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Trinkets friend
Obstergo
NEM3SIS.
160
   |
Posted - 2012.02.28 05:21:00 -
[31] - Quote
Mfume Apocal wrote:the hilarious part of Battleclinic's ranking system is that you get a massive amount of points for sabre+falcon vs. haulers, more points than killing 2 or 3 dudes in a 5 on 5 small gang fight.
A similar flaw on most killboards, which arbitrarily assign points to various ship classes, related to defenceless assets such as JF's, Rorquals (though you can make a Battle Rorq), Orcas (my fave), etc, where points are arbitrarily assigned. BC also moves the goalposts and Lukka follows; you used to get lots of points for soloing POS's on BC, and now you don't - which makes my AFK POS bash alt cry in his sleep.
BC's ranking vs other players is based on points, ofc. But points are calculated by the damage done to the enemy as well, meaning you can solo a drake in a wormhole but if he's tanked 190K damage from sleepers and you do the usual 23K, the points awarded are abysmally low.
Then again, you can do a lot of damage to yourself by having a hulk in hisec get a drone on your command ship lossmail when you herp a derp at 2 a.m. + wine and get CONCORDOKKENED.
The skilful employer of men will employ the wise man, the brave man, the covetous man, and the stupid man.
Sun Tzu
@trinketsfriend on twatter
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T0RT0ISE
KRAFTSTOFF GmbH
KRAFTSTOFF
54
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Posted - 2012.02.28 10:33:00 -
[32] - Quote
stup idity wrote:CanIHave YourStuff wrote:stup idity wrote:T0RT0ISE wrote:
.. then not only have I won on ISK ...
No you haven't. You lost ISK, they lost more. A typical lose-lose situation. He didn't say he won ISK you fool. My dear follower. Let me point out: neither did I. He argued he'd won because he lost less ISK than his opponents. Unless you are fighting for anything that can be measured directly or indirectly in ISK, you lose ISK when you lose a ship, doesn't matter if your opponent loses more or less than you. Of course you can argue for all those immaterial gains that might come from such a fight... the 'good time', the 'adrenaline rush', the 'hero of the day feeling' or whatever... might even being worth the ISK you lose, but still doesn't make it a win when looking at the ISK balance in this single engagement. ISK efficiency is only a measurement for 'my grief' towards 'grief I participated in doing on others'.
Wow, what a cowardly way of looking at combat.
Who cares if you lose money going in as a guerilla. You obviously don't understand what soloing or being a renegade is about.
Carry on being risk averse and worrying about losing ships wolololol. Meanwhile I will be having fun and doing things you could only dream of doing in your cosy little bubble of incompetence. |
Cannibal Kane
Brotherhood of KANE
255
|
Posted - 2012.02.28 11:13:00 -
[33] - Quote
ISK efficiency is important to some.
For me it is.
I know this is going to sounds ANAL, but this is how I break it down for myself.
My only source of income in EVE is PVP. This is gathered from Target Drops, and Ransom.
I use Griefwatch since it just keep a hell of a lot of info with regards to kill ratios and ISK ratios. More info is good.
I have 2 ships that I fitted up with one goal in mind, shoot and kill as many ships as I can find. Both these ships total amount was 62 Mil ISK to fit.
I lost both these ships with a total loss of 62 Mil, but they did just under 3 Billion isk Damage. I still loose 62 Mil, but the drops from the almost 3 Billion isk not including ransoms... (Yes I do not Honor Ransoms since I don't care. I am here to have fun) was just shy of 140mil. I lost 62mil but made back almost 80mil, not including ransoms.
I look at everything, just KB ISK efficiency does not matter, there is more behind that number than meets the eye. For Example: This engagement i got out with Structure in my cruiser.
That is a 31mil fiited ship. The drops alone in this engagement replaced the cost of the ship.
http://kane.griefwatch.net/?p=engagement&kill=1038
a Good KB ISK efficiency means fokol if you lost 1Bill to Kill 2 Bill but did not make that Loss back. It means your still 1 Bill out of pocket.
Am I putting to much thought into it... Probly, but a good KB ISK efficiency means fokol if I have no ISK left. What then, Mission? Mine? PLEX? Hell No...
