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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
Valerien
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Posted - 2004.04.16 18:07:00 -
[1]
I just learned about insta-bookmarks today, and now I save a whole lot of time on routine docks/jumps. But it got me wondering, why isn't there an option to warp closer to an object than 15 km? Warp to and Keep at Distance should allow you to enter in a custom number, that way we don't even need insta-bookmarks
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Ruindar
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Posted - 2004.04.16 18:12:00 -
[2]
I could not agree with you more. Even if they made it based on a navigation skill, there should be some point at which you can just warp where you want to go. It is just a pain in the rear the way things are setup now. For example, I have "routes" of 23 bookmarks to and from my corps main empire station/0.0 station. They were a pain to make. They are a pain to transfer. They are just a pain in general. And, they make my autopilot almost useless.
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Ankh
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Posted - 2004.04.16 18:13:00 -
[3]
The 15km limit is set to slow people down a bit, it helps differentiate the different speed between indies, battleships and frigates.
It also improves the prospect of pvp gameplay at gates and stations, sentry guns permitting.
Instajumps make for much faster and safer travel in low security systems, many people use them for routes they frequently travel... I guess you can equate this to local knowledge that gives you an advantage over less frequent visitors to your part of space.
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Hakera
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Posted - 2004.04.16 18:19:00 -
[4]
bookmarks are a pain as much as a blessing. On one side when Im outnumbered I can use bm's to quickly escape, on the flip side, it is nigh impossible to track and catch someone using them. Even the great interceptors have trouble with someone instajumping from you.
Dumbledore - Eve-I.com |
Silverlancer
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Posted - 2004.04.16 18:22:00 -
[5]
Because the reason why instajumps aren't unbalanced is that people have to go and place them. Otherwise piracy would disappear in 0.0.
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Hakera
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Posted - 2004.04.16 18:24:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Hakera on 16/04/2004 18:24:50
 Quote:
Because the reason why instajumps aren't unbalanced is that people have to go and place them. Otherwise piracy would disappear in 0.0.
except that they can be easiy copied.
imo - bm should not be allowed to be copied, that way at least you know the person HAS been to the trouble of doing their own and earnt the time/life saver
Dumbledore - Eve-I.com |
Valerien
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Posted - 2004.04.16 18:29:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Valerien on 16/04/2004 18:35:33
Edited by: Valerien on 16/04/2004 18:31:48
I guess the best argument against it is piracy/blockades in 0.0 space, and in response to that I think a good solution could be perhaps a module you can fit on larger ships that disrupt a warp so they cannot warp right to the stargate, their warp gets disrupted within a 15km range or more of the ship powering the device, so if the ship is sitting on the stargate then an incoming warp cannot land directly on top and instantly jump.
That way, if you're flying a frig with MWD, you can still use your speed to try and breka the blockade, but with an indy forget about it!
Or make this device a hi-slot device spedific to stargates, and you have to actually target a stargate with it to disrupt warps within a range, and if you try doing this in high sec space concord will smack you
To argue the need to penalize speeds of frigs opposed to indys suggests instajumps is an exploit
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Armetheus
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Posted - 2004.04.16 18:47:00 -
[8]
If you gave people the ability to insta warp to a gate/station and jump/dock, you would pretty much kill PVP in the game, because that's where by far the vast majority of PVP takes place.
Warping in at 15km (minimum) allows people to fight in corp wars, allows players to pirate at gates in 0.0, and also creates the opportunity for ships designed for speed (e.g. Interceptors), to do what they were designed for - finding the enemy target and delaying it for larger support ships to arrive.
Just a couple of thoughts 
Forum Rules |
Viceroy
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Posted - 2004.04.16 19:04:00 -
[9]
Down with instajump bookmarks! 
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Nathan Adler
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Posted - 2004.04.16 19:11:00 -
[10]
Would it not be possible to prevent bookmarks from being made within 30km of an object, with the exception of the object itself? Somewhat like things not being allowed to be anchored within a certain radius.
Not sure if this would do more good than bad or not, but it would be a solution if instabookmarks are truly a problem.
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Viceroy
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Posted - 2004.04.16 19:13:00 -
[11]
Yea that would be great! But a certain breed of bears would start whining like there's no tomorrow.
