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Guillame Herschel
The Graduates
Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2008.06.09 23:36:00 -
[31]
 Originally by: Admiral Madbull
Who on his right mind would design a ship that has ALL its bonuses for projectile and only use 2 of 5 hislots for that bonus.
Someone who realizes the Dramiel would need an OMGWTFPNWNZOR amount of power grid to fit an entire rack of artillery, and that a double-damage bonus to get more work out of fewer turrets is a better way to go on a small fast ship.
That's who.
-- The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then --
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Shiken Kan
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Posted - 2008.06.09 23:56:00 -
[32]
Actually i think the dramiel isn't that bad. It can dish out some nasty damage (for a frig), it's downside is more the lack of a mid to be really good but then if you pair it with a daredevil (as i think is intended) both ships make a great team.
The problem is just that all faction frigs are outperformed by t2 ships and the rediculous pricetag useful fittings have, so there isn't much reason to fly faction frigs but the looks.
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corElement
hirr
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Posted - 2008.06.30 09:23:00 -
[33]
Edited by: corElement on 30/06/2008 09:23:56
once again I open up my drammy and see its still a pile of GOO.
useless ship just get rid of it or fix it.
IT CANT EVEN FIX THE EXTRA LAUNCHERS WITHOUT TAKING OUT THE MWD OR PUTTING RIGS ON IT WTF ? |
Nian Banks
Minmatar
Berserkers of Aesir
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Posted - 2008.07.01 04:47:00 -
[34]
Mmm still no love for what amounts to be the worst ship in game basically, Nicest looking but my gosh its painful to see something so beautiful having such ugly fittings. |
Admiral Madbull
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Posted - 2008.07.31 11:58:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Admiral Madbull on 31/07/2008 11:59:43
Originally by: corElement
useless ship just get rid of it or fix it.
IT CANT EVEN FIX THE EXTRA LAUNCHERS WITHOUT TAKING OUT THE MWD OR PUTTING RIGS ON IT WTF ?
ehh, what ever you do CCP DONT scrap this ship, it should win a design award, its just that damn awesome looking, please fix it!
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Cpt Branko
Surge.
NIght's Dawn
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Posted - 2008.07.31 12:06:00 -
[36]
Yep, desperately needs a fix.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
P'uck
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Posted - 2008.07.31 14:08:00 -
[37]
Edited by: P''uck on 31/07/2008 14:08:32
i think 3 turrets would be fair, also who really cares if faction frigs are a bit overpowered? they cost a shitload of money, and all it needs to kill it is a few volleys (if even), from a medium sized ship with good tracking.
I think overbalancing faction frigs into the "too good" direction wouldnt hurt anybody... well maybe, some new guys in minor plexes 
Not saying the proposed dramiel change would make it overpowered, just saying, I dont think we need to be THAT careful about a friggin t1 frig, even if it has 3 bonuses.
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Rufus Britton
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
The ENTITY.
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Posted - 2008.07.31 14:21:00 -
[38]
The best way to boost faction frigs would be to improve their resistances, not to the level of t2 because then they'd be overpowered. If the resistances were somewhere between t1 and t2 they would be a viable choice for pvp, it depends whether you want higher resistances or the extra slots for whatever kind of pvp you're doing.
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Zengai
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Posted - 2008.08.21 06:03:00 -
[39]
Yeah why not make the faction frigs better then t2?
when it comes to equipment thefaction equipment is usually better then t2, so why not make the frigs the same?
They been needing love for a long time.... |
Thirzarr
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Posted - 2008.08.21 07:32:00 -
[40]
I don't even think it needs more then two turrets. Its ok, because it has its special ability. So it fires for 2.5 guns and 3 missile launchers. Thats pretty good firepower. BUT the fitting is really really too tight. Honestly, a little more PG CPU would make this a nice frig.
On the other hand - it looks so damn cool, everyone would want one. :D |
arbalesttom
Caldari
Glauxian Brothers
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Posted - 2008.08.21 07:59:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Lance Fighter
I can agree.
When a ship has more bonuses to a particular gun than guns it can fit, there is a problem.