PVP to make ISK is hell of alot more fun.
I'm not a Pirate, I'm a Terrorist. |
Lady Spank
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
1589
|
Posted - 2012.02.28 11:26:00 -
[34] - Quote
I dunno. I like to worry less about killboards and more about seeing what I can get away with engaging.
(a¦á_a¦â) ~ http://getoutnastyface.blogspot.com/ ~ (a¦á_a¦â) |
Gary Bell
DerpSquad
9
|
Posted - 2012.02.28 12:31:00 -
[35] - Quote
I measure what I do in Carebear tears Best Efficiency |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
290
|
Posted - 2012.02.28 14:47:00 -
[36] - Quote
Trinkets friend wrote:Kessiaan wrote:For all its fault's I think Battleclinic's scoring is the most indicative of general skill, primarily because it factors in fleet size. Lukka...
Is a good pvper.
Maybe not the best in all of eve but he is good. Yes he can game the system but, whatever. Everyone has different goals. And this is after all a game.
The others at the top of the BC rating system are also likely good pvpers. Kate Mosh Loren Gallen are a few that are good.
Best corps according to BC are 1)outbreak and 2)Genos. Are they horrible too?
The BC scoring system is much better than isk efficiency. Like Kessiaan said for all its faults BattleClinic's scoring systems is the most indicictive of any single statistic. But yes you do have to look further.
On the other hand isk efficiency is a joke. The more someone blobs the higher the isk efficiency. Look at some of the best pvpers in the game. They generally won't have super isk efficiency ratios. But everyone who blobs will have great isk efficiency.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Red Teufel
Blackened Skies
THE UNTHINKABLES
45
|
Posted - 2012.02.28 14:52:00 -
[37] - Quote
isk effeciency works fine. it's a great way to figure out if you're dealing with a good pilot or a bad one. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
290
|
Posted - 2012.02.28 14:56:00 -
[38] - Quote
Mfume Apocal wrote:the hilarious part of Battleclinic's ranking system is that you get a massive amount of points for sabre+falcon vs. haulers, more points than killing 2 or 3 dudes in a 5 on 5 small gang fight.
I agree that the bc board counting ecm ships as only as powerfull as other ships in their class is not realistic. A griffin and 2 assault ships is much more powerfull than 2 assault ships and a condor. Yet they count the same.
The other issue is they give points for fighting things that are defenseless like pods. Its 10 points for killing a pod in a frigate. Its only like one point for killing a pod in a bc. Why? Is it harder to kill a pod with a frigate than a bc? Does it take any skill at all to kill a pod?
Yes I think we all agree Battleclinics scoring could be better.
But it is the best single statistic you can look to to get you started. If someone is ranked in the top 1000 they are probably pretty good. If they are ranked below 200,000 they probably are pretty bad - unless its an alt. I don't think anyone would disagree with that.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Andrea Griffin
135
|
Posted - 2012.02.28 15:51:00 -
[39] - Quote
ISK efficiency is pretty dumb as a measure of success. When I was flying with a corp that demanded 90% or better efficiency it was pretty easy to accomplish. Just lock every enemy and fire a single shot at it during the engagement. Ta-da, I'm on all the mails, my isk efficiency is great even if I contribute nothing.
A point system is better, but the point systems I have seen are pretty flawed. Killing a Rifter often gives the same points as killing a Dramiel, because "both are T1 frigates".
What we need is a mathematician with some good statistics skills and a computer designed for number crunching. Gather 250k kill mails or so, and do a bunch of Cool Math Stuffs to generate a new point system.
Solo, if a ship is on a lot of kills and isn't killed very much, it should be worth more points. If a ship tends to lose fights more than it wins, it shouldn't be worth as many. And different point values for small gang engagements, for example - though as we all know, it's hard to get a complete picture of a fight, because off-grid boosters and logistics don't make it onto KMs unless they die.
Any math majors want to make an independent study class out of this?
It's not you guys who need to repair what has been broken, it's us. CCP Wrangler |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
290
|
Posted - 2012.02.28 16:08:00 -
[40] - Quote
Andrea Griffin wrote:ISK efficiency is pretty dumb as a measure of success. When I was flying with a corp that demanded 90% or better efficiency it was pretty easy to accomplish. Just lock every enemy and fire a single shot at it during the engagement. Ta-da, I'm on all the mails, my is efficiency is great even if I contribute nothing.
