module) is not an imbalanced mechanic.
maralt	Posted - 2008.03.30 13:17:00 - [7] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Hmmm.... curse fit to tracking disrupt: disables only half of ships in this game (and still even with 6x TD you cant disable more like 3 ships) arazu/lache fit for dampening and even with 7 damps you can only disable 2-3 ships (if you try to disable more they can either lock far or lock fast) rapier - 6 webs 6 ships that are slowed down but can fight back falcon - 7 ships that are disabled and can go afk (around 4 ships if they are battleships) eccm tyvm nn bb.
maralt The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.03.30 13:25:00 - [8] Originally by: Deva Blackfire So oyu can counter curse w/o tracking mods (or even injector). You can counter arazu w/o sensor boosters. Same for huginn/rap. But ONLY falcon needs SPECIFIC module to counter it? Im not sure i understand what your getting at pls explain.
maralt The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.03.30 13:35:00 - [9] Edited by: maralt on 30/03/2008 13:37:19 Originally by: Deva Blackfire What im saying is you can counter curse/rapier/arazu when not prepared. You can not counter falcon without preparation. Only because the other e-war counters have other uses like lock range or tracking and ppl will fit them willingly or even as a standard fit for the bonuses like on sniper ships. While the counter for the ecm only counters the ecm and does not help in pvp so nobody wants to fit it.
maralt The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.03.30 13:49:00 - [10] Originally by: Deva Blackfire No. I meant WITHOUT counter modules. Yes you can kill curse not having injector or compys. You acn kill arazu not having sensor booster. You cannot kill falcon without ECCM. For falcon you will need blob. So in a 1v1 fight a falcon can jam but it cannot damage or move fast or tank lol and drones + fof will wipe it out. You cannot kill the other ewar ships easily if the guys flying them know their jobs unless you have the correct fit and falcons are paper thin with joke damage and speed so drones or fof will deal with them in a non blob 1v1 fight.
maralt The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.03.30 13:56:00 - [11] Originally by: Deva Blackfire If falcon runs and not dies its not win. Exactly same as nanophoon. So 1v1 you wont win. And its pretty probable 3v1 you wont catch him (unless you have lots of recons due to their ECCM str). Hmmm i have easy solution. Max 1 ECM module on ship can be used (1st come 1st serve). Suddenly it wont be able to permajam everything and it will be able to use other slots for "advantage" (the so called tank it lacks as you said). Do that to every recon in the game to be fair although i suggest you do not let ppl who like to fly recons find you roflmao.
maralt	Posted - 2008.03.30 16:56:00 - [12] There was never any need to nerf damps or even script them its just another example of the small minded looking to get rid of something that they were not willing to fit themselves or fit to counter.
maralt	Posted - 2008.03.30 17:57:00 - [13] Edited by: maralt on 30/03/2008 17:59:34 1. ecm do not need stacking penalties because they do not have a cumulative effect they either work or not unlike damps. 2. If speed is the answer to killing an arazu then drones and FOF missiles are the answer to falcons. 3. you claim that speed is needed to kill the arazu and later you claim that the "nano issue" is another topic. So are you saying that if speed gets nerfed that you will be looking to nerf arazu's damps again claiming they are over powered?. Its just a circle of nerfs wanted by pilots who think that just because they cannot out think, out fit, out skill or out fly a problem that it is a unsolvable problem and needs a nerf instead of the fact that they just aint as good as they think.
