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Titans are destroying the game. Remove the doomsday NOW.

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Traeon	Posted - 2008.03.30 23:15:00 - [1] DD's were never needed in the first place, and CCP apparently counted on them being so rare and hard to build that they'd never become overpowered. No ship class obsoletes the smaller ship classes below it, ie cruisers don't make frigs useless and so on. Why should titans be able to break this fundamental rule? There will be nerfs to either DD's or other things to make Titans more killable in the future. It's just a matter of time. One idea that I proposed was diminuishing returns for DD's fired on the same grid, so that massing dd'ing is no longer a viable tactic, but single dd's remaing useful.
Traeon	Posted - 2008.03.30 23:53:00 - [2] Originally by: Mysdora So what would be a good solution to this problem? Perhaps a new ship class / module that works a bit like heavy interdictors, except the bubble blocks 75% of doomsday damage of one type, and you use scripts to switch types? Or maybe instead of per-titan DD cooldown, you could have a per-grid DD cooldown so that you can't blast multiple DDs one after the other on the same grid. I suggested that the space where a doomsday is used becomes "drained" and subsequent dd's do less damage the more are used in a short timeframe. The space would return to normal after a certain amount fo time, say 60 minutes. In this way a single titan can dd as good as ever, but amassing titans for dd abuse won't be possible anymore.
Traeon Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.03.31 00:32:00 - [3] Quote: the point is that if the doomsday device is removed from game, then why do we need a Titan then when we have Motherships then? Jump portal generator.
Traeon Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.03.31 02:04:00 - [4] Edited by: Traeon on 31/03/2008 02:06:35 Quote: But you have to admit, there are a lot of lame mechanics that have to deal with capital ships and capital ship blobs. Now CCP can either nerf cap ships or maybe introduce a new sub-capital ship class that excels at killing capital ships. Either way, it needs to be carefully balanced so don't do any holding of the breath. Now a simple 1 DD per hr per system sounds like an easy solution, but if you built 8 Titans and subsequent officer gear and alts to fly them you'd be pretty ****ed. They tried to balance titans and moms with Hictors. Doesn't seem like it's working out, as supercaps are still produced much faster than they're being destroyed. Also, even if nerfs aren't popular they're sometimes necessary and need to be executed with an iron fist. In case of titans my reasoning is that subcapital ships, and in particular sub BS ships never required the introduction of dd's in the first place. Frigates and cruisers were not overly useful in fleet combat but still had a place. Why add a strong counter to them when the means to deal with those ships existed and worked ? It makes no sense. So why did they add dd's? It's probably meant more to make flying a titan exciting, otherwise who would enjoy flying one? I don't think they thought this through very well though. Hictors just prove the point - the supposed anti-titan ship is easily countered by simply bringing more titans, whereas bringing more Hictors won't do anything.
Traeon Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.03.31 10:18:00 - [5] Quote: But considering the cost of a Titan, if a DD only did 33% damage to all ships, I'd probably gang mod it up and leave it at a POS. I might bump it up closer to 50% so they get used more. Only means it takes 2-3 times more titans than before. So yeas it will help but the fundamental problem, dd scaling remains.
Traeon Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.03.31 13:33:00 - [6] Originally by: Kerkar Titans are fine just fail less. If you are worried bait the doomsday out of them. I was flying with bob when RA doomsdayed us. We knew it would come and as soon as the titan popped in i aligned and shock got out. In my TI fit stabber. Titans are fine please leave them like this. Also the OP says "No subcapital can tank more than two doomsdays" which im gonna just say is "******s". Been hit with Doomsdays on Sisi when in a carrier and its like oh, i lost a little shield*. Bait doomsdays, it becomes tactical. They can only use them once an hour. Or just defend cyno jammers.... so many things wrong in this post. Let me go through them one by one. - You're talking about a single titan, while the complaints are about multiple titans. - Yes you can in some cases bait the doomsday, but when there are several titans they can always leave 2-3 on standby and just use the remaining ones to dd freely. If something happens, the titans on standby can always come in and annihilate any subcapital fleet. As BoB you should know this, since your titan pilots are using dd's against almost everything now, even against 2-3 frigs, simply because they can and are not putting themselves at a real risk because there's other titans to cover them. There's no way this was intended. - You're talking about avoiding a dd by warping out. Yes you can avoid dd, but not reliably, especially in laggy situations, and only if the titan is coming for you. If the titan is defending something there's no way to avoid the dd in anything that's big enough to be a threat to said titan. - Carriers aren't subcapitals.