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Phony v2
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Posted - 2004.04.16 19:14:00 -
[12]
Quote:
Down with instajump bookmarks!
 yes! They are quite annoying while pirating. If instajumping was made possible piracy would die immediatly
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Yes, in the back, the retard with the dumb question? |
dabster
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Posted - 2004.04.16 19:18:00 -
[13]
Insta-jumps may be a problem....but SS-BM's are far far worse imho.
I get the feeling it's more of a bug than a feature so do remove it somehow...ffs 
___________________________
Chicks dig Brutor's |
Viceroy
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Posted - 2004.04.16 19:19:00 -
[14]
No, SS bookmarks are ok, but instajumps arent. Without SS bookmarks, EVE would turn into a timezone blood bath where noone could escape the guys from australia.
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Valerien
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Posted - 2004.04.16 19:24:00 -
[15]
I wish there was a nice compromise here... don't wanna make it so people can go through guarded jumpgates too easily but don't like wasting so much time travelling. I swear more time is spend watchign my ship approach objects than doing anythign else in this game.
So no one would like the idea of suppressing warps within a certain radius of a stargate under blockade, but allowing instajumps otherwise?
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McWatt
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Posted - 2004.04.16 19:30:00 -
[16]
Edited by: McWatt on 16/04/2004 19:31:49
Quote:
I wish there was a nice compromise here...
compromise is easy:
1. works as it does now if there is no other person at the gate.
2. if there is another ship at the gate, you arrive at a certain distance from the gate, 6- 10 km should be ok.
so no instajump, but some advantage by using a bookmark.
anyway, i tend to agree with this one:
Quote:
Down with instajump bookmarks!
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Marcennis
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Posted - 2004.04.16 19:39:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Marcennis on 16/04/2004 19:40:40
I actually thought they were an overlooked exploit until I read this thread 
Off to make some bookmarks...can't compete with the ones who have'em. Ugh.
Down with instajump bookmarks!
Edit: Odd, I have my char pic in my Char Profile, but not here.
---
Mining & Transport - Logistics Division - Hadean Drive Yards
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dabster
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Posted - 2004.04.16 19:42:00 -
[18]
Quote:
No, SS bookmarks are ok, but instajumps arent. Without SS bookmarks, EVE would turn into a timezone blood bath where noone could escape the guys from australia.
You must mean, there would be no aussies playing in 0.0 that has ships :P
___________________________
Chicks dig Brutor's |
Wild Rho
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Posted - 2004.04.16 20:20:00 -
[19]
I agree but if insta jumps and ss were removed in fairness all players will need some chance at escaping otherwise it becomes a case of ppl warping somewhere and logging out.
For those that dont all it takes is a group of bs pilots to sit and camp every gate to have that player trapped completly and for small corps at war with big corps this gives them no real chance at all.
I have the body of a supermodel. I just can't remember where I left it... |
Nightfang
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Posted - 2004.04.16 22:33:00 -
[20]
To heck with it...
Down with instajump bookmarks! Or at least make them uncopiable!
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Einheriar Ulrich
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Posted - 2004.04.16 22:36:00 -
[21]
Remember, dont scorn the IBM¦s because when the npc overhaul is implemented, their will be npc spawns at most of the 0.0 sapce gates. sigh.
So Say I. Einheriar Ulrich of the Bloodline of Einheriar.
****Minion Of VOTF****
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Mon Palae
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Posted - 2004.04.16 22:36:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Mon Palae on 16/04/2004 22:37:40
Quote:
Yea that would be great! But a certain breed of bears would start whining like there's no tomorrow.
Doubtless some would whine loudly.
Personally I like instajumps but then I am more often hunted than hunting so that is probably to be expected. If CCP removed them I'd miss them but probably not gripe too much. My only real issues are as follows if they were removed:
1) Walk a mile in another man's shoes before judging him. I would be interested to know if you (Viceroy) have ever waddled a heavy, slow hauler at 110 m/s on a 60j roundtrip to a deep space mining spot, back and forth, for 8 hours and expect to repeat that run on a semi-regular basis? Even making your hauler 'fast' at the expense of cargo they are still miserably slow. Even 'fast' haulers are pretty darn slow (except for an MWDing Mammoth or Mk-5 which are tolerable). Boring, painful, tedious...take your pick but someone has to do it even though it really does suck.
2) Instajumping ships are not ungankable. Shuttles and frigs are pretty much untouchable, cruisers maybe maybe not but battleships and especially haulers are very catchable. My instajumping hauler has been caught in the past and popped quite easily to the pirate.