So.....the dominix and ishtar are broken as well b'cuz i cannot fit more than 1x neutron blaster cannon II on it? |
Iron Wraith
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Posted - 2008.08.21 12:41:00 -
[42]
ok, what if we think of her as a t1 interceptor? then she stacks up very well
my ranis does 1.5km/s with an AB, my dram does 1km/s, which feels right for the difference in training needed to fly the ships.
my dram also does ceptor like dps, less than my ranis but more than other ceptors.
and my dram can solo lvl3 missions with a few catches. webbers would probably get her killed and i doubt she could break the tank on an NPC HAC.
so try her out with AC's and rockets, slap an ab on then fit the rest for passive shield tank. lvl1 missions are easy with any fit, lvl2 missions work with my fit and lvl3's work when u rig the shield tank.
would i like a 3rd gun? hell yeah! but i still think she's a good ship regardless of the freaky slot layout and bonuses. |
Baron Primus
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Posted - 2008.08.21 12:59:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Baron Primus on 21/08/2008 12:59:13
CYNABAL CYNABAL CYNABAL CYNABAL CYNABAL CYNABAL CYNABAL CYNABAL CYNABAL CYNABAL CYNABAL CYNABAL CYNABAL CYNABAL CYNABAL CYNABAL CYNABAL CYNABAL CYNABAL CYNABAL CYNABAL CYNABAL CYNABAL CYNABAL CYNABAL CYNABAL CYNABAL CYNABAL CYNABAL CYNABAL CYNABAL CYNABAL CYNABAL CYNABAL CYNABAL CYNABAL CYNABAL CYNABAL CYNABAL CYNABAL CYNABAL CYNABAL CYNABAL CYNABAL CYNABAL CYNABAL CYNABAL CYNABAL CYNABAL CYNABAL CYNABAL CYNABAL CYNABAL CYNABAL CYNABAL CYNABAL CYNABAL CYNABAL CYNABAL CYNABAL CYNABAL CYNABAL CYNABAL CYNABAL CYNABAL CYNABAL CYNABAL CYNABAL CYNABAL CYNABAL CYNABAL CYNABAL CYNABAL CYNABAL CYNABAL CYNABAL CYNABAL CYNABAL CYNABAL CYNABAL CYNABAL CYNABAL CYNABAL CYNABAL |
Xasz
AnTi.
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Posted - 2008.08.21 16:04:00 -
[44]
The majority of faction cruisers/frigates need a lookover. Moreso frigates. A triple gun bonused ship with less guns than missiles is not well designed, and it fits worse than a Rifter, a t1 frigate worth 200k..
-1 Missile -> +1 Turret
-1 High -> +1 Mid
Up the fittings to at least that of a t1 rifter.
Then at least give it utility as a glorified rifter, if anything. Sadly, these ships are destined to be ignored.  |
Boz Well
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.08.21 16:48:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Iron Wraith
ok, what if we think of her as a t1 interceptor? then she stacks up very well
my ranis does 1.5km/s with an AB, my dram does 1km/s, which feels right for the difference in training needed to fly the ships.
my dram also does ceptor like dps, less than my ranis but more than other ceptors.
and my dram can solo lvl3 missions with a few catches. webbers would probably get her killed and i doubt she could break the tank on an NPC HAC.
so try her out with AC's and rockets, slap an ab on then fit the rest for passive shield tank. lvl1 missions are easy with any fit, lvl2 missions work with my fit and lvl3's work when u rig the shield tank.
would i like a 3rd gun? hell yeah! but i still think she's a good ship regardless of the freaky slot layout and bonuses.
So it does shitty inty damage, but unlike an inty, it isn't fast. Wow. Sounds pretty shitty for the pricetag. As far as missioning in a frigate, please. Running low level missions is the most worthless thing you could possibly do with this ship, heh, and while it might be fun for ****ing around, it says absolutely nothing about whether the ship is balanced/worth the pricetag.
I agree with the earlier poster who said that they should balance these things on the 'too strong' side, as it's hard to imagine a buff to these little frigates that would really impact anything substantial in the game. |
Baron Primus
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Posted - 2008.08.21 17:22:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Admiral Madbull
Originally by: Nian Banks
I always hoped that ccp would introduce the ability to hire npc pilots and gain yourself 2-4 npc wingmen that obey your commands like drones but use frigate ships you supply, fitted with equipment they can use. Making it only possible to have them as wing men if your in a frigate yourself.
That would have been an awsome feature!
/signed |
Falcon Troy
Caldari
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.08.21 19:26:00 -
[47]
I think what people forget is that frigates aren't survivable. Anything with a web and drones can kill a frigate. That is why Faction battleships are useful, simply because they have enough hitpoints to survive engagements because they are at the top of the food chain. Faction frigates could be loads better than a T1 frigate in terms of firepower, speed, and/or defenses but it will still be too fragile to be worth the cost.
