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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2004.04.18 16:09:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Jade Constantine on 19/04/2004 03:11:11
Okay, I have to say I am losing patience with abuse of the alt-system to make nonsense war-declarations to allow conflict without consequence or reprisal. These war-dec's are ridiculous, unatmospheric, irritating and childish. Now this is obviously a personal interest issue for Jericho Fraction because we pick up more than our fair share of alt-declarations.
Over the last few months we have had dozens and at at the moment we still have the following alt corporations maintaining active war decs against us:
Terra Nova Corp (FE)
Smack Talk Confederation (FE)
Inferno Corp (PA?)
Nubtastic Nubmen (CA)
Galactic Liberation Army (??)
Caldari Foreign Legion (???)
These are all alt-based outfits designed to allow people to attack in empire space without endangering the parent corporation in reprisals. It basically shows a mindset of people wanting to fight on their terms alone and not accept the consequences for violence and warfare in and of itself.
As a corporation Jericho Fraction is extremely happy to receive war-declarations form main corporations that wish to contend in battle and risk their identity in warfare and fighting. The whole mutual raiding, commerce attacks, mining distruption and military manouver is good and interesting.
But these alt-corp wars are nothing other than exploiting a weakness in the war-dec system.
It should not be possible for a people to create shell corporations and conduct warfare on their terms with no consequence or comeback or cost.
We don't do it. If we war-declare against an enemy we are there with our mains and risk our corporation economy and assets to back our words.
Alt corp warfare is appalling cheaty bad play and cowardly behaviour on the part of others.
I believe something needs to be done to resolve this issue because it is literally cheating the consequences of the war-system. I consider it is as bad as corp theft with untracable alts and is one of the reasons that alts were the single worst idea in Eve.
Obviously removing alts at this stage is not going to happen though, so here are some serious suggestions as to how to prevent alt-war-declaration exploits (comments very welcome) :
1. Introduce a charge for maintaining a war. This charge to be based on the relative size of the declaring corp and the target. IE a small charge for two equally-sized organisations ... and a much larger charge for 1-2 man outfit declaring against a much bigger corp. The idea being to make the tactical advantage of a lone 1-2 man alt corp actually cost the people that want it maintained. If the bill is not paid then the war should elapse and the corp barred from declaring more wars until the debt is paid.
2. Introduce a system for the automatic ending of wars that have no recorded incidence of hostility within a set timespan. This will clear the decks of old declarations and reduce the overhead on the system.
3. Allow tracking of alt ownership (perhaps by agents) and allow corporations war-decced against to discover eventually the identity of the sponsoring main corps too cowardly to war themselves.
Fundimentally I would like to see the end of alt-corps, alt-wars, and alt-abuse in eve. I think its sad and pathetic, and totally against the spirit of the game. This is a rich environent and serious adult simulation of prestige and reputation in commerce and conflict ... the existence of alt-corps is stupid and weak and does nothing to aid the setting in my opinion.
Love and peace
(edited to add another alt war declaration received this afternoon)
JF Public Forum |
Dartagnion
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Posted - 2004.04.18 16:17:00 -
[2]
ill get you my pretty!! and your little dog too! |
Blacklight
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Posted - 2004.04.18 16:21:00 -
[3]
I fully agree with you, not entirely sure on the solution, but the alt-wars have to go.
We recently befriended and recruited a corp of ex-E&B players into NORAD, good guys who are growing fast but are almost 100% noobs, obviously given their circumstance. What happens to them after being in the game a month or so? A large corp in a major alliance, clearly bored with their current lot, set up an alt corp, declare war and start attacking these new guys in empire.
Of course it's difficult to prove 100% who is behind the alt-corp (although we are pretty damn sure what's going on), the main characters have the security of their alliance behind them and so on... all the usual issues with this kind of crappy, cowardly behaviour. No need to comment on my opinions of a group of vets who get their kicks out of beating up on noobs. Any group of players creative enough to come up with a name like Personal Intergalactic Ganking Squad [P1GS] are clearly very high up in their local Brains Trust.