3) Do non-instajumping haulers stand any chance of getting away from a gate camp? I think the answer is a 100% never unless the pirates are asleep. You know as well as I it is totally unreasonable to expect haulers to drag around 10+ battleship escorts wherever they want to go whenever they want to go. Granted haulers are supposed to be fat, easy targets but they should have some chance at escape via skills, mods, tactics and luck. That chance need not be big...haulers flitting about like shuttles is not the answer...but the chance should exist. As it stands now the ONLY chance I have of getting a hauler past a permacamp is mustering and waiting for a battle fleet to break the blockade then hold the blockade indefinitely OR use instajumps. And as I said before I think instajumps make it even...pirates on the ball still get me.
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Nyphur
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Posted - 2004.04.17 00:00:00 -
[23]
When collision is introduced into Eve, as it simply must be eventually, instajump bookmarks will become dangerous. You will have to have a bookmark which warps you to about 2km away from the target or something rather than right on top and won't be able to just use one bookmark to get to a certain position from almost anywhere in the system - For example, I have a bookmark to a space station in Luminaire which works from almost any place in the system and puts you just in front of or inside the station, depending on where you use it. Instajump bookmarks would need to be crated from one object to another (such as one stargate to another specific stargate), rather than saying it works from most places since a misjump would result in you colliding with a space station and exploding.
You'd have to be careful using instajump bookmarks and the introduction of a little chaotic stellar drift might urge pilots to keep their bookmarks up to date in case they mis-jump into something.
I really am hoping they introduce collisions some time. I dislike this invinceability syndrome people have built up as regards warping around.
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Aegis Osiris
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Posted - 2004.04.17 04:09:00 -
[24]
Guys, the instajumps are not unbeatable.
Granted, against even a well defended gate, an instajump will get you right to jump range and let you jump immediately, doesn't matter WHAT the campers do, if they can't kill you in about 2 seconds, you get through.
BUT! The instajumps do NOT:
1) help at the jump in point! Whether you use a BM or the regular autopilot, it takes the same amount of time to align for warp after you jump in to a system. An on the ball camper has a decent chance of catching you.
2) help if the campers have a mobile warp disruptor deployed! You can't warp inside their sphere of influence, so placing at a gate leaves a 5km radius that ships drop out of warp at the edge of. Granted, deployable disruptors are currently expensive, and need to be well guarded, but the option exists, and once BP's for these get into the game (and especially once larger modules come into play) the option will be cheaper and more effective.
Instajumps do nothing for you in either of these cases, and both are available to campers now, not as a change needed at a later date. Are they foolproof? Nope, not for either side, but then again, nothing should be :)
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DarkStar251
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Posted - 2004.04.17 07:20:00 -
[25]
Instajump bookmarks do nothing to stop a properly organised blockade. why?
MOBILE WARP DISRUPTORS.
If you cant be arsed to buy one and set one up, then you cant stop the instajumpers easily. In the same way they have to put effort in (setting up instas) to bypass your blockade, you have to put it in to stop them.
I agree they shouldnt be copyable tho, let people do their own work. =)
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DarkStar251
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Posted - 2004.04.17 07:21:00 -
[26]
Ah well I guess I should read the post before mine before I think I'm all clever bringing up a new point shouldnt I? ho-hum...
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McWatt
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Posted - 2004.04.17 07:50:00 -
[27]
taking walks in other ppl shoes:
most pirates have to do tansports as well, they permanently have to pass blockades.
isn t it funny that almost all pirates (and most other PvP players as well) tend to agree that it s next to impossible to catch ppl and that boookmarks have to go?
while the rest of the community holds the secret of catching everyone, everytime?!? weird, isn t it?
don t you think that it s wrong when a prepared frigate is eassier to catch than an indy with a BM?!?
ps: mobile warp disruptors suck. ever tryied using one?
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Alowishus
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Posted - 2004.04.17 08:00:00 -
[28]
Insta jumps don't do a damn bit of good for someone jumping INTO a system. There are a ton of two gate systems in 0.0, just camp both gates in the system. Then you will catch EVERYONE going through the system regardless of the BMs. Frigs, shuttles and stuff that warp fast will still be a problem but they already are with or without the BMs.