Two things need to happen in order for faction frigates to be viable, and frigates in general for pvp:
1. Bring down the LP cost.
2. Really enhance the size difference compared to larger ship classes, I.E. almost requiring destroyers or other frigates to be used to counter them. It's really stupid seeing large ships so easily take down ships of smaller size when they should be doing the opposite, attacking larger ships and using their size as an advantage there.
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Hai. |
Iron Wraith
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Posted - 2008.08.21 22:47:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Boz Well
So it does shitty inty damage, but unlike an inty, it isn't fast. Wow. Sounds pretty shitty for the pricetag. As far as missioning in a frigate, please. Running low level missions is the most worthless thing you could possibly do with this ship, heh, and while it might be fun for ****ing around, it says absolutely nothing about whether the ship is balanced/worth the pricetag.
I agree with the earlier poster who said that they should balance these things on the 'too strong' side, as it's hard to imagine a buff to these little frigates that would really impact anything substantial in the game.
ok, a quick comparison, with a full rack of t2 200mm AC's and t2 rocket launchers and a t2 AB you get these results:
rifter:
99 dps, 1033 m/s
dram:
117 dps, 1120 m/s
(with my skills and named launchers i get 100dps and 1093m/s)
stiletto:
71 dps, 1404 m/s
claw:
116 dps, 1519 m/s
for a t1 frig i'd say thats a good result, in a ship that can have 50dps passive shield tank (43 with my skills). maybe i'm out of touch with the game, but i am impressed with being able to do lvl3 missions in this ship. i expect it with my assault frigs, what with their solid tanks, my retri has a max tank of 61 or 57 with my skills, although thats with no tanking rigs, the dram has 3 core purgers. but getting a t1 frig with solid dps, good speed and a solid tank? thats a good result in my books.
as for the bang for buck ratio, well i never expected her to have good value for money. how can you get good value for money from a ship that doesnt have a BPo for mass production?
i dont expect faction frigs to be better than t2 frigs, that goes against the training time requirements. i do expect them to sit somewhere between t1 and t2, which the dram in the role i tried her in seems to do very well at.
just like a kronos is a better mission running blaster boat than the navy mega or vindicator, the faction ship is between the t1 and t2 ships. for pvp we all know how much of a bonus that 5th slot is, the vindi has a nice luxury there, but for straight out slugging though missions its not as good as the t2 ship. and lets face it, the vast majority of faction ship pilots will use them for pve not for pvp. far more people can afford a ship for a controlled fight than they can for the uncertainty of pvp.
nope, the dram is a nice little ship and doesn't need a boost, it just looks a little freaky on paper before you get her set up and out in the killing fields.
Because sometimes you just have to go back to your roots:
[2005.02.20 01:08:03] (combat) Your Civilian Light Electron Blaster perfectly strikes Serpentis Smuggler, wrecking for 20.3 damage |
Boz Well
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.08.22 00:42:00 -
[49]
The fact you're using frigates for level 3 missions and running missions in a blaster boat makes me somewhat question your opinion on these things.  But regardless, what exactly is the role of a frigate like this? You're comparing it to an afterburner fitted inty, but at least I personally never fit an AB on an inty. Fit the ships with MWD, and you'll see a more noticeable difference in speed. And when you factor in the price, and consider that it's barely better than a rifter, and has no real role, what exactly is the point? Factor in insurance, and you can buy a lot of ruptures for the price of that one dramiel, or a helluva lot of rifters. T2/faction ships are never really cost efficient, but it could at least have a noticeable role or be at least a good bit stronger than a rifter.
Also, saying that most people use faction ships for PVE is somewhat correct. However, that's only really true of battleships. The only use of faction cruisers/frigates, aside from a few exceptions (fleet stabber, at least until nano nerf obliterates it), is as a good looking shuttle or if you're bored. ****ing around in low level missions with a ship that's not competent at doing anything does not make the ship useful, heh.
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Iron Wraith
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Posted - 2008.08.22 11:15:00 -
[50]
so far i've ground the lvl3's in blaster boats (rax then brutix when that was released), then moved over to pulse laser dual rep tanked amarr boats (used the apoc before the abaddon existed) for the lvl 4's. i then moved out to 0.0, blew all my isk on pvp, took a years break to swing a sword then returned. my retribution earnt me the isk to buy a myrmadon which i tried passive shield tanking with. that earnt me the isk for an abaddon which can dual rep tank better than an apoc with pulse lasers (before the range buff) which in turn earnt me the isk for the kronos that gave me the key to go back to my blaster career and run the lvl4's with my neutron blasters. it might not be faster than a rail boat but when your sitting on over 1000 dps who cares? i know the best way to grind the isk (dps tank, not my heavy tanks or close range ships) but i also know that having fun is important. and for me that means running the rats down with close range guns. so if that makes me a noob who doesnt know how to fly a ship than fair enough.