My ranting about this particular group of lamers over, this is a perfect example of the current abuse of the war-dec system it allows bored (and spineless) players to enjoy entirely risk free pvp against people they would otherwise either not have the balls to fight or whom they cannot engage for political reasons.
It is utter nonsense, sad sad sad game play and as I have said above spineless.
Eve Blacklight Style
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Stavros
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Posted - 2004.04.18 16:21:00 -
[4]
The war declaration system will prolly change at some point but I doubt abuse of alts and alt corps will ever be erradicated in eve.
Which is ghey + 10teen
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"Keep On Flaming Lamers, Like Your Ships Did When We Ended You" |
Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2004.04.18 16:25:00 -
[5]
Yeah stavros ... I suspect you are right, I just want the sad ass cowardly numpties to have to "pay" for the privilege of being sad ass cowardly numpties.
Alt war declarations should not be free.
JF Public Forum |
Smacktastic
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Posted - 2004.04.18 16:25:00 -
[6]
Now how about 'dummy corporations' that says they act alone but share the same teamspeak and only wage war on the mother corporations 'enemies'?
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Moderator @ www.killer-clowns.com
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Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2004.04.18 16:26:00 -
[7]
I completely agree.
I doubt CCP will do anything to change it though.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
DB Preacher
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Posted - 2004.04.18 16:31:00 -
[8]
Edited by: DB Preacher on 18/04/2004 16:32:56
I agree, something has to be done about this.
Reikoku have always gone head on into any corporation without the need for alts. Some we win, some we lose. Now we have an alt corporation war dec us. The alts are all members of an alliance. Yet they are allowed to utilise a seperate corp and say that it has nothing to do with that alliance.
All the war dec is for is to try to catch a lone individual RKK member moving through Empire Space and to gank them. We haven't seen hide nor hair of them in our usual haunts which anyone who knew anything about us would know where they are.
In my opinion this is nothing more than GRIEFING.
I like the idea about stopping a war if neither side destroys another's ship in a month or something. It would force these lame alts to actually go and find some of their enemies instead of sitting gate camping Yulai awaiting a lone ship.
dbp
Current RKK Ranking: (CAL4) Soldier
Drop by and say hi in Reikoku Forums.
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Lao Tzu
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Posted - 2004.04.18 16:33:00 -
[9]
I agree with some of what you say, but I think there is a place for the shadowy front company used to hinder the competion and conduct genraly act badly.
As for the three points, I think 1 is already being addressed, but not in the way you suggest I hope, however the charging is done it will hurt only new corp trying to go to war on the local thieves, not the mega corp and alliances who cause most trouble with alt-wars.
2 would certianly clear up the wars of corps that don't exist as such, or lost their bottle.
And 3. we can only hope. Although multiple accounts would make this of limited effect.
Two many things limiting the war dec. system will make things a whole lot less fun in general (IMO).
 Quote:
I think its sad and pathetic, and totally against the spirit of the game.
Here I think you are way out, shadowy opperations and dirty tricks seem to an important part of Eve.
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Viceroy
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Posted - 2004.04.18 16:35:00 -
[10]
Yup alts are lame. Make all alts show up as "Associate of [Char1] and [Char2]", that'll fix it!
But that'll also screw up a load of things like spies that enemy corps have planted into eachother and hauling alts of neg sec people and this and that... so... find a solution without my genius this time! 
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Dust Puppy
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Posted - 2004.04.18 16:36:00 -
[11]
Just make us see alts. Some corp declared war on EVE university and seem to consist mainly of alts, or people that just started and decided to declare a war on a newbie corporation. I kind of think its the alt thing. So far both sides are having fun and itŠs a good experience for the new players in our corp and I kind of like to fight in frigates so I have no problem with this.
However I can understand that it annoys a controversial corp like Jerico Fraction that lots of people hate and probably more love. Yet another group just loves to hate them 
The main problem with this alt war business is that we are forced to play the victim. You can never attack their mining ops or their agent goers because the finance their dirty deeds with their mains and they are untouchable unless ofcourse you know who they are.
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Capacitor research |
TauTut
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Posted - 2004.04.18 16:36:00 -
[12]
The thing is that no feasible financial penalty will make a blind bit of difference to alt corps funded by large main corps. Perhaps what needs to happen is for a corporation to require a period of maturity before they are allowed to declare (i.e. 3 or 4 months) which is only supported if there has been frequent and repeated corporate activity?
