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Rasmus Endashi
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.02.26 03:34:00 -
[1] - Quote
(ISK) efficiency.
You see it on killboards and hear people mention it all the time.
This is how I see it.
In a fight you either loose or you win. Your alliance either gets the territory or not. That is a pretty absolute thing. There is no place for "relatives" here.
Why give a sh*t about "isk efficiency", or any kind of efficiency for that matter?
Comparing 2 pilots/corps/alliances with isk efficiency won't give me any really useful information.
Lets say my killboard says I have an efficiency of 30%. That is considered bad among pvpers. It says I lost more money in my fights then my opponents at the prices the killboard calculates with. But we don't know who has more money, who makes money faster let alone who cares more about money in the first place, so efficiency is a kinda worthless quotient in my opinion.
Maybe I got more experience/knowledge/fun for my money then my opponents. Maybe I have way more money then my opponents and I can afford not to think about it and other efficiency matters.
I'm not playing to achieve a certain level represented by a number or to be considered "good" by people.
And in the case of corporations or alliances...
If an alliance can afford to loose 200 hundred ships to get a territory, they won't stop for a second to think "hey, my enemy could get this territory with 150 ships, they are more efficient, I should give it to them without a fight" or something like this.
I bet that no alliance leadership said after loosing their territory, that "Keep your chin up! We were more efficient than the they were".
So why is this efficiency so fashionable?
I'd like to read a lot of thoughts of the more knowledgeable players then me. thanks. |

Lyron-Baktos
Selective Pressure Rote Kapelle
54
|
Posted - 2012.02.26 03:57:00 -
[2] - Quote
We use it because its all we have On holiday. -áIn some other world. Where the music of the radio was a labyrinth of sonorous colours. To a bright centre of absolute convicton. -áWhere the dripping patchouli was more than scent. -á It was a sun |

T0RT0ISE
KRAFTSTOFF GmbH KRAFTSTOFF
46
|
Posted - 2012.02.26 04:01:00 -
[3] - Quote
You are looking at it from one perspective only.
Lets say I am a soloer (oh I am!) and I want to fight unrelenting waves of bads (oh thats the majority of EvE).
I can't expect to engage them on any kind of 'fair' or 'even' terms but what I CAN do is engage larger numbers and win by destroying more of their resources than I myself lose.
How do I do this? WINNING THE ISK WAR WHILE BEING SUPER RENEGADE AND ENGAGING LARGER FLEETS OF BADS.
If I jump in like a suicidal maniac and take down a single tech II cruiser in the time it takes them to kill my own BC or whatever then not only have I won on ISK but I have thrown sand in the face of morons that think all PVP combat has to be done with the intention of staying alive & safe. RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH!
I know I am approaching this from an individuals perspective but not everything in PVP has to be about gaining territory.
|

Amthala
Lapse Of Sanity Exhale.
7
|
Posted - 2012.02.26 05:30:00 -
[4] - Quote
It's how you keep score in eve, deal with it. |

Super Chair
Project Cerberus Caldari State Capturing
157
|
Posted - 2012.02.26 06:08:00 -
[5] - Quote
Pretty sure unless you kill off their means of making a living, isk destroyed doesn't mean *that* much. You can kill a russians multi-billion isk officer/faction fit tengu and they'll be seen with the same tengu the next day (which isn't exactly a bad thing... ) |

