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Roxanna Kell
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Posted - 2008.04.03 16:26:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Roxanna Kell on 03/04/2008 16:35:12
I am a one account man atm, not always have been, So i decided to start up a trading character for the same of making money without ratting, not much capital to start with, but willing to give it a go.
So, I started the character as gallante, nice to see that i got 900k sp from start, 20 times more than what i got when i created Roxanna Kell. So i Started training some trading skills, and noticed that it was awfully slow for lvl 2 lvl 3 rank 1 skills, even though i picked quite a high charisma.
Soon i realised that it is not possible to get this into a descent standard anytime soon without training the learning skills. that’s were Tripoli’s guide came in handy, ty you mate.
After a month, I am still not done with the learning skills, in fact, all i managed to get is advanced memory, and Intel to lvl 4, also basic precep & will to 4.
OH FRAK IT, Cancel Subscription of the alt account. Waste of 19$ to activate it.
To the new players, I just felt your pain and therefore will fully support the removal of learning skills from the game completely, I do not see why any veteran would complain, as they will receive All the attributes such as you, and maybe even get the isk for skill cost, and an isk compensation for the time wasted(or sp allocated else were).
There is no need to have the learning skills, as anyone who ends up liking eve will want to train them, actually, he will have no choice but to change them.
The gaps between noobs and veteran have closed up a long time ago, it was imminent.
And it still is imminent for even more noobs to do so as well, hindering them with learning skills will only loose subscriptions, and not achieve anything to benefit anyone on the long run.
I know this has been mentioned a lot, but its never enogh.
If you are agaisnt removing learning skills, don't bother posting. seriously, just go and ***.
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 Quote:
There is no Dishonor in winning fools, so do it any way you can.
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Estel Arador
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Posted - 2008.04.03 16:42:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Roxanna Kell
If you are agaisnt removing learning skills, don't bother posting. seriously, just go and ***.
Now that makes for an interesting discussion, if only those who agree with you are allowed to post...
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Skills Explained |
Riho
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Posted - 2008.04.03 16:46:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Riho on 03/04/2008 16:47:20
you cant make a argument and then tell one side to shut the **** up :P
i started a new character recently... so i get your pain.... it took me 2 weeks to get int and memory base to 4 and adv to 4. i allso trained cybernetics 1 to get +3 implants what helped insanely much :)
atm my character cant to anything.. but now that those 2 atributes are done i can train industry allready :)
EDIT: oh yea.. my argument... im not against the removal of points if all characters get + 10 atributes from the go tbh :)
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MY VIEW ARE MY OWN, I DON'T REPRESENT MY CORPORATIONS VIEWS HERE... stop mailing me.. plz
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Roxanna Kell
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Posted - 2008.04.03 16:49:00 -
[4]
And the troll worked, yay. Grow up, get over it, of course you re allowed to psot if you disagree, since when typing what i did ever worked?
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Quote:
There is no Dishonor in winning fools, so do it any way you can.
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Wet Ferret
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Posted - 2008.04.03 16:49:00 -
[5]
The only ones against it are those who train up learning skills on alts and sell the characters. 
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Dirk Magnum
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Posted - 2008.04.03 16:51:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Dirk Magnum on 03/04/2008 16:54:39
So you felt the pain of taking the time to get the learning skills, which is why you want those skills removed. Makes sense to... me? No.
(edit: whoops troll post. nvm my first paragraph)
But troll post or not, CCP will never reallocate SPs. I doubt they even have the programming written to do it. They won't compensate for lost training time either, and say as much in their policies. Also, that month of training you spent on those skills will more than make up for itself in the long run. If anything, the extra days or weeks it takes to train other skills to 4 or 5 will be what makes people want to give up on their subscriptions.
The only way I'd support the removal of learning skills is if implants that went up to around +12 or so were added.
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Redd Lenses
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Posted - 2008.04.03 16:51:00 -
[7]
I'm OK with it as long as I get the ISK back for the 4 sets of +5s I have... and 5.5m worth of SP to put wherever I want for the full set of lvl 5 skills I've trained.
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Tarminic
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Posted - 2008.04.03 16:54:00 -
[8]
I'd be fine with the removal of learning skills and just giving everyone +8 or +9 to their attributes. And no SP reimbursement, that would be a massive pain in the ass and easily abused.
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Tarminic - 34 Million SP in Forum Warfare
Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.79.5 (Updated 4/2) |
Dirk Magnum
Spearhead Endeavors
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Posted - 2008.04.03 16:58:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Dirk Magnum on 03/04/2008 16:59:06
Originally by: Tarminic
I'd be fine with the removal of learning skills and just giving everyone +8 or +9 to their attributes.
Better implants, not across the board free stat boosts. Change up the price on plants as well. Make +5's cost as much as +2's or so do now, and make the +10's and such cost closer to around 100 mil.
edit: I don't support the removal of learning skills, but I could get over it if implant enhancement ranges were increased.
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Wet Ferret
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2008.04.03 17:00:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Dirk Magnum
Edited by: Dirk Magnum on 03/04/2008 16:56:02
(edit: troll post recognized, but I'll leave my original response in here anyway)
CCP will never reallocate SPs. I doubt they even have the programming written to do it. They won't compensate for lost training time either, and say as much in their policies. Also, that month of training you spent on those skills will more than make up for itself in the long run. If anything, the extra days or weeks it takes to train other skills to 4 or 5 without the aid of learning skills will be what makes people want to give up on their subscriptions.