I use insta jumps when I go through 0.0 in my indy. But believe me, they only cut the risk in half per system. Entering a system you are still vulnerable at THAT gate, usually for about 13 seconds in my case depending on orientation of my ship when I uncloak. You still **** bricks entering every system. There are no end-all-be-alls in Eve. Everything a player can do is defeatable in some way. Sometimes you just have to get creative and be smarter than your enemy/prey. I've been killed while using instajumps and I consider myself a pro blockade runner. From my perspective, things are balanced as long as my heart is still pounding.
In any other ship aside from an indy I don't need freakin insta jumps. Multiple MWD and some stabilizers will do it. Of course some people want to nerf all that **** too.
Aside from all the safety stuff they are just damn convenient. Anyone who has done 50+ jumps at 150m/s knows this.
Raven 4TW! Rank(1) SP: 243745/256000 |
Alowishus
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Posted - 2004.04.17 08:04:00 -
[29]
Quote:
don t you think that it s wrong when a prepared frigate is eassier to catch than an indy with a BM?!?
You were just at the wrong gate in the system when that indy came through, dude. Should have chose the other one, huh? To me it makes perfect sense. I am vulnerable at 50% of the gates in a two gate system and you have a chance of catching me at 50% of the gates in a two way system. Sometimes I win, sometimes you do.
Raven 4TW! Rank(1) SP: 243745/256000 |
Mephisha
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Posted - 2004.04.17 08:08:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Mephisha on 17/04/2004 08:11:40
Quote:
If you gave people the ability to insta warp to a gate/station and jump/dock, you would pretty much kill PVP in the game, because that's where by far the vast majority of PVP takes place.
Warping in at 15km (minimum) allows people to fight in corp wars, allows players to pirate at gates in 0.0, and also creates the opportunity for ships designed for speed (e.g. Interceptors), to do what they were designed for - finding the enemy target and delaying it for larger support ships to arrive.
Just a couple of thoughts
I don't agree ...
One of the ideas previously statet of being able to disrupt a warp gives much better options for PvP. AND it would give afk travelers something to think about.
Suppose you set up camp halfway between two warp points and put a warp disruptor there.
Anyone warping through your zone of control would fall out of warp (and autopilot would disengage).
This does not stop them from activating warp again so you need to warp scramble to keep them there.
This allows for more possible locations for PvP battles (and outside sentry gun range)
Just an idea.
This way the insta-BM can stay and ppl can use it to travel faster
------------------------------------------------
I have seen carebears with claws and PvP-Lords hiding in high sec space. So AWAY with all those terms. We are ALL citizens of EVE. |
Lallante
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Posted - 2004.04.17 08:17:00 -
[31]
Guys, while I dont see this as a HUGE problem as there are several solutions, once nice piece of balancing would be to make it take 30 - 50% longer to align your ship if you were warping to a BM.
Wouldnt massively increase Traveltime but would put that little bit of tradeoff in there.
It would also occur for warping to safespots: It should be quicker to warp to a bloody great moon than to a coordinate based point in nowhere land. Means you have to make tactical decisions : "do I have Time to instajump"
Lall - THE Vocal Minority -
ShinRa
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McWatt
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Posted - 2004.04.17 08:34:00 -
[32]
Quote:
Quote:
don t you think that it s wrong when a prepared frigate is eassier to catch than an indy with a BM?!?
You were just at the wrong gate in the system when that indy came through, dude. Should have chose the other one, huh? To me it makes perfect sense. I am vulnerable at 50% of the gates in a two gate system and you have a chance of catching me at 50% of the gates in a two way system. Sometimes I win, sometimes you do.
don t talk rubbish, simply answer the question, will you?
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Imperishable
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Posted - 2004.04.17 08:36:00 -
[33]
Automatic instajumping wouldn't be a problem at all if mobile warp disruptors were widely available, cheap, and easy to use.
Then carebears would be happy with fast travel
Pirates would be happy with PvP
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Alowishus
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Posted - 2004.04.17 08:39:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Alowishus on 17/04/2004 08:42:00
Edited by: Alowishus on 17/04/2004 08:40:43
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
don t you think that it s wrong when a prepared frigate is eassier to catch than an indy with a BM?!?
You were just at the wrong gate in the system when that indy came through, dude. Should have chose the other one, huh? To me it makes perfect sense. I am vulnerable at 50% of the gates in a two gate system and you have a chance of catching me at 50% of the gates in a two way system. Sometimes I win, sometimes you do.
don t talk rubbish, simply answer the question, will you?