Acutra Vessen
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.02.26 07:39:00 -
[6] - Quote
Rasmus Endashi wrote:(ISK) efficiency. If an alliance can afford to loose 200 hundred ships to get a territory, they won't stop for a second to think "hey, my enemy could get this territory with 150 ships, they are more efficient, I should give it to them without a fight" or something like this.
Large ISK generating groups such as alliances have what you might call an absolute advantage (being able to field 200 ships/hold sov etc.). It would be stupid for them not to take advantage of their advantage, otherwise it wouldn't be an advantage. ISK efficiency is a comparative advantage, and in the long run, if you allow your opponent to keep that advantage, you will be jeopardizing your absolute advantage. To be ISK efficient is a way to maintain absolute advantage (and minimize absolute disadvantage) by denying your opponents comparative advantage.
ISK efficiency is essentially the same thing as time efficiency. No matter how quickly a player or corporation generates ISK, it still requires a measurable investment in time to do so, however much or little that may be. Of course, every player and organization will earn ISK at different rates, but the average for a large group such as an alliance will be comparable to other similar sized groups within a few percent.
The main threat to alliances are other alliances who will have comparable time efficiency profiles. Blob fighting is where this is really important because even the best officer fit **** boats can expect to last a few seconds once they're primaried even if the opposing fleet is completely T1 and failfit. Long story short, being ISK inefficient in the long run is actually handing an advantage to the enemy.
Don't confuse the battle for the war. |

Malek Al Ni-Kunni
Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2012.02.26 07:52:00 -
[7] - Quote
Super Chair wrote:Pretty sure unless you kill off their means of making a living, isk destroyed doesn't mean *that* much. You can kill a russians multi-billion isk officer/faction fit tengu and they'll be seen with the same tengu the next day (which isn't exactly a bad thing...  )
And here I was thinking Estamel simply changed her name and moved to the drone regions. |

YesI'mWatching
Cool4Cats
9
|
Posted - 2012.02.26 10:55:00 -
[8] - Quote
Having mulriple victory conditions is handy. Winning the isk war is just one of these. |

MrOmniscient
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.02.26 11:24:00 -
[9] - Quote
Talking Warfare & Tactics specifically here...
It depends on the situation between the two combatants. If one side plans to continue the war for a significant time, and their aims include total decimation of the other side's forces, then ISK efficiency is a fantastic qualifier.
If you are fighting a small gang and they plan to keep harassing you, unless you can get a decent enough ISK efficiency from your fights that you are hurting them more than they are hurting you, then you are losing the war.
If you are the aggressors and only intent to grab a piece of land, or to send a message to the other side, then ISK efficiency is something you can afford to ignore.
tl;dr it depends what each side wants to achieve. |

King Rothgar
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
215
|
Posted - 2012.02.26 13:48:00 -
[10] - Quote
"ISK efficiency" is meaningless on the current kb's but it's because they don't actually calculate isk efficiency. Simple example: I engage a single pilot in a BC 10 times in a row and kill him 9 times out of 10. I have a ~90% isk efficiency for doing so while that pilot has a ~10% isk efficiency. But then he goes out to null, whores onto a SC kill with a rifter (which also dies) and suddenly has 99.999% "isk efficiency." You tell me which is actually the more efficient player. None of the major kb's currently divide isk values by the number of people on the km. As such, none of them give anything even approaching a real isk efficiency.
And of course you're right, it doesn't necessarily reflect the fun factor. I've been known to suicide a fair number of ships for lols. It's not about winning, it's about seeing how many of the bastards you can take down with you.
Hans Jagerblitzen for CSM7 |

Plus 1
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
8
|
Posted - 2012.02.26 17:48:00 -
[11] - Quote
King Rothgar wrote:"ISK efficiency" is meaningless on the current kb's but it's because they don't actually calculate isk efficiency. Simple example: I engage a single pilot in a BC 10 times in a row and kill him 9 times out of 10. I have a ~90% isk efficiency for doing so while that pilot has a ~10% isk efficiency. But then he goes out to null, whores onto a SC kill with a rifter (which also dies) and suddenly has 99.999% "isk efficiency." You tell me which is actually the more efficient player. None of the major kb's currently divide isk values by the number of people on the km. As such, none of them give anything even approaching a real isk efficiency. And of course you're right, it doesn't necessarily reflect the fun factor. I've been known to suicide a fair number of ships for lols. It's not about winning, it's about seeing how many of the bastards you can take down with you.  Even if you divided it, it would have issues. For example, BS, etc. on the SC mail with your rifter pal would have their efficiency divided by the rifter's presence, despite it's minimal contribution to the kill.
The inclination then may be to weigh it toward damage done, but that hurts non-damage-dealing utility roles like sceptors.
In the end, it's just a killboard stat and, like all KB stats, holds no real meaning in the actual game. If some alliance crushes some other alliance by winning the ISK war, that will happen regardless of what it looks like is happening on their KBs. |

