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Phroneo	Posted - 2008.04.05 17:13:00 - [1] Here is an interesting article I found on online behaviour and social control. http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/3604/fixing_online_gaming_idiocy_a_.php Basically, it talks about the rise of rude gamers, smack talk etc. For the purpoise of EVE, it could be extended to griefing and other forms of unsocial behaviour. In my opinion, the problem is anonymity and the lack of accountability for what one says and does. I think this lets average people become very rude or mean towards others. Personally I don't think it is such a problem in EVE though some people consider Goonswarm to be bad, I think it on average, adds some spice to this monotonous pizza. We need even more disruptions to teh world if you ask me... Less grief-like disruptions would be better of course to keep people less frustrated. I do see very unpolite responses to many threads which show a community very different to what first attracted me to EVE. Fortuntely, its easy to ignore these people and also avoid them when you join a good corp. Anyway, the main things I can think of which would benefit a lot of aspects of EVE is tagging alts. Perhaps even arranging a multiple account system so that you can only log in with one IP and thus having alt accounts linked with the one user too. This is probably an old idea though but it would make people more accountable. Do you all think that CCP should try to put some resources into encouraging better behaviour, co-operation and friendliness to n00bs? -- It may be that the old astrologers had the truth exactly reversed, when they believed that the stars controlled the destinies of men. The time may come when men control the destinies of stars. ACC
Everyone Dies Lucky Tampon	Posted - 2008.04.05 17:22:00 - [2] you fail at making links
Niccolado Starwalker	Posted - 2008.04.05 17:27:00 - [3] Edited by: Niccolado Starwalker on 05/04/2008 17:28:36 On the forums: Yes, they should encourage upholding the Forum rules. When it comes to gaming. "Unsocial behaviour and griefing" is allowed ingame, as long the game mechanics are not exploited by using bugs. But have in mind this is EVE. Griefing IS allowed to a certain extendt, and there is no rule whatsoever against people who have "unsocial behaviour" whatever that is. People are with other words allowed to be as social or unsocial they want to, as long the game mechanics are not exploited. And so it should be. We like EVE being ruthless. We like EVE being mercyless. We like EVE being painfull and we like to see people cry when they are sent to the cloning station. Also have in mind this is a game. And its intention is to be harsh. If you cant accept the game style it offers, the market "flows over" with other MMOGs Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. Originally by: Dianabolic Your tears are absolutely divine, like a fine fine wine, rolling down your cheeks until they flow down the river of LOL
Overwhelmed	Posted - 2008.04.05 17:39:00 - [4] I read the article. He makes some good points but the quick way to sum up his conflict with EVE: Quote: But if you donÆt design the social environment, your game will probably end up feeling like most do right now -- like the lawless territories of the Wild West. The writer seems to use FPS's as an example which are much, much worse than EVE... believe it or not. The only MMORPG he brings up has plenty of design to prevent ass-hattery. I would say more MMORPG's are like WoW than not in that respect. I have the general impression EVE is one of the few MMOs that is supposed to be like the lawless territories of the Wild West. That is up for debate though. ---------------------------------------------------------- Posting And You Disclaimer: This is a meta-game alt for meta-game discussions.
