| Pages: 1 2 3 4 [5] 6 7 :: one page |
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Andarvi
   |
Posted - 2004.04.20 11:41:00 -
[121]
Wouldn't an in-game system that gives a list of 'affiliated' corporations suffice (maybe a new type of agent). Something along the line of:
Investigation of 'Alt-corp' completed. The corporation had recent dealings with: Corp A, Corp B... (a list of corporations every char of every alt in Alt-corp belongs to).
This would partially solve the problem without completely ruining the anonimousity needed to have spies. The attacked corporation would know (with a good degree of probability) who to extract revenge from, yet no specifics would be revealed for every char in the alt corporation.
|
Ninja Panda
|
Posted - 2004.04.20 12:48:00 -
[122]
Jade you have been seen ferrying Turtles around in Empire space and such we will deal with you.
Please dont put us in the catergory of greifers, we are Zoo keepers who have been scorned and have fun and bring joy to others who we liberate from their evil turtle abusing ways.
Creating alts simply to gank noob indies is lame, creating a fun alt corp to fight against higher skilled (points I mean) enemies is perfectly valid when your main lives up in Venal.
Send my love to Shintoko, she is a babe and was indeed running rings round my Caracal last night. I like to think I brought a little joy to her life, the evil turtle abuser she is.
Nubtastic Nubmen, to the Nubmobile
|
Jade Constantine
|
Posted - 2004.04.20 12:59:00 -
[123]
"Ninja Panda"
 Quote:
Please dont put us in the catergory of greifers, we are Zoo keepers who have been scorned and have fun and bring joy to others who we liberate from their evil turtle abusing ways.
I didn't categorise you as "griefers" I categorised you as "cowards" who are who too "cowardly" to deal the consequence of going to war with your mains.
Quote:
Creating alts simply to gank noob indies is lame, creating a fun alt corp to fight against higher skilled (points I mean) enemies is perfectly valid when your main lives up in Venal.
"fun alt corp" is in the eye of the beholder I'm afraid. From my perspective the Nubmen just suck. And nice try on Venal by the way, we know who you are the alts of.
Quote:
Send my love to Shintoko, she is a babe and was indeed running rings round my Caracal last night. I like to think I brought a little joy to her life, the evil turtle abuser she is
You see this is the thing I don't understand. You make up a ridiculous alt to fly with your ridiculous alt corp. You come and get involved in a consequence-less (for your main) war where the insurance of your ships will more than cover the cost of your clones and equipment. And when you get here you still fly like the cowardly numpties that your mains are. Why build alts for an alt war corp and spend your time flying to safe spots and logging in stations?
You have to admit its kinda pathetic and a total waste of time.
JF Public Forum |
Bad Harlequin
|
Posted - 2004.04.20 13:10:00 -
[124]
Originally by: Morkt Drak
Ok - back to any issues with Lorna's idea:
Is there anything wrong with defaulting "main" to being the character with the most skill points? (its the simplest way to do it afterall?)
And : any other issues? (If not its pretty much a wrap isnt it?)
only one i can think of - corp breaks up, falls apart, you get sick of it and quit, you stop using mr. 10m skillpoints and start using 2m as your primary character.
do you then have to wait for 8m skillpoints before he becomes a valid character  ?
I still think the problem - and solution - lies more in the systems of aggression themselves, rather than what's *currently* being used to dance around them. Fix alts but leave the flawed aggression systems, and new stupid ways to evade their intent will be found.
Altcorps are harmful to the economy, btw. I agree that some method of curbing them would be enormously helpful as people looking for blackops teams would actually have to HIRE some who AREN'T themselves...
You are in a maze of twisty little asteroids, all alike. |
Bad Harlequin
|
Posted - 2004.04.20 13:14:00 -
[125]
Edited by: Bad Harlequin on 20/04/2004 13:24:05
Originally by: Ishkur
CONCORD exists to protect people from being attacked unprovoked.
sorry to chainpsawn posts again but this is the key problem. They DON'T protect people from being attacked unprovoked. NOT AT ALL. However, the DO prevent you from defending some n00b who has been attacked unprovoked.
If CONCORD was a machine it would be replaced. If it was software - which it is... - it would be re-written. CONCORD
1) Does not fulfill its intended purpose.
2) Helps gurantee the situation it is purported to prevent.
