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So, i created a new charachter.

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Roxanna Kell	Posted - 2008.04.03 16:26:00 - [1] Edited by: Roxanna Kell on 03/04/2008 16:35:12 I am a one account man atm, not always have been, So i decided to start up a trading character for the same of making money without ratting, not much capital to start with, but willing to give it a go. So, I started the character as gallante, nice to see that i got 900k sp from start, 20 times more than what i got when i created Roxanna Kell. So i Started training some trading skills, and noticed that it was awfully slow for lvl 2 lvl 3 rank 1 skills, even though i picked quite a high charisma. Soon i realised that it is not possible to get this into a descent standard anytime soon without training the learning skills. that’s were Tripoli’s guide came in handy, ty you mate. After a month, I am still not done with the learning skills, in fact, all i managed to get is advanced memory, and Intel to lvl 4, also basic precep & will to 4. OH FRAK IT, Cancel Subscription of the alt account. Waste of 19$ to activate it. To the new players, I just felt your pain and therefore will fully support the removal of learning skills from the game completely, I do not see why any veteran would complain, as they will receive All the attributes such as you, and maybe even get the isk for skill cost, and an isk compensation for the time wasted(or sp allocated else were). There is no need to have the learning skills, as anyone who ends up liking eve will want to train them, actually, he will have no choice but to change them. The gaps between noobs and veteran have closed up a long time ago, it was imminent. And it still is imminent for even more noobs to do so as well, hindering them with learning skills will only loose subscriptions, and not achieve anything to benefit anyone on the long run. I know this has been mentioned a lot, but its never enogh. If you are agaisnt removing learning skills, don't bother posting. seriously, just go and .* Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. Quote: There is no Dishonor in winning fools, so do it any way you can.
Estel Arador	Posted - 2008.04.03 16:42:00 - [2] Originally by: Roxanna Kell If you are agaisnt removing learning skills, don't bother posting. seriously, just go and .* Now that makes for an interesting discussion, if only those who agree with you are allowed to post... Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. Skills Explained
Riho	Posted - 2008.04.03 16:46:00 - [3] Edited by: Riho on 03/04/2008 16:47:20 you cant make a argument and then tell one side to shut the **** up :P i started a new character recently... so i get your pain.... it took me 2 weeks to get int and memory base to 4 and adv to 4. i allso trained cybernetics 1 to get +3 implants what helped insanely much :) atm my character cant to anything.. but now that those 2 atributes are done i can train industry allready :) EDIT: oh yea.. my argument... im not against the removal of points if all characters get + 10 atributes from the go tbh :) ---------------------------------- MY VIEW ARE MY OWN, I DON'T REPRESENT MY CORPORATIONS VIEWS HERE... stop mailing me.. plz
Roxanna Kell	Posted - 2008.04.03 16:49:00 - [4] And the troll worked, yay. Grow up, get over it, of course you re allowed to psot if you disagree, since when typing what i did ever worked? Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. Quote: There is no Dishonor in winning fools, so do it any way you can.
Wet Ferret	Posted - 2008.04.03 16:49:00 - [5] The only ones against it are those who train up learning skills on alts and sell the characters. Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Dirk Magnum	Posted - 2008.04.03 16:51:00 - [6] Edited by: Dirk Magnum on 03/04/2008 16:54:39 So you felt the pain of taking the time to get the learning skills, which is why you want those skills removed. Makes sense to... me? No. (edit: whoops troll post. nvm my first paragraph) But troll post or not, CCP will never reallocate SPs. I doubt they even have the programming written to do it. They won't compensate for lost training time either, and say as much in their policies. Also, that month of training you spent on those skills will more than make up for itself in the long run. If anything, the extra days or weeks it takes to train other skills to 4 or 5 will be what makes people want to give up on their subscriptions. The only way I'd support the removal of learning skills is if implants that went up to around +12 or so were added. Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Redd Lenses	Posted - 2008.04.03 16:51:00 - [7] I'm OK with it as long as I get the ISK back for the 4 sets of +5s I have... and 5.5m worth of SP to put wherever I want for the full set of lvl 5 skills I've trained.