Phroneo	Posted - 2008.04.05 17:41:00 - [5] Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker Edited by: Niccolado Starwalker on 05/04/2008 17:28:36 On the forums: Yes, they should encourage upholding the Forum rules. When it comes to gaming. "Unsocial behaviour and griefing" is allowed ingame, as long the game mechanics are not exploited by using bugs. But have in mind this is EVE. Griefing IS allowed to a certain extendt, and there is no rule whatsoever against people who have "unsocial behaviour" whatever that is. People are with other words allowed to be as social or unsocial they want to, as long the game mechanics are not exploited. And so it should be. We like EVE being ruthless. We like EVE being mercyless. We like EVE being painfull and we like to see people cry when they are sent to the cloning station. Also have in mind this is a game. And its intention is to be harsh. If you cant accept the game style it offers, the market "flows over" with other MMOGs You know, I agree with you. The article mentions that the associated problems cause less people to come but that is one of EVE's draw cards. The easier things are the more jerks a game seems to attract too. It's nice to have a game where on average, there are more serious and mature people because of it though with some social control system, it would encourage more people to be mature. PS Sorry about the link... Not sure how to fix it :/ -- It may be that the old astrologers had the truth exactly reversed, when they believed that the stars controlled the destinies of men. The time may come when men control the destinies of stars. ACC
FatFreddy	Posted - 2008.04.05 18:08:00 - [6] Edited by: FatFreddy on 05/04/2008 18:08:34 Originally by: Phroneo PS Sorry about the link... Not sure how to fix it :/ Use tinyurl ;) http://tinyurl.com/3d54oe <- Link to the article
Overwhelmed	Posted - 2008.04.05 18:10:00 - [7] http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/3604/fixing_online_gaming_idiocy_a_.php Copy and paste that code LOL STOOPID NOOB ---------------------------------------------------------- Posting And You Disclaimer: This is a meta-game alt for meta-game discussions.
Miki Fin Independant Union of Rangers	Posted - 2008.04.05 20:01:00 - [8] Edited by: Miki Fin on 05/04/2008 20:01:40 Edited by: Miki Fin on 05/04/2008 20:01:20 Originally by: Phroneo Anyway, the main things I can think of which would benefit a lot of aspects of EVE is tagging alts. Perhaps even arranging a multiple account system so that you can only log in with one IP and thus having alt accounts linked with the one user too. This is probably an old idea though but it would make people more accountable. Stupid idea tbqh. I have 2 other members of my family playing eve on their own accounts from the same ip. Are we supposed to take turns or something?
Sparkinator	Posted - 2008.04.05 20:13:00 - [9] Edited by: Sparkinator on 05/04/2008 20:14:44 Edited by: Sparkinator on 05/04/2008 20:13:18 Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker Edited by: Niccolado Starwalker on 05/04/2008 17:28:36 And so it should be. We like EVE being ruthless. We like EVE being mercyless. We like EVE being painfull and we like to see people cry when they are sent to the cloning station. Also have in mind this is a game. And its intention is to be harsh. If you cant accept the game style it offers, the market "flows over" with other MMOGs Lol. This thread is filled with reasons why that article was written. No, EVE is not meant to be ruthless and harsh BECAUSE IT IS A GAME. It is meant to not be flowers and bunnies, but not how you described. YOU may like it that way, other's don't. Because it is a game, it shouldn't be. A lot of us come to play games to have fun, surprise surprise. Btw, if briefing becomes the goal, CCP will lose subscriptions. EVE is filled with children with their head stuck up their asses, what you all say is not fact. CCP is a business. EVE is a game, when it doesn't become fun, it starts failing. If CCP listened to the majority of people here, EVE would die in a month. Just because every post is replied with WoW-insults, and people trying to delude themselves they are big and bad in a game they take to seriously doesn't change reality. Some accountability would be nice, and you'd find the people who believe the game is somehow about surviving in the dark ages would not be so serious. --------------------------- Your neighborhood sociopath.
Feilamya Pelennor Swarm Scorched Earth.	Posted - 2008.04.05 20:34:00 - [10] Edited by: Feilamya on 05/04/2008 20:34:22 This article offers some nice ideas for FPS games, but EVE is lightyears beyond anything the author may have even imagined. Obviously he hasn't heard of EVE yet, which indicates poor research. Well, at least he has heard of WoW, which proofs that he has a lot of clue The social system of EVE is fine. It works so well that people use alts for posting even the most harmless opinions on the forums because they are afraid to compromise their ingame reputation. The system would work much better if alts were "fixed", but it works quite well even with alts being the way they are. Everyone still has a main, and in EVE you can't change your character like underwear as it is in most other MMOs.
