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Final word: PvP is not griefing

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Barbelo Valentinian Liberty Corporation	Posted - 2008.04.06 20:23:00 - [1] There have been some fascinating discussions on the topic of griefing recently. I would like to just wrap up one thing that's become obvious to me in the course of these discussions. There are two general classes of arguments flying across the battlements here both of which I think miss the point. On the one hand you have people who do think PvP per se is griefing. They're wrong. But on the other hand, you have people who accept that definition, but argue, "PvP is part of EVE, therefore griefing is part of EVE". They're wrong too. PvP is part of EVE, but PvP is not in and of itself griefing, no matter how "brutal" that PvP may be, how hard the loss is to bear; but at the same time, griefing is not, and should not, be part of EVE. Or, if it is now, that's probably an unintended consequence of the game mechanic (or, maybe, it was slyly intended at one point by the devs, perhaps in an effort to look cool, perhaps in an effort to be clever and corner a neglected market niche of griefer subscribers). Griefing is a different thing from PvP per se - it's defined by it's aim and intent, not the mechanism by which it's delivered (in the case of EVE, "harsh" game mechanics); the aim and intent being simply to entertain oneself at someone else's expense, and for no in-game purpose. Griefing being so defined, it's important not to exaggerate the problem, and to bear in mind that it's not necesarily a real-world morally wrong action (it is after all usually just a bit of fun - although it can shade into a morally wrong real-world action, in which case it becomes petitionable harrassment). The only actual problem with common or garden griefing, and the reason why most developers try to minimise it, is because it tends to kill newbies' immersion - i.e. because it's directed at them personally (or perhaps generically as a newbie) it pulls them out of the game a bit, so to speak, makes them self conscious rather than immersed in the game, and therefore makes them less likely to keep subscribing; also it's annoying for devs because it nullifies and (metaphorically speaking) spits on all the work they put in to making the game world immersive. This means it's a problem for the game - but only IF the game is a roleplaying game in which immersion plays an important part, IF the intention of the developers is to gradually increase subscriber figures, and IF they're proud of the immmersiveness of the game world they created. ***** "To wake up is to wake the world up" - D.E. Harding
Marcus TheMartin Tuxedo.	Posted - 2008.04.06 20:24:00 - [2] In before the ****storm
Sakura Nihil Stimulus	Posted - 2008.04.06 20:28:00 - [3] Edited by: Sakura Nihil on 06/04/2008 20:30:59 Dibs on the first flame... er, response. This game is a sandbox - what may be griefing to you is not to me. When we're not doing an op, sometimes we have members that go out and suicide gank people. Why do we do it? To grief people? Not quite - they're -10 to us, when their organization attacks us, or shows hostile intent, they're fair game. Suiciding, espionage, corp theft from them, its all allowable as long as its within our corp's guidelines and the EULA. Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk i'm not a very good gambler
IceBergSlim Royal Amarr Institute	Posted - 2008.04.06 20:35:00 - [4] Nope op i think your wrong, there is no such thing as griefing in the gameplay of eve, people seemed to have transported this word from the chat channels, were you can grief someone, colour of the skin, there mother, there sexual orientation thats griefing, what you do with your ship IS NOT GRIEFING. period
Barbelo Valentinian	Posted - 2008.04.06 20:36:00 - [5] Originally by: Sakura Nihil Why do we do it? To grief people? Not quite Well in that case it's not griefing then is it? It's just harsh PvP. Suicide ganking is not necessarily griefing. Conning and scamming people is not necessarily griefing. PvP is not necessarily griefing. It depends on whether the "harsh" action is done with a kind of in-game intent, or just amusing oneself at others' expense with no real in-game intent. ***** "To wake up is to wake the world up" - D.E. Harding
northwesten	Posted - 2008.04.06 20:44:00 - [6] only thing i see is greifing is when someone hangs around a system with miners in high sec to keep ganking barges! for no reason as they don't get the benefit / reward from it other having a sad kill. Just happily entertaining him self for silly kills and just stoping people doing what there doing. Stealing ore well that's fine lol but just gank for hell of it and with out war just silly! Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. Trinity Corporate Services
An Anarchyyt Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.06 20:46:00 - [7] Edited by: An Anarchyyt on 06/04/2008 20:46:53 To sum up the argument: People do not understand that the phrase "to grief" is not the same as griefing. So causing grief, is not griefing. Etc etc Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