maralt The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.03.30 18:58:00 - [14] Edited by: maralt on 30/03/2008 19:05:39 Originally by: Deva Blackfire and using 2x ECM on one ship is not more effective than using 1? Dream on and read about statistics. Of course the more you try to use the more chance you have to jam but if the first ecm fails it does not reduce the sensor str of the ship for the second one. While damps do reduce range or speed and cannot fail thats why they have stacking penalties. Originally by: Deva Blackfire WTB 150-200km drone range and FOF missile range (ah ofc falcon needs to be CLOSEST enemy to be hit So you say that you need to be on top of the arazu to kill it but you seem to think that the falcon will be immune to fast ships and ppl getting close to it. They both need the attacker to be on top of them so its all square again as far as kill ability is concerned in fact the arazu has a much better tank. Originally by: Deva Blackfire Arazu is pretty slow. Nano nerf will hit both arazu and other ships. Thus you can still catch up to it. Then the nano nerf will effect all recons as the arazu and falcon need to be engaged at close range to be killed. Originally by: Deva Blackfire And thats just counter-whine of pilots who want their FOTM to be still uber. It takes the same thing to kill a falcon as it does an arazu, ie: uber close range the only diff is the you need drones or FOF for the falcon while the arazu can be killed by guns or normal missile. So the nerf is not needed at all.
maralt	Posted - 2008.03.30 21:10:00 - [15] Edited by: maralt on 30/03/2008 21:16:11 Originally by: Deva Blackfire Quote: Of course the more you try to use the more chance you have to jam but if the first ecm fails it does not reduce the sensor str of the ship for the second one. While damps do reduce range or speed and cannot fail thats why they have stacking penalties. Damps can fail like all EWar. Surprise - damps have pretty short optimal and when used in faloff they have normal "to hit" chance. If you miss there is no damp effect. Quote: It takes the same thing to kill a falcon as it does an arazu, ie: uber close range the only diff is the you need drones or FOF for the falcon while the arazu can be killed by guns or normal missile. And whats gonna keep falcon from WARPING when FOF or drones hit him? Surely not that "uber close range" but already jammed ship? And arazu on other hand when gets locked is dead. And i guess i hit dead on - you are falcon user who doesnt want to get his toy nerfed. Sorry, FOTM must get balanced. Bye. So because a falcon can warp off in a 1v1 fight you think it is over powered lol wtf can it kill cos it hits like a girl and tanks like a noob ship but because its go the ability to get away from a single ship (no a dictor ofc) you think its over powered. I fly the arazu mostly as my main is a 54 mil sp pure pvp gallante char but to fly the falcon is only a cruiser skill to 5 and a few ecm skills from using. I just do not like nerfits like you who think that a ship needs nerfing because you do not have the intellect or ingame pvp skills to counter or deal with it.
maralt	Posted - 2008.03.30 21:11:00 - [16] Edited by: maralt on 30/03/2008 21:10:53 Originally by: Feng Schui Originally by: maralt Originally by: Deva Blackfire So oyu can counter curse w/o tracking mods (or even injector). You can counter arazu w/o sensor boosters. Same for huginn/rap. But ONLY falcon needs SPECIFIC module to counter it? Im not sure i understand what your getting at pls explain. e-war tracking disruptors---------> Get Low transversal on the ships you want to hit damps-----------> Fly into range webber + target painter---------> Lower your transversal ECM----------fly into fof and drone range fixed
maralt The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.03.30 21:30:00 - [17] Edited by: maralt on 30/03/2008 21:32:31 Originally by: Feng Schui Edited by: Feng Schui on 30/03/2008 21:13:25 Originally by: maralt fixed FoF missiles are STILL using items specifically to counter ecm. And btw, drones don't auto engage someone using ecm on you if they are out of drone control range, even if you do get into range while being ecm'd, they'll just sit there idle. So 1. If its a 1 v 1 fight. 2. If a falcon locks you first so you cannot assign drones or damp him. 3. If he gets a jam before you get a damp(cos its not 100% guaranteed). 4. If he has no FOF and you can keep him at range. 5. If you fit it with tackle. Thats a lot of ifs for a uber ecm ship that needs a nerf but tbqh wtf is the falcon supposed to do with the guy he is fighting because it hits like a girl and nobody i know fits it with a web and a point so the target can warp off as well. The more i read the more i think it needs a boost.