The only way I'd support the removal of learning skills is if implants that went up to around +12 or so were added.
What? Weren't you around when they boosted new character SPs? They gave everyone who made character before that an SP boost to compensate.
Quote:
I'm OK with it as long as I get the ISK back for the 4 sets of +5s I have... and 5.5m worth of SP to put wherever I want for the full set of lvl 5 skills I've trained.
Why? Nobody is saying to remove attributes. Implants will still be useful.
Agreed on the SP reallocation, though. I don't know how they would do it but obviously they would need to do something about them...
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Avon
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.04.03 17:02:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Avon on 03/04/2008 17:02:22
So, you wanted to build a trader and decided to spend loads of time learning the wrong learning skills.
And that means the system is broken?
Riiiiiiiight.
Why didn't you just train up the learning skills that will actually help with the things you need to train to be a trader?
I mean, trade alts are about the easiest to create - there is a whole character creation path dedicated to them.
Eve-Online: The Text Adventure |
Cipher7
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2008.04.03 17:02:00 -
[12]
I am trained to 5/4 in all learnings and support removing them.
It is a complete artificial waste of time.
All chars should start with the same base attributes of 3 3 3 3 3 and be given X number of points to spend on their starting attributes.
There is absolutely NO reason to see so many damn Achura and Khanid all over the place that is stupid and it discourages roleplaying.
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Akita T
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Posted - 2008.04.03 17:07:00 -
[13]
If anything, I'd rather support the idea of either a brand new fourth school for all races (not so hot idea), or even better still, a THIRD choice in all of the existing schools.
This new "subset" of choices would focus almost exclusively in "teaching how to learn", and the vast majority of skillpoints would be allocated into learnings.
SAMPLE COMMON SKILLSET:
L5 learning
L4 all 5 basic attribute boosters
L3 all 5 advanced attribute boosters
L3 science
L1 cybernetics
L1 gunnery
L1 racial turret
L1 spaceship command
L1 racial frigate
Now, depending on school, you could boost some of the skills for slight differentiation.
Under Industry, specialisation "Cybernetician" you could have L5 Science, L4 Cybernetics, and L4 advanced int/mem
Under Bussiness, specialisation "Public Relations" you would get L5 Social, L4 advanced int/wil/cha
Under Military, specialisation "Tactical" you would get L5 Leadership, L4 advanced per/wil/cha
You might add some "local flavor" (racial-dependant) for slight diversity up to the desired starter SP count.
1|2|3|4|5. |
Wu Jiun
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Posted - 2008.04.03 17:10:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Tarminic
I'd be fine with the removal of learning skills and just giving everyone +8 or +9 to their attributes. And no SP reimbursement, that would be a massive pain in the ass and easily abused.
I am sure the people who just finished training all the learning skills will love this.
"Hey new guy you just sat 2 months in hangar training the all mighty learning skills - we'll reset you to 900k for the lulz and won't reimburse you either because then the pain would be in our ass instead of yours, k?"
New players have already got a lot of compensation. They get 900k from scratch, they have higher base attributes and they don't need to train the basics to lvl5 or can choose to do so once they've trained up the advanced ones to 4 which is a major timesaver again. Many people who've made alts now find their alts overtaking them in sp although they are much younger. Finally there is no need to go through the learnings at first. People do this because everyone tells them to. There is nothing wrong with learning the basic skills to 3 first and then train for a frig or cruiser to actually be able to play. Then extend your learning skills further as needed. The overall amount of sp lost will be minimal as long as you do not wait too long.
As for older players. Not everyone has 60m sp and couldn't care less. There are lots of peeps with say 6-15m sp for which this would nothing but a major slap in the face.
Personally i am not strictly against removing learning skills but not without sp reimbursement. Some players have invested considerably more than others (i know peeps who have all learnings to 5) and they would lose some months of training more then others.
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Vitrael
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Posted - 2008.04.03 17:10:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Akita T
If anything, I'd rather support the idea of either a brand new fourth school for all races (not so hot idea), or even better still, a THIRD choice in all of the existing schools.
This new "subset" of choices would focus almost exclusively in "teaching how to learn", and the vast majority of skillpoints would be allocated into learnings.
SAMPLE COMMON SKILLSET:
L5 learning
L4 all 5 basic attribute boosters
L3 all 5 advanced attribute boosters
L3 science
L1 cybernetics
L1 gunnery
L1 racial turret
L1 spaceship command
L1 racial frigate
Now, depending on school, you could boost some of the skills for slight differentiation.
Under Industry, specialisation "Cybernetician" you could have L5 Science, L4 Cybernetics, and L4 advanced int/mem
Under Bussiness, specialisation "Public Relations" you would get L5 Social, L4 advanced int/wil/cha
Under Military, specialisation "Tactical" you would get L5 Leadership, L4 advanced per/wil/cha
You might add some "local flavor" (racial-dependant) for slight diversity up to the desired starter SP count.