Havohej The Defias Brotherhood ANTHRAX DEATH	Posted - 2008.04.06 20:47:00 - [8] While there ARE certainly a lot of immersioners and roleplayers and whatever else ya wanna call 'em (myself being one of 'em tbqfh), I learned a long time ago when I used to play that 'other' mmo that about 95% of your PvP-minded players could care less about roleplay or immersion and if they did enjoy it at all, then it was likely just as a passing fancy for a half-hour or so every week. In EVE, everything is PvP just about, from the market to the autocannon. Even that L4 mission you're farming to get all those phat lewts to sell puts you in the mix - there's no fully escaping it. So, given my previous observations and my current observations regarding EvE-Online, I think it's to be expected that you're going to have a lot of people whining that pvpers are griefing them and a lot of pvpers laughing at the whiners. I believe, from all I've read since leaving that 'other' mmo and coming here that at one time CCP hf was VERY interested in creating an immersive environment, and seeing the new Factional Warfare which they say will have quite a bit of storyline involved in it, I think that this is still the case. I also think that the primary reason why this hasn't been a priority for their devs in the recent past is that most of the subscriber base just wasn't clamoring for it; most of the subscriber base was clamoring for ways to avoid getting killed and the rest were clamoring for ways to balance the existing ways of killing each other... rare was the "I want my RP fodder" thread. I also believe that CCP hf IS proud of the game world they've created and its immersiveness - how could you not be? Even with everything else, there are entire alliances (Electus Matari, Namtzar'kin, CVA I think as well?, to name just three that come to mind) that encourage In-Character interaction regardless of whether those around them are also RPing. And one last thing before I finish here, a word on griefing: When I was a noob, I flew through Rancer something like a dozen times... three of those times, Katie Door and the united. were waiting for me. Once, they were in Criellere. Likewise, I flew through Kourmonen something like a dozen times... three of four times muffin factory was waiting. Once, while flying around in a Rifter, ratting in highsec, I happened to warp to a belt where some 'geddon suicided me with smartbombs for no apparent reason (I later found out his platinum insurance was expiring the next day and he wanted his isk at the expense of some noob - he gave me 2M to replace my ship and fittings which I thought was quite sporting of him). A lot of that would be called griefing by any one of the whiners I've seen on this forum. THIS is griefing: First corp I join, everything's going well, I even recruit some other new players I'd interacted with for him, doing everything I can to help him grow his corporation, this goes for 2 months - suddenly, he comes on one night, typing all screwy like he's drunk, and he starts completely overstepping the bounds of a friendship born through a video game - I tell him to shove it, remove roles and intend to quit the corp, as I'm just not going to deal with it. 24 hours later, I go to quit corp... "There are roles in your log less than 1 hour old. Please try again in 23 hours." He's edited my roles to 'trap' me in his corp. Come to find out, he's done the same to my three friends who intended to leave with me. This goes on for three days until finally we're forced to petition for harassment to get out of the corporation... THAT was griefing. Blowing up a ship by any means (suicide gank or otherwise) does not constitute griefing.
Markit Broker Hedion University	Posted - 2008.04.06 21:01:00 - [9] Edited by: Markit Broker on 06/04/2008 21:02:45 if both party(s) involved in the internet spaceship destruction process was willing to do so, or having in mind that they might lose imagined currency they speed time on. Is called "another good fight" if one of the party involved in the internet spaceship destruction process wasn't willing to do so or to be doing so, (in some extreme cases, one paticipate was fielding an overhelming force to continuely and intensionally killing the very same dude) is considered griefing to the victim but always thought otherwise by the opponent. Edit: as the op is comparing PvP class griefing, non-pvp griefing, i.e. the leaving corp example above me, was not considered
Tippia School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.04.06 21:01:00 - [10] Originally by: Barbelo Valentinian The only actual problem with common or garden griefing, and the reason why most developers try to minimise it, is because it tends to kill newbies' immersion - i.e. because it's directed at them personally (or perhaps generically as a newbie) ...which is also why CCP has a number of restrictions in place for the starter systems - actions that are SOP and completely legal elsewhere are explicitly prohibited in these systems. Iow: they're trying to minimise it as well, albeit less so than many others.

Overwhelmed	Posted - 2008.04.06 21:10:00 - [11] Edited by: Overwhelmed on 06/04/2008 21:11:46 I never had any problems with griefers as a newbie and I'm not sure it drives them away. The incredible amount of freedom EVE allows was the big draw that made me sign up with plans to say for a long time. Age of Conan? Carebear garbage. WAR? "zomg kill the healer" is not "war." One of the more genius design implementations of EVE is that it is a griefer's paradise... but that is also what allows the world to breathe. Death and Taxes had Kel'Thuzad, BoB has Goonswarm. Guess which one is actually a different fight every time? In fact watch this video and tell me a WoW'er wouldn't think thats a "raid boss." ---------------------------------------------------------- Posting And You Disclaimer: This is a meta-game alt for meta-game discussions.