Ok.
Yes, I think it's wrong if you are competent in any way.
Raven 4TW! Rank(1) SP: 243745/256000 |
McWatt
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Posted - 2004.04.17 11:27:00 -
[35]
Quote:
Edited by: Alowishus on 17/04/2004 08:42:00
Ok.
Yes, I think it's wrong if you are competent in any way.
you seem to be one of the players who believe that copying BMs takes "competence".
more competence than equiping a frigate to run for the gate.
you are one of the players, who believes that jump in should be the moment that decides over wether there will be combat or not, not the way to the gate.
you don t care that you make frigates (with BMs, this time)unblockable in 0.0
you don t care about making combat at gates in empire space impossible. (i ll ignore easily avoided wars and suicide attacks for the moment)
you don t care about the fact that jump in is a stupid opportunity for combat, as you have only little information about your enemy.
you ignore the fact that the few seconds it takes to aligne allow only for the use of few ship stats and modules.
(in stark contrast to nearly every stat/module being useful on the run to the gate.)
but well,...
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meowcat
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Posted - 2004.04.17 11:37:00 -
[36]
i thought the whole point of not warping closer than 15k in was because of some techincal whatnot to do with objects interfering with warping?
bookmarks were clearly designed so you could warp to custom locations, not to get around this by flying 15k past something so u can warp right next to it?!?!
~~~~)\~~~~~\o/~~~~
yeah but no but yeah but no but |
Lao Tzu
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Posted - 2004.04.17 11:53:00 -
[37]
15k warp disruptors built into every gate, that's what I want.
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Thyro
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Posted - 2004.04.17 12:16:00 -
[38]
Edited by: Thyro on 17/04/2004 12:37:06
Edited by: Thyro on 17/04/2004 12:34:24
Quote:
If you gave people the ability to insta warp to a gate/station and jump/dock, you would pretty much kill PVP in the game, because that's where by far the vast majority of PVP takes place.
Warping in at 15km (minimum) allows people to fight in corp wars, allows players to pirate at gates in 0.0, and also creates the opportunity for ships designed for speed (e.g. Interceptors), to do what they were designed for - finding the enemy target and delaying it for larger support ships to arrive.
Just a couple of thoughts
PVP on ABs... create modules to interrupt while in warp (and why not!!) ... PVP in gates ... why not to create something to block a gate.
CCP always has been pro PVP and today exist more Pirate corps with better results than other corps that prefer not to engage PVP.
And pls correct me if I'm wrong... Why all deep space has just a few jump gates to it... why?
Right ... lets promote PVP ... lets cut 70% of the 0.4 space to leave under alliances/pirates control... so more PVP... no wonder why so many people are in secure systems! Simply because they don't have a chance... and the only chance that they have is to be poded/killed.
Buy the way what kind of wierd PVP you are trying to promote?
What is the 1st ship to go even if its covered in a convoy? It's an indy isn't it!
No matter the number of BS/cruisers covering a single indy... the indy goes in 2 seconds (if not in less than 1 second)
Is this PVP that you are trying to defend... nerfing the instra jump and making 15km an obligation!
If you would like to promote PVP then you have 1st of all to create areas for that and also give change for people to engage/or not in PVP... but since that isn't a option (because what CCP and many GMS see is only PVP), then don't blame people that got a workaround, but blame ur selfs because u are not able to provide a balanced environment not only for who wants to do PVP and who doesn't want.
Its useless to create convoys with cruisers/BS to protect indys... because in your PVP idea... the fist ship to go will be always an indy... so 15Km barrier its perty useless... and should only be used if you would like to see your own pod and your onw corpse...
Right for most of you PVP people... Yeah! Gates PVP its good... sure just for lazzy pirates that are un capable to go to ABs and search their own prey... PVP in gates... well sorry... its a nosence since CCP is unable to give a chance for slow and unprotect ships to survive... is this PVP that you want to protect and claim as correct for this game?
Balance the game, create other forms of PVP BUT BALANCED.
The balance also should include the ECCM modules (which are prety useless)... why a BS should go for PVP if its can't lock... and to avoid a lock would need to use a full hand of slots just to put the crap ECCM modules, removing the weapons and defence modules... yeah some may say that is nice... sure its nice... but only shows how crap is PVP.
However its the wierd PVP that you are trying to promote!
Bookmarks are usefull the 15km barrier and claiming that is to promove PVP its a pure nosence!
