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Finideach
Pan Galactic Gargle Blasters Delta.Green
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Posted - 2008.04.08 03:58:00 -
[1]
Pulled from the excellent discussion going on in another thread. I've been noddling the basics of putting together a player run insurance system (see other thread for some of the rough details) and there's some great ideas going on.
I want to prototype/test this method in the next month or so on a very limited nature mainly so that I can A) see how it works in a real environment with small exposure and B) fund any covered losses out of pocket.
But as I work towards setting this up what information would the board be looking for in terms of transparency to make the prototype valid for the lessons learned beyond myself and participants? So far I've thought of:
Transparency of Policy & Terms - Listed on this board so everyone can see them and ensure they are applied as documented
Visibility of Transactions - Post on this forum the key details of the business plan, test plan, test results and operational details of prototype (i.e.claim is made, payout terms, as well as assumption/cancellation of policies)
3rd Party Fund Holders - Who holds the amount reserved to cover losses? EBank or Fury or others?
3rd Party Auditors - Who keeps track of the books? Same as above?
Who participates? Criteria of what players/pilots to participate in the test?
Who funds? Where I get the funds (if any are provided beyond my own pocket)?
Alts involved? (If I make an alt to do this?)
Backup operator (in case I'm unable to continue the affair due to R/L issues who steps in to at least liquidate and repay everyone?)
What else would the board want to see included in the prototype?
BTW I'm going with the working name of EFlak! (like the duck)
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Hexxx
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2008.04.08 22:12:00 -
[2]
Go ahead with the prototype and see if you can get something functional from a technical aspect. You can always look for funding if you can at least gather data on a sample of pilots.
Look for trends, come up with a way to award "safe" pilots and penalize suicide gankers.
EBANK would probably be interested once you have something functional and can come to us with a bit of data.
Director | www.eve-bank.net
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Finideach
Pan Galactic Gargle Blasters Delta.Green
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Posted - 2008.04.08 22:34:00 -
[3]
That was my plan. Go through one or more prototypes to see how it works. I'm approaching this more from a "solve the problem" approach rather than "try and get a ton of funding." If successful I think the concepts could be used by a variety of business models - if the fail is epic that's why I want to keep it small so I can pay out of pocket. I'm selling out my inventory of trades to get up to around 500m where I can begin the first small prototype.
Two questions to EBank:
1. Can you hold the reserve of funds I am willing to put forward to guarantee coverage payouts? (So the prototype customers know that there is money to pay if they have a loss).
2. Does EBank offer "estate planning". I've been reading a lot on the forums and it seems one persistent problem is "what happens when a player disappears". Can EBank recieve instructions to act upon should I not post on the forums in say, ~30 days, i.e. disburse the funds to the right people, make sure they get paid back etc.
I'm not thinking of disappearing, but that seems to be a worry point for many folks and wasn't sure whether EBank can execute a kind of estate management service like that.
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Hexxx
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2008.04.09 00:19:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Finideach That was my plan. Go through one or more prototypes to see how it works. I'm approaching this more from a "solve the problem" approach rather than "try and get a ton of funding." If successful I think the concepts could be used by a variety of business models - if the fail is epic that's why I want to keep it small so I can pay out of pocket. I'm selling out my inventory of trades to get up to around 500m where I can begin the first small prototype.
Two questions to EBank:
1. Can you hold the reserve of funds I am willing to put forward to guarantee coverage payouts? (So the prototype customers know that there is money to pay if they have a loss).
2. Does EBank offer "estate planning". I've been reading a lot on the forums and it seems one persistent problem is "what happens when a player disappears". Can EBank recieve instructions to act upon should I not post on the forums in say, ~30 days, i.e. disburse the funds to the right people, make sure they get paid back etc.
I'm not thinking of disappearing, but that seems to be a worry point for many folks and wasn't sure whether EBank can execute a kind of estate management service like that.
You're referring to an exit strategy, and I suppose EBANK could do something like that.
A simple solution is that we create a shared account and then your access is restricted after you send in the money.
Director | www.eve-bank.net
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Kylar Renpurs
Dusk Blade
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Posted - 2008.04.09 01:25:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Kylar Renpurs on 09/04/2008 01:31:10 Edited by: Kylar Renpurs on 09/04/2008 01:26:31 *ding* I got it!