Hannobaal Shadow Forces Inc.	Posted - 2008.04.06 21:39:00 - [12] Edited by: Hannobaal on 06/04/2008 21:41:38 (Thank you, Crumplecorn.)
Jenny Spitfire	Posted - 2008.04.06 23:47:00 - [13] So is bulling a from of griefin, forcing figths to peopel who can't figth or don't went to fight? --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Recruitment -KB-
Drake Dracoli	Posted - 2008.04.06 23:49:00 - [14] Someone should pew pew Barbelo's face and see if she considers it to be grief or not. Only then, shall we truly know! ------ \o/ Raise thy weapons on this day Ye shall not die alone Fight and die; let valkyries fly For they shall take thee home!
Rawr Cristina Naqam	Posted - 2008.04.07 00:31:00 - [15] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire So is bulling a from of griefin, forcing figths to peopel who can't figth or don't went to fight? in a game what's strongest point is non-consensual pvp? Not really... ...
Shakuul	Posted - 2008.04.07 00:40:00 - [16] Originally by: Barbelo Valentinian Griefing is a different thing from PvP per se - it's defined by it's aim and intent, not the mechanism by which it's delivered (in the case of EVE, "harsh" game mechanics); the aim and intent being simply to entertain oneself at someone else's expense, and for no in-game purpose. I think the way you've defined griefing means that pvp and griefing are linked. In EVE's pvp, you are always entertaining yourself at someone else's expense (they lose ships), and it need not be for some in game purpose. Empire wars are often declared just for the hell of it, if corp members are getting bored, to boost corp morale, etc.
Zeba	Posted - 2008.04.07 00:41:00 - [17] PVP in Eve IS griefing. But as its a valid game mechanic then there is no issue. Originally by: Malcanis Too many people confuse "Waah, I didn't get my own way" with 'poor customer service'.
Treean	Posted - 2008.04.07 01:53:00 - [18] Everything is relative. The community stance on it will ultimately be determined by the opinion of the majority and not the vocal few who **** and moan on these forums day in and day out while playing (whether that be 3p33ning or caerbearing). The single handedly worst element of this game are the forums. They're like a black hole that suck you in and before you know it you're entirely flustered while yelling at some moron in a virtual world.
Priest Amarr Temple's Gate	Posted - 2008.04.07 02:02:00 - [19] Originally by: Zeba PVP in Eve IS griefing. But as its a valid game mechanic then there is no issue. Isn't it exactly the point OP trying to make? If PVP is a valid game mechanic, if that is part of this universe then it really can not be called griefing. Griefing , by its definition, is a negative word, PvP is not. PvP actually means Player versus Player, which is not a bad thing. This subject has a lot to do with how people are taught when they are young (in this case, eve age). I will give you an example from planet earth. There are team sports on that planet. A number of players get together in order to compete their opponents. That is a form of PvP. Players are competing against other players. Those players never talk about griefing when they lose a point. Every kid on earth is taught that as long as they are on field and compete by rules its part of the game. Now we are coming back to New Eden. Every time a new person joins Eve first thing he hears is another person can engage him and when it happens he will be harassed . Of course nobody would want to be harassed. Instead of showing people how to be part of the team and game if you keep repeating they will be harassed in Eve and harassment is part of this universe they will start feeling bad about the environment they are in. This is like teaching children on planet earth , other team will be harassing them every time they score a goal and then adding but its ok because this sport is about harassing each other. People who were raised with PvP is griefing idea already believes in it and it might be too difficult to show them otherwise. There are also quite few people who enjoys repeating Eve is all about harassing other people and this is intended , hoping you will soon start believing in them and become upset in the future. I don think they can be easily stopped either. There is one group I am hoping to reach with this post , new residents of New Eden. With the right attitude towards this universe everything can be different for you. The first step is always very important. You hear many things about how to fit ships but your attitude is a lot more important than your ship and wealth. You have a chance to start with right attitude. May Blessings Be With You Priest Amarr