As I mentioned, create something that stops people in the midle of warp (Between stations and gates, or gates to gates) and that will solve your problem and CCP, GMs and PVPers would be happy because you have created a correct environment for PVP.
In my opinion PVP should be fought in space... and not near stations/gates!
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0seeker0
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Posted - 2004.04.17 12:28:00 -
[39]
You know them static warp disrupter jobbies that are coming out in the next patch? eh voila!
Also, would be good if a pirate could stick a warp disrupter inbeetween two gates..... (maybe mines that only lasted for like 10 minuits?) i was sadly dissapointed that i didnt feel the shudder of a warp gone badly, as i used to in elite 1. Also, jovians could be like thargons, abducting ships from warp, or at least challenging them.
ok, well, that was probably wildly off topic.
seeker.
Character "Widescreen" is a scammer; beware.
Check my bio for a list of known scammers.
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Bonnie Parker
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Posted - 2004.04.17 12:45:00 -
[40]
Totally agree with Aegis Osiris.
You people crying about insta-jumps should stfu and LEARN how to blockade/camp properly. There are TWO viable ways to catch people who use insta-jumps bm's. Granted, they don't 100% guarantee a kill, but nor should they.
If you can't be bothered to figure them out or implement them, then thats your problem.
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Mephisha
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Posted - 2004.04.17 17:14:00 -
[41]
I agree with tyro and like to add that indy's should be bigger in size compared to BS, and they should have massive shields.
It should take some massive anti-cap-ship-torpedo to shoot it down (maybe more) Frigates can only carry 1, and Cruisers and BS maybe only 2. targeting should be slow and require skill.
Escorting ships should be able to shoot, jam or even block the incoming torp (dying in the process)
Now that would make for some great fleet battles.
------------------------------------------------
I have seen carebears with claws and PvP-Lords hiding in high sec space. So AWAY with all those terms. We are ALL citizens of EVE. |
Alowishus
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Posted - 2004.04.17 17:33:00 -
[42]
Quote:
Quote:
Edited by: Alowishus on 17/04/2004 08:42:00
Ok.
Yes, I think it's wrong if you are competent in any way.
you seem to be one of the players who believe that copying BMs takes "competence".
more competence than equiping a frigate to run for the gate.
you are one of the players, who believes that jump in should be the moment that decides over wether there will be combat or not, not the way to the gate.
you don t care that you make frigates (with BMs, this time)unblockable in 0.0
you don t care about making combat at gates in empire space impossible. (i ll ignore easily avoided wars and suicide attacks for the moment)
you don t care about the fact that jump in is a stupid opportunity for combat, as you have only little information about your enemy.
you ignore the fact that the few seconds it takes to aligne allow only for the use of few ship stats and modules.
(in stark contrast to nearly every stat/module being useful on the run to the gate.)
but well,...
You do realize you're talking about a freakin indy, right? I love people like you, you get up on your podium of "combat and pvp" but what you are talking about is blowing away an indy that has no deffense and no escape. Blowing away haulers is important. Don't get me wrong. I'm not bitter about losing some ships and I'd likely blow away your damn hauler too.
But without BMs a hauler has ZERO chance of escape in a camped system. ZERO. All BMs do is give you a 50% chance of escape. INSTEAD OF ZERO PERCENT CHANCE. That's perfectly balanced.
Without BMs at jump in I die, and at warp out I die. With them I only die at jump in. That sill gives you about 30 chances to kill me on a single trip to 0.0. THIRTY CHANCES.
Why should you be able to kill EVERY SINGLE indy that comes through a system? You shouldn't, as that is very unbalanced.
Now quit your whining because a few haulers slip through.
P.S. Who cares if copying bookmarks is hard or easy? You think killing a hauler is hard? Please.
Raven 4TW! Rank(1) SP: 243745/256000 |
McWatt
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Posted - 2004.04.17 17:55:00 -
[43]
Edited by: McWatt on 17/04/2004 17:59:42
Quote:
Quote:
you seem to be one of the players who believe that copying BMs takes "competence".
more competence than equiping a frigate to run for the gate.
you are one of the players, who believes that jump in should be the moment that decides over wether there will be combat or not, not the way to the gate.
you don t care that you make frigates (with BMs, this time)unblockable in 0.0
you don t care about making combat at gates in empire space impossible. (i ll ignore easily avoided wars and suicide attacks for the moment)
you don t care about the fact that jump in is a stupid opportunity for combat, as you have only little information about your enemy.
you ignore the fact that the few seconds it takes to aligne allow only for the use of few ship stats and modules.