And why would anyone ever pick another specialization (besides ignorance) again?
http://www.jericho-fraction.netPlease visit your user settings to re-enable images.[/url] |
Visko Altertunity
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Posted - 2008.04.03 17:11:00 -
[16]
I got my friend to play with me.. but after about a week he released all he'd be doing is flying his crappy frigate and making no progress for the first month and a half if he wanted to be serious so he decided this game isn't worth his time. It's true, starting in this game is just the worst experience for a new player. Because of the huge depedancy on Learning skills to put it simply. All learning skills are is around 2 months of paid subscription with no activity. It would be like creating a character in WoW and saying "for the first 2 months you're not allowed to level past 10, have fun!"
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Dirk Magnum
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Posted - 2008.04.03 17:13:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Wet Ferret
What? Weren't you around when they boosted new character SPs? They gave everyone who made character before that an SP boost to compensate.
Interesting if true. How did everyone else get the SP boost applied though? I never woke up one day and noticed that all of my skills were suddenly partially trained to the next level, and I was certainly never given an option to simply add a certain number of SPs to any particular skill.
Nevertheless, an SP boost is different than SP reallocation. When they added starting SPs for new characters they didn't take away SPs from anyone else.
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Billy Sastard
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Posted - 2008.04.03 17:13:00 -
[18]
I am suprised by this post actually...
One would think an experienced player would know about EVEMon and its capability to provide a skill plan that will add the optimal learning skills needed to meet whatever your set goal is... It is as simple as plugging the skills you want into the plan, then clicking the little 'suggestion' link down at the bottom which will add whatever learning skills would actually benefit your training regime.
-=^=-
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Akita T
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Posted - 2008.04.03 17:16:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Vitrael
Originally by: Akita T
learnings-biased starter pack
And why would anyone ever pick another specialization (besides ignorance) again?
Well, for an alt you don't plan on training much (if at all), the others would make more sense.
For a real newcomer, it's still a long way in getting the needed skills to do anything useful (and gain ISK).
But for alts you do plan on training up properly, or for newcomers whining about the long time it takes to "do the learnings", yeah, there would be absolutely no other choice but one of the new specialisations.
The funny thing is, nobody but yourself is able to see the specialisation... everybody else sees just the school.
You know, it's like eatink your cake, but still having it.
Appeases most of the "kill learnings" whiners, leaves the learnings in the game, while still providing you with the current skillpack options in case you want them.
1|2|3|4|5. |
Wu Jiun
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.04.03 17:18:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Dirk Magnum
Originally by: Wet Ferret
What? Weren't you around when they boosted new character SPs? They gave everyone who made character before that an SP boost to compensate.
Interesting if true. How did everyone else get the SP boost applied though?
Not at all. I think it was rmr when they buffed the starting attributes, starting sp and lowered the requirements for the learnings. There was no kind of compensation for older players which was especially stupid for people who started playing right before that patch. Rolling up a new char was arguably the best they could do at that point.
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Dirk Magnum
Spearhead Endeavors
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Posted - 2008.04.03 17:20:00 -
[21]
That's what I figured, although I don't remember hearing anyone talking about the boosting of new player stats until Rev I, which is also when I recall that the learning skill requirements for the advanced skills was reduced from 5 to 4. I could be wrong on both counts though.
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Zifrian
Gallente Federal Bank
Interstellar Corporate Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.03 17:22:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Zifrian on 03/04/2008 17:23:56
I started playing maybe 6 months ago (took a 4 month break though :p) but that's what I did. Then as I got friends to come into the game to play, I had to explain the whole learning system to them. Needless to say, they were immediately turned off because they couldn't really do anything new after they spent so much time on learning skills. So they flew around in a frigate for the free trial and had half their learning skills done. Exciting! 
As long as they refund that training time fairly (differences between people like me and veterans) and give everyone +4/5 to all attributes, I'd be fine with it.
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Miss Kingston
Avignon Associates Inc.
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Posted - 2008.04.03 17:24:00 -
[23]
I for one completely aggree, the removal of learning skills from the game is something CCP must do, a lot of new players simple leave the game after training up their learning skills out of boredom, anyone who thinks it's a good idea to have them in the game needs their head examined.
As Tarminic said, I don't even care if I get back those sp, although I definetly would prefer to have at least some of the sp reimbursed if they got rid of all learning skills and gave everyone +10 on all attributes, I definetly don't want isk reimbursement.
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Roxanna Kell
FinFleet
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.04.03 17:25:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Avon
stuff
Did the thread say, omg omg, starting a trading alt is so hard? no, sooooooooo. ahem ahem.
Quote:
There is no Dishonor in winning fools, so do it any way you can.
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Lord Rue
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Posted - 2008.04.03 17:27:00 -
[25]
Quote:
I am suprised by this post actually...
One would think an experienced player would know about EVEMon and its capability to provide a skill plan that will add the optimal learning skills needed to meet whatever your set goal is... It is as simple as plugging the skills you want into the plan, then clicking the little 'suggestion' link down at the bottom which will add whatever learning skills would actually benefit your training regime.