A point system is better, but the point systems I have seen are pretty flawed. Killing a Rifter often gives the same points as killing a Dramiel, because "both are T1 frigates".
...
Yeah only battleclinic has a decent point system. It does have some issues but it at least differentiates a rifter from a dramiel.
Eve arena was going to have a decent point system as well (i think its defunct) but there are some inherent difficulties with any point system. Especially if you consider players flying in gangs.
However using the battleclinic point system can still be helpful even there. For example if you take the ratio of kills per points and the ratio of losses per points you can see if that person usually takes on larger opposition or simply blobs smaller opposition.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Andrea Griffin
141
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Posted - 2012.02.28 16:10:00 -
[41] - Quote
Eve Arena was shaping up to be a fantastic killboard, but the developer disappeared. That is really sad; I tossed a few mails to him about a few things a long time ago, and he was a nice guy and very responsive. : <
It's not you guys who need to repair what has been broken, it's us. CCP Wrangler |
Lady Spank
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
1593
|
Posted - 2012.02.28 21:34:00 -
[42] - Quote
Kill Failcon +1000000000 efficiency procentiles
Lose Failcon =111111111111111 to ur alliance and big FAIL FAIL FAIL COWARD graphics on ur killboard for life
I am being 43.76% serious here.
(a¦á_a¦â) ~ http://getoutnastyface.blogspot.com/ ~ (a¦á_a¦â) |
Lady Spank
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
1593
|
Posted - 2012.02.28 21:35:00 -
[43] - Quote
Also I must say Andrea, you looking mighty pretty with that collagen implant.
(a¦á_a¦â) ~ http://getoutnastyface.blogspot.com/ ~ (a¦á_a¦â) |
Andrea Griffin
144
|
Posted - 2012.02.29 03:47:00 -
[44] - Quote
Lady Spank wrote:Also I must say Andrea, you looking mighty pretty with that collagen implant. Thank you, love. Personally, I find my nose to be especially cute, but what really makes the whole thing work is the goggles. GÖÑ
It's not you guys who need to repair what has been broken, it's us. CCP Wrangler |
Michael Harari
The Hatchery
Team Liquid
55
|
Posted - 2012.02.29 06:27:00 -
[45] - Quote
Isk efficiency is also massively increased by flying in large coalitions. Say your corp has 1 guy out of 10 in a bc fleet. The entire fleet gets welped to another 10 man bc fleet. Your fleet gets 1 kill.
Your corp's isk efficiency for that fight is 50%, which is obviously nonsense.
(its the same for individual flying in corp fleets) |
stup idity
2
|
Posted - 2012.02.29 07:09:00 -
[46] - Quote
T0RT0ISE wrote:
Wow, what a cowardly way of looking at combat.
Who cares if you lose money going in as a guerilla. You obviously don't understand what soloing or being a renegade is about.
Carry on being risk averse and worrying about losing ships wolololol. Meanwhile I will be having fun and doing things you could only dream of doing in your cosy little bubble of incompetence.
Again I am misunderstood 
But let me try to clarify, maybe this time I'll be getting through - I do have the feeling it might be tough, though.
First let me make one thing very clear: My previous statements were solely based on YOUR posts and YOUR arguments. They don't have anything to do with my personal play style (which may include lots of PVP in any form or not - doesn't matter here).
Second, YOU were saying that you compare ISK combat losses and feel like you have won if only the opponent loses more ISK than you. You were NOT creating any context for those combats - no ingame reason for fighting, no personal reasons for fighting and especially no ISK related reasons for fighting.
Based on this, the equation is very, very simple: no gain + only loss = only loss, no matter if someone else also loses stuff or not.
But: It's good to see that you are not entirely without motive behind your suicidal tendencies, so have fun losing ships if you feel it's worth it.
And one last thing, a quote from Wikipedia from the topic guerilla warfare. I marked the interesting part for you.