Traeon	Posted - 2008.03.31 15:48:00 - [7] Originally by: Kerfira So basically you think the game should be changed because something MIGHT happen? I'm not sure what you're on about, titans killing fleets is already happening and it's terrible game design in my opinion. Subcapitals had their place before titans, now they're losing more and more of it as titans get more common. Before supercapitals everything was working fine, every ship had a place, some were barely, if at all, worth bringing (newbies in cheap t1 ships), some were very valuable (dreads and carriers). Then somebody at CCP thought subcapitals should be excluded from the deciding fleet fights.
Traeon Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.03.31 16:18:00 - [8] Edited by: Traeon on 31/03/2008 16:18:55 Quote: Why? It just provide more challenges, and makes it more important that your FC knows what he's doing. Darwin at the best. Good way of determining who're the better players. This IS a competitive game after all. It is also not a "I got more numbers so I win" game (thank you very much for that, CCP). Challenge in a game is GOOD! The better players (on all levels) should win! Numbers alone never won anything even before titans. I also think it's ironic that you cite titans and their Iwin buttons as counterpart to blobbing. Pressing that button sure requires a lot of skill.
Traeon	Posted - 2008.03.31 16:28:00 - [9] Edited by: Traeon on 31/03/2008 16:29:10 Quote: Numbers alone never won anything??? lol tell that to BOB and the guys who fueled all the towers in the regions they no longer own. Did it cross your mind that perhaps there was more than just numbers involved there? Anyway, in my experience numbers alone don't win. Quote: Getting yourself into position to press that button however, means you have to have the skill to out-manoeuvre your opponent! Ask any FC or titan pilot and my guess is they'll tell you it's NOT easy! I know it's not that simple, but i'm sure it's easier than coordinating a whole fleet.
Traeon	Posted - 2008.03.31 22:14:00 - [10] DD's are not fine, never have been and were a mistake by CCP that goes against fundamental rules in EVE. It doesn't matter in the slightest who is abusing this currently because everyone will do or try doing it in the future. I'm against removing dd's because it's too late now, but it needs to be changed to comply with some eve fundamentals. What are these fundamentals? - Effectiveness dependant on sig radius. Even frigs should be able to tank a DD if they are setup to do so, sacrificing effectiveness in other areas. - "Stacking penality" or what I called diminishing returns feature, ie. space becomes "depleted" after a dd is used and for the next hour subsequent dd's do less damage. First dd does 100% damage, next one 50%, third does 25% and so forth. Untill this or something similar isn't through people will continue to amass titans because each titan becomes more valable than the previous ones due to the dd.
Traeon	Posted - 2008.03.31 23:48:00 - [11] Edited by: Traeon on 31/03/2008 23:52:50 Originally by: Dianabolic If you make them have diminishing returns you'll only make the problem worse. More and more and more will be required. And no, a godawful frigate should NOT be able to survive it. Incorrect. I'll explain... Under current mechanics, the total damage done increases linearly with each dd: 1x 70000 2x 140000 3x 210000 4x 280000 5x 350000 6x 420000 7x 490000 ... The diminishing returns mechanics as in my example decreases the usefulness of each additional dd. While dd'ing whole subcapital fleets is still possible it won't be possible more than once per system per hour (because the diminishing returns are system wide) and it's harder than before. 1x 70000 2x 105000 3x 122500 4x 131250 5x 135625 6x 137812 7x 138906 About your comments about frigs - all ships should have a way to deal with a dd, provided they know the damage type they're going up against. A fleet that is correctly tanked won't be killed outright, but still damaged heavily. That is enough to decide the outcome of a fight, asking for more just means making subcapitals less useful or even excluding them from the fight. Something like that is seriously going to hurt the game in the long run in my opinion.
Traeon Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.04.01 09:59:00 - [12] Blobs are not broken. The lag is. Otherwise the unorganized blob wouldn't be able to defeat the smaller but better organized force.