[/thread]
Devil bunnies! I snort the nose! Lucifer! Banana! |
Cire XIII
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Posted - 2008.04.03 17:29:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Cire XIII on 03/04/2008 17:33:29
Edited by: Cire XIII on 03/04/2008 17:29:36
Learning skills are great. They allow players to catch up to older players who were not dedicated to progressing their character enough to train up their learning skills. True you cannot catch up to everyone, but learning skills give a new player hope. I started a few months ago, gutted out the learning skills, and am catching up to characters weeks ahead of me and I still gaining.
Learning skills are optional, but necessary if you are going to take Eve seriously. As a new player, I would hate to see them gone. If someone trains them all to V they should have an edge against those who did not think they would play for more than 3 years.
In the time it took me to get all my learning skills up to 5 and the adv up to 4, not including charisma I was able to familiarize myself with the Eve interface, and read up on guides. All mmo's have some degree of grinding before you can enjoy the fruits of your labor (unless you rp). Eve has more, and play time and luck are not the only factors.
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Benco97
Exchangable Properties
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Posted - 2008.04.03 17:36:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Benco97 on 03/04/2008 17:41:59
Good gods...
People... "I can't do anything for blah blah months because my learning skills aren't high enough!!" this is just ridiculous! What ships/modules have the learning skills as requirements?
Telling new players to just train up their learning skills is TERRIBLE advice, let them train whatever the **** they want, SP isn't a race, you don't win anything for having a higher intelligence than someone else, it's just you people being impatient.
I'm all for the removal of learning skills, hell, I'm all for the removal of IMPLANTS that boost those stats too
*edit* nobody CARES if you "catch up" to someone with higher SP, it's not about Catching up to them. Just get the SP you want and enjoy instead of worrying that your 5.4SP/Sec is 0.002SP/Sec slower than someone else's.
Originally by: Kirjava
This man speaks the truth, when he farts we count the length in seconds and make squillions buying winning lottery tickets.
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Megan Maynard
Out of Order
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Posted - 2008.04.03 17:39:00 -
[28]
The total lack of anything to do withen the first 2 months of playing will kill EVE.
Learning skills need to go. Implants need to stay. Character creation will make your role in the eve universe more defined by your attributes you get when you start the game.
A simple skill point compensation is all that would be needed for this to work, and then my friends will WANT to start playing the game.
Miz Stelth Bomerz iz the ****nit.
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Zifrian
Gallente Federal Bank
Interstellar Corporate Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.03 17:39:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Zifrian on 03/04/2008 17:39:42
To get a new character to all learning skills to level 4 (presence 3) takes 22days 8 hours. This is without implants. Getting +3's and the skills to use is basically a wash in terms of training time spent and you gain about 2-3 days if you start with them.
If this is "necessary" as some have said, and I would agree with to do well in the long run, then how do you get new players on a free trial to have fun and remain interested in the game, all while not making them believe they are behind without training them?
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Billy Sastard
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Posted - 2008.04.03 17:50:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Zifrian
Edited by: Zifrian on 03/04/2008 17:39:42
To get a new character to all learning skills to level 4 (presence 3) takes 22days 8 hours. This is without implants. Getting +3's and the skills to use is basically a wash in terms of training time spent and you gain about 2-3 days if you start with them.
If this is "necessary" as some have said, and I would agree with to do well in the long run, then how do you get new players on a free trial to have fun and remain interested in the game, all while not making them believe they are behind without training them?
Because is is not necessary to train all of them up at once? Use EVEMon to plan things out. for a noob on a trial account, you know you are just going to be using frigs, maybe cruisers. Figure out what ship/setup you want(again EVEMon helps loads here), plug in the skills needed, let evemon add suggestions. You will find that to get into the kind of ships a trial player is going to use, the learning skills required to be beneficial are actually not really that bad.
The main problem I see here is that there is a large number of players who, for some reason, believe that all learning skills must be trained to 4 before doing anything else in game. This is patently false, just do some playing around with EVEMon with a freshly created character and a 14 day timeframe in mind and you can see for yourself.
-=^=-
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Aakron
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Posted - 2008.04.03 17:56:00 -
[31]
The learning skills keep less dedicated people away, the game's already populated by highsec farmers with no interest outside of "single player eve". They could double the learning skills for all I care
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Zifrian
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Posted - 2008.04.03 18:00:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Billy Sastard
Originally by: Zifrian
Edited by: Zifrian on 03/04/2008 17:39:42
To get a new character to all learning skills to level 4 (presence 3) takes 22days 8 hours. This is without implants. Getting +3's and the skills to use is basically a wash in terms of training time spent and you gain about 2-3 days if you start with them.
If this is "necessary" as some have said, and I would agree with to do well in the long run, then how do you get new players on a free trial to have fun and remain interested in the game, all while not making them believe they are behind without training them?
Because is is not necessary to train all of them up at once? Use EVEMon to plan things out. for a noob on a trial account, you know you are just going to be using frigs, maybe cruisers. Figure out what ship/setup you want(again EVEMon helps loads here), plug in the skills needed, let evemon add suggestions. You will find that to get into the kind of ships a trial player is going to use, the learning skills required to be beneficial are actually not really that bad.
The main problem I see here is that there is a large number of players who, for some reason, believe that all learning skills must be trained to 4 before doing anything else in game. This is patently false, just do some playing around with EVEMon with a freshly created character and a 14 day timeframe in mind and you can see for yourself.