Guerrilla warfare is a form of irregular warfare and refers to conflicts in which a small group of combatants including, but not limited to, armed civilians (or "irregulars") use military tactics, such as ambushes, sabotage, raids, the element of surprise, and extraordinary mobility to harass a larger and less-mobile traditional army, or strike a vulnerable target, and withdraw almost immediately.
I reign supreme. |
Lady Spank
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
1617
|
Posted - 2012.02.29 15:32:00 -
[47] - Quote
I think the gain 'T0rt0ise' is talking about is the experience of combat.
You appear to be trying to commodify the sheer fun of combat, or at least justify its existence through profit or loss statistics.
(a¦á_a¦â) ~ http://getoutnastyface.blogspot.com/ ~ (a¦á_a¦â) |
Lady Spank
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
1617
|
Posted - 2012.02.29 15:35:00 -
[48] - Quote
Furthermore: Real world guerilla conflict may imply the intention to survive on the attackers side but in New Eden this is irrelevant. You can get in, do your damage and 'withdraw' by cloning.
Traditional survival requirements do not apply.
(a¦á_a¦â) ~ http://getoutnastyface.blogspot.com/ ~ (a¦á_a¦â) |
OT Smithers
Cult of Baal
81
|
Posted - 2012.02.29 15:40:00 -
[49] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Trinkets friend wrote:Kessiaan wrote:For all its fault's I think Battleclinic's scoring is the most indicative of general skill, primarily because it factors in fleet size. Lukka... Is a good pvper. Maybe not the best in all of eve but he is good. Yes he can game the system but, whatever. Everyone has different goals. And this is after all a game. The others at the top of the BC rating system are also likely good pvpers. Kate Mosh Loren Gallen are a few that are good. Best corps according to BC are 1)outbreak and 2)Genos. Are they horrible too? The BC scoring system is much better than isk efficiency. Like Kessiaan said for all its faults BattleClinic's scoring systems is the most indicictive of any single statistic. But yes you do have to look further. On the other hand isk efficiency is a joke. The more someone blobs the higher the isk efficiency. Look at some of the best pvpers in the game. They generally won't have super isk efficiency ratios. But everyone who blobs will have great isk efficiency.
This.
I see quite a few people in game trashing battleclinic's ranking system as meaningless. I submit that while it is imperfect and subject to "gaming" it is a reasonable representation. More so, given that so many players dismiss it out of hand and make no effort to game it (or even check it). I have never encountered a top player who was not exceptionally good at whatever it is that they do.
ISK efficiency, to me, is a lot less relevant as a general statistic. It's probably important to corporations and alliances tracking mega wars, but beyond that not so much. As an individual stat, every player judges for himself whether or not they can afford to continue flying the ships they prefer, and no one needs a stat on a killboard to tell them this. Further, it is the one stat many players go out of their way to game -- probably because it is relatively easy to do.
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Kirith Vespira
Border Zone Excursions
11
|
Posted - 2012.02.29 23:15:00 -
[50] - Quote
There's a saying we have here in Amerika: "Close only counts in horsehoes and hand grenades."
"ISK efficiency" is only there for the KM wh0res... |
Mechael
Team Pizza
Viro Mors Non Est
49
|
Posted - 2012.03.01 00:49:00 -
[51] - Quote
ISK efficiency is really only relevant when juxtaposing two (or more) combatants (whether individual, corp, or alliance level) and taking into account the total income of each combatant.
For those who need that explained a little further, 100m in losses is nothing for someone who's making a couple bil a week. It's impossible to gauge an accurate isk efficiency ratio without taking income into account. With this information, you can then properly gauge a war of economic attrition. It'd be possible, for example, to see two alliances at war and gauge which of them is winning and which is losing from an economic perspective.
Without a frame of reference (juxtaposition of your own isk efficiency against someone elses) and without taking income into account, calling something an isk efficiency ratio is something of a fallacy at worst, mostly useless at best.