Traeon	Posted - 2008.04.01 10:08:00 - [13] Originally by: Kerfira Originally by: Traeon Blobs are not broken. The lag is. Otherwise the unorganized blob wouldn't be able to defeat the smaller but better organized force. True, but do you really think CCP can fix lag? Lag is not going to go away. Lag makes blobbing an I-Win tactic. Titans makes blobbing risky. So what is your solution? Currently titans keep blobs in check (sort of a balance of terror). If you remove them, blobs are free to run rampant! Titans aren't solving the blob issue. They're just raising it to the next level, capital blobs and a carrier with 15 fighters creates probably as much lag as 2-3 subcapital ships.
Traeon Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.04.01 11:33:00 - [14] Edited by: Traeon on 01/04/2008 11:36:08 Titans do nothing but raise the blob to capital level. Anything smaller is discouraged to fight at all because it's pointless. In simple words so even Kerfira can understand: Against multiple titans, you do not bring ANY number of subcapitals because it's pointless. I repeat, you do not bring LESS, you don't bring ANY. What youbring is capitals. Lots of them. Numbers win here, blobbing works as good as always, nodecrashing works as good as always, nothing really changed except that subcapitals went from weak to useless.
Traeon Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.04.01 12:25:00 - [15] Edited by: Traeon on 01/04/2008 12:26:09 Aside from pulling made-up statistics out of nowhere, how often or not it happens is not relevant. If it's broken it's broken. Since I am personally affected and so are people around me I'm posting here. That is all - if you think the argument is not worthy of discussion then why are you posting here?
Traeon	Posted - 2008.04.01 13:57:00 - [16] Quote: It obvious by you comment about "pressing a single key takes no skill" that you have never owned or been part of any titan action or at least only on the receiving end. The skill is in getting into a position to press the button and not getting killed after you have pressed the button. How about you post with your main before accusing others of not having fought with or against titans?
Traeon Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.04.01 14:02:00 - [17] Same for you as well Kerfira - before you accuse anyone of not being skilled enough to deal with titans, post with your main so we can see how much of an authority you really are in this field.
Traeon Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.04.01 14:11:00 - [18] Originally by: Dianabolic Originally by: Traeon About your comments about frigs - all ships should have a way to deal with a dd, provided they know the damage type they're going up against. A fleet that is correctly tanked won't be killed outright, but still damaged heavily. That is enough to decide the outcome of a fight, asking for more just means making subcapitals less useful or even excluding them from the fight. Something like that is seriously going to hurt the game in the long run in my opinion. Whilst I respect your math, I think it still reinforces my point. Reduce the damage they do and people will just bring more of them. And, a frigate has a more than ample defense against a doomsday. It's 15seconds to warp out before it goes off. And sorry, if you now say "but the lag", well that's just tough. The game has to be balanced AROUND lag, not FOR lag. Point accepted about warping out and frigates.. but on the other hand, what would be so bad about a tanked frig surviving a doomsday? Also.. if diminishing returns are added, it doesn't matter how many titans are on the field, after a few it will make no difference to the effectiveness of doomsdays.
Traeon Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.04.02 17:13:00 - [19] Edited by: Traeon on 02/04/2008 17:14:25 Edited by: Traeon on 02/04/2008 17:13:31 There is nothing wrong with the outnumbered force losing, but it would be cool if there were better means to deal with large crowds. Dd's however aren't the answer because everyone, from a 10 man corp to the biggest alliances will find themselves outnumbered depending on the situation. So the means to deal with this need to be reasonable accessible. Bombers were an attempt to provide those means I think but they still need some work, and there's only so much that one can expect from a frigate to do, so I guess that eventually we'll see heavy bombers. As far as lag abused to gain an advantage, the only correct answer lies in changing POS and sovereignty mechanics and upgrading the servers, not adding overpowered dd's. All this said I don't think there's any reason to have dd's in the game at all, as they degrade the game into capitals online and shut subcapital pilots out of a part of combat. At this point it's too late to have dd's removed but it's never too late to tackle the real problems which have nothing to do with shiptype flown in a fleet battle. Flying subcapitals wasn't overpowered and didn't such a heavy counter. Personally I'll consider dd's fine when any shiptype can survive them and when some sort of diminishign returns mechanic is added.
Traeon Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.04.02 17:58:00 - [20] Edited by: Traeon on 02/04/2008 18:00:13 DD's can used against any subcapital fleet, outnumbered or not, whether or not it's trying to crash the node or not. Just keep that in mind - everyone here seems to think it's always a t1 blob vs titan scenario.