Cartheron Crust
Matari Exodus
14
|
Posted - 2012.02.26 17:52:00 -
[12] - Quote
So what you are saying is killmails should be removed from the game.
I approve of this message and/or service. |

Muad 'dib
The Imperial Fedaykin
175
|
Posted - 2012.02.26 17:56:00 -
[13] - Quote
i like killmails for my own record of what ships i do best in etc
Same for my corp and everyone else.
Its not the be all and end all of pvp but it helps way more than it inhibits.
If you dont like them, ignore them no one makes you look at it |

Hamatitio
Aperture Harmonics K162
72
|
Posted - 2012.02.26 19:21:00 -
[14] - Quote
Cartheron Crust wrote:So what you are saying is killmails should be removed from the game.
I approve of this message and/or service.
Did you play before killmails were in game? It wasn't a magical golden time.
Today: Killboard link, shows relative battle report
Back then: Massive forum smacking about who killed what ships, how many people were brought on either side with no concrete evidence to support claims. |

PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders Flatline.
35
|
Posted - 2012.02.26 20:50:00 -
[15] - Quote
Kill mail stats such as isk efficiency don't show who is good. They show who is bad.
If you spend any reasonable amount of time flying through null sec and checking the peoples killboard stats, you'll find that the vast majority of players in null sec are "isk efficient". This does not mean that they are good. They could just fly in 100+man fleets ganking one or two roaming ratters every now and then. However, if someone has poor isk efficiency (less than 1:1) it generally does show that they are 'bad' or inexperienced.
Once you get above a 1:1 ratio, there really is no good metric for evaluating skill imo. A person that solo's often might only have a ratio of 5:1, but a person that only flies in 100+ man fleets could have a ratio of 30:1 even though they never really risked any ships at all. In this case the soloer is probably the much better pvper, but stats won't show that.
On the other hand, the soloer could have gotten all of his kills playing station games with noobs and the fleet pilot could be one of the most competent logi/dictor/recon pilots in the game.
So I'll just say it again. Isk efficiency doesn't show you who is good, it shows you who is bad. |

Manar Detri
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
6
|
Posted - 2012.02.26 23:46:00 -
[16] - Quote
T0RT0ISE wrote:You are looking at it from one perspective only.
Lets say I am a soloer (oh I am!) and I want to fight unrelenting waves of bads (oh thats the majority of EvE).
I can't expect to engage them on any kind of 'fair' or 'even' terms but what I CAN do is engage larger numbers and win by destroying more of their resources than I myself lose.
How do I do this? WINNING THE ISK WAR WHILE BEING SUPER RENEGADE AND ENGAGING LARGER FLEETS OF BADS.
If I jump in like a suicidal maniac and take down a single tech II cruiser in the time it takes them to kill my own BC or whatever then not only have I won on ISK but I have thrown sand in the face of morons that think all PVP combat has to be done with the intention of staying alive & safe. RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH!
I know I am approaching this from an individuals perspective but not everything in PVP has to be about gaining territory.
I find your intentions to be the best ones one can have. The combat is the fun part, finding it, getting it going and then slapping the other guys in the face. |

Bad Messenger
draketrain Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
115
|
Posted - 2012.02.27 00:30:00 -
[17] - Quote
Isk efficiency is just a calculated number and it does not directly tell if player is bad o good pvp:er.
It sure tells something about player or corporation if they have good or lousy isk efficiency.
But to get right answer you have to check other stats too and do some analyzing as whole to tell how things really are.
Usually both sides gets kills and losses on fights, losing fight maybe expected before fight but people want to cause isk losses to enemy before they die, using cheap ships to take down some expensive ones.
For a long run losing expensive stuff may cause problems, for a short term it usually does not matter much. |