Sparkinator Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.04.05 20:38:00 - [11] Originally by: Feilamya Edited by: Feilamya on 05/04/2008 20:34:22 This article offers some nice ideas for FPS games, but EVE is lightyears beyond anything the author may have even imagined. Obviously he hasn't heard of EVE yet, which indicates poor research. Well, at least he has heard of WoW, which proofs that he has a lot of clue The social system of EVE is fine. It works so well that people use alts for posting even the most harmless opinions on the forums because they are afraid to compromise their ingame reputation. The system would work much better if alts were "fixed", but it works quite well even with alts being the way they are. Everyone still has a main, and in EVE you can't change your character like underwear as it is in most other MMOs. This is actually my main :) If people are scared to post on their mains, well, looks like all the tough talk is just that. Talk. --------------------------- Your neighborhood sociopath.
Armoured C Globaltech Industries The ENTITY.	Posted - 2008.04.05 20:43:00 - [12] our corp / allaicne has a no smack talk in local as if a fight does intrude we believe that both parties will work increadibly hard to save there ships .... more on there end but tthey must work hard non the less
Inconstant Moon	Posted - 2008.04.05 20:57:00 - [13] A good article that CCP would do well to read. Trouble with the classic sandbox, is arsepipes do their business in it. Pretty soon you've got a bucket of faeces with sand in it. But then, if griefers really are CCP's intended niche, who am I to argue. -- CONCORD provides neither consequences nor safety.
Tim Dust	Posted - 2008.04.05 21:00:00 - [14] Hasn't griefing always been a part of the game? Don't get me wrong, sitting by a gate for 8 hours waiting to pop some noob isn't my idea of fun, but hasn't that sort of thing always been condoned by CCP? Games aren't always sunshine and roses.
Sparkinator	Posted - 2008.04.05 21:10:00 - [15] Originally by: Tim Dust Hasn't griefing always been a part of the game? Don't get me wrong, sitting by a gate for 8 hours waiting to pop some noob isn't my idea of fun, but hasn't that sort of thing always been condoned by CCP? Games aren't always sunshine and roses. Condoned? Or allowed? And to what point can it be easily countered? What about when it becomes normal to die in ships just traveling? Again, yea, it's not roses and butterflies. But general gameplay isn't, EVE has some of the most harsh death penalties and general game expenses. For example, I'm sure we all accept suicide ganking. But how about when it becomes normal? And what about the people who can afford to lose all the battleships they want? Not all of us can, PVP costs ISK. That and it doesn't help a large amount of the player-base stomps their feet and demands all the other children in the playground play their game :/ --------------------------- Your neighborhood sociopath.
Achran Dexx	Posted - 2008.04.05 21:12:00 - [16] Originally by: Inconstant Moon A good article that CCP would do well to read. Trouble with the classic sandbox, is arsepipes do their business in it. Pretty soon you've got a bucket of faeces with sand in it. But then, if griefers really are CCP's intended niche, who am I to argue. There is no 'intended niche' that CCP aimed for. It's just that crime actually PAYS in this game, which by a figure of speech does make the 'sandbox' look like a litterbox.
Traeon	Posted - 2008.04.05 21:14:00 - [17] Edited by: Traeon on 05/04/2008 21:14:12 Games where everybody can do everything by himself always have rude players. Games where you need others to get anywhere always have better group dynamics (more "social" players) Eve is special because you need others but there's still plenty left to **** off and even profit from it.
Nyabinghi	Posted - 2008.04.05 21:17:00 - [18] Edited by: Nyabinghi on 05/04/2008 21:18:06 In my opinion internet communication is the lowest form of communication. Person to person is the best method, followed by telephone, then hand written letters, then lastly internets. So you take a poor form of communication then add to it immunity from receiving a kick in the arse, which is quite likely to happen in RL if you shoot your mouth off like a little punk too much, and then add to that combative online games that breed antagonism and voila: birth of the "smacktard". On a side note I am sure if you played chess online or some other competitive but not combative game or played something more friendly-communal online you'd find people being a lot more mature in speech and manner. By nature FPS games and some MMOs like EVE tend to harbor and encourage the worse in people's nature. Which is why I am looking forward to games like LEGO online and LittleBigPlanet which look to be fun, creative and entertaining without all the antagonism and mean spiritedness you find in most online multiplayer games. *** Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Hannobaal	Posted - 2008.04.05 21:18:00 - [19] There's pretty much no such thing as "griefing" in Eve. There are very few tiny things that are considered grifing, and people can get banned for those things (like can baiting in newbie starting systems for example). Beyond that, it's all part of the game world. It's not meant to be pleasant.