Traeon Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.04.03 10:53:00 - [21] Originally by: Zeveron Just bring 50-60 caps and kill the titan or the pos or whatever. That's part of what many are complaining about. The game turns into capitals online. Just bring 50-60 caps. The other side will bring 50-60 caps. Then both sides will try to bring more and more caps to get an advantage, and nothing has been changed at all. Granted, the number of caps is limited at the moment so we don't see the cap blobs often yet, but if they're the future of fleet combat and the only viable shiptype left with titans in system then that's what we're heading to. This is not the EVE i want to play to be honest. Dd's are the very reason for all this.
Traeon	Posted - 2008.04.03 11:31:00 - [22] Kerfira you're naive to think that people will settle for smaller sized capital fights, as the reason why mass fleet fights exist are unchanged. The skill/isk investment is high though so joe average who can't fly a capship or afford one is simply shut out of the fight. do you seriously think that discouraging the average PvP'er from combat is a good idea?
Traeon Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.04.03 16:29:00 - [23] So I take it maralt, you are speaking from experience?
Traeon	Posted - 2008.04.03 16:56:00 - [24] Care to back that up? This thread had enough theoritcal logorrhea already.
Traeon	Posted - 2008.04.03 17:04:00 - [25] I meant backing up your first-hand experience with titans, fighting with or against them.
Traeon	Posted - 2008.04.03 17:33:00 - [26] I'm not interested in disproving your tactics, I'm interested in seeing whether or not they have any connection to reality, or are just Originally by: maralt unintelligible, theoretical and conceptual mindless drivel as you put it nicely.
Traeon	Posted - 2008.04.03 17:55:00 - [27] Edited by: Traeon on 03/04/2008 17:58:09 You'll only get as much credit for your ideas as the forum alt that you're posting with. Titans are killable yes, but you'll need a cap fleet if there are several titans in system. That's the complaint. People don't want capitals online, they want to be able to take part in fights without spending half a year to train for a ship that's useless for anything else. People are also complaining about the mere existance of the DD because subcapital fleets were not very strong to begin with and with each titan in system they become less useful.
Traeon Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.04.03 18:27:00 - [28] To be honest, I think you're just an example of an armchair general that is afraid of not being taken seriously enough on his main and chooses to use an alt instead... but you only lose credibility with that. What makes me think so? Your comments, your last one for example. How is a subcapital fleet needed to kill titans, dictors/hictors aside? It's not, they have no function that a cap couldn't fulfill better and on top of it are extremely vulnerable to DD's.
Traeon Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.04.03 18:42:00 - [29] Sure, subcapitals are needed to kill other subcapitals, but I asked about the titans specifically.
Traeon Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.04.03 18:51:00 - [30] What if other titans are the anti-support? Then subcapital fleets are pretty much pointless.
Traeon Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.04.03 19:05:00 - [31] Edited by: Traeon on 03/04/2008 19:05:44 Quote: Ask any fc if he ould willingly take supercaps/titans and caps only into battle against caps and supercaps/titans with support and you will get your answer. That's the wrong question, because more of anything certainly isn't going to hurt, even against titans. The right question is if said FC would prefer to have an all titan/carrier/dread fleet with a handful HICs/dictors and covops or a more mixed fleet with say half of the cap pilots in t2 sniper bs or HACs. For POS warfare obviously. Which fleet do you think has better chances of holding or taking a system?
Traeon	Posted - 2008.04.03 20:28:00 - [32] Edited by: Traeon on 03/04/2008 20:30:50 So you still would prefer 50 T2 sniper BS over 25 dreads and carriers? Okay Now to something else: Quote: That is the biggest game imbalance there is as it should take caps to kill super caps just as normal caps can be killed by a properly organized conventional fleet. The fact that bigger ships are less effective against smaller ones is a fundamental rule in EVE. Titans break this rule - this is where the imbalance is at and nowhere else. Every ship is also less cost effective than a group of ships one size smaller. Quote: Just bring the correct ship to do the job. Most don't like (super)caps online.