Tarminic	Posted - 2008.04.03 16:54:00 - [8] I'd be fine with the removal of learning skills and just giving everyone +8 or +9 to their attributes. And no SP reimbursement, that would be a massive pain in the ass and easily abused. ---------------- Tarminic - 34 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.79.5 (Updated 4/2)
Dirk Magnum Spearhead Endeavors	Posted - 2008.04.03 16:58:00 - [9] Edited by: Dirk Magnum on 03/04/2008 16:59:06 Originally by: Tarminic I'd be fine with the removal of learning skills and just giving everyone +8 or +9 to their attributes. Better implants, not across the board free stat boosts. Change up the price on plants as well. Make +5's cost as much as +2's or so do now, and make the +10's and such cost closer to around 100 mil. edit: I don't support the removal of learning skills, but I could get over it if implant enhancement ranges were increased.
Wet Ferret Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.04.03 17:00:00 - [10] Originally by: Dirk Magnum Edited by: Dirk Magnum on 03/04/2008 16:56:02 (edit: troll post recognized, but I'll leave my original response in here anyway) CCP will never reallocate SPs. I doubt they even have the programming written to do it. They won't compensate for lost training time either, and say as much in their policies. Also, that month of training you spent on those skills will more than make up for itself in the long run. If anything, the extra days or weeks it takes to train other skills to 4 or 5 without the aid of learning skills will be what makes people want to give up on their subscriptions. The only way I'd support the removal of learning skills is if implants that went up to around +12 or so were added. What? Weren't you around when they boosted new character SPs? They gave everyone who made character before that an SP boost to compensate. Quote: I'm OK with it as long as I get the ISK back for the 4 sets of +5s I have... and 5.5m worth of SP to put wherever I want for the full set of lvl 5 skills I've trained. Why? Nobody is saying to remove attributes. Implants will still be useful. Agreed on the SP reallocation, though. I don't know how they would do it but obviously they would need to do something about them...
Avon Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.04.03 17:02:00 - [11] Edited by: Avon on 03/04/2008 17:02:22 So, you wanted to build a trader and decided to spend loads of time learning the wrong learning skills. And that means the system is broken? Riiiiiiiight. Why didn't you just train up the learning skills that will actually help with the things you need to train to be a trader? I mean, trade alts are about the easiest to create - there is a whole character creation path dedicated to them. Eve-Online: The Text Adventure
Cipher7 Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.04.03 17:02:00 - [12] I am trained to 5/4 in all learnings and support removing them. It is a complete artificial waste of time. All chars should start with the same base attributes of 3 3 3 3 3 and be given X number of points to spend on their starting attributes. There is absolutely NO reason to see so many damn Achura and Khanid all over the place that is stupid and it discourages roleplaying.
Akita T	Posted - 2008.04.03 17:07:00 - [13] If anything, I'd rather support the idea of either a brand new fourth school for all races (not so hot idea), or even better still, a THIRD choice in all of the existing schools. This new "subset" of choices would focus almost exclusively in "teaching how to learn", and the vast majority of skillpoints would be allocated into learnings. SAMPLE COMMON SKILLSET: L5 learning L4 all 5 basic attribute boosters L3 all 5 advanced attribute boosters L3 science L1 cybernetics L1 gunnery L1 racial turret L1 spaceship command L1 racial frigate Now, depending on school, you could boost some of the skills for slight differentiation. Under Industry, specialisation "Cybernetician" you could have L5 Science, L4 Cybernetics, and L4 advanced int/mem Under Bussiness, specialisation "Public Relations" you would get L5 Social, L4 advanced int/wil/cha Under Military, specialisation "Tactical" you would get L5 Leadership, L4 advanced per/wil/cha You might add some "local flavor" (racial-dependant) for slight diversity up to the desired starter SP count. 1\|2\|3\|4\|5.