(in stark contrast to nearly every stat/module being useful on the run to the gate.)
but well,...
You do realize you're talking about a freakin indy, right? I love people like you, you get up on your podium of "combat and pvp" but what you are talking about is blowing away an indy that has no deffense and no escape. Blowing away haulers is important. Don't get me wrong. I'm not bitter about losing some ships and I'd likely blow away your damn hauler too.
But without BMs a hauler has ZERO chance of escape in a camped system. ZERO. All BMs do is give you a 50% chance of escape. INSTEAD OF ZERO PERCENT CHANCE. That's perfectly balanced.
Without BMs at jump in I die, and at warp out I die. With them I only die at jump in. That sill gives you about 30 chances to kill me on a single trip to 0.0. THIRTY CHANCES.
Why should you be able to kill EVERY SINGLE indy that comes through a system? You shouldn't, as that is very unbalanced.
Now quit your whining because a few haulers slip through.
P.S. Who cares if copying bookmarks is hard or easy? You think killing a hauler is hard? Please.
i fear i m repeating myself, but please stop talking rubbish and give me your stand on the things that i said.
of course a hauler should die in a blockade it s a ******* transport ship!
PvP btw starts when haulers can t simply break through and someone has to force a passage, don t you think so?
you were the one talking about the competence needed to use BMs. bravo, huge achievement.
ever wasted a thought on what happens when other ships use them?
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You people crying about insta-jumps should stfu and LEARN how to blockade/camp properly. There are TWO viable ways to catch people who use insta-jumps bm's.
apart from the bad sideeffects i stated above both, jump in catching and warp disruptors have the drawback of needing more ships.
--> bigger blop --> less traffic
--> more pirates --> less chance to fight back for the typical traveller.
think. post.
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Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2004.04.17 17:59:00 -
[44]
Don't warp disruptor fields pull ships out of warp?
So even if they have insta-jump bm's they drop out of warp at the edge of the disruption field.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Lao Tzu
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Posted - 2004.04.17 18:02:00 -
[45]
Quote:
Don't warp disruptor fields pull ships out of warp?
Yes, but they will mainly help the big alliances shut space down even more, while everyone else has to make huge sets of bookmarks to keep up with the competion.
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Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2004.04.17 18:06:00 -
[46]
heh
My point was, though, that if people don't like insta-jumps bm's, CCP have given them a tool to nullify their usage.
I'm sure it isn't too difficult to place them after a few test warps to judge distance/direction and a set of three would do. That's an outlay of 75M isk for a chance to stop someone warping and give you a decent chance of webifying them and holding them up.
75M isn't that much if you place them carefully AND make sure you don't camp the same system for too long so that you catch people unprepared. You'd make your isk back and more.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Alowishus
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Posted - 2004.04.17 18:07:00 -
[47]
Quote:
i fear i m repeating myself, but please stop talking rubbish and give me your stand on the things that i said.
you were the one talking about the competence needed to use BMs. bravo, huge achievement.
I never said it took competence to use or make a bookmark. Do you think it takes competence to kill an indy?
I fear I'm repeating myself, but please stop whining. That is my stance.
Raven 4TW! Rank(1) SP: 243745/256000 |
Alowishus
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Posted - 2004.04.17 18:13:00 -
[48]
Quote:
My point was, though, that if people don't like insta-jumps bm's, CCP have given them a tool to nullify their usage.
Yep they work. I wasn't using BMs at the time but the disruptor pulled me out of warp 50k from the gate rather than 15.
Of course I guess it's easier to ask for a nerf of something they can't possibly nerf (due to the implications it will have on other uses of bookmarks) than like actually try to put forth a little effort.
What this comes down to is that a few haulers will slip past your basic gate camper, alone in his Blackbird, and now he is complaining here. Get some friends, get some organization, get some disruptors and gank every freaking ship that comes through that two gate system.
Until you do it right, don't whine about it.
Raven 4TW! Rank(1) SP: 243745/256000 |
McWatt
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Posted - 2004.04.17 18:13:00 -
[49]
Edited by: McWatt on 17/04/2004 18:14:21
Quote:
I never said it took competence to use or make a bookmark. Do you think it takes competence to kill an indy?