Then why have learning skills at all? You know as well as anyone who's played around in EVEmon that if you don't train learning skills at some early point, you will not be as competitive as you could be over the long run. So basically, they are necessary for everyone that wants to be competitive in whatever role they want to play in the game. So it's ok for a newbie to not train them but when should they since they basically have to?
They really make no sense honestly. I guess one *could* argue they allow a player to fill in spots that their race has compared to others but this is largely moot when you take them all to 4 or 5 anyway.
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Ryoji Tanakama
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Posted - 2008.04.03 18:03:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Roxanna Kell
Edited by: Roxanna Kell on 03/04/2008 16:49:47
I am a one account man atm, not always have been, So i decided to start up a trading character for the same of making money without ratting, not much capital to start with, but willing to give it a go.
So, I started the character as gallante, nice to see that i got 900k sp from start, 20 times more than what i got when i created Roxanna Kell. So i Started training some trading skills, and noticed that it was awfully slow for lvl 2 lvl 3 rank 1 skills, even though i picked quite a high charisma.
Soon i realised that it is not possible to get this into a descent standard anytime soon without training the learning skills. thatĘs were TripoliĘs guide came in handy, ty you mate.
After a month, I am still not done with the learning skills, in fact, all i managed to get is advanced memory, and Intel to lvl 4, also basic precep & will to 4.
OH FRAK IT, Cancel Subscription of the alt account. Waste of 19$ to activate it.
To the new players, I just felt your pain and therefore will fully support the removal of learning skills from the game completely, I do not see why any veteran would complain, as they will receive All the attributes such as you, and maybe even get the isk for skill cost, and an isk compensation for the time wasted(or sp allocated else were).
There is no need to have the learning skills, as anyone who ends up liking eve will want to train them, actually, he will have no choice but to change them.
The gaps between noobs and veteran have closed up a long time ago, it was imminent.
And it still is imminent for even more noobs to do so as well, hindering them with learning skills will only loose subscriptions, and not achieve anything to benefit anyone on the long run.
I know this has been mentioned a lot, but its never enogh.
There was an obvious troll here, and idiots fell for it, oh well.
You see the trick you're missing, and the way all us old timers did it the first time round is that you dont train them all in one stint, you spread the training time out and do them now and again rather than all at once.
Simple.
~Ryoji Tanakama
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Daikoku Fleet Shipyards |
Billy Sastard
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Posted - 2008.04.03 18:18:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Zifrian
Then why have learning skills at all? You know as well as anyone who's played around in EVEmon that if you don't train learning skills at some early point, you will not be as competitive as you could be over the long run. So basically, they are necessary for everyone that wants to be competitive in whatever role they want to play in the game. So it's ok for a newbie to not train them but when should they since they basically have to?
They really make no sense honestly. I guess one *could* argue they allow a player to fill in spots that their race has compared to others but this is largely moot when you take them all to 4 or 5 anyway.
Where did I say that you don't need to train the learning skills at all? I did not. I said that you can get by just fine by training whatever learning skills will help you for your immediate goals at the time. Spread them out is what I am suggesting. In addition to this, there is no 'competitive' difference in combat wether you have the learning skills all maxed out or not. Please let me know how being able to get those t2 heavy drones 4 days faster that some other person who did not train the extra levels of learning makes ANY difference in combat? It does not, the ONLY thing learning skills effects is your patience! This phenomenon of people convincing noobs to drop everything and get their learning skills to 5-4 before anything else is downright pitiful IMO. What is a few hours/days? I blame these other mmo's which let you grind to max level in a week for this thought process. YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE ABLE TO TRAIN EVERYTHING AS FAST AS POSSIBLE IN ORDER TO BE COMPETITIVE IN THIS GAME. Yea it is nice to learn skills faster, but it makes no difference on the field of combat. Once you have that ship you are the same as the guy that trained it 12 days faster than you.
-=^=-
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Kaimon ValDreth
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Posted - 2008.04.03 18:20:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Kaimon ValDreth on 03/04/2008 18:21:43
Ive been around for almost 3 years so I'm no vet by any means. However, I'm no new player either. I was cool when they started giving new players more SP from the start. But removal of learning is dumb without compensation.
I spend the first 2 months training learning skills yes the basics to 5 before you could go to advanced at 4. So i know how bad it sucks. BUT THIS IS EVE SUCK IT UP!!! If you can't deal with slow progression or training learning skills for month or 2 its not the game for you anyway.
This is EVE the game where you can literally do whatever you want to make others lives hell and its encouraged. Where you can ruin a players last couple months of game play and its completely cool.
Its been said time and time again EVE is the most harsh, bitter, and toughest MMO of all time and thats why we play it. If you can't get past the learning skills you probably wont make it anyway.
Besides training learning skills is not a requirement. You can play without them. No one is forcing you. If you want to "INVEST" (which is all learning skills are is an investment) some time into being more efficient at learning then there is a price, financial and monetary.