Wu Jiun	Posted - 2008.04.03 17:10:00 - [14] Originally by: Tarminic I'd be fine with the removal of learning skills and just giving everyone +8 or +9 to their attributes. And no SP reimbursement, that would be a massive pain in the ass and easily abused. I am sure the people who just finished training all the learning skills will love this. "Hey new guy you just sat 2 months in hangar training the all mighty learning skills - we'll reset you to 900k for the lulz and won't reimburse you either because then the pain would be in our ass instead of yours, k?" New players have already got a lot of compensation. They get 900k from scratch, they have higher base attributes and they don't need to train the basics to lvl5 or can choose to do so once they've trained up the advanced ones to 4 which is a major timesaver again. Many people who've made alts now find their alts overtaking them in sp although they are much younger. Finally there is no need to go through the learnings at first. People do this because everyone tells them to. There is nothing wrong with learning the basic skills to 3 first and then train for a frig or cruiser to actually be able to play. Then extend your learning skills further as needed. The overall amount of sp lost will be minimal as long as you do not wait too long. As for older players. Not everyone has 60m sp and couldn't care less. There are lots of peeps with say 6-15m sp for which this would nothing but a major slap in the face. Personally i am not strictly against removing learning skills but not without sp reimbursement. Some players have invested considerably more than others (i know peeps who have all learnings to 5) and they would lose some months of training more then others.
Vitrael	Posted - 2008.04.03 17:10:00 - [15] Originally by: Akita T If anything, I'd rather support the idea of either a brand new fourth school for all races (not so hot idea), or even better still, a THIRD choice in all of the existing schools. This new "subset" of choices would focus almost exclusively in "teaching how to learn", and the vast majority of skillpoints would be allocated into learnings. SAMPLE COMMON SKILLSET: L5 learning L4 all 5 basic attribute boosters L3 all 5 advanced attribute boosters L3 science L1 cybernetics L1 gunnery L1 racial turret L1 spaceship command L1 racial frigate Now, depending on school, you could boost some of the skills for slight differentiation. Under Industry, specialisation "Cybernetician" you could have L5 Science, L4 Cybernetics, and L4 advanced int/mem Under Bussiness, specialisation "Public Relations" you would get L5 Social, L4 advanced int/wil/cha Under Military, specialisation "Tactical" you would get L5 Leadership, L4 advanced per/wil/cha You might add some "local flavor" (racial-dependant) for slight diversity up to the desired starter SP count. And why would anyone ever pick another specialization (besides ignorance) again? http://www.jericho-fraction.netPlease visit your user settings to re-enable images.[/url]
Visko Altertunity	Posted - 2008.04.03 17:11:00 - [16] I got my friend to play with me.. but after about a week he released all he'd be doing is flying his crappy frigate and making no progress for the first month and a half if he wanted to be serious so he decided this game isn't worth his time. It's true, starting in this game is just the worst experience for a new player. Because of the huge depedancy on Learning skills to put it simply. All learning skills are is around 2 months of paid subscription with no activity. It would be like creating a character in WoW and saying "for the first 2 months you're not allowed to level past 10, have fun!"