From this we can assume 1 of 2 things:
1) It's being worked on silently and upcoming changes to security and contraband are going to be allowed time to work to gauge their effects before taking more drastic action.
or
2) CONCORD's actual purpose is not, in fact, to protect anyone, but actually to guarantee that such ganking can occur.
From a Dev point of view i'd buy either one. However, if it's neither of these, we got problems...
edit: clarifying that the latter 2 points were opposing possibilities... 
You are in a maze of twisty little asteroids, all alike. |
Bad Harlequin
|
Posted - 2004.04.20 13:19:00 -
[126]
Originally by: Eris Discordia
if you want to contact someone about their signature you can eve-mail them.
i just noticed this...
You are in a maze of twisty little asteroids, all alike. |
Ninja Panda
|
Posted - 2004.04.20 13:47:00 -
[127]
lol, Ive now read through the entire thing and obviously I agree with Morkt here, and Josh to some degree.
I have never participated in corp theft, unless they had a turtle hangar. And I have never scanned a noob indy and blown it up to greif, again if turtles were found it may be different. I fly a cruiser and I fight Battleships when possible. Yes I agree there are issues with how easy it is to get a suicide cruise missle firing kestrel and greif but this is a gameplay issue and not limited to alts. When you think before you post it really helps.
No quite the opposite Jade, we have touched your nerve by blowing up a couple of cruisers and then you cry to the community with a poorly thought out argument. Its chuckle time for us at the zoo.
You say we are cowards because we are alts yet you claim to know our mains, so do something about it ?
and LMAO , you beat you chest about blowing up a couple of 'my allies' ships. I should care about this why ?
Ive never been to Fade or pure blind in my life and have probably never even spoken to the residents there. Good one, keep thinking your infrequent trips outside of empire space effect us somehow.
I guess actually you have touched a nerve because Im usually such a friendly nice Panda. I look forward to more friendly encounters with your corpmate such as Ridarri and Shin and the handsome warriors of Xanadu, who I have MASSIVE respect for by the way, but you Jade should probably stick to eloquent summaries of actual powerful corps and drop the name calling and whining.
Nubtastic Nubmen, to the Nubmobile
|
Denyerec
|
Posted - 2004.04.20 13:49:00 -
[128]
Sentry guns to fire working defenders at criminal missiles?
Oh I don't know. Just a thought.
|
Jade Constantine
|
Posted - 2004.04.20 13:49:00 -
[129]
Harlequin,
Quote:
Originally by: Morkt Drak
Ok - back to any issues with Lorna's idea:
Is there anything wrong with defaulting "main" to being the character with the most skill points? (its the simplest way to do it afterall?)
And : any other issues? (If not its pretty much a wrap isnt it?)
only one i can think of - corp breaks up, falls apart, you get sick of it and quit, you stop using mr. 10m skillpoints and start using 2m as your primary character.
With Lorna Doon's suggestion this would not be a problem for you unless you wanted to use your 2m point alt (proto main) in a primarily alt based corporation. The rules she proposed would mean your new character would count -1 to the war dec calc, but if you joined a corp with at least 2 mains more than alts you would not cause any problem at all. That suggestion was designed to stop "alt war corps" from being able to declare war while allowing people to use roleplaying alts or whatever for whatever reason they wanted to.
The "ninja panda" style total alt "nubmen" thing would be rendered void (as it should be) and more of a premium would be placed on main player dominated corporations.
Quote:
do you then have to wait for 8m skillpoints before he becomes a valid character ?
"Valid" Is a loaded term. It just means that the smaller skill point character counts as a -1 to war dec allowance. So you wouldn't be able to make a corp with the "alt" and war dec with it. But you would be totally free to join a main-run corp and play in their war.
Of course, I reckon that being able to petition and have your status changed would be sensible (ie make your 2m officially "main" if you had got bored with the older character, but obviously there would need to be some controls in place to stop people flip-flopping back and forth)
Quote:
I still think the problem - and solution - lies more in the systems of aggression themselves, rather than what's *currently* being used to dance around them. Fix alts but leave the flawed aggression systems, and new stupid ways to evade their intent will be found.