Traeon Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.04.03 20:40:00 - [33] Edited by: Traeon on 03/04/2008 20:43:13 Edited by: Traeon on 03/04/2008 20:41:14 Less effective, but the point is that anything below that is already far too vulnerable to the DD. Depends on whether or not you view carriers/dreads as one size smaller than Titans. Personally I don't. Quote: So just because you are not interested in fighting or training for capital ships and prefer hacs and recons you want the game changed so you can beat several multi multi billion isk ships with a bunch them?. Exactly. Why shouldn't HACs and Recons be able to kill a Titan? They're still going to do a pretty horrible job compared to dreads, but why shouldn't they be able to do it at all?
Traeon Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.04.03 21:00:00 - [34] Quote: If i asked a bunch of friggie pilots to warp to 3km on top of a smart bombing mega/BS would they consider me a idiot?, erm yup lolWink. Are you gonna nerf SBing megas/BS cos idiots can warp in range of them with ships that will insta pop? Actually reducing DD range to something reasonable like 30km sounds like a passable idea.
Traeon	Posted - 2008.04.04 00:22:00 - [35] Edited by: Traeon on 04/04/2008 00:22:58 Quote: I think the fix should entail something that prevents multiple (maybe more than 2 DD's) from being set off in a grid within a certain time. DD spam can be abused in ways that do not involve the titans to stay on the same grid, so that would only be a partial fix. Let me sum up and expand on my previous posts here about balancing the doomsday machine: Diminishing returns feature, ie. space in an entire system becomes "depleted" after a DD is fired and for the next hour subsequent DD's do less damage. First DD does 100% damage, next one 50%, third does 25% and so forth. This puts a stop to the DD spam while not making multiple titans completely useless. Here's a chart that shows how much damage simultaneous DD's would do: 1x 70000 2x 105000 3x 122500 4x 131250 5x 135625 6x 137812 7x 138906 A typical "doomsday proof" fleet BS has anywhere between 80 to 115k effective hp depending on the damage type received according to my EFT. That's with 4 slots dedicated to tanking. Gang skills and mods would increase this somewhat in practice. For a BS at least even several doomsdays would be tankable if the damage type received was favorable or they were specifically tanked against it. A well tanked HICtor would be able to live through several to infinite simultaneous DD's, which is just how it should have been all along in my opinion. In short titans couldn't "do the job" by themselves anymore (or at least only kill those ships particularely vulnerable to their DD damage type) and would need their own subcap fleet to capitalize on the situation, finishing off the heavily damaged battleships. Dictors would also be more important. All in all, it sounds like this change would create a more acceptable scenario for a subcapital pilot without making DD's worthless. There is one other aspect though that needs to looked at and it's about frigate/dictor pilots. Even without DD's they're almost certainly going to lose their ships in a fleet battle anyway, so I think there needs to be a mechanic that protects them against DD's. HACs/Recons are also very vulnerable. What's needed here is a new ship attribute that determines the amount of damage a DD does to a ship. This would otherwise work exactly the same way as explosion radius and ship signature radius do for missile damage calculation. Why not use signature radius though? Signature radius can simply vary too much ingame (MWD's, target painters, evasive maneuvers ganglink, halo implants and the effect of a minmatar titan).
Traeon	Posted - 2008.04.04 20:23:00 - [36] Edited by: Traeon on 04/04/2008 20:25:04 Originally by: Bozse Actually reducing DD range to something reasonable like 30km sounds like a passable idea. Not as a single sollution as it's way to big of a nerf. Yea I wasn't being completely serious and apologize for it. Making DD's ewar modules seems pretty big role change, but the concept is fine. The problem is though that people are still encouraged to mass titans if they can. What's better than a caldari titan doing 250km ECM bursts? 2 caldari titans? and what's even better 3 of them and so on... On th plus side DD'ing would really be pointless without a support fleet.
Traeon	Posted - 2008.04.05 13:08:00 - [37] Quote: 1. At 200km reduced down from 250km would force the titan to be used offensively and get into position to DDD a fleet of BS. Titans are already used offensively almost the entire time in my experience simply because no subcapital fleet will warp in on the same grid as the titan, unless it's a cynojammer scenario. In all other situations it's the titan that warps in onto the fleet, and 200km range isn't going to change much if anything at all. All that makes the current incarnation of DD's overpowered is still there.
Traeon	Posted - 2008.04.20 22:01:00 - [38] These "you're all just too stupid" and "you want to blob everything to death" rageposts are getting boring now and are not convincing anybody at this point.

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