i also insist on getting some combat for each faction ship i collect, which tends to revolve around lvl1 and lvl2 missions to keep them safe. the dram did so well that i rigged her up and tried a lvl3 mission, and it did well at that too! maybe i need to do the same with a rifter for a true comparison, but getting a frig trough several lvl3's still impresses me.
and if the vast majority of faction ships will only be used in pve what use is an mwd? does every ship have to have a unique roll in pvp to be worthy of existence? or can some ships just be there for fun?
despite having a clear dps and speed advantage over the rifter for missions you still think its crap? maybe i need to re-run the comparison with tanks included to see if any of those other ships have room for a dmg mod or speed mod, that could change the playing field a lot.
so according to your opinion a lvl3 running frig is branded incompetent because a battle cruiser can do the same? should that not mean that the frig is more competent because it can survive in an environment designed to challenge a battle cruiser?
your arguments seem to revolve around the ships use in pvp, and yet you also state that most faction cruisers and frigs are just station spinning toys or shuttles. so from that i can assume that you believe all faction cruisers and frigs need some buffing. i cant see how you will ever be satisfied. the ships will always be between t1 and t2, and unless CCP release BPo's they will always have a high price making the t2 ships more powerful and better value.
to give faction ships more power than t2 ships would be to break the reward for the higher training needed to fly t2. to bring the price of a faction ship down to be competitive would mean getting a far greater supply, which would ruin the charm of their rareness.
nahh, i cant see changes like that going any where good. i chose to have fun in mine, and for that job the dram works very well.
Because sometimes you just have to go back to your roots:
[2005.02.20 01:08:03] (combat) Your Civilian Light Electron Blaster perfectly strikes Serpentis Smuggler, wrecking for 20.3 damage |
Rel'k Bloodlor
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Posted - 2008.08.23 14:28:00 -
[51]
Rejoice there is a use for faction frigs. Plexing. They count as t1. So were a harpy can't go a worm can. Now I know the damiel needs loving. But the gal/min get 2 ships so both can't be perfect. And were are the min/cal & amr/gal ships?
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FT Diomedes
Gallente
Ductus Exemplo
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Posted - 2008.08.23 17:44:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Rel'k Bloodlor
And were are the min/cal & amr/gal ships?
These are the ships I want to see! Especially Amarr/Gallente ships - armor resistance bonus + turret tracking bonus, please.
------------
Improvize. Adapt. Overcome. |
Kai Lae
Gallente
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.08.23 22:01:00 -
[53]
/signed
Never had one, but the highslot layout is just ludicrous.
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Voxam
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Posted - 2008.10.30 17:04:00 -
[54]
Agreed,they should really do something about this ship
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Shaddn Arakh
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Posted - 2008.10.30 17:17:00 -
[55]
I totally agree -- there is absolutely no point in getting any faction frig/cruiser except for e-peen reasons. They need some attention!
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Miss KillSome
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.10.30 19:00:00 -
[56]
i support OP
-----
TCODA corporation is recruiting!
TCODA is awesome! |
RedSplat
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2008.10.30 19:52:00 -
[57]
Have a Dramiel. Love its looks. Hate its slot layout.
5% V bonus instead of tracking and 3 turrets 2 launcher layout along with a little more pg and cpu would make it a lovely boat.
But tbqfh as it stands at around 40 mil a pop its never going to be anything more than e-peen inflation.
tl;dr Faction ships need to have prices in-line with t2 variants of the same class.
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tyr mars
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Posted - 2008.11.01 04:28:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Rel'k Bloodlor
And were are the min/cal & amr/gal ships?
Hell yeah,Min/Cal..speed demon with missiles!
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Lego Maniac
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.11.01 05:54:00 -
[59]
Originally by: tyr mars
Originally by: Rel'k Bloodlor
And were are the min/cal & amr/gal ships?
Hell yeah,Min/Cal..speed demon with missiles!
you mean like the crow? cerb? sac?
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Andracin
Free Galactic Enterprises
Violent-Tendencies
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Posted - 2008.11.01 06:42:00 -
[60]
I fly my dram on frig fun fleets and usually end up in the top three damage dealers out of all the various frigate involved. The other day I used it to take out the hyena...so yeah for its bonus it has a poor choice of weapons but if you fit it right you can still do some evil damage with it.
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