That's true. Personally I think out of war-dec aggression in empire space should lead to the aggressor getting a "free target" tag that lasts a variable amount of time based on the sec level of the system. For example. Kestrel alt targets and shoots someone in yulai. That alt (regardless of whether he gets insta ganked by concord) becomes a "criminal" for the next 6 hours and is freely targetable without concord intervention by anyone anywhere. (If you flaunt the laws of concord then you step outside of their protection). This would obviously let friends of a victim shoot the agressor in instant vengeance too. If this system came into place I would actually argue for a weakening of gate guns and concord and let players do a bit more policing.
Quote:
Altcorps are harmful to the economy, btw. I agree that some method of curbing them would be enormously helpful as people looking for blackops teams would actually have to HIRE some who AREN'T themselves...
Yes thats one of the things that offends me most about the alt-corps. They are people playing with themselves, who don't dare interact with other people in this rich and interesting MMORG environment.
I love negotiating with mercs and assassins and people that do shady things with their mains. Its interesting roleplay, it gets you talking to a variety of people, it increases your streetwise knowledge of the game, and yes, its FUN.
(An aspect of the game that the player of "ninja panda" has apparently overlooked because he prefers to deal with his make believe friends and simulated conversations between his alt and his main ... good lord, and people say I am in too deep ... at least I like to talk to real pretend people)
JF Public Forum |
Naos Zapatero
|
Posted - 2004.04.20 13:57:00 -
[130]
CCP alts are killing EVE-Online.
|
Qinoly
|
Posted - 2004.04.20 14:15:00 -
[131]
Whether alts should have been in or not.. they can't change it anymore, as ppl putted time into several characters; Time they payed for.
So what is the discussion about ?
|
Maud Dib
|
Posted - 2004.04.20 14:24:00 -
[132]
Can we please keep this post on topic and not get it locked? If you two want to smack do it somewhere else.
|
Jade Constantine
|
Posted - 2004.04.20 14:27:00 -
[133]
Originally by: Qinoly
Whether alts should have been in or not.. they can't change it anymore, as ppl putted time into several characters; Time they payed for.
So what is the discussion about ?
Preventing "alt corps" (corps made entirely of alts) from declaring formal war. And forcing people that want to take indirect revenge on corporations that they fear to fight themselves, to take the risk of hiring real players to do it.
The best suggestion so far comes from Lorna Doon, who says that before allowing a corporation to war dec the current numbers of alts (whose main is not also in the corp) and mains should be compared. -1 for ever lone alt +1 for every main. If the total is not positive the corp cannot make wardecs.
Alt = character on account that does not have the most skill points.
Thats pretty much it Quinoly, but there is a lot of ancillary discussion. (and some silliness)
JF Public Forum |
Mon Palae
|
Posted - 2004.04.20 14:31:00 -
[134]
Why not just disable the recycling of ALTs altogether? Seems a relatively simple solution that might work something like this:
- The fist (main) character may be recycled at any time till an ALT is created.
- ALTs have 72 hours (3 days) before they become "locked in" (in case you pooch the creation somehow and want to start over).
- Once characters are "locked in" they may only be recycled in descending order of their skillpoints. Recycle the highest first, then the second highest and then the last one.
- Second Accounts (or third or seventh) would have all their characters tied together in this fasion. If you have seven accounts then you can only recycle the characters from highest to lowest through all 21 characters (so creating an account, deleting it and recreating it would not help...your highest skillpoint character will always nail the rest down).
It seems to me that this shouldn't unduly impact all the pious ALT users who merely want to "explore other aspects of the game". It would however limit griefing tactics as you would only get two shots at it and once your Kestrel Rapist or corp thief had a miserable sec status/reputtation they would no longer be able to use it (or use it effectively).
To those who would complain I'd say consider yourself lucky you get three characters to play at all. ALTs are arguably the single worst decision CCP ever made regarding EVE. Even with this restriction players can still have their pirate character and use an ALT to avoid all sec status issues and drive into the Empire to do whatever needs doing. Traders need not be held to making a choice of chaining rats 40j into 0.0 or sticking on the traderoutes.
Such a restriction would however make you value those extra two slots much more. Over time they would acquire a reputation same as yoru main character does so how you choose to play those extra characters begins to be meaningful again rather than have them as throwaway items.
I would still love to see skills or agents and such introduced that allowed people sniff out who a person's ALTs were (and they would have a counter-ability to hide as well) but not sure if my above proposal would make that too strong a thing as once one person found out they could advertise it to everyone and the ALT is stuck.