maralt	Posted - 2008.03.30 22:18:00 - [18] Originally by: Angelic Eviaran Originally by: Erotic Irony won't ever happen the chance based nature of ecm coupled with impotent direct damage ecm ships makes the analogy to damps invalid--besides part of your complaint is already possible via heat Still doesnt change the fact that damps <<<<<< ecms. All other recons >>>>>>>>>> falcon in every other way.
maralt	Posted - 2008.03.31 01:25:00 - [19] Originally by: Angelic Eviaran Edited by: Angelic Eviaran on 31/03/2008 01:02:49 Originally by: maralt All other recons >>>>>>>>>> falcon in every other way. Are you stupid or something? Compare how many amarr and gallente recons you see to amounts of falcons and rapiers. You lie and you fail. I see plenty of all apart from the amarr ones tbqh but that just means amarr needs a boost not that the others need a nerf. PS:I never fail and i do not lie, i suggest you try to be a bit more polite in future if you wanna join a discussion on this forum. Reported in hopes a warning or short ban forces you to grow up and be a bit more polite in your posting when joining a forum debate
maralt	Posted - 2008.03.31 01:28:00 - [20] Edited by: maralt on 31/03/2008 01:28:11 double post
maralt The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.03.31 13:27:00 - [21] Edited by: maralt on 31/03/2008 13:31:15 Originally by: Deva Blackfire And yes - in small gang combat falcon IS invincible. Happy? Never lost falcon to gang under 10 people and never was even close to losing one. I know you like flying in 50-100 man goon blobs in which yeah - its hard to ECM everything. But surprise: there is much more in eve than your crap blobs. And thats where falcons can imbalance gameplay. In SMALL gang combat. EDIT: as for ships used around 34% are minnie recons around 33% are caldari recons around 17% are gal around 16% are amarr So if we dont include minnie ones (which as all know have little different ewar ability and are needed more often due to nanoships) caldari have MAJOR advantage in numbers over others. There is nothing stopping both small gangs from bringing a falcon or even two and that is where the nerf minded always fall apart in there crying. The fact is that gallente need to be un-nerfed and the amarr ship needs a boost. But then all we would see is ppl complaining that the amarr ship is to uber a solo pwn mobile and others complaining about gallente damps again. The fact is that ppl are reducing one ship then another then another because they suck too much at pvp to deal with them.
maralt The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.03.31 19:06:00 - [22] Edited by: maralt on 31/03/2008 19:09:52 Originally by: Deva Blackfire Originally by: maralt There is nothing stopping both small gangs from bringing a falcon or even two and that is where the nerf minded always fall apart in there crying. The fact is that gallente need to be un-nerfed and the amarr ship needs a boost. But then all we would see is ppl complaining that the amarr ship is to uber a solo pwn mobile and others complaining about gallente damps again. The fact is that ppl are reducing one ship then another then another because they suck too much at pvp to deal with them. Aaaand here we have another moot point. "There is nothing stopping people to bring nanophoon to counter nanphoon." "There is nothing stopping people to bring 8 sink geddon to counter 8 sink geddon". There is: ship shouldnt be a counter for itself. Its rock-paper-scissors game not rock-rock-scissors game. Thats why 8 sink geddon was nerfed. Thats why nanophoon got hit by nerfbat. Guess whos next on the "bring it to counter itself" list. Your entire argument relies on the falcon pilot locking every ship in range (although a long range sniper kinda blows you argument away) and getting a jam on them all before he is either locked, damped, jammed himself or a dmg dealer gets a volley or two off and insta pops him. Theres plenty of answers to the falcon and if you had any pvp or gang/team work skills worthy of note the falcon would not be something you think needs a nerf.
maralt The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.03.31 22:01:00 - [23] Originally by: Karina Bellac Originally by: Ulstan ECM's are already on scripts You have a separate scripted version for each race, and then a non scripted multi spectral version. This is like asking for scripts for turrets - already in game. It's called ammo. Eh? Scripts can be changed without the use of a fitting facility. ECM cannot. Then its a boost not a nerf cos scripts can refit in space depending on what ship race you are fighting.

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