On the flip side--CCP has stated that they made a mistake with the learning skills and perhaps are trying to figure out a solution. If its necessary to remove them by all means I support whatever they think is best in that situation. However There are a few things that need to happen:
1. Refund SP spent in learning (make a button like the LP store, that worked well, allowing people to reapply their SP toward the skill/s of their choosing)
2. Refund the ISK spend on the skills (more of a no brainer)
3. Make sure that the resulting stats are not lower than previous stats before removal assuming that a set stat will be given. If its a pool of stats to reassign then make sure the total value of points is not lower than previous. (no one wants to train slower, only a fair trade keeping current training speed would suffice.
Kaimon V.
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Cmdr Sy
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Posted - 2008.04.03 18:36:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Cmdr Sy on 03/04/2008 18:37:11
EVE rewards patience and punishes impatience.
The learning skill grind is essential to weed out at an early stage those who don't have what it takes to cut it. It is the initiation ritual that doesn't just say "Yes, Cruiser 5 takes a while to train", it shows you straight up and makes you feel that passage of time. That way people can make a better informed decision about whether they want to carry on playing before they spend months lagging the rest of us out only to leave disappointed the moment they hit a high-rank L5 skill.
As you say, it sucked for all of us. It sucked for all the friends we got into this game and persuaded to stay. But at least we got here and do not have to spend every day sharing resources with another 35,000 impatient and disappointed people.
EVE CCG Trinity Booster
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Ecky X
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Posted - 2008.04.03 18:37:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Kaimon ValDreth
1. Refund SP spent in learning (make a button like the LP store, that worked well, allowing people to reapply their SP toward the skill/s of their choosing)
2. Refund the ISK spend on the skills (more of a no brainer)
3. Make sure that the resulting stats are not lower than previous stats before removal assuming that a set stat will be given. If its a pool of stats to reassign then make sure the total value of points is not lower than previous. (no one wants to train slower, only a fair trade keeping current training speed would suffice.
Kaimon V.
Blah blah blah
1. CCP doesn't owe you any SP. You trained learning skills, and had the benefit of them since you trained them. If CCP were to suddenly take away 4 million SP in learning from you... you wouldn't lose a thing!
2. Isk refund isn't a bad idea, but it's pennies to anyone who has been playing a while.
3. I agree with this. Giving everyone +8 or +10 to all stats doesn't seem like a bad idea.
The only people who would be really upset, are those who just finished training 2 months of learning skills consecutively... and no new player does that; only the alts of vets.
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Dyaven
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Posted - 2008.04.03 18:41:00 -
[38]
Edited by: Dyaven on 03/04/2008 18:46:16
My character is about a month old now, and I've been training the learning skills when I have nothing that I really want to train that will end at a time I can set a skill. For some reason, the learning skills always seem to finish at good times for me. However, here is my point: I have been sparingly training the learning skills in my month of play I have almost all except Charisma at 4/3 now, and I feel like I'm progressing just fine. Sure, if I had been training nothing but learning skills I'd almost have them 5/4 by now, but I also probably would have quit by now. Instead, I'm doing fine and I'm almost ready to hop into my first Battlecruiser. I was able to get into a Cruiser my 3rd day and did just fine. Learning skills are helpful and should be trained, but they should not be trained at the highest priority.
----
In the beginning the Universe was created.
This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move. - The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, Douglas Addams |
Kaimon ValDreth
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Posted - 2008.04.03 18:43:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Kaimon ValDreth on 03/04/2008 18:44:22
Originally by: Ecky X
1. CCP doesn't owe you any SP. You trained learning skills, and had the benefit of them since you trained them. If CCP were to suddenly take away 4 million SP in learning from you... you wouldn't lose a thing!
The only people who would be really upset, are those who just finished training 2 months of learning skills consecutively... and no new player does that; only the alts of vets.
Well you forget about the dozens of people who have had the learning skills for a little bit but havent recovered 2 months worth of faster training than if they hadn't. Not sure on exact calculations but I think it takes somewhere like a year to actually recover and break even on the time you spent training learning skills to where you actually gained something.
So yeah I think they should refund the SP as its only fair.
Like dyaven said above... You can play and progress without them they are merely an investment. If CCP wants to cash out on it at least refund what we have put in.
Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. |
Avon
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Posted - 2008.04.03 18:43:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Avon on 03/04/2008 18:44:16
Originally by: Roxanna Kell
Originally by: Avon
stuff
Did the thread say, omg omg, starting a trading alt is so hard? no, sooooooooo. ahem ahem.
No, it said "I had a vision for my character and then stupidly spent ages training a bunch of unrelated learning skills, rather than specifically targeting my training in an optimised manner. Because of this it is clear to me that the learning skills are broken, as it isn't conceivable that I am just plain dumb and can't even manage to train an alt efficiently".
I might have paraphrased you slightly.
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Eve-Online: The Text Adventure |
Roxanna Kell
FinFleet
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.04.03 18:53:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Avon
Edited by: Avon on 03/04/2008 18:44:16
Originally by: Roxanna Kell
Originally by: Avon
stuff
Did the thread say, omg omg, starting a trading alt is so hard? no, sooooooooo. ahem ahem.
TROLL.
And i fixed your even better, see you in the eve meet.
Quote:
There is no Dishonor in winning fools, so do it any way you can.