Sparkinator Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.04.07 02:03:00 - [20] Originally by: Barbelo Valentinian There have been some fascinating discussions on the topic of griefing recently. I would like to just wrap up one thing that's become obvious to me in the course of these discussions. There are two general classes of arguments flying across the battlements here both of which I think miss the point. On the one hand you have people who do think PvP per se is griefing. They're wrong. But on the other hand, you have people who accept that definition, but argue, "PvP is part of EVE, therefore griefing is part of EVE". They're wrong too. PvP is part of EVE, but PvP is not in and of itself griefing, no matter how "brutal" that PvP may be, how hard the loss is to bear; but at the same time, griefing is not, and should not, be part of EVE. Or, if it is now, that's probably an unintended consequence of the game mechanic (or, maybe, it was slyly intended at one point by the devs, perhaps in an effort to look cool, perhaps in an effort to be clever and corner a neglected market niche of griefer subscribers). Griefing is a different thing from PvP per se - it's defined by it's aim and intent, not the mechanism by which it's delivered (in the case of EVE, "harsh" game mechanics); the aim and intent being simply to entertain oneself at someone else's expense, and for no in-game purpose. Griefing being so defined, it's important not to exaggerate the problem, and to bear in mind that it's not necesarily a real-world morally wrong action (it is after all usually just a bit of fun - although it can shade into a morally wrong real-world action, in which case it becomes petitionable harrassment). The only actual problem with common or garden griefing, and the reason why most developers try to minimise it, is because it tends to kill newbies' immersion - i.e. because it's directed at them personally (or perhaps generically as a newbie) it pulls them out of the game a bit, so to speak, makes them self conscious rather than immersed in the game, and therefore makes them less likely to keep subscribing; also it's annoying for devs because it nullifies and (metaphorically speaking) spits on all the work they put in to making the game world immersive. This means it's a problem for the game - but only IF the game is a roleplaying game in which immersion plays an important part, IF the intention of the developers is to gradually increase subscriber figures, and IF they're proud of the immmersiveness of the game world they created. Excellent post =) Too bad most people don't understand it and reply with their regular "I'm right because I said so" mentality. But kudos on being very open and presenting it in a way intellectuals can applaud you for, I'd give you a cookie if I had one =) --------------------------- Your neighborhood sociopath.

Blane Xero The Firestorm Cartel	Posted - 2008.04.07 02:34:00 - [21] In after the ****storm
Rawr Cristina Naqam	Posted - 2008.04.07 02:40:00 - [22] Originally by: Zeba PVP in Eve IS griefing. No that's just you and your quad-account nanogang being all... nanoey ...
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2008.04.07 05:18:00 - [23] Why not use the other 8 threads on the same topic you have been posting in (as a quick check of your last posts shows) Why start a new thread about exactly the same thing.
Zeba Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.04.07 06:09:00 - [24] Originally by: Rawr Cristina Originally by: Zeba PVP in Eve IS griefing. No that's just you and your quad-account nanogang being all... nanoey Hey! I was only using 3 accounts that night. And why the sad face? It wasn't like I could touch your anti-nano overheated webber Drake. <3 But tbh I was doing the nano thing those nights to test out its anti-nano effectiveness. After a while people got tired of me orbiting them safely pounding away and started bringning thier own nanoships in. Thats when the fun started. After several hours of back and forth fighting I can safely say that if you are in a nano gang and see some huggies, zealots and curses on the scanner then just warp away as you will die horribly. All in all it was a fun learning experience for all involved and I think that most of the ffa inhabitants were well chuffed having finally adapted to the point that I was pretty much expelled from the arenas. Thats when I activated the fourth account and introduced them to the nano rook. Epic lulz then commenced. Originally by: Priest Amarr Originally by: Zeba PVP in Eve IS griefing. But as its a valid game mechanic then there is no issue. Isn't it exactly the point OP trying to make? If PVP is a valid game mechanic, if that is part of this universe then it really can not be called griefing. Griefing , by its definition, is a negative word, PvP is not. PvP actually means Player versus Player, which is not a bad thing. Tell that to the guys over in C&P. So yes pvp in Eve is greifing. Maybe not so much in other mmos with pvp but definitly in Eve for quite a good portion of the pvp orinted playerbase. Originally by: Malcanis Too many people confuse "Waah, I didn't get my own way" with 'poor customer service'.
Lurana Lay Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.04.07 07:20:00 - [25] Final truth is: Griefing is defined by intent, not the specific activity.