Dirk Magnum	Posted - 2008.04.03 17:13:00 - [17] Originally by: Wet Ferret What? Weren't you around when they boosted new character SPs? They gave everyone who made character before that an SP boost to compensate. Interesting if true. How did everyone else get the SP boost applied though? I never woke up one day and noticed that all of my skills were suddenly partially trained to the next level, and I was certainly never given an option to simply add a certain number of SPs to any particular skill. Nevertheless, an SP boost is different than SP reallocation. When they added starting SPs for new characters they didn't take away SPs from anyone else. Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Billy Sastard	Posted - 2008.04.03 17:13:00 - [18] I am suprised by this post actually... One would think an experienced player would know about EVEMon and its capability to provide a skill plan that will add the optimal learning skills needed to meet whatever your set goal is... It is as simple as plugging the skills you want into the plan, then clicking the little 'suggestion' link down at the bottom which will add whatever learning skills would actually benefit your training regime. -=^=- Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Akita T	Posted - 2008.04.03 17:16:00 - [19] Originally by: Vitrael Originally by: Akita T learnings-biased starter pack And why would anyone ever pick another specialization (besides ignorance) again? Well, for an alt you don't plan on training much (if at all), the others would make more sense. For a real newcomer, it's still a long way in getting the needed skills to do anything useful (and gain ISK). But for alts you do plan on training up properly, or for newcomers whining about the long time it takes to "do the learnings", yeah, there would be absolutely no other choice but one of the new specialisations. The funny thing is, nobody but yourself is able to see the specialisation... everybody else sees just the school. You know, it's like eatink your cake, but still having it. Appeases most of the "kill learnings" whiners, leaves the learnings in the game, while still providing you with the current skillpack options in case you want them. 1\|2\|3\|4\|5.
Wu Jiun State War Academy	Posted - 2008.04.03 17:18:00 - [20] Originally by: Dirk Magnum Originally by: Wet Ferret What? Weren't you around when they boosted new character SPs? They gave everyone who made character before that an SP boost to compensate. Interesting if true. How did everyone else get the SP boost applied though? Not at all. I think it was rmr when they buffed the starting attributes, starting sp and lowered the requirements for the learnings. There was no kind of compensation for older players which was especially stupid for people who started playing right before that patch. Rolling up a new char was arguably the best they could do at that point.
Dirk Magnum Spearhead Endeavors	Posted - 2008.04.03 17:20:00 - [21] That's what I figured, although I don't remember hearing anyone talking about the boosting of new player stats until Rev I, which is also when I recall that the learning skill requirements for the advanced skills was reduced from 5 to 4. I could be wrong on both counts though.
Zifrian Gallente Federal Bank Interstellar Corporate Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.03 17:22:00 - [22] Edited by: Zifrian on 03/04/2008 17:23:56 I started playing maybe 6 months ago (took a 4 month break though :p) but that's what I did. Then as I got friends to come into the game to play, I had to explain the whole learning system to them. Needless to say, they were immediately turned off because they couldn't really do anything new after they spent so much time on learning skills. So they flew around in a frigate for the free trial and had half their learning skills done. Exciting! As long as they refund that training time fairly (differences between people like me and veterans) and give everyone +4/5 to all attributes, I'd be fine with it.
Miss Kingston Avignon Associates Inc.	Posted - 2008.04.03 17:24:00 - [23] I for one completely aggree, the removal of learning skills from the game is something CCP must do, a lot of new players simple leave the game after training up their learning skills out of boredom, anyone who thinks it's a good idea to have them in the game needs their head examined. As Tarminic said, I don't even care if I get back those sp, although I definetly would prefer to have at least some of the sp reimbursed if they got rid of all learning skills and gave everyone +10 on all attributes, I definetly don't want isk reimbursement.
Roxanna Kell FinFleet Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.04.03 17:25:00 - [24] Originally by: Avon stuff Did the thread say, omg omg, starting a trading alt is so hard? no, sooooooooo. ahem ahem. Quote: There is no Dishonor in winning fools, so do it any way you can.
Lord Rue	Posted - 2008.04.03 17:27:00 - [25] Quote: I am suprised by this post actually... One would think an experienced player would know about EVEMon and its capability to provide a skill plan that will add the optimal learning skills needed to meet whatever your set goal is... It is as simple as plugging the skills you want into the plan, then clicking the little 'suggestion' link down at the bottom which will add whatever learning skills would actually benefit your training regime. [/thread] Devil bunnies! I snort the nose! Lucifer! Banana!