Something to think about.
|
Bad Harlequin
|
Posted - 2004.04.20 15:04:00 -
[135]
Originally by: Denyerec
Sentry guns to fire working defenders at criminal missiles?
Oh I don't know. Just a thought.
that could work, if defenders did. right now i wouldn't be surprised if they whacked their intended protectee. then the sentries would start shooting each other... 
You are in a maze of twisty little asteroids, all alike. |
Macumba
|
Posted - 2004.04.20 15:09:00 -
[136]
Both myself and my other accounts think alts suck.
Theres a point in there somewhere.
"PVP = griefing" Papa Smurf |
Athule Snanm
|
Posted - 2004.04.20 15:14:00 -
[137]
Originally by: Morkt Drak
Athule - go back a bit and read Lornas idea - its far simpler tbh and, so far, without major flaw.
The only addition noted too date is the ability to allow consensual RP wars which bypasses any restrictions.
Bah, reading before posting indeed! What sort of half-arsed forum ***** do you think I am!
The major flaw I see in Lorna's idea is that it only addresses the corp-war thing. There are plenty of other things going on that people could happily petition if they knew they were being done by alts as a way to avoid consequences. It's only possible to do this if alts are 'outed' in some way. The easiest way of doing this would be to display a % of skill points, updated during DT only to save strain on the DB.
_______________________________
Doomheim - EVE's only hygiene! |
Ishkur
|
Posted - 2004.04.20 15:37:00 -
[138]
Again, I don't think wars in Empire space should be non-consentual. That's what 0.4-0.0 space is for, IMHO. Consentual is fine with me (and might be advantageous to both parties). Even allowing war without security status hits in 0.4- is acceptable to me, because then you're making a conscious choice to engage in war.
But imagine if such a thing (corp wars) existed in real life. Imagine GM declaring war on Ford. Now, Ford wants no part of this, but the cops just turn their heads while GM ritually massacres Ford employees and camps outside of the Ford headquarters shooting people as they leave the building? What idiocy is this!
While I understand the general idea of Corp wars, I think the current system wherein someone can easily be victimized by someone who seeks only to cause grief (and that's really what it is if the aggression is unwanted and not sought after).
I'm all for having some ability to remedy problems, but the current situation ends up causing more trouble than its worth. Besides alt wars (which I realize are the topic of this thread; and Celestial Horizon has a one-man alt-corp with a war declaration on us too), the current war situation also leads to:
- Noob corp pirates (who I would argue are 100x more cowardly than alt corps)
- Indiscriminate and short-term war decs on corps for no reason other than because you like to blow people up.
- Making EVE a very dangerous and frankly annoying game for very new people, who besides having to navigate the 8 billion complexities in EVE are also forced to dodge bullets from god-only-knows-who just because their corp is in a war that they don't want to fight.
I'd rather see non-consentual corp wars be removed (which would solve Jade's problem immediately, as JF could flick their wrists and brush off these ankle-biters), and some new systems put in place:
A. Some sort of CONCORD bribe, either for a corp (or even better) on a person. I would *LOVE* the ability to bribe concord into letting my corporation hunt even 2-3 people at a time. This quickly makes noob-corp-pirates an endangered species, while protecting true noobs.
B. The temporary KOS flag that Jade mentions, and others have also mentioned (including yours truly) to allow citizens to help other citizens in distress. This would most likely deter the use of noob/alt gankers in busy systems and the associated problems. I actually think a rapid falling security status could work (coupled with a removal of the insta-gank on -2.0+ players, which I think is silly). So if you attack someone in 1.0 space, your security status immediately falls to -8.0 or something, making you KOS to all, and then quickly goes up to the final point again when your time is up.
C. Some changes to CONCORD to allow you to "call off the dogs" if a shot gets fired incorrectly and ends up hitting an innocent bystander, or your alt-spies in noob corps. Kinda sucks to have CONCORD come and gank your buddy because his missle didn't hit its intended target and hit you instead. Imagine a guy gets nicked by a bullet at a skeet shooting contest, and the police rush in. The guy says, "wait! wait! he's a friend of mine!" and the police then turn to the shooter, and unload their guns into him. I realize CONCORD is computer-controlled here, but come on!