Rawr Cristina	Posted - 2008.04.07 07:29:00 - [26] Edited by: Rawr Cristina on 07/04/2008 07:31:33 Originally by: Zeba Hey! I was only using 3 accounts that night. And why the sad face? It wasn't like I could touch your anti-nano overheated webber Drake. <3 overheated double-sanshas webber MWD drake with a stab and ECM drones fyi I must have killed about 8 Vagabonds with that thing, solo... ... Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
EnslaverOfMinmatar	Posted - 2008.04.07 08:05:00 - [27] blah blah blah there is a very small chance that it can be proved to a carebear that pvp is not griefing. there is no point to argue either, because even if you convince 1 carebear, the rest will still think that pvp is griefing. so just keep killing them. Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Ashireka	Posted - 2008.04.07 18:25:00 - [28] "Griefing" to me is when someone systematically prevents another player, usually of a much lower "level", from actually being able to do anything in the game, because they are getting killed almost as fast as they respawn. In many games, this is accompanied by 'camping'. I don't think this happens that often in EVE, or at least, I've been lucky enough to never see it happening. The fact that you could be attacked while mining a belt in high-sec, though, isn't griefing, based on this definition. Because you don't spawn at the belt. If you do get ganked here, you spawn elsewhere. If you go back and get ganked again, it's your own fault. Now, you could camp the stations, but between the sentry guns and Concord, you have to be REALLY prepared to handle the heat -- and really, if you're at that level, there's really no value to griefing the noobs simply trying to leave the station in their noobships. Camping in nullsec, or even lowsec, though... Well, there's a reason the security levels are so low. And moving into those systems is also a choice. In short, it's griefing if the other person (aka victim) really has no choice, no alternatives, and has no fighting chance. That trifecta rarely occurs in EVE, from what I've seen. -Ash
Hannobaal Shadow Forces Inc.	Posted - 2008.04.07 18:38:00 - [29] Originally by: Ashireka Now, you could camp the stations, but between the sentry guns and Concord, you have to be REALLY prepared to handle the heat No one can. It isn't possible to tank Concord, or attack anyone while Concord is there (since they jam you). With one single exception, you can't kill people except in the time it takes Concord to get on the scene. The exception being if you are using smartbombs, and then you have to be able to kill them in one hit from your smartbombs cause Concord will kill you right after that.
VicturusTeSaluto Metafarmers	Posted - 2008.04.07 18:41:00 - [30] just stop. "griefing", and "pvp" are fruity, made up terms that have no relevance at all to gaming. Such concepts do not actually exist, and this limp-wristed crap makes no sense. Killing has always been the sole point of gaming, no need for weirdo crap like that.

Djinn Phluxx Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.04.07 20:56:00 - [31] Just curious....how does everyone feel about the following definitions? PvP = Consensual (or not) combat between two or more players Griefing (player definition) = Nonconsensual attacking of one player obviously outmatched and outclassed by another player (or group) for no substantial benefit. i.e. They just wanted to gank someone or wanted more kill mail...they didn't scan cargo and find a rare mod they wanted to get their hands on Griefing (ccp definition) = 1 (or more) players consistently going after the same person in an attempt to frustrate or annoy them into some type of reaction...loss of gameplay or whatever. I suppose I'm mainly asking about the first two. CCP has already defined what they call griefing in their terms of service.
Everyone Dies Lucky Tampon	Posted - 2008.04.07 21:20:00 - [32] Originally by: Djinn Phluxx Just curious....how does everyone feel about the following definitions? PvP = Consensual (or not) combat between two or more players Griefing (player definition) = Nonconsensual attacking of one player obviously outmatched and outclassed by another player (or group) for no substantial benefit. i.e. They just wanted to gank someone or wanted more kill mail...they didn't scan cargo and find a rare mod they wanted to get their hands on Griefing (ccp definition) = 1 (or more) players consistently going after the same person in an attempt to frustrate or annoy them into some type of reaction...loss of gameplay or whatever. I suppose I'm mainly asking about the first two. CCP has already defined what they call griefing in their terms of service. QFT
Djinn Phluxx	Posted - 2008.04.07 21:30:00 - [33] Yes...I forgot a definition. Attacking for benefit...between pvp and griefing (player)... = attacking a lesser opponent because you need something he has.