I'd rather die in battle against a man who will lie to me, than for a man who will lie to me. |
Mechael
Team Pizza
Viro Mors Non Est
49
|
Posted - 2012.03.01 01:15:00 -
[52] - Quote
isk efficiency = ((yourIncome - yourLosses) / 100) x ((enemyIncome - yourKills) / 100)
This would be a good starting formula. Came up with it off of the top of my head, and it could probably use some tweaking to taste. What it does do as is, though, is give a more accurate estimate of who is winning the isk war. It really only makes sense in the narrow realm where there are no kills/losses included that exist outside of the entities which are being compared. In other words, the only kills that count are kills against this specific enemy (or enemies) and the only losses that counts are the ones that they've inflicted upon you. No outside kills/losses or the results will be skewed in such a way as to become meaningless to the context.
Using API pulls it should be very possible to gauge things like overall income. Definitely for individuals. For corporations/alliances it would only be accurate under one of two circumstances: either everyone in said corp/alliance has given their API info so that accurate incomes for each pilot can be determined and added together, or else only the CEO/Director gives API information and thus only corp corp wallets are factored. The former would be 100% accurate, and the latter would be quite skewed except in extremely communist corporations/alliances.
Nobody has done this yet, obviously, but it'd be quite handy for those of us who like to wage war. Not so much for bragging about how good of a killer of random targets you are, though.
**EDIT** The formula really doesn't work, but it should at least point to a plausible direction for determining success in economic warfare.
I'd rather die in battle against a man who will lie to me, than for a man who will lie to me. |
Mechael
Team Pizza
Viro Mors Non Est
49
|
Posted - 2012.03.01 01:55:00 -
[53] - Quote
ISK Efficiency = ((yourIncome - theirKills) / yourIncome) - ((theirIncome - yourKills) / theirIncome)
There we go. Got some of the kinks worked out.
The first half gives you the % of your income that is remaining after taking into account what your enemy has destroyed. The second half gives you the % of their income that is remaining after taking into account what you've destroyed. So what happens is this ...
If you suffer zero losses, and kill off half of the enemy's income, that's a 50% isk efficiency rating.
If you lose 100% of your income and they suffer no losses, that's a -100% isk efficiency rating.
Numbers will go beyond the -100% to 100% scale if one side manages to destroy more ISK than the other side is earning. This means that whoever is losing is actually losing money that they've had saved up, effectively a negative income. The losing party is living off of their savings at this point.
I'm sure there are other ways to improve upon this. Hopefully this helps bring into light some of the problems with the current methods of determining isk efficiency, at least as applied to economic warfare.
I'd rather die in battle against a man who will lie to me, than for a man who will lie to me. |
stup idity
2
|
Posted - 2012.03.01 05:43:00 -
[54] - Quote
Lady Spank wrote:I think the gain 'T0rt0ise' is talking about is the experience of combat.
You appear to be trying to commodify the sheer fun of combat, or at least justify its existence through profit or loss statistics.
Which of course is one of the many valid reason to engage a superior force and die while doing so. Never denied that there exists such motivation. I only stated that Mr. T0rt0ise's original statement (where he argued he had 'won' and referred that solely to less ISK loss than his random opponents) is invalid.
Lady Spank wrote:Furthermore: Real world guerilla conflict may imply the intention to survive on the attackers side but in New Eden this is irrelevant. You can get in, do your damage and 'withdraw' by cloning.
Traditional survival requirements do not apply.
It isn't Guerilla then, is it? More like Kamikaze - although of course, our internet spaceships lack the capability to inflict damage by ramming. But the 'getting in to hurt and die' part fits.
I reign supreme. |
Mechael
Team Pizza
Viro Mors Non Est
49
|
Posted - 2012.03.01 05:55:00 -
[55] - Quote
Survival is guaranteed. Thank you clones. Charging in to be destroyed and shoved forcibly into a new clone would qualify as guerrilla tactics, methinks. Cloning in EVE is just another form of withdrawing, rather than actual death. This seems tangential, though.
I'd rather die in battle against a man who will lie to me, than for a man who will lie to me. |
stup idity
2
|
Posted - 2012.03.01 06:34:00 -
[56] - Quote
Mechael wrote:Survival is guaranteed. Thank you clones. Charging in to be destroyed and shoved forcibly into a new clone would qualify as guerrilla tactics, methinks. Cloning in EVE is just another form of withdrawing, rather than actual death. This seems tangential, though.
It's more like getting withdrawn. Still feels more like Kamikaze (with reusable pilots) for me.