Anyway...
There are clearly issues, but I think solving the problems of non-consentual PvP without consequences needs to be #1. That would solve these problems, IMHO, once and for all, while other solutions seem ripe to be exploited here and there.
|
Eris Discordia
|
Posted - 2004.04.20 15:41:00 -
[139]
Last time I ask, keep it respectful ; no trolling and no flaming.
If you want this topic to serve any more purpose then banter I suggest you talk about alts in general and not refer to eachother.
If there are in-game issues about wars and alts, try to solve it in-game or petition about it.
I will not let a good discussion end in a flamewar about corp A versus corp B. If you want to discuss Corporations in particulair there is another forum for it.
I ♥ my pink dreadnought of pwnage
Mail [email protected] if you have any questions. |
Ishkur
|
Posted - 2004.04.20 15:45:00 -
[140]
Quote:
If we were going to descend to your level we would roll up an alt corp of our own ... train some crappy little combat alts and war declare vs Arcane Technologies UK. We would do exactly what you are doing in reverse and take absolutely no risk doing it.
My only other thought here is that what is good for the goose might not be great for the gander. Newer players to EVE (which based on server numbers is probably 45-55% of the EVE population) probably would be better served by noob gankers attacking them. If you have 400k skill points, you can probably hold your own in a frigate war, but if the opposition brings battleships and cruisers, you're dead meat.
|
Jade Constantine
|
Posted - 2004.04.20 15:45:00 -
[141]
I apologise for getting drawn in Eris, and will keep my points neutral from here on. It is quite an important subject I think, and I would appreciate everyone keeping their comments on topic.
(I am a sucker for getting trolled ... bad jade!)
JF Public Forum |
Bad Harlequin
|
Posted - 2004.04.20 15:47:00 -
[142]
eris, on that note, i'd like to respectfully request that you annihilate offtopic or flaming posts instead of teh clicky? including mine if need be
it's all too easy for someone to nuke a good thread by firebombing the end of it, causing a lock and killing the convo. thread exploiters!
You are in a maze of twisty little asteroids, all alike. |
Joshua Calvert
|
Posted - 2004.04.20 15:48:00 -
[143]
Originally by: Bad Harlequin
eris, on that note, i'd like to respectfully request that you annihilate offtopic or flaming posts instead of teh clicky? including mine if need be
it's all too easy for someone to nuke a good thread by firebombing the end of it, causing a lock and killing the convo. thread exploiters!
another downside of alts 
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Joshua Calvert
|
Posted - 2004.04.20 15:51:00 -
[144]
Something to think about:
Idle hands are the devils playthings.
Other than mining/agent missions/pvp, what else is left for people to do?
Maybe griefing is the new "trade run".
Perhaps the griefers are technological rights terrorists who exploit flaws in the game to bring the devs attention to them via the loud shouting of the ganked?
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Joshua Calvert
|
Posted - 2004.04.20 15:52:00 -
[145]
Shintoko is Jade?
I guess this means I take a notch off the bedpost? Hmmmmmmmm.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
voogru
|
Posted - 2004.04.20 15:56:00 -
[146]
Quote:
2. Introduce a system for the automatic ending of wars that have no recorded incidence of hostility within a set timespan. This will clear the decks of old declarations and reduce the overhead on the system.
This is a great idea, the area that lists all the wars between who and what is quite cluttered with old wars of corps that have since disappeared.
I also think it should cost to "start" a war, depending on the size both corps. A small corp going after a large corp should expect to pay out thru thier nose to maintain the war.
-------
Your 425mm Prototype I Gauss Gun perfectly strikes Guardian Enforcer, wrecking for 827.3 damage. |
Peepshow
|
Posted - 2004.04.20 15:59:00 -
[147]
Edited by: Peepshow on 20/04/2004 16:03:05
Edited by: Peepshow on 20/04/2004 16:00:47
Quote:
I am a sucker
That's what happens when you get corpthieved for 300mill, gg
|
Jade Constantine
|
Posted - 2004.04.20 16:15:00 -
[148]
Edited by: Jade Constantine on 20/04/2004 16:24:21
Yeah I am pretty bad for getting drawn into these flame defence actions and being manipulated by alt trollers as well. For the record I much prefer to have posts deleted to protect the thread too. The lock thing is victory for the people who want to end the discussion.