Kessiaan
Greater Order Of Destruction Happy Endings
89
|
Posted - 2012.02.27 00:40:00 -
[18] - Quote
For all its fault's I think Battleclinic's scoring is the most indicative of general skill, primarily because it factors in fleet size. My killboard - http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=player&name=Kessiaan |

Trinkets friend
Obstergo NEM3SIS.
156
|
Posted - 2012.02.27 03:21:00 -
[19] - Quote
Kessiaan wrote:For all its fault's I think Battleclinic's scoring is the most indicative of general skill, primarily because it factors in fleet size.
Lukka.
- -
Now, back to the OP. War, you see, is about not just tactical victories but strategic victories. On killboards, every so often, you will see people put up campaigns. This records the kills and losses versus an enemy, for an objective or a set time or in a set corner of space. There is also then an ability to calculate the ISK efficiency of said campaign.
For instance, my alliance decided to remove Banderlogs from its rental system. We went in, shot the place up, dealt 120 kills for 2 or so losses (plus a few blues). ISK efficiency 95%. Kill to death ratio, as above. One may call this a success.
SniggWaffe has been trolling us for the past week with a POS in a strategic system that risks throwing our region open to BLOPs gangs, hotdrops and things that make our carebears cry in their picnic baskets. Currently the campaign has seen us destroy their POS and guns, 70-odd ships including their POS-dropping Nomad (luls, farked that up PL) and generally deny them from having an easy time of it. 80% ISK efficiency and a 2.5:1 kill to loss ratio....and ongoing.
At some point, SniggWaffe's PL overlords will get sick of diverting tech goo income towards this operation, and will either front in their supers and whup us, or they will decide that SniggWaffe sucks ass and pull the pin.
An 80% ISK efficiency and a good K:L ratio on our side doesn't mean we will stop them coming and trying, it just means that whoever is paying for the war is going to have to keep digging deeper for longer to fund our GF's.
ISK loss, as pointed out, equates to time or the time-value of money (hence why some killboards track real money equivalence). I killed a 5B Mach + pod the other day - nominally US$100 some russian guy may have spent if he had bought PLEX. Knowing Russians, he probably didn't buy PLEX, so who cares? Well, certainly if he had been ratting like a boss at 50M/hr he spent 100 game hours to afford that ship, which he lost to a Taranis which fell out of a POS in a wormhole 12 months ago. Who won that time-money battle? Me.
I look at ISK efficiency as a measure of the amount of time I made someone mine, haul moon goo or shoot red crosses, versus the amount of time I had to haul crap for market PVP. I am generally 95% ISK efficient, because I sure as hell haven't ratted for 100 hours in the past 12 months. The skilful employer of men will employ the wise man, the brave man, the covetous man, and the stupid man. Sun Tzu @trinketsfriend on twatter
|

Cephelange du'Krevviq
Hephaestus LLC Get Off My Lawn
28
|
Posted - 2012.02.27 06:35:00 -
[20] - Quote
Trinkets friend wrote:Now, back to the OP. War, you see, is about not just tactical victories but strategic victories. On killboards, every so often, you will see people put up campaigns. This records the kills and losses versus an enemy, for an objective or a set time or in a set corner of space. There is also then an ability to calculate the ISK efficiency of said campaign.
For instance, my alliance decided to remove Banderlogs from its rental system. We went in, shot the place up, dealt 120 kills for 2 or so losses (plus a few blues). ISK efficiency 95%. Kill to death ratio, as above. One may call this a success.
SniggWaffe has been trolling us for the past week with a POS in a strategic system that risks throwing our region open to BLOPs gangs, hotdrops and things that make our carebears cry in their picnic baskets. Currently the campaign has seen us destroy their POS and guns, 70-odd ships including their POS-dropping Nomad (luls, farked that up PL) and generally deny them from having an easy time of it. 80% ISK efficiency and a 2.5:1 kill to loss ratio....and ongoing.
At some point, SniggWaffe's PL overlords will get sick of diverting tech goo income towards this operation, and will either front in their supers and whup us, or they will decide that SniggWaffe sucks ass and pull the pin.
An 80% ISK efficiency and a good K:L ratio on our side doesn't mean we will stop them coming and trying, it just means that whoever is paying for the war is going to have to keep digging deeper for longer to fund our GF's.
ISK loss, as pointed out, equates to time or the time-value of money (hence why some killboards track real money equivalence). I killed a 5B Mach + pod the other day - nominally US$100 some russian guy may have spent if he had bought PLEX. Knowing Russians, he probably didn't buy PLEX, so who cares? Well, certainly if he had been ratting like a boss at 50M/hr he spent 100 game hours to afford that ship, which he lost to a Taranis which fell out of a POS in a wormhole 12 months ago. Who won that time-money battle? Me.
I look at ISK efficiency as a measure of the amount of time I made someone mine, haul moon goo or shoot red crosses, versus the amount of time I had to haul crap for market PVP. I am generally 95% ISK efficient, because I sure as hell haven't ratted for 100 hours in the past 12 months.
This is the post that really "gets it" about what ISK efficiency is or isn't. |