-TT
Background
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Sara Kerrigan
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Posted - 2004.04.18 16:38:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Sara Kerrigan on 18/04/2004 16:43:29
Agreed. At one point, we had 18 alt corps at war with us, most we've still never seen, others disappear after they lose a few ships. The most common similarity between such alt corps, is they only have kestrel pilots with cruise missiles. It's disgraceful, as much as posting smack talk on the forums with alts to avoid any attention to your main.
It will be interesting to see what happens when the new alliance system comes in, and I hope they have plans for countering what I expect several to try. That would be, making use of the "alliance shares all corps' wars" to have alt corps declare on 3 corps each, so that a genocidal faction can be at war with nearly the entire universe.
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The Kerrigan Chronicles |
Dust Puppy
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Posted - 2004.04.18 16:39:00 -
[14]
Quote:
Yup alts are lame. Make all alts show up as "Associate of [Char1] and [Char2]", that'll fix it!
But that'll also screw up a load of things like spies that enemy corps have planted into eachother and hauling alts of neg sec people and this and that... so... find a solution without my genius this time!
This would also open up a whole new market for people. There are probably lots of people that would love to be the henchman of Viceroy  . Spying wouldnŠt be so easy but you could bribe someone in the corp to give you information. Corp theft would be a lot harder and you would also have to live with your actions and reputation.
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Capacitor research |
Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2004.04.18 16:43:00 -
[15]
I fundamentally disagree and I think you are being overly dramatic about it Jade .
The use of "shadow" organisations to conduct either espionage or warfare is an integral part of the game.
They risk their ships and modules and skills and require funding and time and effort to develop to any half-decent level for "success", or even being able to fight at all.
Those that are created entirely spuriously (nothing ever happens, no fighting, nothing) are already slated for removal due to the implementation of "War charges" (its already on the list).
Tracking of alt ownership and such like is not required. Just infiltrate the corp and find out yourself. It is easy enough to do and requires only as much time and effort as those who make these corps and alts to fight with put in themselves.
If you follow the logic to its heart you would realise why people make an alt-corp to wage war instead of hiring a mercenary corp. Therein lies the real problem; the inviability of doing just that.
All this other talk about it being "cowardly" etc is, well, its just a bit narrow minded imo.
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haggis
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Posted - 2004.04.18 17:08:00 -
[16]
You know, I am sick of alts.
CCP didn't want to have them in, in the first place, they put them in because the 'fans' (pfft) whined about not being able to try out different aspects of the game. (which is missing the point, you shouldn't be able to be a pirate and also an empire-space miner, it messes everything up)
You, jade, have just highlighted yet another reason for me to hate them.
If people want to spy, they should use their main characters, yes, maybe spying 'skills' should be implemented (where you can clear your employment history and maybe even change your race). But whats going on at the moment should not be happening, it completely detracts from the experience.
I know I'm not really saying anything here.
I guess I honestly think the solution to the alt problem is to take out the alts.
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haggis
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Posted - 2004.04.18 17:08:00 -
[17]
Edited by: haggis on 18/04/2004 17:09:17
Double post  .
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Cabadrin
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Posted - 2004.04.18 17:11:00 -
[18]
I 100% agree Jade. The Merchant Marines are currently at war with Personal Intergalactic Ganking Squad (P1GS). We know that they are alts for GODS (Generals of Destruction Syndicate) but we can;t do anything about that. They sit around in Kestrels ganking our miners and haulers and use their main characters to generate money / spy.
How can a corp with over 100 players, mostly concentrated in a few systems, deal with a few alts who use war to continue personal grudges? These are just noob characters with a few hundred thousand skill points. It's something that should be looked in to.
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Coalition Kill Board |
JoCool
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Posted - 2004.04.18 17:18:00 -
[19]
Make alts visible for others. Like "Elvis is a relative of Jade Constantine".
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2004.04.18 17:19:00 -
[20]
Quote:
I These are just noob characters with a few hundred thousand skill points.
Oh nice one. 
