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Fixing Online Gaming Idiocy

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Sparkinator Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.04.06 04:44:00 - [61] Originally by: AndrewRyan Sparkinator = Victim of greifing, Want a hug? I've actually only been "griefed" once, and it wasn't really a griefing. Either way he payed for it with his corpse. I'm very happy that I can get anyone I want killed on a whim =) Although I would like to know why people seem to keep thinking me, or anyone in this thread, have ever been subject to that stuff. The original topic was about asshatery. --------------------------- Your neighborhood sociopath.
Inconstant Moon	Posted - 2008.04.06 10:57:00 - [62] Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: Barbelo Valentinian Originally by: Overwhelmed If every player who whined for CCP to do something actually formed an anti-griefer corp, the entire universe would have something to fear. It might yet happen. It would fall apart when they try to fight a fleet battle with 200 drakes against any competent 0.0 alliance. But why would they want to do that? The problem isn't in 0.0 - anything goes in 0.0 and the mechanisms are there for it to be properly player-policed. The problem is Empire where the game rules act against players moderating each other's behaviour. Empire game rules promote asshattery cos Mr F Wad plus gang are allowed to loiter with intent while Concord protects them, right up until the moment they open fire. -- CONCORD provides neither consequences nor safety.
Erotic Irony	Posted - 2008.04.06 10:59:00 - [63] Originally by: Inconstant Moon cos Mr F Wad ___ Eve Players are not very smart. Support Killmail Overhaul
Ki An Filiolus Of Bellum	Posted - 2008.04.06 11:08:00 - [64] Originally by: Inconstant Moon But why would they want to do that? The problem isn't in 0.0 - anything goes in 0.0 and the mechanisms are there for it to be properly player-policed. The problem is Empire where the game rules act against players moderating each other's behaviour. Empire game rules promote asshattery cos Mr F Wad plus gang are allowed to loiter with intent while Concord protects them, right up until the moment they open fire. Solution: Remove Concord. Make all of Eve 0.0. No more 'griefing'. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
feiht'd'ero Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.04.06 11:12:00 - [65] Originally by: Phroneo In my opinion, Do you all think that CCP should try to put some resources into encouraging better behaviour, co-operation and friendliness to n00bs? I did not bother reading the 3 pages that followed this although I did read the OP. first OP your opinion is yours why thrust it at me via this medium ? I was fooled into this thread with a nifty title only to be hoodwinked by another IMO thread. secondly the new players of eve should petition you for grieving them and calling them names like n00bs. Quick question, what do YOU consider grieving ?
Lag Hon Lag Hon Security	Posted - 2008.04.06 11:29:00 - [66] While a lot of points in the article hold true Eve doesnt fit fully into that category. Whatever action you take there is alway the possibility of consequences. In other games Ive played if someone steals from you in a non PvP area there isnt diddly you can do about it, in Eve you have the rights to take action on the matter. The communication system in Eve allows you to block/ignore anyone who offends you. In the majority of Eve space anyone bothering you had better be better armed than you or know how to outrun you. Eve is a harsh and competitive game but it isnt absoloute FPS where the only object of the game is to shoot someone else. Eve provides many alternative playstyles within the overall competitive environment and all of these playstyles require a good degree of thought, planning and focus. While I have encountered some rather abrasive individuals in my travels none have been as bad as some of the mental paupers I have encountered in other online games. Eve is not an instant gratification game by design and as a result tends to weed out the those that are lower on the MMO foodchain. Anyone who survives more than a month in Eve knows to carry a big gun or keep your mouth shut. Quote: There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom. Against that power governments, and tyrants, and armies can not stand. G'Kar
Doonoo Boonoo	Posted - 2008.04.06 13:25:00 - [67] Originally by: Inconstant Moon The problem is Empire where the game rules act against players moderating each other's behaviour. Empire game rules promote asshattery cos Mr F Wad plus gang are allowed to loiter with intent while Concord protects them, right up until the moment they open fire. Hire Mercs to dec Mr F wads corp,Have people suicide gank Mr F wad,war dec Mr F Wad yourself.Report Mr F Wad if he is genuinly griefing or behaving in a manner which is offensive. If you are having trouble expressing yourself it's best not to resort to name calling or trying to Demonise other players.It just makes you look very,very bitter.
Phroneo	Posted - 2008.04.06 13:46:00 - [68] Originally by: feiht'd'ero Originally by: Phroneo In my opinion, Do you all think that CCP should try to put some resources into encouraging better behaviour, co-operation and friendliness to n00bs? I did not bother reading the 3 pages that followed this although I did read the OP. first OP your opinion is yours why thrust it at me via this medium ? I was fooled into this thread with a nifty title only to be hoodwinked by another IMO thread. secondly the new players of eve should petition you for grieving them and calling them names like n00bs. Quick question, what do YOU consider grieving ? I read an interesting article and decided to ask the EVE community a question. While at it I stated my opinion. I do not see how I am thrusting my opinion on anyone or how I deserve any hostility... Anyway, to answer your question, griefing to me is attacking other people, ones who have little chance of retaliating, just to hurt them, the human player. The WIRED article in another thread contains a quote which shows how goons, or at least some, do what they do just to devastate the player behind the avatar. The worst thing I saw is when they posted some silly thread threatening a player and saying he has basically been targeted by them to have a miserable existence in EVE. Pirating and all that in EVE seems fair game as it is a harsh PVP game so griefing isn't an appropriate term for that I guess. However, if someone targets a specific person for no reason and aims to make their game experience miserable, that is griefing. I would like to say that this thread was not supposed to be about griefing per se. It was more about encouraging repercussions for actions and hopefully more mature behavior (though this would include less griefing of the type I mentioned). I was hoping for a mature serious discussion but this appears unlikely. -- It may be that the old astrologers had the truth exactly reversed, when they believed that the stars controlled the destinies of men. The time may come when men control the destinies of stars. ACC
Inconstant Moon	Posted - 2008.04.06 14:10:00 - [69] Originally by: Doonoo Boonoo Hire Mercs to dec Mr F wads corp,Have people suicide gank Mr F wad,war dec Mr F Wad yourself.Probe Mr F Wads missions and steal his loot.Steal his Ore/flip his can if he mines.Report Mr F Wad if he is genuinly griefing or behaving in a manner which is offensive. With the exception of war-dec'ing, all your suggestions are based on activities that are either meta-gaming or are a form of asshattery. Suggesting that a person become an asshat to counter the asshats is not really constructive. Originally by: Doonoo Boonoo If you are having trouble expressing yourself it's best not to resort to name calling or trying to Demonise other players.It just makes you look very,very bitter. Read the article linked in the OP. It is a term used there, and in the spirit of debating the points in the article, I used the same term here. As for having trouble expressing myself, suffice it to say that glass houses tend to be quite fragile. -- CONCORD provides neither consequences nor safety.
feiht'd'ero	Posted - 2008.04.06 14:13:00 - [70] Originally by: Phroneo Originally by: feiht'd'ero Originally by: Phroneo In my opinion, Do you all think that CCP should try to put some resources into encouraging better behaviour, co-operation and friendliness to n00bs? I did not bother reading the 3 pages that followed this although I did read the OP. first OP your opinion is yours why thrust it at me via this medium ? I was fooled into this thread with a nifty title only to be hoodwinked by another IMO thread. secondly the new players of eve should petition you for grieving them and calling them names like n00bs. Quick question, what do YOU consider grieving ? I read an interesting article and decided to ask the EVE community a question. While at it I stated my opinion. I do not see how I am thrusting my opinion on anyone or how I deserve any hostility... Anyway, to answer your question, griefing to me is attacking other people, ones who have little chance of retaliating, just to hurt them, the human player. The WIRED article in another thread contains a quote which shows how goons, or at least some, do what they do just to devastate the player behind the avatar. The worst thing I saw is when they posted some silly thread threatening a player and saying he has basically been targeted by them to have a miserable existence in EVE. Pirating and all that in EVE seems fair game as it is a harsh PVP game so griefing isn't an appropriate term for that I guess. However, if someone targets a specific person for no reason and aims to make their game experience miserable, that is griefing. I would like to say that this thread was not supposed to be about griefing per se. It was more about encouraging repercussions for actions and hopefully more mature behavior (though this would include less griefing of the type I mentioned). I was hoping for a mature serious discussion but this appears unlikely. My point was that there are many types of griefing you yourself ended your OP by griefing. who decides what is griefing? and the level of grief being applied. before you can counter it you have to understand it at all levels
Briefing Gitch Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.04.06 16:01:00 - [71] Originally by: Inconstant Moon Originally by: Doonoo Boonoo Hire Mercs to dec Mr F wads corp,Have people suicide gank Mr F wad,war dec Mr F Wad yourself.Probe Mr F Wads missions and steal his loot.Steal his Ore/flip his can if he mines.Report Mr F Wad if he is genuinly griefing or behaving in a manner which is offensive. With the exception of war-dec'ing, all your suggestions are based on activities that are either meta-gaming or are a form of asshattery. Suggesting that a person become an asshat to counter the asshats is not really constructive. hurr hurr...welcome to eve you must be new..hurr hurr
Morcam Eve's Brothers of Destiny Free Trade Zone.	Posted - 2008.04.06 17:40:00 - [72] Go back to WoW n00b!!11!!! Waiiit a minute...