Cire XIII	Posted - 2008.04.03 17:29:00 - [26] Edited by: Cire XIII on 03/04/2008 17:33:29 Edited by: Cire XIII on 03/04/2008 17:29:36 Learning skills are great. They allow players to catch up to older players who were not dedicated to progressing their character enough to train up their learning skills. True you cannot catch up to everyone, but learning skills give a new player hope. I started a few months ago, gutted out the learning skills, and am catching up to characters weeks ahead of me and I still gaining. Learning skills are optional, but necessary if you are going to take Eve seriously. As a new player, I would hate to see them gone. If someone trains them all to V they should have an edge against those who did not think they would play for more than 3 years. In the time it took me to get all my learning skills up to 5 and the adv up to 4, not including charisma I was able to familiarize myself with the Eve interface, and read up on guides. All mmo's have some degree of grinding before you can enjoy the fruits of your labor (unless you rp). Eve has more, and play time and luck are not the only factors.
Benco97 Exchangable Properties	Posted - 2008.04.03 17:36:00 - [27] Edited by: Benco97 on 03/04/2008 17:41:59 Good gods... People... "I can't do anything for blah blah months because my learning skills aren't high enough!!" this is just ridiculous! What ships/modules have the learning skills as requirements? Telling new players to just train up their learning skills is TERRIBLE advice, let them train whatever the **** they want, SP isn't a race, you don't win anything for having a higher intelligence than someone else, it's just you people being impatient. I'm all for the removal of learning skills, hell, I'm all for the removal of IMPLANTS that boost those stats too edit nobody CARES if you "catch up" to someone with higher SP, it's not about Catching up to them. Just get the SP you want and enjoy instead of worrying that your 5.4SP/Sec is 0.002SP/Sec slower than someone else's. Originally by: Kirjava This man speaks the truth, when he farts we count the length in seconds and make squillions buying winning lottery tickets.
Megan Maynard Out of Order	Posted - 2008.04.03 17:39:00 - [28] The total lack of anything to do withen the first 2 months of playing will kill EVE. Learning skills need to go. Implants need to stay. Character creation will make your role in the eve universe more defined by your attributes you get when you start the game. A simple skill point compensation is all that would be needed for this to work, and then my friends will WANT to start playing the game. Miz Stelth Bomerz iz the ****nit.
Zifrian Gallente Federal Bank Interstellar Corporate Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.03 17:39:00 - [29] Edited by: Zifrian on 03/04/2008 17:39:42 To get a new character to all learning skills to level 4 (presence 3) takes 22days 8 hours. This is without implants. Getting +3's and the skills to use is basically a wash in terms of training time spent and you gain about 2-3 days if you start with them. If this is "necessary" as some have said, and I would agree with to do well in the long run, then how do you get new players on a free trial to have fun and remain interested in the game, all while not making them believe they are behind without training them?
Billy Sastard	Posted - 2008.04.03 17:50:00 - [30] Originally by: Zifrian Edited by: Zifrian on 03/04/2008 17:39:42 To get a new character to all learning skills to level 4 (presence 3) takes 22days 8 hours. This is without implants. Getting +3's and the skills to use is basically a wash in terms of training time spent and you gain about 2-3 days if you start with them. If this is "necessary" as some have said, and I would agree with to do well in the long run, then how do you get new players on a free trial to have fun and remain interested in the game, all while not making them believe they are behind without training them? Because is is not necessary to train all of them up at once? Use EVEMon to plan things out. for a noob on a trial account, you know you are just going to be using frigs, maybe cruisers. Figure out what ship/setup you want(again EVEMon helps loads here), plug in the skills needed, let evemon add suggestions. You will find that to get into the kind of ships a trial player is going to use, the learning skills required to be beneficial are actually not really that bad. The main problem I see here is that there is a large number of players who, for some reason, believe that all learning skills must be trained to 4 before doing anything else in game. This is patently false, just do some playing around with EVEMon with a freshly created character and a 14 day timeframe in mind and you can see for yourself. -=^=- Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

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