Hamfast	Posted - 2008.04.07 21:33:00 - [34] Originally by: Djinn Phluxx Just curious....how does everyone feel about the following definitions? PvP = Consensual (or not) combat between two or more players Griefing (player definition) = Nonconsensual attacking of one player obviously outmatched and outclassed by another player (or group) for no substantial benefit. i.e. They just wanted to gank someone or wanted more kill mail...they didn't scan cargo and find a rare mod they wanted to get their hands on Griefing (ccp definition) = 1 (or more) players consistently going after the same person in an attempt to frustrate or annoy them into some type of reaction...loss of gameplay or whatever. I suppose I'm mainly asking about the first two. CCP has already defined what they call griefing in their terms of service. I agree with you, but also understand that "griefing" is more the determination of the victim and not the "Griefer"... Like so many other things, the opinion of one side seem to outweigh the motivations of the other... with no real definitive definition it is simply a feeling that determines if in fact some action is griefing. You blow up my Iteron 3, I call you a grieferà your friend scoops up my 2 billion in faction modules and calls me an idiotà in truth, only one is true, but in perception, both areà --------*****-------- Learn and be informed, because a Politicians worst nightmare is an informed voter... So choose your CSM Candidates wisely
Primnproper Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.04.07 21:48:00 - [35] Originally by: Treean The single handedly worst element of this game are the forums. They're like a black hole that suck you in and before you know it you're entirely flustered while yelling at some moron in a virtual world. Oh god its true
Hannobaal Shadow Forces Inc.	Posted - 2008.04.08 15:31:00 - [36] Originally by: Djinn Phluxx Griefing (player definition) = Nonconsensual attacking of one player obviously outmatched and outclassed by another player (or group) for no substantial benefit. i.e. They just wanted to gank someone or wanted more kill mail...they didn't scan cargo and find a rare mod they wanted to get their hands on This definition is useless in Eve. If you define griefing this way, then a non-consensual pvp combat based game like Eve just isn't for you.
I Believe DAB	Posted - 2008.04.08 15:46:00 - [37] Originally by: Barbelo Valentinian ...Griefing is a different thing from PvP per se - it's defined by it's aim and intent, not the mechanism by which it's delivered (in the case of EVE, "harsh" game mechanics); the aim and intent being simply to entertain oneself at someone else's expense, and for no in-game purpose... I Roam 0.0 blowing up anyone neut/red to entertain myself, it's at someone else's expense, i rarely gain anything in-game for it(some t2 loot, but that's hardly enough to say I profit considered what my losses cost me), am I greifing? Don't really give a rats ass myself, just pointing out that your definition is weak.
Jonathan Calvert Empire Mining and Trade	Posted - 2008.04.08 16:01:00 - [38] Lets say someone wants to use a gate in hi sec, and someone keeps bumping them off, just for the fun of annoying him. They try to warp out and the guy bumps them from doing that. The guy basically stuck. His only choice is to log off. Is that greifing? If so, how do we make a defintition of that? And should it be prevented by CCP?
Hannobaal Shadow Forces Inc.	Posted - 2008.04.08 16:13:00 - [39] Originally by: Jonathan Calvert Lets say someone wants to use a gate in hi sec, and someone keeps bumping them off, just for the fun of annoying him. They try to warp out and the guy bumps them from doing that. The guy basically stuck. His only choice is to log off. Is that greifing? Yes. Quote: And should it be prevented by CCP? It is. You can petition them.
Alora Venoda GalTech Giant Space Amoeba	Posted - 2008.04.08 16:32:00 - [40] Edited by: Alora Venoda on 08/04/2008 16:34:29 1. i think being ganked and podded in your iteron mark 2 while running a courier mission through lowsec is technically "griefing" (unless there are corp/alliance politics involved) but it is also within the scope of normal allowed EVE gameplay. 2. can-baiting and repeatedly ganking a new player in a starter system is just plain cruel and CCP will punish players that do it. both of these examples are a big turn-off for new players, but with lowsec there are in-game warnings and it's all part of the game. tbh to many bears there is a kind of PvP artform of avoiding combat but to address the OP, which seems mainly to try and define "real PvP"... I would NOT call either of my examples "player vs player" combat any more than I would call shooting fish in a barrel "fishing". they are both "player killing" instead. there is no "versus" unless you call trying to escape (often not possible) a valid opposition force to the aggressor. and in lowsec, to some degree you know the risks and avoiding the bad guys, scouting ahead, etc is all part of the game. but new players don't know much about all that and stand no chance. but all this makes no claim to whether such grief-play is legit or not, except in regards to specifically hunting and exploiting new players - which CCP has specifically said to be a punishable offense. ~~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~ Take away the risk and it would make flying around in space utterly pointless. Take away the flying around part and you make EVE into a space themed spreadsheet application.