I fear I'm repeating myself, but please stop whining. That is my stance.
1. thats how i understood your first answer: "Yes, I think it's wrong if you are competent in any way."
sorry if i missunderstood this.
2. it takes competence to defend a good gate long enough to catch some indys. yes.
3. who s whining?
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Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2004.04.17 18:28:00 -
[50]
Quote:
Yep they work. I wasn't using BMs at the time but the disruptor pulled me out of warp 50k from the gate rather than 15.
There are different sizes of disruptor with different ranges..
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Mon Palae
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Posted - 2004.04.17 19:16:00 -
[51]
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isn t it funny that almost all pirates (and most other PvP players as well) tend to agree that it s next to impossible to catch ppl and that boookmarks have to go?
while the rest of the community holds the secret of catching everyone, everytime?!? weird, isn t it?
Seems to me it is other pirates keeping the 'secret' from you because I sure as hell have been caught and had my ship blown-up more than once while using instajumps.
If your point is you should be able to kill 100% of the ships that pass you I can't agree. Sometimes I get away, sometimes they get me. Seems balanced from my viewpoint.
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McWatt
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Posted - 2004.04.17 19:51:00 -
[52]
Edited by: McWatt on 17/04/2004 19:53:25
Quote:
Quote:
isn t it funny that almost all pirates (and most other PvP players as well) tend to agree that it s next to impossible to catch ppl and that boookmarks have to go?
while the rest of the community holds the secret of catching everyone, everytime?!? weird, isn t it?
Seems to me it is other pirates keeping the 'secret' from you because I sure as hell have been caught and had my ship blown-up more than once while using instajumps.
here s viceroy from space invaders from page 1:
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Down with instajump bookmarks!
and Nightfang from The Legitimate Businessmans Club(page 1 as well)
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To heck with it...
Down with instajump bookmarks! Or at least make them uncopiable!
i m sorry to say so, but it s not just me who hasn t got the secret...
that you get a lucky catch now and then (mostly the stupid, btw) doesn t proof a thing, does it?
Quote:
If your point is you should be able to kill 100% of the ships that pass you I can't agree. Sometimes I get away, sometimes they get me. Seems balanced from my viewpoint.
no one is talking about kills. but we should definetly move the chance of fight occurance from 5% up a bit, if two ships meet at a gate and one wishes to have combat.
calling it balanced the way it is sounds rather dark humoured to me.
Quote:
Yep they work. I wasn't using BMs at the time but the disruptor pulled me out of warp 50k from the gate rather than 15.
Of course I guess it's easier to ask for a nerf of something they can't possibly nerf (due to the implications it will have on other uses of bookmarks) than like actually try to put forth a little effort.
1. i m not asking for a nerf but for a bugfix. BMs should work like they were intended.
2. 100m investment in space. how many ships will you want to have to protect it?
again, how big will the blob be? how many ppl will jump in? how many "standart travellers will be able to fight back?
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What this comes down to is that a few haulers will slip past your basic gate camper, alone in his Blackbird, and now he is complaining here. Get some friends, get some organization, get some disruptors and gank every freaking ship that comes through that two gate system.
doesn t that lonely blackbird suddenly sound like the nicer camp?
Quote:
Until you do it right, don't whine about it.
who s whining?
mobile warp disruptors should be much cheaper. and much eassier to get. it should be possible to conquer them, would give a long needed boost to pirate hunters.
still unanswered questions:
how to stop someone using BMs in low sec?
how to stop a bookmark using frigate in 0.0?
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Lao Tzu
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Posted - 2004.04.17 20:50:00 -
[53]
Quote:
Of course I guess it's easier to ask for a nerf of something they can't possibly nerf (due to the implications it will have on other uses of bookmarks) than like actually try to put forth a little effort.
It wouldn't be hard to fix, just a 15k exclustion field around the gate, it can be done with warp disruptor, it can be done with gates.
Quote:
My point was, though, that if people don't like insta-jumps bm's, CCP have given them a tool to nullify their usage.
It's not all about gate camping, warp disruptors only nullify their use in a very limited set of situations, and so people are basicly forced to use instajumps to compete.
All sorts of things get effected by speeded up travel, ie. agent mission bonus times are balanced based on average time taken, so when people use instajumps the times are forced down making it much harder, if not impossible, to get the rewards without making bookmarks.
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