Raw thought here, but hear it out. What's a scammer/someone beating the system want? More isk than what they started with. What will they never do (unless it's a vendetta)? Try to get less isk than they started with.
What's a legitimate person want? Well, what they don't want is to lose it all. If they lost 1 bil, they'd be happy if for (example) 100 mil a month that they got 500 mil of it back.
So the solution to people ripping it off? Only offer *partial* investment policies. To be honest, I really do think that's the solution here.
People who are legitimate get what they want, people who want to rip us off only hurt their own wallets. Sure, someone could just try and damage the company, that's when policy kicks them out for losing too many ships too quickly. Plus there'd still be progressive membership, i.e. the older you are as a customer, the better deals you have available. (perhaps even replacement insurance if you're loyal/safe enough)
EDIT: This is when the killmail API becomes crucial to prove kills/losses happen.
Improve Market Competition! |
Finideach
Pan Galactic Gargle Blasters Delta.Green
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Posted - 2008.04.09 03:45:00 -
[6]
We're thinking on the same lines - and that's how I've framed the policy terms and conditions. The insurance program I'm proposing to prototype aims to make "partially whole" from a "larger loss" - rather than just payout isk. However my corp has asked me to run this by them first so I'm going to leave it at this for now. =)
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Bryg Philomena
Green Lantern Corps
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Posted - 2008.04.09 23:37:00 -
[7]
I had the same idea. Are you proposing an added insurance policy for ships? Or do you cover the modules/items? Or are they seperate policies?
Either way, I am interested in working on this with you. I had a few ideas, but it will be an interesting plan.
Send me a mail in game.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler Am I reading this correctly? You claim you have a bug that undresses female avatars???
Your signature |
SocialTRader
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Posted - 2008.04.10 01:08:00 -
[8]
what would stop somebody from cashing in twice? from the eve insurance and yours? then they would be making a profit...
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Kylar Renpurs
Dusk Blade
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Posted - 2008.04.10 01:35:00 -
[9]
Originally by: SocialTRader what would stop somebody from cashing in twice? from the eve insurance and yours? then they would be making a profit...
for one, you'd never try to beat the in game insurance. and two, they'd only make money if the insurer wasn't.
Improve Market Competition! |
SocialTRader
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Posted - 2008.04.10 02:33:00 -
[10]
hmm don't think I explained enough to get my question across right lets look at the thorax since I happen to have one in my hanger right now. To buy a thorax is about 6mil. Now if a player were to fully insure this thorax with the eve system it would cost 2,220,000isk and payout 7,400,000isk so not accounting for modules or anything the player would only lose 820,000isk(6mil+2.22mil-7.4mil). Now this player goes and insures his ship with eflak he would only need to make 820k isk off this policy to draw even and most likely the policy will be for a good bit more then this.
I suppose that this tatic wouldn't work for t2 ships but eh it is still a loophole that needs to be dealt with.
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Finideach
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Posted - 2008.04.10 03:21:00 -
[11]
Good question Social Trader. "How do you keep someone from cashing in twice?"
One policy term that will probably be in any variety of EFlac! insurance is a variation of the following:
** Policies are automatically suspended upon sending of a kill mail claim and will remain suspended until notified by EFlac! that policy is reinstated.
In other words if you destroy ship 1 - and after the vetting of the claim receive a payout or replacement, but haven't received a notification of reinstatement of policy and destroy ship 2 - you have no rights to claim coverage on that second ship.
This allows the insurer to do a little investigating both before and after the claim payout. If they decide that the risk simply isn't worth it (either fourth time this month they've made a claim payout or something smells very fishy but they can't quite prove it) they can notify the player that they're not going to continue coverage.
That being said I do think that any insurer, to maintain credibility, should pay out the coverage unless there is obvious provable fraud or violation of policies that first time. This policy term would prevent someone from 'stacking' up multiple claims in a short period of time with the insurer at least consenting to the risk.
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Finideach
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Posted - 2008.04.10 03:25:00 -
[12]
Ah Social Trader. Read your question again on the longer post and see that you are asking "How do you profit off of insuring ships already insured by Eve?"
I agree with the previous poster. I don't think you should be insuring ships insured by Eve CCP nor do I think you should try.
The type of insurance I am looking for at EFlac! are the types of things Eve *doesn't* insure:
Fittings Cargo Implants POS Loss Business Loss because of Patch Day Delays or Patch Errors WarDec coverage etc.