Zanpt Lone Star Mining and Manufacturing Ultionis Quietus	Posted - 2008.04.08 19:40:00 - [41] CCP says: Quote: A grief player, or "griefer," is a player who devotes much of his time to making othersÆ lives miserable, in a large part deriving his enjoyment of the game from these activities while he does not profit from it in any way. Grief tactics are the mechanics a griefer will utilize to antagonize other players. This should not be confused with standard conflict that might arise between two players. At our discretion, players who are found to be consistently maliciously interfering with the game experience for others may receive a warning, temporary suspension or permanent banning of his account. What some people call "PvP" in Eve is nothing more than grief play. To be sure there is PvP in Eve, but there are also players who even openly state that their goal is nothing more than to ruin someone's day, and many who do that without stating it openly. PvP is not just any pew-pew, but many players seem to think that any lopsided scenario they can concoct to slaughter other players constitutes PvP because there is shooting involved. Not so. Unfortunately CCP doesn't seem to live up to their own words and do nothing about it.
Jonathan Calvert Empire Mining and Trade	Posted - 2008.04.08 21:33:00 - [42] Originally by: Hannobaal Originally by: Jonathan Calvert Lets say someone wants to use a gate in hi sec, and someone keeps bumping them off, just for the fun of annoying him. They try to warp out and the guy bumps them from doing that. The guy basically stuck. His only choice is to log off. Is that greifing? Yes. Quote: And should it be prevented by CCP? It is. You can petition them. Ok, then what about invading someones mission and bumping them to keep them from warping out, while your buddies come in an suicide them? You have no ability to avoid the behavior by shooting as you would get blown up by CONCORD. Isnt there an issue with someone being able to shoot you, without you being able to shoot first? The only solution I could see would be to prevent players from firing on any ship they are not at war with or have kill rights on. Not just punishing.
Hannobaal Shadow Forces Inc.	Posted - 2008.04.08 21:40:00 - [43] Originally by: Zanpt CCP says: Quote: A grief player, or "griefer," is a player who devotes much of his time to making othersÆ lives miserable, in a large part deriving his enjoyment of the game from these activities while he does not profit from it in any way. Grief tactics are the mechanics a griefer will utilize to antagonize other players. This should not be confused with standard conflict that might arise between two players. At our discretion, players who are found to be consistently maliciously interfering with the game experience for others may receive a warning, temporary suspension or permanent banning of his account. What some people call "PvP" in Eve is nothing more than grief play. To be sure there is PvP in Eve, but there are also players who even openly state that their goal is nothing more than to ruin someone's day, and many who do that without stating it openly. PvP is not just any pew-pew, but many players seem to think that any lopsided scenario they can concoct to slaughter other players constitutes PvP because there is shooting involved. Not so. Unfortunately CCP doesn't seem to live up to their own words and do nothing about it. Why don't you just be honest about it and straight out say "I want Eve to be consesual pvp combat only"? Eve is a war game, and there is no fairness or duelling in war. Get over it.
Jonathan Calvert Minmatar Empire Mining and Trade	Posted - 2008.04.09 12:15:00 - [44] In that case, I should be allowed to shoot first in high sec without getting CONCORDed.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. The Volition Cult	Posted - 2008.04.09 12:41:00 - [45] Originally by: Zanpt CCP says: Quote: A grief player, or "griefer," is a player who devotes much of his time to making othersÆ lives miserable, in a large part deriving his enjoyment of the game from these activities while he does not profit from it in any way. Grief tactics are the mechanics a griefer will utilize to antagonize other players. This should not be confused with standard conflict that might arise between two players. At our discretion, players who are found to be consistently maliciously interfering with the game experience for others may receive a warning, temporary suspension or permanent banning of his account. What some people call "PvP" in Eve is nothing more than grief play. To be sure there is PvP in Eve, but there are also players who even openly state that their goal is nothing more than to ruin someone's day, and many who do that without stating it openly. PvP is not just any pew-pew, but many players seem to think that any lopsided scenario they can concoct to slaughter other players constitutes PvP because there is shooting involved. Not so. Unfortunately CCP doesn't seem to live up to their own words and do nothing about it. Where on earth did you get the idea that only "fair" combat is PvP? Certainly not from CCP. All combat in EvE is fundamentally fair anyway: we all get the same options at character creation to apply to the same map. Maybe the competition does start a little earlier than you realised, but hey, now you know. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Jonathan Calvert Minmatar Empire Mining and Trade	Posted - 2008.04.10 12:23:00 - [46] Who provides safety then? It cant be me as Im not allowed to stop someone who is about to shoot me. I can only run away. Then the police show up, kill the bad guy, pay us both for our ship losses, and Im down hundreds of millions in equipment, while the bad guy buys another ship and does it again. I could declare war on the bad guy, but he is a civilian (NPC corp), and in any case, is just a friend of someone else (alt), and so never actually plays. Im not complaining, as I have adapted. Just making a point.