Now a war is *wrong* because those fighting it don't have *enough* skill points.
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haggis
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Posted - 2004.04.18 17:22:00 -
[21]
Quote:
Quote:
I These are just noob characters with a few hundred thousand skill points.
Oh nice one.
Now a war is *wrong* because those fighting it don't have *enough* skill points.
a) putting words into people's mouths is super-mean
edit by Eris Discordia
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Dust Puppy
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Posted - 2004.04.18 17:31:00 -
[22]
Quote:
They risk their ships and modules and skills and require funding and time and effort to develop to any half-decent level for "success", or even being able to fight at all.
We are talking about two weeks old alts that have cheap clones. You can make a combat capable frigate pilote in something like 2 weeks and not only that but it's as good a frigate you can get but that's a whole other issue. All you really need is mwd and cruise missile and then you are on the top of your pvp career. They get to attack your mining ops and camp for agent runners. All you can do is attack their combat frigates that probably don't cost more than 500k ISK with modules.
Quote:
Tracking of alt ownership and such like is not required. Just infiltrate the corp and find out yourself. It is easy enough to do and requires only as much time and effort as those who make these corps and alts to fight with put in themselves.
There is one flaw in this arguement many of those corps are created just to fight this war and only accept those they know.
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Capacitor research |
Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2004.04.18 17:46:00 -
[23]
The point was always spurious until people sit down and considered what they are saying.
If its *wrong* that you can fight others within two weeks of training then you have to stop that globally. It matters not if its an alt, a main character, or a second account. Unfortunately most here dont seem to want to consider what they are really saying.
Creation of a class system is unfair, unrealistic and purly selfish in motivation.
Any of these people who do fight, be it an alt or a main character have the right to do so and their relative level of skills is entirely and absolutely irrelevant to the issue.
Poorly thought out arguements and alterior motives do not make a good arguement. It is up to those with working grey matter to see the relevance of the above.
Dust Puppy - you are no longer even talking about alts but moved way out into every area of the game and are fundamentally saying one thing and one thing only - same as Jade ; "This is unfair."
My counter point is simple: Show me where any of the complaint doesnt also apply to legitimate characters, mains of newbies or second accounts or where there should ever be a limit on PvP due to total skill points. I think you will find you cant make any good arguements for that case.
And until that time I suggest people differentiate clearly between a selfish complaint over a legitimate gameplay issue.
Lower clones cost less - so what? It, once again, is not an alt-specific issue, much like most of the posts here.
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Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2004.04.18 17:53:00 -
[24]
Morkt,
Putting aside your natural tendency to say "white" when Jade says "black", this alt-war declaration crap is annoying, isn't it?
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Dust Puppy
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Posted - 2004.04.18 17:57:00 -
[25]
The point is Morkt that to make live in EVE you have to have income, well you donŠt have to but it would be a dull game otherwise  . So while this newly created alt can attack me while IŠm ready for combat and when IŠm calmly doing agent mission to safe up some money for my next toy. I however can only attack his alt as he does all the money making with his main.
I have never understood why people in war always gather up their fleet and attack the fleet of the other corp. To win a war you have to hit them where it hurts and that is in the wallet. Ideally I would deal with alts declaring war on me by declaring war on their main corp but if I donŠt know who they are then I canŠt do that can I. If they are all alts that come from they same corp/alliance/group of friends then I have not means of infiltrating that group and hence canŠt find what corp IŠm really at war with. Note I do kind of like having a war with an alt corp but I do understand why people get ****ed of about alt wars.
The issue with the low skill points then I want people to be able to fight from day one and I want them to do it  itŠs just that I donŠt like the fact that it doesnŠt really matter how high my frigate skill points are I will never be better off then any frigate pilot with cruise missiles and mwd but that certainly hasnŠt got anything to do with this thread.
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Capacitor research |
Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2004.04.18 17:58:00 -
[26]
Forgot to add:
I will happily sign up to complain at legitimate alt-specific issues. I've no wish to sign up to a general rant on alts that hasn't taken the time to consider the underlying issues or the global impact of some of the called for changes and so-called problems.
Just remove "alt" and replace it with either "newb" or "2nd account" and the glaring irrelevance of many of the points should be obvious.