Xyn Rhais Tessaract	Posted - 2008.04.06 17:51:00 - [73] The problem with the game is that the regulating mechanisms for it's intended "space anarchism" don't function. The game is not supposed to be about building isk piles in stations, but it's not supposed to be a newbie shooter either. A natural dependence between the industrial and combat side is supposed to make people follow their interests and limit their griefing. Sadly alts really killed that concept dead and the decision to allow them will always haunt the game. The long-term conseuquences of one's action that are supposed to control behaviour are simply gone. CCP didn't initially want any Concord because hey, you know people that shoot the people that make ships will run out of ships. But that dosen't happen when there is no way to tell if the people who buy the ships are the same as the ones that steal from the ones that make them. When a person dosen't have to make hard carrier choices because he can do everything in the game at the same time. When the person that is a wanted criminal can at the same time be a member of the corporation that fights crime. If you take the Great Internet ******* Theory, the reasons EvE has so many, is because it allows both anonimity and audience. Now you can't do anything about the audience since it's a MMORPG. But you can and should do something about anonimity by forcing people to adopt just one identity ingame and on the forums.
Barbelo Valentinian Liberty Corporation	Posted - 2008.04.06 18:08:00 - [74] Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Inconstant Moon But why would they want to do that? The problem isn't in 0.0 - anything goes in 0.0 and the mechanisms are there for it to be properly player-policed. The problem is Empire where the game rules act against players moderating each other's behaviour. Empire game rules promote asshattery cos Mr F Wad plus gang are allowed to loiter with intent while Concord protects them, right up until the moment they open fire. Solution: Remove Concord. Make all of Eve 0.0. No more 'griefing'. Sure, that would be one kind of solution, but I think the problem with that solution from CCP's point of view is that it would lower subscriptions somewhat and EVE would drop to a steady "hardcore" stream of subscribers. It would still be a substantial game with a solid subscriber base, but CCP want the game to grow. (And in business, as I'm sure you know, to stand still is to stagnate. That's the PvP game of business.) For you to want only 100% committed, almost "military" players to play the game is understandable, but there aren't enough of those to bulk up the numbers of the game to the level CCP seems to be aiming for. ***** "To wake up is to wake the world up" - D.E. Harding
Val Vympel Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.04.06 19:09:00 - [75] Originally by: Xyn Rhais The problem with the game is that the regulating mechanisms for it's intended "space anarchism" don't function. The game is not supposed to be about building isk piles in stations, but it's not supposed to be a newbie shooter either. A natural dependence between the industrial and combat side is supposed to make people follow their interests and limit their griefing. Sadly alts really killed that concept dead and the decision to allow them will always haunt the game. The long-term conseuquences of one's action that are supposed to control behaviour are simply gone. CCP didn't initially want any Concord because hey, you know people that shoot the people that make ships will run out of ships. But that dosen't happen when there is no way to tell if the people who buy the ships are the same as the ones that steal from the ones that make them. When a person dosen't have to make hard carrier choices because he can do everything in the game at the same time. When the person that is a wanted criminal can at the same time be a member of the corporation that fights crime. If you take the Great Internet ******* Theory, the reasons EvE has so many, is because it allows both anonimity and audience. Now you can't do anything about the audience since it's a MMORPG. But you can and should do something about anonimity by forcing people to adopt just one identity ingame and on the forums. Agreed....good post 1.ONE player 2.ONE account 3.ONE character 4.PERIOD The price I would pay to play a game that would adopt and enforce the four step policy above would be....? I know my limit...what would yours be?