Hannobaal	Posted - 2008.04.05 21:21:00 - [20] Originally by: Sparkinator No, EVE is not meant to be ruthless and harsh BECAUSE IT IS A GAME. It is meant to not be flowers and bunnies, but not how you described. YOU may like it that way, other's don't. The people who actually make this game disagree with you.
Sparkinator	Posted - 2008.04.05 21:28:00 - [21] Originally by: Hannobaal Originally by: Sparkinator No, EVE is not meant to be ruthless and harsh BECAUSE IT IS A GAME. It is meant to not be flowers and bunnies, but not how you described. YOU may like it that way, other's don't. The people who actually make this game disagree with you. So says you. They intended to make it more.."real" than other MMOs, but players like you who like in their own world have deluded themselves into believing the devs created a game the way they think you do. Tell me: when half the player base leaves because of griefing, what game will you play? Or...let's say you were smacked back into day 1 by a GM and tossed into low sec and not allowed to enter high sec. Wouldn't be as fun, would it? Don't trick yourself into thinking as many people as you enjoy being murdered and stripped of their ISK because you have more money than them. The level of "realism" is much less than you think. It would be stupid to make a game that endorses griefing, and you would do well to learn that when they say "surviving in a harsher environment you need to ask "compared to what? Compared to other MMOs. And they have done just that. They didn't say "we will eventually drive away normal human beings leaving only emos behind and go bankrupt." --------------------------- Your neighborhood sociopath.
Inconstant Moon	Posted - 2008.04.05 21:44:00 - [22] Originally by: Sparkinator They didn't say "we will eventually drive away normal human beings leaving only emos behind and go bankrupt." I think you meant emus - those players who love the taste of turd in their sandbox so much, they've got their heads buried in it. -- CONCORD provides neither consequences nor safety.
Hannobaal	Posted - 2008.04.05 21:47:00 - [23] Originally by: Sparkinator Originally by: Hannobaal Originally by: Sparkinator No, EVE is not meant to be ruthless and harsh BECAUSE IT IS A GAME. It is meant to not be flowers and bunnies, but not how you described. YOU may like it that way, other's don't. The people who actually make this game disagree with you. So says you. So says them. On this very forum. Many times. For example: CCP Wrangler: "EVE is a dark and harsh world, you're supposed to feel a bit worried and slightly angry when you log in, you're not supposed to feel like you're logging in to a happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures, that's what hello kitty online is for." Quote: Or...let's say you were smacked back into day 1 by a GM and tossed into low sec and not allowed to enter high sec. I started going out to 0.0 on my own and ratting in a Thorax by the third week or so of playing Eve. And I've spent the vast majority of my playing time since then in 0.0 or low sec. Yeah, I really don't think that would be a problem.