Mfume Apocal
Origin. Nulli Secunda
331
|
Posted - 2012.02.27 08:10:00 -
[21] - Quote
the hilarious part of Battleclinic's ranking system is that you get a massive amount of points for sabre+falcon vs. haulers, more points than killing 2 or 3 dudes in a 5 on 5 small gang fight. |

stup idity
2
|
Posted - 2012.02.27 11:31:00 -
[22] - Quote
T0RT0ISE wrote: .. then not only have I won on ISK ...
No you haven't. You lost ISK, they lost more. A typical lose-lose situation.
I reign supreme. |

WeiLing TCG
GR3Y N0MADS
0
|
Posted - 2012.02.27 12:22:00 -
[23] - Quote
Speaking from my experience (as little as there is), personal isk efficiency is borked. Alliance/corp efficiencies are less borked but still borked if you run with big coalitions.
Why? Kills are credited fully. I get as much credit on efficiency on kills that I whored on as a kill I made solo. Alliance A gets the same credit for killing my nyx as Alliance B which had a Rifter shoot just once at it.
Battleclinic is somewhat borked, but less borked than eve-kill or other boards for looking at PERSONAL efficiency. KM whoring is much less effective with that system.
I really like the word borked.
However, at the same time you can get ridiculous stats if you do nothing but suicide gank hulks (which we have done) and flip missioners in highsec (which I hope to try at some point).
Ultimately though, killboards do nothing but show a summary of the events that occured (between xxxx time and yyyy time) and are at most an approximate means judge how good or bad an entity is at pvp, especially as you reach the higher ratios. I will agree with the above poster who stated that KB stats will show you how bad someone is.
Anyway, I rant alot. |

Degren
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
54
|
Posted - 2012.02.27 12:57:00 -
[24] - Quote
Acutra Vessen wrote:Rasmus Endashi wrote:(ISK) efficiency. If an alliance can afford to loose 200 hundred ships to get a territory, they won't stop for a second to think "hey, my enemy could get this territory with 150 ships, they are more efficient, I should give it to them without a fight" or something like this.
Large ISK generating groups such as alliances have what you might call an absolute advantage (being able to field 200 ships/hold sov etc.). It would be stupid for them not to take advantage of their advantage, otherwise it wouldn't be an advantage. ISK efficiency is a comparative advantage, and in the long run, if you allow your opponent to keep that advantage, you will be jeopardizing your absolute advantage. To be ISK efficient is a way to maintain absolute advantage (and minimize absolute disadvantage) by denying your opponents comparative advantage. ISK efficiency is essentially the same thing as time efficiency. No matter how quickly a player or corporation generates ISK, it still requires a measurable investment in time to do so, however much or little that may be. Of course, every player and organization will earn ISK at different rates, but the average for a large group such as an alliance will be comparable to other similar sized groups within a few percent. The main threat to alliances are other alliances who will have comparable time efficiency profiles. Blob fighting is where this is really important because even the best officer fit **** boats can expect to last a few seconds once they're primaried even if the opposing fleet is completely T1 and failfit. Long story short, being ISK inefficient in the long run is actually handing an advantage to the enemy. Don't confuse the battle for the war.
You can all stop posting, the thread ended at this guy. |