You want to talk about "alt problems" fine - do so.
This thread didn't start off doing that though nor has it headed in that direction.
Consider the implications before hopping onto the alt bandwagon willy-nilly. You can bet the devs will, so trying to make a case without applying relevant thought on the global implications isn't going to go anywhere.
/me shrugs
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2004.04.18 18:05:00 -
[27]
Quote:
Morkt,
Putting aside your natural tendency to say "white" when Jade says "black", this alt-war declaration crap is annoying, isn't it?
(Generally i tend to agree with Jade actually)
Yes - but that's not what is going on this thread. Jade ran out the full drama act and nobody stopped to consider the global implications of much of her rant.
Ill say it again - make it specific to unskilled alts and i'll sign up to it. Problem is that nobody has done that and instead we're suddenly seeingpeople who want "can fight/cant fight" distinctions by the age or skill of a pilot. Saying so isn't required, the implication is obvious.
Im going to go buy a second account and start a war on somebody - and who is going ot tell me i cant do that (or that its "Unfair") and bypass every damn thing here said about "alts" and still generate the exact same issue?
Thats the real point.
Its a global rant and isnt alt specific. I dont know how much clearer I can say that. Address the problem, not the symptoms.
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Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2004.04.18 18:10:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Joshua Calvert on 18/04/2004 18:11:56
Some of the problems with Eve can be laid at the feet of alts.
- Indy-ganking kestrel pilots in Yulai.
The above two examples are the worst of the worst - there is no retaliation available for these characters because they generally get recycled when they've served their purpose. You can't go to war with the indy-gankers because they are NPC characters and inevitable get deleted when their sec status reaches a critical point.
Corp. thieves are an obvious piss-take because they do the deed, transfer goods to the main, and then meet the recycler.
Alts make life too easy for those too scared to get their precious mains hands dirty.
I don't have any alts - anything I want to do in Eve can be done with Joshua Calvert. I've pirated, scammed, formed shadow corps. to hit enemies of EV, I've talked crap on the forums, I've targetted n00bs in Yulai and got them ganked by CONCORD, and I do all this with one character because I enjoy the liability of acting with a single character. Everything I do in Eve has a long-term impression with this persona.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Ulendar
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Posted - 2004.04.18 18:14:00 -
[29]
I agree something should be done about senceless declerations of wars but i do not agree with your 'solutions'...
Putting an upkeep on war that is steep for small outfits declaring war on larger corps does not make much sence. Why should small corps who want to go to war with larger corps be punished for doing so? I dont see the logic here. Sure it 'might' put discourage shell operation by larger corps but it would also give everyone who actualyl has a legit reason for making war on a larger corp, a hard tiem doing so...ontop of the already hard time they obviously have.
Your suggestion to have a timespan on wars seem better although i do not see how it will cure this desease directly. People will still be able to gank small starting corps on a frequent basis. Also, not every corporation who is making active war on another is in battle constantly. There has to be room for a 'breather'.
The suggestion to expose alts has been DONE ok and it was found to be not such a good solution. As many argued before...what happens to people who have alts in respectable corps while they themselves are slimeballs?? This is still an RPG in which each char should be considered of having an independant life and playstyle. Its unfair to say that the lawbiding upstanding alt should have to suffer because of the action your other char envolves himself in. I know this is not your reason for suggesting this but we both know this is what it would lead to.
To be honest i personally dont see any solutions to this atm. None tha would seem viable with the current system in any case...
I suppose the devs could provide a petition service to wars. In which case a GM would have to be confronted with the fact and determine wether the war is being conducted in a spirit of good sportsmenship or if it isnt but i feel this would become highly biased and possible put a large strain on the gm team...something they dont need right now.
Originally by: cashman
It's time for Eris to get a clue. CCP should make a statement about this.
It's the exact same things as what Zombie did, you may not attack in "safe-areas" (empire/within sentry range) without loosing your ship.
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2004.04.18 18:17:00 -
[30]
Wont disagree Joshua - I wish CCP had made it only 1 character per account from the start.
Unfortunately even if they had done that then people could still go out buy a second account and do the same thing.
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