Ki An	Posted - 2008.04.05 21:49:00 - [24] Originally by: Sparkinator So says you. They intended to make it more.."real" than other MMOs, but players like you who like in their own world have deluded themselves into believing the devs created a game the way they think you do. Do you know that the devs have explicitly said, on these very forums, that Eve IS meant to be a cold and harsh universe? That seems to conflict with your argument of "says you". Originally by: Sparkinator Tell me: when half the player base leaves because of griefing, what game will you play? Or...let's say you were smacked back into day 1 by a GM and tossed into low sec and not allowed to enter high sec. Wouldn't be as fun, would it? Don't trick yourself into thinking as many people as you enjoy being murdered and stripped of their ISK because you have more money than them. Tell me, when did half the player base leave because of griefing? The actual facts state that Eve subscription has been ever growing since launch. But I'm sure the facts you draw out of your ass presents a better picture. Originally by: Sparkinator The level of "realism" is much less than you think. It would be stupid to make a game that endorses griefing, and you would do well to learn that when they say "surviving in a harsher environment you need to ask "compared to what? Compared to other MMOs. And they have done just that. They didn't say "we will eventually drive away normal human beings leaving only emos behind and go bankrupt." You know who's the emo? It's you. You are the emo. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Sparkinator	Posted - 2008.04.05 21:55:00 - [25] I'm not going to try to quote you guys, because you didn't read what I said. You turn "dark, cold harsh world" into "no one should live without being podded daily" EVE is a cold, harsh, dark world, and I said how. You translate that into much, much more than it is. Again, it is how the dev's intended it. They did a splendid job. I like how it is currently. I enjoy the slight paranoia. You guys don't seem capable of differentiating between EVE and BunnysOnline.com apparently. EVE is a dark, harsh world, but that is to add atmosphere. If you want to feel big and bad, go kill someone. This is a game. --------------------------- Your neighborhood sociopath.
RigelKentaurus	Posted - 2008.04.05 21:59:00 - [26] Originally by: Hannobaal CCP Wrangler: "EVE is a dark and harsh world, you're supposed to feel a bit worried and slightly angry when you log in, you're not supposed to feel like you're logging in to a happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures, that's what hello kitty online is for." != "you're supposed to become completely paranoid to the point you can't even help newbies in missions because you might fall into a trap, have to become a metagamer with scouts everywhere to do anything,etc..." _________ Someday, EVE may look like this.
Ki An	Posted - 2008.04.05 22:00:00 - [27] Originally by: Sparkinator I'm not going to try to quote you guys, because you didn't read what I said. You turn "dark, cold harsh world" into "no one should live without being podded daily" EVE is a cold, harsh, dark world, and I said how. You translate that into much, much more than it is. Again, it is how the dev's intended it. They did a splendid job. I like how it is currently. I enjoy the slight paranoia. You guys don't seem capable of differentiating between EVE and BunnysOnline.com apparently. EVE is a dark, harsh world, but that is to add atmosphere. If you want to feel big and bad, go kill someone. This is a game. What are you talking about? You are the one who's afraid of losing your pixels. If you get podded daily you must suck really bad or live in a really bad neighbourhood. I'd reccomend moving, but I'd really rather see you keep losing your stuff again and again. If you like it how it is, why the hell are you complaining? Why are you lashing out against players who are playing the game as intended? Why do you feel the need to go all psychobabble on someone just because he was better than you and killed you? Learn to love the war- and pvp game that Eve is or gtfo. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Hannobaal	Posted - 2008.04.05 22:01:00 - [28] Originally by: Sparkinator I'm not going to try to quote you guys, because you didn't read what I said. You turn "dark, cold harsh world" into "no one should live without being podded daily" Why would you get podded daily? Quote: EVE is a dark, harsh world, but that is to add atmosphere. I trying to find (with little luck) another quote (I think also for Wrangler, but I'm not absolutely sure) that says pretty much that Eve is not just meant to feel like a harsh game world, it's meant to actually be one. Quote: If you want to feel big and bad, go kill someone. This is a game. This is a game about make believe killing other people and their make believe space ships.
Lurana Lay	Posted - 2008.04.05 22:05:00 - [29] It's obvious that any lightly modded or uncontrolled group, particularly on the internet, will sink to the lowest common denominator.
Inconstant Moon Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.04.05 22:12:00 - [30] Originally by: Hannobaal I trying to find (with little luck) another quote (I think also for Wrangler... That wouldn't surprise me. Wrangler is the worst thing to happen to this game's community. I can't imagine how he got employed; he must be someone's special nephew. I have no respect for him at all. -- CONCORD provides neither consequences nor safety.

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