I do feel I need to make a clarifying point here though:
Basically my reason for posting this thread was not to demand the removal of all alts or to whine and gnash my teeth at the effectiveness of alt-war-corps (because in all honesty they are totally useless).
My issue here is that I feel alt war corp declarations are a form of exploit, and they cheat the purpose of the war system.
I believe that the concord sanctioned war system is there to allow main corporations to declare war on main corporations and risk their ships and assets in the uncertain environment of conflict and violent means.
For an alt-war corporation to use this system is an unbalanced interaction because the alt users are not at risk. They chose when to ignore concord. They can attack whenever they want and they can retreat past the anonimity of the alt system wherever things can go against them. There is literally no way they can ever "lose" a war because their resource base cannot be attacked, and their main's cannot be interdicted and damaged in reciprical aggression.
At the moment the only way to reply in kind to this is to roll up one's own "alt war corp" and counterattack the sponsers with alts of your own.
But this is crap.
It represents a downward spiral into meaningless conflict and unatmospheric corporations with ridiculous names filled with pointless alts.
I cannot believe this is what the game designers intended for the war system in Eve.
Wars should have consequences. Wars should be winnable and losable. Main corporations should be more significant and important to the game environment than alt corporations.
All this talk of "fun" by the users of alt corps is one-sided and narrow-minded. It might have a certainly kind of childish "hey hey i cheated the system and nicked something while the GM's weren't looking" kinda fun about it. But it damages Eve. I am certain of it.
Every time an alt-war dec comes into Jericho Fraction our corp channel does not ring with jolly laughter and excitement for the thrilling battles to come.
No,
Instead we just sigh and feel sorry for the pitiful people that are cheating Eve (and themselves) to avoid fighting a valid war (in which they risk something) with their mains. We know that the alt-war represents unskilled people logging on and off and trying for a couple of gate-ganks who will run and hide immediately anyone turns up.
As for the solutions:
I am against consensual wars. I think that corps must always have the option to declare war on an unwilling target. Eve is a pvp game in many aspects and I believe every main corporation must have the right to punish rivals and enemies with warfare if policy dictates that step.
But I absolutely believe that alt corps must *not* have this privilege.
Alt war corps are entirely created to cheat the war system.
They either cheat the limitations (3 active wars)
Or they cheat the reputation consequences (no public disparagement for losing)
Or they cheat the vulnerability of non combat assests in war (mains are safe)
Or they cheat the politics (allowing corps to avoid the consequences of honest hostility)
Or they cheat the economy (allowing corps to avoid using mercs and assassins to do their dirty work)
I cannot think of a single reason why an alt corp war would be valid. And I honestly believe that if you cannot go to war with your main corp (for whatever reason) that means you shouldn't be going to war, and alt-war corp alternatives are exploiting the system pure and simple.
Alts are likely with us to stay. But please please CCP, limit the things you can do with them to allow our main characters to occupy the significance they deserve in the game universe.
Alt characters should not be starting wars.
JF Public Forum |
Jade Constantine
|
Posted - 2004.04.20 16:18:00 -
[149]
Originally by: Joshua Calvert
Shintoko is Jade?
I guess this means I take a notch off the bedpost? Hmmmmmmmm.
Don't worry Josh ... Shintoko is a character in her own right. I don't use alts or secondary accounts. I believe that someone has once again failed to read.
JF Public Forum |
Maud Dib
|
Posted - 2004.04.20 16:19:00 -
[150]
Originally by: Ninja Panda
Edited by: Ninja Panda on 20/04/2004 15:53:34
LMAO , so you Jade are infact Shintoko and yet you complain about Alts , absolutely priceless. OMG that is fantastic.
So you fight with you alt Shintoko because you are too cowardly to fight with Jade Constantine in case someone gets her corpse......OMG can you say hypocrite ??
Pure class, thanks.
Please do declare war on this Arcane Technologies, it honestly would not bother me one iota.
My apologies Eris, last I mention on this topic. Some of the folks here have some good ideas such as Lorna.
Why do you think Jade is Shin? To the best of my knowledge they are different people. If not it begs another serious question. Why is Shin a much better pilot than Jade?
|
| |
|
| Pages: 1 2 3 4 [5] 6 7 :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |