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Low SP Apocalypse L4 Setup

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Gotrek Gurnisson	Posted - 2008.04.07 09:54:00 - [1] Ive been running through L4's with my Geddon and am just about to switch to a shiny new Apoc. With my current skills I found that the Geddons range was severely lacking with T1 Pulses, and switched to Megabeams which has made life much easier. So I was wondering what the best way to setup an Apoc should be? I have thought of a number of different possible setups and was seeking feedback from other players. One of the questions I need sorting out - does the range bonus of the Apoc give T1 megapulses enough dps at 50km to compete with megabeams at the same range? (Most BS fights I am in are between 35km-50km range - and Im currently unsure if the pulses can keep up with beams when the sniper bonus is taken into consideration). DISCLAIMER: I am not even close to using T2 guns yet so please dont put them into any suggested builds! ------------------------------- 'Standard' Mission Running: High: 6 x Modulated Tachyon, 2 x Arbalest Assault Launcher Medium: 3 x Cap Recharger II, 1 x Sensor Booster Low: 1 Large Carapice Repairer, 5 x Rat specific Hardener, 1 x CPR II Rigs: 1 CCC, 2 x Aux Nano Pump Drones: Mediums / Heavy as appropriate ------------------------------ 'Medium Tank' Mission Running (more buffer): High: 7 x Modulated Megabeams, 1 Arbalest Assault Launcher Medium: 3 x Cap Recharger II, 1 x Sensor Booster Low: 1 Large Carapice Repairer, 5 x Rat specific Hardener, 1 x 1600mm Tungsten Plate Rigs: 1 CCC, 2 x Aux Nano Pump Drones: Mediums / Heavy as appropriate --------------------------------------- 'Heavy Tank' Mission Running (even more buffer): High: 8 x Modulated MegaPulse Medium: 3 x Cap Recharger II, 1 x Sensor Booster Low: 1 Large Carapice Repairer, 4 x Rat specific Hardener, 2 x 1600mm Tungsten Plate Rigs: 1 CCC, 2 x Aux Nano Pump Drones: Mediums / Heavy as appropriate --------------------------------------- Thanks for any comments, Gotrek Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Dormuth Purifier FREE GATES ACADEMY	Posted - 2008.04.07 10:17:00 - [2] mine is this works like charm.48 km optimal with standard, 330 dps. [Apocalypse, New Setup 1] Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Tracking Enhancer II Armor EM Hardener II Armor Thermic Hardener II Armor Thermic Hardener II Large Armor Repairer II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Optical Tracking Computer I, Optimal Range Mega Modulated Pulse Energy Beam I, Amarr Navy Standard L Mega Modulated Pulse Energy Beam I, Amarr Navy Standard L Mega Modulated Pulse Energy Beam I, Amarr Navy Standard L Mega Modulated Pulse Energy Beam I, Amarr Navy Standard L Mega Modulated Pulse Energy Beam I, Amarr Navy Standard L Mega Modulated Pulse Energy Beam I, Amarr Navy Standard L Mega Modulated Pulse Energy Beam I, Amarr Navy Standard L Mega Modulated Pulse Energy Beam I, Amarr Navy Standard L Auxiliary Nano Pump I Auxiliary Nano Pump I Capacitor Control Circuit I
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves Black Star Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.07 10:25:00 - [3] The real clue to a good apoc is optimal range rigs and tracking enhancers/computers. Since those rigs don't stack with modules for some reason, you can beef up your optimal quite a bit this way, allowing you to hit out to 45ish km with X-Rays. You give up a lot of tank, but seriously, if you use the apoc competently you should not NEED that tanking. There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Scorpion There is no 'e' in Caldari There is no makeup in rogue drones
Gotrek Gurnisson Midnight Enterprises	Posted - 2008.04.07 10:32:00 - [4] Edited by: Gotrek Gurnisson on 07/04/2008 10:32:35 Thanks for that ship fit. My builds are still a little heavy on the tank as I only started running L4's this last weekend - and simply havent a clue about the relative difficulty of each one. The kill mission survival guide is a useful starting point but can only tell you so much in advance of actually trying it. I did at one point have a rather strange build for my Geddon involving 6 Megabeams with a 6 hardener, 20k Armor tank (85% resist) when I decided I would tank the first room in Recon (1 of 3) instead of doing the sensible thing and going through the first gate. I figure if I can manage to tank and kill 7 BS simultaneously in a Geddon then the Apoc should be capable of doing the harder L4's with little problem? Im know the Apoc has a much better tank in comparison to the geddon - but just how reliant is it on using Heat Sinks to get additional DPS? Will I have enough dps to break most BS tanks without the heat sinks? How much longer will missions take in comparison to my somewhat overtanked geddon?
Dormuth Purifier FREE GATES ACADEMY	Posted - 2008.04.07 10:39:00 - [5] Edited by: Dormuth Purifier on 07/04/2008 10:41:51 Don't overtank, lvl 4-s are not that hard if you watch for the aggro. Try to find the balance between Tank and Gank. And don't use plate in missions, put a Heat Sink there.4 Hardener is enough for all of them.And drop the sensor booster too, put a Cap Recharger there.Only use sensor booster when you snipe them from long (70-80 km+) distance. With hard missions like Blockade, try to snipe them from 80+ km with Megabeams on tha Apoc, and you will be fine. Edit: and at least two Heat Sink is a must!
J'Mkarr Soban Proxenetae Invicti	Posted - 2008.04.07 11:08:00 - [6] I use tachys religiously (no pun intended) and I have never been happier with any weapon I've found thus far in the game. The power is simply staggering, and despite what people say about tracking and optimal, I sit with MF in there and hit out to 50km easily (although not always particularly well). I rarely, if ever, have to change. And this works all the way down to frigates. The sign of a really good mission runner is not their fit, but their aggro management. I will aggro a pocket at 70+km, and wait till the frigates come in range and get them first (one shots - not even one volleys). Then the cruisers, then the BSs. Sometimes I can clear the frigs so quickly that I have to wait until the cruisers are in range again before going for them. (By range I mean 39km - I'm in a Paladin, and that's the range of the tractors. There are only very few battleships that stay out of 40km orbit. Makes for an easy mission ). I've not use the new Apoc (in fact I've never flown one) but with MF you'd be looking at a pretty sick range with Tachys. (I can't comment on the effectiveness of pulse and beam, I'm a pure range man myself). -- These are my personal views and in no way represent the views of Proxenetae Invicti, which maintains a neutral stance stemming from the strong ethics demanded of its work.
Richard Third The Scope	Posted - 2008.04.07 11:21:00 - [7] Start with the setup suggested to you, use t2 drones for the scramming frigates, replace the 2 heat sinks with a DCUII and best named CPR. Good luck. -- You can't do that with a Planet.
Lord WarATron Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.04.07 11:47:00 - [8] Edited by: Lord WarATron on 07/04/2008 11:48:39 Get rid of plates. You do not need them. Also you can use 3 hardners for all lvl4's. You also need damage mods. In the past, ships lacked rigs but now with rigs, you have a easy time. use the following Apoc for low skilled pilots H: 8 x mega modulated pulse energy beam (This is a pulse, not a beam) M: Afterburner, 3 x Cap recharger II L: 2 x Large Armour Rep, 3 x Hardner II, 2 x Heatsink R: 3 x CCC Rigs Ok assuming you have low cap skills, it runs forever with 1 rep and guns. And with afterburner if you have have decent cap skills. If you do not plan on using a afterburner ever, drop it for a cap recharger. (BTW, the setup does not need advanced weapon upgrades but needs engineering lvl5, if you lack that, drop afterburner for recharger or tracking computer) Reason to avoid tach - Hitting a cruiser with 30% of your shots is not that good enough. Better to hit 60% of shots with pulse (nightmares are a exception due to tracking bonus etc). Apoc has optimal bonus so you can hit 20km with navy Multifreq for 500-600dps depending on skills, with upto 50km optimal with navy infared (250-350dps). Abaddons also make decent ships, but you need major cap skills for any sensible setup on that -- Billion Isk Mission
J'Mkarr Soban	Posted - 2008.04.07 12:05:00 - [9] Originally by: Lord WarATron Reason to avoid tach - Hitting a cruiser with 30% of your shots is not that good enough. I hit every single time when they get in MF range with Tachs. I call BS on this one. If you wait until they are orbiting you at 15km, you're doing it wrong. -- These are my personal views and in no way represent the views of Proxenetae Invicti, which maintains a neutral stance stemming from the strong ethics demanded of its work.
Gotrek Gurnisson	Posted - 2008.04.07 12:19:00 - [10] Originally by: J'Mkarr Soban I hit every single time when they get in MF range with Tachs. I call BS on this one. If you wait until they are orbiting you at 15km, you're doing it wrong. Ive found that Tachs can sensibly be used to hit anything cruiser sized beyond 25km - PROVIDED that you always choose 'approach' to turn the ship at the target. That cuts down transversal velocity and gives your guns a much better chance of hitting (especially if your ship was previously turning or moving at an angle to the target). (Note: I tested this extensively over the weekend with my Geddon on L4's when I was comparing the dps of different guns and the likelihood of them hitting different targets at different ranges). In the 25km-35km bracket Tachyons wont always hit cruisers - even if turning the ship to face the target. Any closer than 25km and transversal velocity usually prevents tachs from hitting cruisers altogether. BC are also hard to hit with Tachs at less than 15km. Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Lord WarATron Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.04.07 13:37:00 - [11] Edited by: Lord WarATron on 07/04/2008 13:37:09 Originally by: J'Mkarr Soban Originally by: Lord WarATron Reason to avoid tach - Hitting a cruiser with 30% of your shots is not that good enough. I hit every single time when they get in MF range with Tachs. I call BS on this one. If you wait until they are orbiting you at 15km, you're doing it wrong. A low skilled pilot wont have decent enough tracking skills to hit 100% of all mission cruisers with 100% of shots with tach. -- Billion Isk Mission
Gotrek Gurnisson	Posted - 2008.04.07 14:01:00 - [12] Originally by: Lord WarATron A low skilled pilot wont have decent enough tracking skills to hit 100% of all mission cruisers with 100% of shots with tach. As the low SP pilot in question I definitely agree with this statement! Any targets past 35km I can hit most of the time with Tachyons (including frigates). But inside 35km I start having problems (as listed above). Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
J'Mkarr Soban Proxenetae Invicti	Posted - 2008.04.07 14:07:00 - [13] Edited by: J''Mkarr Soban on 07/04/2008 14:09:51 Well, I don't move when I warp in. I sit still. I pick off what I can in the first aggro pocket if there are any, take the rest out with my drones, and then pull them back in. For every other pocket, I will aggro the pocket, and they come straight for me - virtually a zero transversal. I pop the frigs as they hit 40km (dead easy, one shot kills, as I said) then the cruisers, then the BS. There are very few missions where the rats are so close to me that I can't do the same thing. Or those where there may be a problem, like Blockade - that's one of the easiest missions I can do, as I sit at 100km from the spawn point and they all come at me with zero transversal. It's all about aggro management. I could do all this just as well with pulses, but the extra damage from Tachys makes it just that much quicker. -- These are my personal views and in no way represent the views of Proxenetae Invicti, which maintains a neutral stance stemming from the strong ethics demanded of its work.
Mr Reeth The Aegis Militia Aegis Militia	Posted - 2008.04.07 14:09:00 - [14] Sir, you are getting a lot of bad advise here. One of the difficulties of EVE is the lack of levels. This makes it hard for older players to give helpful fitting suggestions to younger players. If this were some other game and you asked what type of armor and weapons your lvl45 Hill Giant should have it would be a simple matter. But here itÆs not. First get EFT. You probably already have it but itÆs worth saying. Then worry about 2 things only, cap and tank. Get as cap stable as you can with your skills and then add another repper or armor plates. Overtank your ship! YouÆve just started, and if you mess up youÆll want the extra time to warp out. Lord Waratrons setup is the closest to right in my opinion. But you may want to swap out the AB for a tracking comp with either script or another cap mod. And donÆt run that AB the whole time. Shut it off when you are inside optimal range. 3 hardeners is the standard setup for lvl 4s in an Amarr BS. But lose a HS and start with 4 hardeners. 2 EM and 2 Thermal will serve you very well. DonÆt take any mission not against Bloods or Sanshaà NOT ANY! Your drones should be Hammerheads only. And be careful when taking advise from the oldies. They canÆt remember how hard lvl 4s can be to low skilled players.
J'Mkarr Soban Proxenetae Invicti	Posted - 2008.04.07 14:13:00 - [15] Originally by: Mr Reeth Sir, you are getting a lot of bad advise here. One of the difficulties of EVE is the lack of levels. This makes it hard for older players to give helpful fitting suggestions to younger players. If this were some other game and you asked what type of armor and weapons your lvl45 Hill Giant should have it would be a simple matter. But here it’s not. First get EFT. You probably already have it but it’s worth saying. Then worry about 2 things only, cap and tank. Get as cap stable as you can with your skills and then add another repper or armor plates. Overtank your ship! You’ve just started, and if you mess up you’ll want the extra time to warp out. Lord Waratrons setup is the closest to right in my opinion. But you may want to swap out the AB for a tracking comp with either script or another cap mod. And don’t run that AB the whole time. Shut it off when you are inside optimal range. 3 hardeners is the standard setup for lvl 4s in an Amarr BS. But lose a HS and start with 4 hardeners. 2 EM and 2 Thermal will serve you very well. Don’t take any mission not against Bloods or Sansha… NOT ANY! Your drones should be Hammerheads only. And be careful when taking advise from the oldies. They can’t remember how hard lvl 4s can be to low skilled players. This is very good advice. Ignore the nonsense about older players - the principles used by older players are exactly what should be used by younger players - we just get good enough that we can tweak it so that we don't need as much tank, but more gank for example. In saying that, everyone has their own playstyle. Play around, listen to all advice, try what you think works, make your own notes. We're all here to help, but in the end if you find something that works for you, use it! -- These are my personal views and in no way represent the views of Proxenetae Invicti, which maintains a neutral stance stemming from the strong ethics demanded of its work.
Jaketh Ivanes Do Or Die And Live Or Try The Kano Organisation	Posted - 2008.04.07 14:13:00 - [16] Originally by: Gotrek Gurnisson Originally by: Lord WarATron A low skilled pilot wont have decent enough tracking skills to hit 100% of all mission cruisers with 100% of shots with tach. As the low SP pilot in question I definitely agree with this statement! Any targets past 35km I can hit most of the time with Tachyons (including frigates). But inside 35km I start having problems (as listed above). A good way to counter this problem, is to fly parallel with the ships. You can lower your transversal enough to hit cruisers at 10km, even without a AB. It's a trick to master, as your BS turns like a turtle runs, but when you know how, it's sweet. Frigs have to be dealt with by drones, i'm afraid . I used Mega Beams for a long time in lvl 4's with no problems. Only time I used Tachs were in ritualistic raid, as you get no initial aggro and therefor plenty of time to get to range.
Lord WarATron	Posted - 2008.04.07 14:21:00 - [17] Edited by: Lord WarATron on 07/04/2008 14:22:33 Originally by: Gotrek Gurnisson Originally by: Lord WarATron A low skilled pilot wont have decent enough tracking skills to hit 100% of all mission cruisers with 100% of shots with tach. As the low SP pilot in question I definitely agree with this statement! Any targets past 35km I can hit most of the time with Tachyons (including frigates). But inside 35km I start having problems (as listed above). Quick question, How many Tach can you fit with a harderned tank? You may be surprised but if you dont have advanced weapon upgrades, you might be doing less DPS with tach rather than a standard pulse setup. (due to crazy tach fitting requirements). -- Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. Billion Isk Mission
Msobe Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2008.04.07 14:40:00 - [18] Originally by: Gotrek Gurnisson Ive been running through L4's with my Geddon and am just about to switch to a shiny new Apoc. With my current skills I found that the Geddons range was severely lacking with T1 Pulses, and switched to Megabeams which has made life much easier. So I was wondering what the best way to setup an Apoc should be? I have thought of a number of different possible setups and was seeking feedback from other players. One of the questions I need sorting out - does the range bonus of the Apoc give T1 megapulses enough dps at 50km to compete with megabeams at the same range? (Most BS fights I am in are between 35km-50km range - and Im currently unsure if the pulses can keep up with beams when the sniper bonus is taken into consideration). DISCLAIMER: I am not even close to using T2 guns yet so please dont put them into any suggested builds! <snip> Thanks for any comments, Gotrek Getting use out of the Apoc is going to depend a bit on your BS skill. If you're sitting at BS 2, I don't think the range bonus is going to help all that much. If you have 4/5, it is quite noticeable. If you have enough range to use pulses instead of beams, that helps. Tachyons are well and good, but at low SP you'll probably not like them much - you'll have a rough time fitting them, cap issues firing them, and tracking problems hitting anything that isn't moving directly at you. Later on when your skills compensate for that, they are wonderful. On the Apoc, your damage is pretty sad without heat sinks. You really want to find some room in your lows for 2. Better 3. The range bonus does help up your damage at any given range - the range bonus means you can usually use higher damage crystals at any given range than you could otherwise. Still, with no HS you'll struggle to break some BS tanks at all. Especially at low SP. Try to erase the idea of plates on a mission set up from you mind. They do buy you more time - but thats all they do. Eventually, that time will run out, and you go boom. Its much better to use those slots to build a tank that won't break - then you never run out of time, hence, no boom. You have plenty of resists already - if you're tanking to the rats you are fighting, more than enough. You should never need a plate. In cases where you do, a second repper is a better answer. Keep working on your tank - once you got that concept down, lvl 4's become routine. You are loading up launchers on some of those set ups. If you aren't using a heat sink at all, its not such a bad idea. Unorthodox, but it does make sense in your case. You save on cap, and missiles are guaranteed, selectable damage - a boon at low SP. Later on, when you do start using heat sinks, you'll want to rethink the launchers, since putting a laser in that slot would multiply the damage boost from that mod. Enjoy your Apoc - take the first missions slow, watch your aggro, and you'll get comfortable with it before you know it. ;-)
Rialtor Yarrrateers	Posted - 2008.04.07 15:22:00 - [19] Edited by: Rialtor on 07/04/2008 15:24:39 The Apoc is pretty forgiving to low level chars, so I think you made the right choice in choosing it. Personally I don't like Waratron's setup. Anything where you have to move to hit a target for decent damage isn't good for level 4s. 3 hardeners on a non-abaddon ship will make you warp out in the heavier dps missions. Most missions are easy and you should be able to pull it off. But ever since the EM resist change, I notice Sansha and blood breaking through the armor with more ease. I'd assume they'd break an aoc even easier with no resistance bonus, so I'd have to say nay to 3 hardeners on an apoc. Unless the mission is dirt easy anyway. Anyway my advice is to set it up like this: Hi 8xMega Modulated Pulse Energy Beams Mid 1xTracking COmputer II (or best named) 3xCap Recharger II Low 1xLAR II 4xHardeners II 2xHeatsink II Rigs 2xEnergy Locus Rigs 1xCCC If you need more tank, drop a heatsink for a DC II. IMO that's the optimal fit for a Apoc currently. And it's suited to low level chars as well. And use faction crystals, it'll improve your dmg considerably. Edit: If you find you need EVEN more tank...which I doubt get an amar navy repper. They're like what 100million now? once you're setup with a good runner that's like 5-6 hours of mission running to replace. It's lower fitting and will give you the better tank. ---- sig ---- Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world... Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has.
Gotrek Gurnisson	Posted - 2008.04.07 16:03:00 - [20] Originally by: Lord WarATron Quick question, How many Tach can you fit with a harderned tank? You may be surprised but if you dont have advanced weapon upgrades, you might be doing less DPS with tach rather than a standard pulse setup. (due to crazy tach fitting requirements). I found on the Geddon that megapulses just dont have the range (44km with Radio) - and a lot of Sansha BS like to sit 50-55km away out of range. I switched from pulses to beams to solve this problem. However when I was messing around in my Geddon I tried fitting Tachs and was instantly going "OMFGWTF - I just 2-volleyed the targets shields!". The damage modifier for Modulated Megabeams with my skills is 4.5. The damage modifier for T1 tachyons is 6.18! So as long as the target is far enough away to guarantee hitting (35km-45km+) it then Tachyons seems a no brainer..... I can fit 6 Tachyons and still have PG and CPU left for the other modules - and with the relative dmg modifiers the 6 Tachs are equivalent to 8.5 Megabeams (even better if I get some named Tachs)! (I have BS IV, Engineering V, Electronics V, and most other support skills to 3 or 4) On Megapulses the extra 30% range bonus for BS IV will allow me to use Infrared out to 55km. However at this range (which is typical of a lot of L4 missions) without range enhancers this will give significantly less dps than the Megabeams or Tachs can do with Gamma. Pulses may rock out to 40km with the extra range bonus - but with my skill set I have a feeling Beams / Tachs will do way more dmg in most BS vs BS fights in L4's. Just my 0.000001 pence worth Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Mr Reeth The Aegis Militia Aegis Militia	Posted - 2008.04.07 16:37:00 - [21] You 2 shot volleyed the shields huh? Wait till you get yourself high skills and a Nightmare or Paladin and start 2 shot volleying BSs and instapopping BCs. Or wait until you are killing things so fast you have trouble keeping ships in the target queue. You might want to start thinking about which of those 2 ships you want to go for now. Planning ahead is the biggest win in this game. IÆll sum them up for you real quick. If you have 2 billion isk the Paladin blows away the Nightmare. If you have 5 billion isk the Nightmare blows away the Paladin. Or you can just skip all the tech 2 and faction stuff and go right for a giant golden angelfish called the Revelation.
Madla Mafia The Dead Man's Hand	Posted - 2008.04.07 23:51:00 - [22] Originally by: Mr Reeth If you have 2 billion isk the Paladin blows away the Nightmare. If you have 5 billion isk the Nightmare blows away the Paladin. I don't get it.... ------------------------------------------ Amarr - getting screwed since 2005.
Lithalnas	Posted - 2008.04.08 00:13:00 - [23] Originally by: Mr Reeth You 2 shot volleyed the shields huh? Wait till you get yourself high skills and a Nightmare or Paladin and start 2 shot volleying BSs and instapopping BCs. Or wait until you are killing things so fast you have trouble keeping ships in the target queue. You might want to start thinking about which of those 2 ships you want to go for now. Planning ahead is the biggest win in this game. IÆll sum them up for you real quick. If you have 2 billion isk the Paladin blows away the Nightmare. If you have 5 billion isk the Nightmare blows away the Paladin. Or you can just skip all the tech 2 and faction stuff and go right for a giant golden angelfish called the Revelation. 1 win, 3 fails You dont always plan for bigger ships, you flesh out the ones you have. Secondly a Paladin can be set up for under 900mil, Nightmares for under 1.3bil. Anything over that is ether faction bling or dedspace stuff. Which might be nice but it may not be 2 bil isk nicer. And Third, a Paladin vs Nightmare is hard to call and its a roll of the dice. If the Nightmare brings ECM drones or does the Paladin have a massive sustainable tank. ------------- Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. fixed for greater eve content
Mr Reeth	Posted - 2008.04.08 03:00:00 - [24] Originally by: Lithalnas 1 win, 3 fails Just because you disagree does not make it a fail. Please reserve use of the word fail for obvious fails. Originally by: Lithalnas You dont always plan for bigger ships, you flesh out the ones you have. One should work in the present yet be mindful of the future. It can be very important to train with the future in mind as ships tend to advance in a line ie AF-HAC-Command Ship/Marauder or Cov Ops-Recon-Black Ops. Originally by: Lithalnas Secondly a Paladin can be set up for under 900mil, Nightmares for under 1.3bil. Anything over that is ether faction bling or dedspace stuff. Which might be nice but it may not be 2 bil isk nicer. The Paladin can be fit with tech 1 crap modules. It doesnÆt mean anyone does it. And I was including the price of the ship itself. So 850 mil plus 900 mil equals 1.75 bil. ThatÆs really close to the number I quoted isnÆt it? The Paladin does no have the grid to fit tachs and officer/deadspace mods. The Nightmare does. If you look at a faction fit setup for both, you will see the numbers support Paladin superiority. If you fit with expensive officer or deadspace modules the numbers show Nightmare superiority. Originally by: Lithalnas And Third, a Paladin vs Nightmare is hard to call and its a roll of the dice. If the Nightmare brings ECM drones or does the Paladin have a massive sustainable tank. I didnÆt mean in a fight. I meant at mission running.
Nomakai Delateriel	Posted - 2008.04.08 10:06:00 - [25] Originally by: Gotrek Gurnisson I can fit 6 Tachyons and still have PG and CPU left for the other modules - and with the relative dmg modifiers the 6 Tachs are equivalent to 8.5 Megabeams Someone said to reserve the fail for obvious fails so... FAIL! Take rate of fire into account thankyouverymuch. Raw dps from the Tachyons is about 7% more, but with range taken into account it's more like 10-15% more. Although a single tracking computer will compensate for the Tachyons range advantage (even without an optimal script). For missioning, if megabeams means that you can fit one extra gun or heatsink, then the megabeam setup is superior. End of story. ______________________________________________ -You can never earn my respect, only lose it. It's given freely, and only grudgingly retracted when necessary.
Gotrek Gurnisson Midnight Enterprises	Posted - 2008.04.08 12:36:00 - [26] Edited by: Gotrek Gurnisson on 08/04/2008 12:42:27 Edited by: Gotrek Gurnisson on 08/04/2008 12:39:39 Edited by: Gotrek Gurnisson on 08/04/2008 12:39:17 Edited by: Gotrek Gurnisson on 08/04/2008 12:37:17 Edited by: Gotrek Gurnisson on 08/04/2008 12:36:57 Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel Take rate of fire into account thankyouverymuch. Raw dps from the Tachyons is about 7% more, but with range taken into account it's more like 10-15% more. Although a single tracking computer will compensate for the Tachyons range advantage (even without an optimal script). For missioning, if megabeams means that you can fit one extra gun or heatsink, then the megabeam setup is superior. End of story. With my current skills: Tachyon (Modulated) dmg modifier = 6.5 Megabeam (Modulated) dmg modifier = 4.5 Tachyon (ROF) = 12.5 sec (standard ROF) Megabeam (ROF) = 9 sec (standard ROF) Tachyon (ROF) = 8.8 sec (actual ROF) Megabeam (ROF) = 6.5 sec (actual ROF) As both get modified by the same % modifier due to skills and heat sinks the Megabeams fire 38% more shots in any given time than Tachyons. @50km Distance Tachyons use Multifreq (28 EM, 20 Therm), or Gamma (28 EM, 16 Therm) Megabeam use Ultra-Violet (24 EM, 12 Therm) DPS per turret calculation: DPS = Crystal Damage * Damage Modifier / Time per Shot Tachyon (Multifreq) = (28+20) * 6.5 / 12.5 = 24.96 dps Tachyon (Gamma) = (28+16) * 6.5 / 12.5 = 22.88 dps Megabeam (UV) = (24+12) * 4.5 / 9 = 18 dps Tachyons with Multifreq do (25/18) = 138% damage compared to Megabeams with UV; Tachyons with Gamma do (22.8/18) = 126% damage compared to Megabeams with UV; In both cases Tachyons with Multi / Gamma do at least 25% extra dps at 50km. Hence my original statement stands and I DO NOT FAIL :-) For reference with my skills megapulses at 50km do roughly HALF the damage of megabeams at the same distance. Edit: And sadly my weapon upgrades skill doesnt yet allow me to fit any more than 6 Tachyons or 7 Megabeams to my Apoc. Based on the figures calculated above the 6 Tachyons do more dps than the Megabeams would at 50km (range I tend to fight most BS at). Edit 2: Bah I cant spell.
Gotrek Gurnisson Midnight Enterprises	Posted - 2008.04.08 14:09:00 - [27] Edited by: Gotrek Gurnisson on 08/04/2008 14:10:34 Edited by: Gotrek Gurnisson on 08/04/2008 14:08:48 A thought just occurred to me: Using the basic differene in damage modifiers Tachyons will ALWAYS deal 44% extra damage over Megabeams per shot. However, based on ROF Megabeams will ALWAYS fire 38% faster using the same ship fit. 44% dmg bonus from Tachs > 38% ROF bonus from Megabeams Therefore Tachs will ALWAYS out-damage Megabeams at ANY range if both are using an appropriate set of crystals. This means that even if you fit a tracking enhancer to extend the range of Megabeams the Tachyons will still rule for pure dps. However, you are paying a heavy price for the extra damage through 50% additional cap use for Tachyons - so its a case of sustained dps against sustained cap use. Edit: Minor reword for clarification.
Nomakai Delateriel Viziam	Posted - 2008.04.08 15:29:00 - [28] Originally by: Gotrek Gurnisson Tachyons use Multifreq (28 EM, 20 Therm), or Gamma (28 EM, 16 Therm) Megabeam use Ultra-Violet (24 EM, 12 Therm) DPS per turret calculation: DPS = Crystal Damage * Damage Modifier / Time per Shot Tachyon (Multifreq) = (28+20) * 6.5 / 12.5 = 24.96 dps Tachyon (Gamma) = (28+16) * 6.5 / 12.5 = 22.88 dps Megabeam (UV) = (24+12) * 4.5 / 9 = 18 dps Tachyons with Multifreq do (25/18) = 138% damage compared to Megabeams with UV; Tachyons with Gamma do (22.8/18) = 126% damage compared to Megabeams with UV; In both cases Tachyons with Multi / Gamma do at least 25% extra dps at 50km. Hence my original statement stands and I DO NOT FAIL :-) Yes you fail extremely hard. For any given mission range where a ship with Tachyons could use Multifrequency/Gamma then a Megabeam ship could match its range using crystals only one step up the ladder. Thus if the Tachyons use MFs, then a megabeam can match and breaks its range using Gammas. If the Tachyons are using Gammas, then the Megabeam could use Xray. Which means that the damage difference is at the highest...18 percent. 6x1.18 = 7.08. (Only failmath brings it up to 8.5) And given that the megabeams are using crystals with lower cap use (and lower cap requirements overall) it needs less cap. Less cap means one less cap recharger/cap power relay. Which means a tracking computer, tracking enhancer or heatsink. Which either completely eliminates the advantage of the Tachyons, or brings it back to 7% or less. 6x1.07= 6.42. Which means that you fail. Hard. ______________________________________________ -You can never earn my respect, only lose it. It's given freely, and only grudgingly retracted when necessary.
Lord WarATron Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.04.08 15:54:00 - [29] Originally by: Lithalnas Originally by: Mr Reeth You 2 shot volleyed the shields huh? Wait till you get yourself high skills and a Nightmare or Paladin and start 2 shot volleying BSs and instapopping BCs. Or wait until you are killing things so fast you have trouble keeping ships in the target queue. You might want to start thinking about which of those 2 ships you want to go for now. Planning ahead is the biggest win in this game. IÆll sum them up for you real quick. If you have 2 billion isk the Paladin blows away the Nightmare. If you have 5 billion isk the Nightmare blows away the Paladin. Or you can just skip all the tech 2 and faction stuff and go right for a giant golden angelfish called the Revelation. 1 win, 3 fails You dont always plan for bigger ships, you flesh out the ones you have. Secondly a Paladin can be set up for under 900mil, Nightmares for under 1.3bil. Anything over that is ether faction bling or dedspace stuff. Which might be nice but it may not be 2 bil isk nicer. And Third, a Paladin vs Nightmare is hard to call and its a roll of the dice. If the Nightmare brings ECM drones or does the Paladin have a massive sustainable tank. People should get away from expensive 900 -1.3bil fitouts. Only expensive items should be a few navy guns and t2 rigs. Any more than 300mil in loot can and eventually you will get ganked. There is no shortage of people happy to suicide gank mission runners who have 500mil+ fitouts. -- Billion Isk Mission
Gotrek Gurnisson Midnight Enterprises	Posted - 2008.04.08 16:11:00 - [30] Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel Which means that you fail. Hard. Or not, as WITH MY SKILLS these are the crystals with optimals closest to 50km - which I was using as my example distance. At other distances the exact gap will vary - but is still likely to be in the range of 20-25%. Also see my post above, as to why tachs will always be my choice over beams. They do 44% more dps per shot but fire 38% slower. They also out-range megabeams by quite a way, allowing higher dps crystals to be used further out. Difference between crystal tiers ~20% of MODIFIED optimal. With my skills tachs have an optimal of 65km, and megabeams of 55km. So the only time the difference will be a single crystal tier will be when 20% of the modified optimal is LESS than the difference between UNMODIFIED optimals (65-55) = 10km. I.e. only for Multi (tachyons) versus Gamma (Megabeams). In most other cases the difference in optimal will fall between tach/megabeam crystal sets, and the further you go past 40km the more it will favor Tachyons. Even taking your figure of 6 tachs = 7 megabeams I still have the problem of NOT BEING ABLE TO FIT more than 6 tachs or 7 megas anyway. And which would you rather have? Something with the same dps and low alpha, or something with much higher alpha that can significantly out-range the other setup for good measure?
Terianna Eri Scrutari The Cyrene Initiative	Posted - 2008.04.08 17:18:00 - [31] I use... [Apocalypse 2, Missioning (Beam)] Amarr Navy Heat Sink Amarr Navy Heat Sink Heat Sink II Large Armor Repairer II Armor EM Hardener II Armor EM Hardener II Armor Thermic Hardener II Optical Tracking Computer I, Optimal Range Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Mega Modulated Energy Beam I, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L Mega Modulated Energy Beam I, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L Mega Modulated Energy Beam I, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L Mega Modulated Energy Beam I, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L Mega Modulated Energy Beam I, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L Mega Modulated Energy Beam I, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L Mega Modulated Energy Beam I, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L Mega Modulated Energy Beam I, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L Ancillary Current Router I Capacitor Control Circuit I Capacitor Control Circuit I Hammerhead II x5 Hobgoblin II x5 Good range, good damage, good tracking, reasonable tank. __________________________________
Gotrek Gurnisson Midnight Enterprises	Posted - 2008.04.08 17:50:00 - [32] Edited by: Gotrek Gurnisson on 08/04/2008 17:50:53 Edited by: Gotrek Gurnisson on 08/04/2008 17:50:40 Thanks for that setup. Question to everyone - what skills do I need to get enough PG to fit 8 Megabeams or 8 Tachyons on an Apoc? Presumably Engineering V and Advanced Weapon Upgrades V? My Apocs total PG atm is 25000 - which automatically rules out 8 of either turret as I also need to fit a repper somewhere! ------------------------- As the trolls were pointing out 'flaws' in my maths I decided to plot out my dps against range out in Excel to show everyone: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/0804/Crystal_DPS_Chart.JPG WITH MY CURRENT SKILLS - Above 45km Tachyons start to do significantly more dps than Megabeams. ------------------------- Here is the chart of Tachyon DPS as a percentage of Megabeam against range: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/0804/Tachyon_as_Percentage.JPG I will concede to the maths troll that below 45km the difference is minimal using the best crystal for the range. ------------------------- NOTE: Im ignoring falloff damage as the maths would start to get messy - but as that will affect megabeams more as they have a smaller falloff then it will also probably favor Tachyons.
Borasao Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.08 17:52:00 - [33] The skill to use RCU2s
Rialtor Yarrrateers	Posted - 2008.04.08 21:01:00 - [34] Edited by: Rialtor on 08/04/2008 21:03:24 Edited by: Rialtor on 08/04/2008 21:01:32 Originally by: Gotrek Gurnisson Edited by: Gotrek Gurnisson on 08/04/2008 17:50:53 Edited by: Gotrek Gurnisson on 08/04/2008 17:50:40 Thanks for that setup. Question to everyone - what skills do I need to get enough PG to fit 8 Megabeams or 8 Tachyons on an Apoc? Presumably Engineering V and Advanced Weapon Upgrades V? My Apocs total PG atm is 25000 - which automatically rules out 8 of either turret as I also need to fit a repper somewhere! ------------------------- As the trolls were pointing out 'flaws' in my maths I decided to plot out my dps against range out in Excel to show everyone: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/0804/Crystal_DPS_Chart.JPG WITH MY CURRENT SKILLS - Above 45km Tachyons start to do significantly more dps than Megabeams. ------------------------- Here is the chart of Tachyon DPS as a percentage of Megabeam against range: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/0804/Tachyon_as_Percentage.JPG I will concede to the maths troll that below 45km the difference is minimal using the best crystal for the range. ------------------------- NOTE: Im ignoring falloff damage as the maths would start to get messy - but as that will affect megabeams more as they have a smaller falloff then it will also probably favor Tachyons. You can't really use Tachyons ona mission runnign ship. The fitting is too large, you'd gimp your whole setup. Use Mega Pulses on the apoc with some locus rigs, and a tracking computer. You get good range on them. Trust me, it's the way to go on the apoc currently. Run the setup I gave you in eft and check your ranges, and your dps. If you want to use beams, you need at least AWU IV to use them correctly. but don't use beams on an apoc, if you want to use beams buy yourself an abaddon. Also in the majority of missions the mobs will be at 45k or under. Occasionally you have a BS at 60k or so. ---- sig ---- Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world... Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has.
Shannon DeBruce Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.04.09 00:14:00 - [35] Considering fitting an Apoc for Lvl 4 missions with less than perfect skills, IMHO the mids are an afterburner and three cap rechargers; the lows have a large armor repairer, three rat-specific armor hardeners (two for primary, one for secondary), two heat sinks, and you have to decide based on your situation between a Reactor Control Unit or a third heat sink. Rigs are three capacitor control circuit I's. Drones are light or medium scout, depending on your drone skills. These are for killing the small, fast stuff that you didn't clean out on their way in. For your lasers, consider the pulse and the beam modulated energy units. They both offer the same rate of fire and damage multiplier. The beam requires more powergrid, offers twice the range but at half the angular target rate. It consumes a bit less cap per activation, and requires a bit less CPU to fit. Fit Standard L crystals (or Armarr Navy if you can afford them) - you need the 45% reduction in cap use. Try both, but my experience was that range was my friend By the way, I love the Tachyons when your skills are up - but I love them in an Abaddon.
Nomakai Delateriel Viziam	Posted - 2008.04.09 01:48:00 - [36] Originally by: Gotrek Gurnisson Difference between crystal tiers ~20% of MODIFIED optimal. With my skills tachs have an optimal of 65km, and megabeams of 55km. How on earth do you end up with those figures while using beams with the same Meta value? I've tried it out with all sorts of combinations and whenever Tachyons reach out to 65km the equal meta value beams reach out to roughly 59km. So somewhere you have to be using some sort of failmath. As for "why would you want a fitting with the same DPS and lower alpha"? Maybe because it has better tracking and better caprequirements (much better cap requirements in fact)? ______________________________________________ -You can never earn my respect, only lose it. It's given freely, and only grudgingly retracted when necessary.
Gotrek Gurnisson	Posted - 2008.04.09 07:16:00 - [37] Originally by: Shannon DeBruce Considering fitting an Apoc for Lvl 4 missions with less than perfect skills, IMHO the mids are an afterburner and three cap rechargers; the lows have a large armor repairer, three rat-specific armor hardeners (two for primary, one for secondary), two heat sinks, and you have to decide based on your situation between a Reactor Control Unit or a third heat sink. Rigs are three capacitor control circuit I's. After a bit of equipment switching I did end up with more or less the mids and lows you suggested - with the minior difference of dropping one heat sink for a DCU II (still finding my feet on missions and want to guarantee I dont get out of my depth too quickly). I have tried using 7 Megabeams + Missiles, as opposed to 6 Tachyons + 2 x Missiles - and with my skills and 2 heat sinks the Tachyons will hands down every time past 45km. It may be the wrong way of fitting an Apoc (remember me previous ship was a Geddon so I got used to fitting for gank first) - but it eats BS sized targets much faster than the megabeams can on almost all of my missions (due to fighting most BS at 50-60km where tachs do significantly more dps). I have yet to fit any rigs - so will have a good play in EFT to try different things, and see if there is any way to squeeze that 8th megabeam onto the ship. If I can do that I will switch to megas. But as things currently stand my skills dont quite support fitting the Apoc the way it was intended - with 8 turrets! Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Gotrek Gurnisson	Posted - 2008.04.09 07:33:00 - [38] Edited by: Gotrek Gurnisson on 09/04/2008 07:34:53 Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel How on earth do you end up with those figures while using beams with the same Meta value? I've tried it out with all sorts of combinations and whenever Tachyons reach out to 65km the equal meta value beams reach out to roughly 59km. So somewhere you have to be using some sort of failmath. Chances are I misread the number as at 1800 x 1440 its really small text . However, even allowing for the difference between beams and Tachs being only 7km - my original point still stands. For distances where 7km is 12.5%% or less of the optimal the dps will be roughly the same as you can stick with one tier difference and still get similar dps. (I used 12.5% as thats the difference in range modifier for all crystals below standard). 7km / 0.125 = 56km. I.e. for all distances above 56km the difference in crystal sets will be two tiers - which is reflected in the graphs I linked earlier. Its only at distances of less than 56km you can stick to the same - or one tiers difference. And of late all my missions have been at 50km-80km range (e.g. Worlds Collide room 1 which I cleared last night). Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel As for "why would you want a fitting with the same DPS and lower alpha"? Maybe because it has better tracking and better cap requirements (much better cap requirements in fact)? I havent yet found a mission where I ran out of cap using 6 Tachs. At worst I get down to 40% cap. With my current skills the NPC dps is either a) much lower than my repair rate so I dont need to perma-run the repper, or b) much more than a single repper can cope with - which usually means warp-outs anyway before I run out of cap. I havent yet found any missions where the dps was roughly equivalent to my repair rate - and its only these sorts of missions requiring perma-running that would cause me grief cap-wise. I will happily admit In a noob at flying Amarr Battleships, and my SP are still low-med to where they should be - but considering Ive quite happily cleared Recon 1 of 3 (tanking 7 BS + support) in my geddon - and (fingers crossed) havent come close to losing any of my ships then I must be doing something right BTW - simply saying "You Fail" doesnt exactly help anyone asking for advice on the forums. At least try include some sort of constructive advice rather than pointing out whats wrong. Try explaining why its wrong - and what they should do about it (as the other replies have done). Thanks for all the advice guys/gals. I have already changed my current/planned ship fit to include some of your suggestions. Next thing to work out using EFT is how many CCC rigs I need to buy Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

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