Phroneo Southern Cross Incorporated Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.07 14:41:00 - [76] Yeah I naturally agree with the post about the one character and account. In addition to the benefits outlined, I think it would make EVE a LOT more immersive and special. The moment you are doing multiple alts/accounts to have an edge changes it from an MMORPG to an MMOG where you try to pwn everyone. It also kills immersion. You can't pretend taht someone is another pilot in space but just someone trying to pwn you. Gametheory would then predict that trying to RP would be a stupid decision and hence everyone either loses ISK or the immersion. I don't know if this is a problem but I know that I would personally prefer the immersive world with long-term consequences. AS for the griefing definition, I don't know if it is me who doesn't get it or if the definition is being intentionally stretched in order to make me appear ignorant. Regardless of the term, I think it is very bad if someone's aim in a game is to ruin it or others' experience of it. -- It may be that the old astrologers had the truth exactly reversed, when they believed that the stars controlled the destinies of men. The time may come when men control the destinies of stars. ACC
Nyabinghi	Posted - 2008.04.07 14:59:00 - [77] Yep I agree too. Either remove alts or put them on their own server. I'm pretty sure the attraction of an enforceable rule set will bring in more than enough players to make up for the players who quit because they can no longer circumvent the game mechanics. *** Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Roy Batty68	Posted - 2008.04.07 15:03:00 - [78] About Alts... They're here to stay. They aren't ever going to yank out the secondary characters on accounts or disallow people having multiple accounts. So banging our heads about 'mistakes of the past' isn't really productive. So what can be done for Eve at this point? Shrug our shoulders and say, "too late, it's too screwed up to do anything about now"? I don't think so. I think we need to keep nudging CCP to keep making more and more of this kind of data public so that we can do our own investigations of who might be an alt of who. That's basically the only way to overcome the alt effect in a game like this. Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Primnproper Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.04.07 16:09:00 - [79] FFS Originally by: "People who don't want to play eve they want to play a nice fluffy version" uhhh its the alts, everyones griefing me, wrangler may say its supposed to be a cold and harsh game but i disagree Well guess what here you guys are the asshats, because all you ever do is try and change the game that the rest of us knowingly signed up for, griefing every player who read the litterature about eve and thought "yes thats exactly what I'm looking for". Personally I can't wait for jumpgate:emo and all the other more 'friendly' space mmos come out cus then hopefully you'll go and play them and leave the rest of us here to enjoy our dark, gritty and evil universe.
Inconstant Moon Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.04.07 17:13:00 - [80] Originally by: Roy Batty68 About Alts... I think we need to keep nudging CCP to keep making more and more of this kind of data public so that we can do our own investigations of who might be an alt of who. I had a CRAZY idea that killmails could list all three characters on the attacker's account. "You were killed by xxx AKA yyy AKA zzz." Yes I know, even the thought of such accountability makes some people quake in their lill fluffy boots... here, have a lollipop, I'm sorry I scared you... -- CONCORD provides neither consequences nor safety.
Roy Batty68 Immortal Dead	Posted - 2008.04.07 18:17:00 - [81] Originally by: Inconstant Moon Originally by: Roy Batty68 About Alts... I think we need to keep nudging CCP to keep making more and more of this kind of data public so that we can do our own investigations of who might be an alt of who. I had a CRAZY idea that killmails could list all three characters on the attacker's account. "You were killed by xxx AKA yyy AKA zzz." Yes I know, even the thought of such accountability makes some people quake in their lill fluffy boots... here, have a lollipop, I'm sorry I scared you... Nah, that's too easy. You should have to work for the info, maybe even new skills involved. And depending on the sensitivity of the info, perhaps even risk it backfiring on you (free wardec, killrights, etc) if your hacking around for other player's data gets noticed. I would in no way go for any right-click, show info sort of ease. That would be pretty bogus imo and I would rather it just stay as it is if it were to be that easy and risk free. Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Inconstant Moon Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.04.07 18:25:00 - [82] Originally by: Roy Batty68 You should have to work for the info, maybe even new skills involved. And depending on the sensitivity of the info, perhaps even risk it backfiring on you (free wardec, killrights, etc) if your hacking around for other player's data gets noticed. Oh, I like that. Kind of an 'investigation' skill. Keeps it in-game and all nice and RP too. -- CONCORD provides neither consequences nor safety.
Phroneo	Posted - 2008.04.07 18:45:00 - [83] Edited by: Phroneo on 07/04/2008 18:49:11 Originally by: Inconstant Moon Originally by: Roy Batty68 You should have to work for the info, maybe even new skills involved. And depending on the sensitivity of the info, perhaps even risk it backfiring on you (free wardec, killrights, etc) if your hacking around for other player's data gets noticed. Oh, I like that. Kind of an 'investigation' skill. Keeps it in-game and all nice and RP too. Great idea. Someone should post it in the ideas forum. It would mean that the concept of alts would need to be introduced into the game. Though still, if CCP were willing I'd prefer to just be able to freely know who is an alt of who. Not that I'd find this useful but I'm sure the more experienced players would. Both these solutions would of course introduce a class division in the community as those who pay for another account could still continue doing what they are doing... Perhaps we could introduce some transaction journal hacking to discover alts that way. Even multiple accounts where one is a pirate could possibly be discovered by looking through such transaction histories. E: This could also give corps more power to discovering spies and keep anyone doing bad things or associating with people who do bad things on their toes. -- It may be that the old astrologers had the truth exactly reversed, when they believed that the stars controlled the destinies of men. The time may come when men control the destinies of stars. ACC

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