CanIHave YourStuff
In Praise Of Shadows
12
|
Posted - 2012.02.27 13:54:00 -
[25] - Quote
stup idity wrote:T0RT0ISE wrote: .. then not only have I won on ISK ...
No you haven't. You lost ISK, they lost more. A typical lose-lose situation. He didn't say he won ISK you fool. |

Daphny Naarma
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2012.02.27 14:37:00 -
[26] - Quote
Rasmus Endashi wrote:... But we don't know who has more money, who makes money faster let alone who cares more about money in the first place, so efficiency is a kinda worthless quotient in my opinion. ... Correct (bold), but as has already been stated - it is one of the few things measurable and - more directly connected to quoted statement: Are you familiar to the term 'et cetirus paribus'? It's not used here out of some look-I-quote-latin-so-Im-schmart-reason - no - it is actually a common term used in several scientific fields when commenting on variables and circumstances (such as those you mention).
It means something along the line of "all else alike", or simply disregarding the 'other' variables as equal'ish effecting the real variable of intrest (your 'efficiency' compared to others') .
...with the following 'effect' on your argument that we don't know who has more money, makes money faster etc etc: On a statistical level (which, if we look at people with more than a few fights, clearly becomes relevant) - you can assume the "who has more" etc etc simply evens out, and thus becomes a less relevant variable than you make it out to be. |

Salcon Cliff
Aliastra Gallente Federation
33
|
Posted - 2012.02.27 15:14:00 -
[27] - Quote
Eh, if you don't like it, put your hand over that part of the screen when looking at the KB. |

FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks Petition Blizzard
1029
|
Posted - 2012.02.27 15:42:00 -
[28] - Quote
The problems with using isk efficient as a judge of PVP skill:
- Everyone gets credit for it. A billion-isk T3 killed in a gate camp can easily become 30 billion isk on the killboards, as every player gets full credit.
- One loss can wreck it. Reference the 30 billion isk Palladin gank.
- It reflects the ability to find things you can kill, not skill in combat. My isk efficiency is high because of our Incursion griefing. Even without that I have a good record, but my efficiency would drop from around 97% to a more mundane 70%. Those incursion ships bloat my efficiency but were fish in a barrel. It was social engineering that put those kills on my board, not combat skill.
Just ignore it, it's almost always useless information. Even kills/losses is only marginally important: someone who loses hundreds of rifters and kills dozens of battleships is worth having. |

Uppsy Daisy
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
78
|
Posted - 2012.02.27 16:05:00 -
[29] - Quote
Quote:None of the major kb's currently divide isk values by the number of people on the km. As such, none of them give anything even approaching a real isk efficiency.
This guy nailed it. |

stup idity
2
|
Posted - 2012.02.27 17:11:00 -
[30] - Quote
CanIHave YourStuff wrote:stup idity wrote:T0RT0ISE wrote: .. then not only have I won on ISK ...
No you haven't. You lost ISK, they lost more. A typical lose-lose situation. He didn't say he won ISK you fool.
My dear follower. Let me point out: neither did I.
He argued he'd won because he lost less ISK than his opponents. Unless you are fighting for anything that can be measured directly or indirectly in ISK, you lose ISK when you lose a ship, doesn't matter if your opponent loses more or less than you.
Of course you can argue for all those immaterial gains that might come from such a fight... the 'good time', the 'adrenaline rush', the 'hero of the day feeling' or whatever... might even being worth the ISK you lose, but still doesn't make it a win when looking at the ISK balance in this single engagement.
ISK efficiency is only a measurement for 'my grief' towards 'grief I participated in doing on others'.
I reign supreme. |
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