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Dirk Magnum
Spearhead Endeavors
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Posted - 2008.04.03 19:05:00 -
[42]
Thread is full of whin. If only we could get some Goons in here too.
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Vivitari
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2008.04.03 19:13:00 -
[43]
I'm sorry, Vivitari can't be assed to write a real response due to time of night or lazyness. Thus here is his automated response of his feelings towards this topic:
[ ] IBDS
[ ] IBTL
[ ] Can I have your stuff?
[ ] Go back to WoW.
[ ] Hello Kitty >>> That way.
[ ] It's a Templar, an Amarr fighter.
[ ] STFU
[ ] Post with your main
[ ] .
[ ] Signed!
[ ] WINS TEH TOPIC!
[ ] Wins EVE
[ ] /approve
[ ] Bump
[X] /fail
[ ] (Kitten thumbnail)
[ ] No one cares
[ ] Needs new Hampsters
[X] Flame
[X] Nerf OP
[ ] SPARTA!
_
EVE: The Vivitari Story - A Blog by Nobody in EVE Online
Patch Days |
Jenny Spitfire
LoneStar Industries
Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2008.04.03 19:17:00 -
[44]
I also aglee with the fuerst poaster. Learnting skillz is bad for neue kommers and gam. Kell have my supprot.
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Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria!
Recruitment
-KB- |
Roxanna Kell
FinFleet
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.04.03 19:53:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Vivitari
Hellow, i am a ferrel.
Quote:
There is no Dishonor in winning fools, so do it any way you can.
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Dirk Magnum
Spearhead Endeavors
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Posted - 2008.04.03 19:54:00 -
[46]
We usually call them furries but ferrel works to get the point across as well.
I sure hope I know what I'm talking about.
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Zifrian
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Posted - 2008.04.03 20:02:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Billy Sastard
It does not, the ONLY thing learning skills effects is your patience!
This is true. But it leads to the question of WHY are they in the game? What positives come from learning skills? What good reasons are there for them?
All I can think of is
- ISK sink so for skill books (taking money out of the enconomy
- People have to play longer
These are actually positives for CCP, not the players. I'd love to hear one positive reason we have learning skills in the game other than "we can train faster".
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Vivitari
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2008.04.03 21:18:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Zifrian
These are actually positives for CCP, not the players. I'd love to hear one positive reason we have learning skills in the game other than "we can train faster".
We can get into lategame faster.
_
EVE: The Vivitari Story - A Blog by Nobody in EVE Online
Patch Days |
Djinn Phluxx
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Posted - 2008.04.04 01:24:00 -
[49]
My gf just started a character. She has a smattering of gunnery skills, now, and can use standard missiles (all she needs for heavy missiles is the skillbook). Small artillery specialization, destroyers for two races are available to her, social skills (social III, negotiation and one other to II)...a few days worth of training in addition to the skills she actually started with. She also has only 8 days left before getting to 4/3 in all learning skills and a 4 in learning. She still has 6 days left on the trial account.
Given that she's 8 days away from reaching her goal AND has other skills for about three days to give her an easier (and more financially rewarding) time in missions, I really don't think the learning skills have as much of an impact as some people seem to think, especially as it hasn't kept her from enjoying anything the game has to offer that she feels like trying.
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Annaphera
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Posted - 2008.04.04 02:46:00 -
[50]
The only problem with the learning skills is that some people insist on telling new players to train them to absurdly high levels before attempting anything else. As has been mentioned, EveMon will actually suggest learning skills to compliment your goals. However, there is one other feature that deserves mention. If you set all the skills you MUST HAVE to get into your first decent ship to priority one, accept EveMon's suggestions, then hit the "sort" button, you will see a check box marked "move learning skills to front of plan". Clear it, then sort, and will you look at that...
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Priest Amarr
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2008.04.04 03:47:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Priest Amarr on 04/04/2008 03:47:48
Dear Good People of Eve who wants to change learning skills,
I hope you realize that , what you are describing can not be solved removing learning skills. Your target is not learning skills, you do want to speed up skill training. Even if you do remove learning skills you will not notice big differences as you are wishing. If you paid attention learning skills are helping you save 10 minutes here , 15 minutes there when you first start to train your character. If you are not spending your entire day watching your skills going up, the difference it creates in a day is not highly noticeable. As these minutes , and then when it comes to higher rank skills hours, adds up yes it does create a difference in the long run. A difference that is usually wasted so easily by all players since everybody loses some training time due to its difficulty synchronizing your life with skill change times. Who can honestly say they never lost a minute in all these months or years? With or without learning skills , the difference you are seeking will not come. Even if you start game with all extra attribute points you were supposed to gain by learning skills, there will not be big differences in your first month.
So instead of focusing this argument on learning skills, if you directly name your wish, debating it can be easier. What you want can only be achieved by boosting skill point gain faster than it was ever before. Only then when you create a trading alt, you can see fast results in your first month or two.
New players should do their own calculations, and double check every advice they get instead of blindly following other people. They can train their learning skills step by step. One should always ask himself, if training X skill takes one hour, and achieving next level of Y learning skill will take 5 days, what is the point of waiting five days for reducing that X skills training time from one hour to 50 minutes?
A thinking mind can find the answer by himself...