Mechael wrote:calculations and other stuff....
I see some problems with your approach:
- People are best when concentrating on one thing, or to put it the other way around: they suck at doing several things simultaneously, like harvesting ISK and fighting an ongoing conflict -> Income will often decrease the moment you go to war - probably not always.
- A major factor in all conflicts are the available assets - much more important than the income, actually. 'Available assets' is of course very situational.
- Short term conflicts have nothing to do with income, only with available assets. This might come down to the ships people are sitting in, because they just don't feel like getting another ship after they lost.
I reign supreme. |
Cartheron Crust
Matari Exodus
17
|
Posted - 2012.03.01 09:54:00 -
[57] - Quote
Hamatitio wrote:Cartheron Crust wrote:So what you are saying is killmails should be removed from the game.
I approve of this message and/or service. Did you play before killmails were in game? It wasn't a magical golden time. Today: Killboard link, shows relative battle report Back then: Massive forum smacking about who killed what ships, how many people were brought on either side with no concrete evidence to support claims.
I'm sorry you need your internet spaceship life to be validated by some auto generated code.
And oh no, smacking from people you do not know about killing internet spaceships. How tragic, how will you ever cope. |
Michael Torrez
Zervas Aeronautics
Otas Federation
1
|
Posted - 2012.03.01 16:30:00 -
[58] - Quote
i agree with you it like a k/d in other games....you might have more kill then me and my team might have more death but at the end the bomb was planted and we won  |
Sjugar
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
20
|
Posted - 2012.03.01 17:17:00 -
[59] - Quote
Isk efficiency on a killboard is often just a number that doesn't say anything.
On a larger scale, wars between alliances isk-efficiency can be very important. If you don't have unlimited funds you can't afford to lose a whole lot time after time after time. Or you will in the end lose the war.
Isk efficiency is the difference between flying drakes or tengus.
On the other hands there are those alliances that can sustain throwing isk at a war and if two of those clash then it will be long drawn out.
I myself have been in a war in a not so rich alliance where at the start we would fly battleships and ahacs and even though we won most of the fights in the end, the enemy kept throwing drakes at us at an endless pace that they won the war. |
Soporo
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
16
|
Posted - 2012.03.03 04:39:00 -
[60] - Quote
Uppsy Daisy wrote:Quote:None of the major kb's currently divide isk values by the number of people on the km. As such, none of them give anything even approaching a real isk efficiency. This guy nailed it.
Yeah, and maybe seperate the Alliance and Corp boards by some other different metric or calculation than from personal stats.
I'm probably gonna regret this, but it is what it is, and the same for tons of others, specially folks who been in Null I'm sure, for instance: Pull me up on EVE-Kill (I don't see BClinic much different either).
Check out the isk efficiency on the all time menue. Looks great, eh? 12 bil damage done, 1 bil recieved, or thereabouts.
Good pvp'er right? Wrong, dude.
I've blown myself up flying into my own bombs, flown to Moons in LowSuck trying to escape, forgot and burned out modules with Over Heat (still do sometimes), closed when I shouldnt, fail to range when I should, jump into EC while buzzed thinking it's Ibura, try all kinds of hairbrained **** and fits, get raped by known and avoidable T3 camps in notorious systems trying failfit gank nonFotm, have long periods of inactivity, still get rattled on occaision and make posts like this which will probably get me podded by corpies, etc. So no, not really.
Better add an adendum  : What I can do is anticipate and follow orders (unless their stupid, or I misclick), be quiet in fleet (unless someone is annoying, or I'm bored), and finally have gained enough experience to sometimes see/feel the wrecking ball coming before it does.
But for me isk efficiency just really means I (and 3 or 4 hundred or so other people) managed to get in a blob that participated in carrier kill or two. That's all. You will see very few solo kills, a few small gang kills, and a bunch of of BaHaHaHa Whos Yer F'in Daddy ShuttleBoy! GateWhooring or YawnNullHugeAssBlob kills.
So tldr: yeah, it doesnt make much sense to me.
Regardless, there seems to be a fair consensus about the topic so I'd suggest Boards offer a different option at least but, meh, I'm too busy admiring old Carrier kills.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
- H.L. Mencken |
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