Hannobaal Gallente Shadow Forces Inc.	Posted - 2008.04.10 12:35:00 - [47] Originally by: Jonathan Calvert In that case, I should be allowed to shoot first in high sec without getting CONCORDed. So you can lose your ship and valuables without your attacker losing his ship to Concord?
Grarr Dexx Amarr laloutre Corp	Posted - 2008.04.10 12:37:00 - [48] Undocking means you give your consent to any type of attack against you. If you want to stay a carebear, trade, invent, or do production and earn your money that way.
Ieu Duin Amarr Star Sabre Industries Dark Taboo	Posted - 2008.04.10 13:13:00 - [49] Originally by: An Anarchyyt Edited by: An Anarchyyt on 06/04/2008 20:46:53 To sum up the argument: People do not understand that the phrase "to grief" is not the same as griefing. So causing grief, is not griefing. Etc etc This is absolutely incorrect. The root word of griefing is to cause grief. "Griefing" is to cause repeated grief to in individual or group for no other purpose other than to impact their game play or self gratification. PvP in and of itself is not griefing, but PvP in general gets shaded as griefing by the types of players it attracts. If PvPers don't want to lumped into the griefing crowd then they should clean out their gene pool. This is difficult for them to do because if you PvP just for PvP then you tend to get a little board and those softer targets begin to look more attractive. Quote: There are no fair fights in EVE. If you're in a fair fight, you planned wrong. -- Agent Li, Caldari, Galactic Defence Consortium, BLACKHAWK FEDERATION
Huberek Morchu	Posted - 2008.04.10 15:35:00 - [50] Originally by: Grarr Dexx Undocking means you give your consent to any type of attack against you. If you want to stay a carebear, trade, invent, or do production and earn your money that way. I believe Im arguing FOR the ability to fight, not against it. When the guy who is attacking me without provication in high sec undocks, that should mean hes given consent for me to blow him up first.

Huberek Morchu	Posted - 2008.04.10 15:36:00 - [51] Originally by: Hannobaal Originally by: Jonathan Calvert In that case, I should be allowed to shoot first in high sec without getting CONCORDed. So you can lose your ship and valuables without your attacker losing his ship to Concord? Youre assuming I would lose the fight. In this case, the guy who is about to attack me losed his ship. Concord can thus go back to eating donuts.
Nyabinghi Minmatar Re-Awakened Technologies Inc Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.04.10 15:44:00 - [52] I tend to think that if EVE was a FPS multiplayer game you'd have one player or team with rocket launchers and the other player or team with knives. The only place you can even hope for a fair fight in EVE is 0.0. ***
Hannobaal Gallente Shadow Forces Inc.	Posted - 2008.04.10 16:06:00 - [53] Originally by: Huberek Morchu Originally by: Hannobaal Originally by: Jonathan Calvert In that case, I should be allowed to shoot first in high sec without getting CONCORDed. So you can lose your ship and valuables without your attacker losing his ship to Concord? Youre assuming I would lose the fight. Yep
Hugh Ruka Caldari Exploratio et Industria Morispatia	Posted - 2008.04.10 16:07:00 - [54] well ... I think the OP is mixing things up ... Griefing is defined by the intent, PvP is a means (or one of them) to achieve that intent. So on occasion PvP = griefing (however not always). Thus in our scenario BOTH arguments are correct. In EvE, PvP is one of the most effective and readily (sp?) available means to grief another player. Others are various kinds of theft (loot, ore etc), various kinds of obstruction (bumping, killstealing etc ...). So the discussion is a bit pointless. As BOTH parties are correct (however each in his case). Waiting for the patch that patches the last patch ...
Nielas	Posted - 2008.04.10 17:11:00 - [55] The problem here is that EVE is simply not hardcore enough. When it comes to cosequences of your actions it is very much a 'carebear' game. The rules on what is allowed and what is not, are arbitrary and do not follow through to logical conclusions. Ultimately an action is defined by its consequences. As long as the consequences of PvP, PKing and griefing, whatever you definition, are basicly the same any distinction between them is meaningless.
Tidas Andrommeda Metafarmers	Posted - 2008.04.10 17:56:00 - [56] Edited by: Tidas Andrommeda on 10/04/2008 17:57:34 /me sighs and points to Crumplecorn's sigs Edit: Originally by: cal nereus I like it when ships outrun missiles. It adds flavor to my soup. And by soup I mean gaming experience. And by flavor I mean "haha, you use missiles!"


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