May Blessings Be With You
Priest Amarr
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Megan Maynard
Out of Order
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Posted - 2008.04.04 03:54:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Djinn Phluxx
My gf just started a character. She has a smattering of gunnery skills, now, and can use standard missiles (all she needs for heavy missiles is the skillbook). Small artillery specialization, destroyers for two races are available to her, social skills (social III, negotiation and one other to II)...a few days worth of training in addition to the skills she actually started with. She also has only 8 days left before getting to 4/3 in all learning skills and a 4 in learning. She still has 6 days left on the trial account.
Given that she's 8 days away from reaching her goal AND has other skills for about three days to give her an easier (and more financially rewarding) time in missions, I really don't think the learning skills have as much of an impact as some people seem to think, especially as it hasn't kept her from enjoying anything the game has to offer that she feels like trying.
Marry her, RIGHT NOW.
Miz Stelth Bomerz iz the ****nit.
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Selena Rayne
Obsidian Conclave
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Posted - 2008.04.04 04:17:00 -
[53]
You can't remove learning skills now, there is no way CCP can do that and keep things balanced. If new players continue to leave early and can't be bothered to train the skills(like the rest of us already did) then i am sure CCP will just give the starting SP another boost like they did when they raised it to 800k. I think you should be more worried about older players attitudes towards new players and how they are treated as to why they leave the game early...
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Karlemgne
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Posted - 2008.04.04 09:03:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Wet Ferret
The only ones against it are those who train up learning skills on alts and sell the characters.
Or guys like me with three accounts who spent the time to train all of learning skills on all of the accounts.
Tbh, learning skills should have never been put into the game. Now that they're here though, I say **** no to removing them, UNLESS I get every single ******* one of those points allocated elsewhere.
-Karlemgne
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Crimzin
The M Corporation
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Posted - 2008.04.04 11:13:00 -
[55]
well the more i read about this the more i get confussed, im just training the learning skills that saves time on what ever i want,
BS im doing atm and clarity to lvl 2 saves a full day so off course im going to train that, but sitting at a station for 2 months doing nothing but learning skills? comon serious?, i mean dang some of those skills im guessing arent even for combat so wtf is the point?(for combat pilots obvisley and vice a versa for miners) and worse telling a new guy to sit at station for 2 months and do the same....
btw i understand everyone dosent use evemon or it wasent always around, so bottem line will i be gimped if i dont do learning skills?
LOL clocks went forward ccp like 2 days ago
Safe Space Not So Safe |
Rawr Cristina
Naqam
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Posted - 2008.04.04 11:14:00 -
[56]
It's interesting that the people suggesting the removal of learning skills also seem to think they're entitled to a +10 attribute buff. If CCP wanted you to be training that fast without some effort, they'd have done it by now.
I mean, they could just remove learning skills and not touch the attributes at all. Everyone would have sucky stats that way, but newbies would never have to train learning skills (which is the issue here, after all)- so it'd be fair, right? 
...
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Gigi Barbagrigia
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Posted - 2008.04.04 11:27:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Cmdr Sy
Edited by: Cmdr Sy on 03/04/2008 18:37:11
EVE rewards patience and punishes impatience.
The learning skill grind is essential to weed out at an early stage those who don't have what it takes to cut it. It is the initiation ritual that doesn't just say "Yes, Cruiser 5 takes a while to train", it shows you straight up and makes you feel that passage of time. That way people can make a better informed decision about whether they want to carry on playing before they spend months lagging the rest of us out only to leave disappointed the moment they hit a high-rank L5 skill.
As you say, it sucked for all of us. It sucked for all the friends we got into this game and persuaded to stay. But at least we got here and do not have to spend every day sharing resources with another 35,000 impatient and disappointed people.
This. More or less.
Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. |
Akita T
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Posted - 2008.04.04 17:41:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Megan Maynard
Originally by: Djinn Phluxx
My gf just started a character. She has a smattering of gunnery skills, now, and can use standard missiles (all she needs for heavy missiles is the skillbook). Small artillery specialization, destroyers for two races are available to her, social skills (social III, negotiation and one other to II)...a few days worth of training in addition to the skills she actually started with. She also has only 8 days left before getting to 4/3 in all learning skills and a 4 in learning. She still has 6 days left on the trial account.
Given that she's 8 days away from reaching her goal AND has other skills for about three days to give her an easier (and more financially rewarding) time in missions, I really don't think the learning skills have as much of an impact as some people seem to think, especially as it hasn't kept her from enjoying anything the game has to offer that she feels like trying.
Marry her, RIGHT NOW.
I fully agree with Megan... marry her ASAP, she's a keeper 
1|2|3|4|5. |
Smantha Dering
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Posted - 2008.04.04 18:02:00 -
[59]
once again. To the OP, NO. Too bad if you don't want to train them. If you don't want to train them fine. The point of skill training is to try to acquire an edge over a competing player. I have my edge, being that I've trained my character to learn skills faster than some other players, meaning I will be a more skill capable pilot faster. The guy who trained all interceptor skills to V to gain an edge over my relevant skills to III and IV shouldn't have to deal with noobs automatically being given interceptors and all relevant skills set to V.
People! Stop creating "remove learning skillz plz" threads.
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