Obviously as you go down the list it gets more complicated and extravagant and way out of my league for now. =)
There's a ton of activity out there that *could* be insured without touching what Eve CCP currently insures, which is just a partial payment on the ship destroyed.
BTW I have just finished the first online survey to collect some demographic data from folks that would help give some insight into the mechanics of insurance. I'm still working the bugs out but when I get it done I'll post it up in this forum and then post the results as well.
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Kylar Renpurs
Dusk Blade
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Posted - 2008.04.10 03:30:00 -
[13]
I think it's a non-issue.T1 ships wouldn't be insured by any *sane* player imo.
Making a profit from insurance is fine if the player-insurance policy is being adhered to. Insurance companies aim to make a profit, and by and large if that's the case the player prolly isnt.
Improve Market Competition! |
Astorothe
Aperture Science Industries
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Posted - 2008.04.10 03:34:00 -
[14]
It would be premium insurance only - the stuff Eve doesn't handle at the moment like T2 Ships, Faction Ships, Expensive Modules, etc etc. This is definately a possibility and would be very interesting.
Deus Ex Machina ~ Eve Corporation, Web Design, Gaming News, Music & Gadgets Blog |
Kylar Renpurs
Dusk Blade
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Posted - 2008.04.10 03:49:00 -
[15]
I'll certainly be writing a spot of trial code soon,,, not tonite. Cooking salmon steaks
Improve Market Competition! |
Countess Xiao
Xiao Interstellar Trade
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Posted - 2008.04.10 03:56:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Finideach .. Implants ..
Do they show up in killmails now? |
Kylar Renpurs
Dusk Blade
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Posted - 2008.04.10 04:34:00 -
[17]
No, they don't. But they aren't insured by ingame means anyway. That's a too hard basket for now imo.
Improve Market Competition! |
Astorothe
Aperture Science Industries
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Posted - 2008.04.10 04:42:00 -
[18]
It might be good to look at each category of insurance separately (modules, t2 ships, faction ships, etc) - and roll out the insurance premiums separately.
That is, you might buy an insurance package that covers those expensive officer mods on your Navy "Mission *****" Raven - but not the ship itself. Or you might want to just insure your Faction frigate for PvP but not worry about the fittings. If you want both, then you're talking about two different premiums. This could be complicated, but it might mitigate risk for the insurer.
"Packages" could be created and premiums costed up for the whole kit and kaboodle later. Some categories may be just too risky and un-insurable, while others much more feasible.
I guess this all relies explicitly on the Killmail and API.
Deus Ex Machina ~ Eve Corporation, Web Design, Gaming News, Music & Gadgets Blog |
Finideach
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Posted - 2008.04.10 04:46:00 -
[19]
Separate programs definitely makes sense. As does the use of risk ratings to qualify different pilots that are applied to either captives or premiums.
What about API's? What can be confirmed via a basic or an advanced API?
Implants are extremely tricky because of Jump Clones so might not be a good bet.
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Kylar Renpurs
Dusk Blade
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Posted - 2008.04.10 05:09:00 -
[20]
A full API key is needed to access killmails. Data returned is (afaik) identical to a typical API. Parsing it into something human-readable is fairly simple.
Improve Market Competition! |
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Finideach
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Posted - 2008.04.10 05:24:00 -
[21]
Eve Mon uses API to identify implants doesn't it? Could the same be done for other purposes? Or does Eve Mon only grab attributes and requires you to put in implants? (Can't quite tell looking at it).
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Bryg Philomena
Green Lantern Corps
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Posted - 2008.04.14 06:38:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Finideach Eve Mon uses API to identify implants doesn't it? Could the same be done for other purposes? Or does Eve Mon only grab attributes and requires you to put in implants? (Can't quite tell looking at it).
Evemon will show what implants are in, but if you jc it will look like you lost them.
Personally, I think insurance on factions ships, and t2 ships could be a big business.
Modules and rigs will be a little trickier. Albeit possible. Thats a lot of cost to analyze. A lot of market data to export and go through. And with the market trends, could end up rather complicated.
Insurance of rigs could lead to people insuring them, only to lose them on purpose to get their money back.
Perhaps 50% coverage for a month for the same premium, then upping to 100%.
How often will a policy need to be renewed?
Can one character insure property on another (alts)?
Will it carry a policy void if killed during war clause?
Originally by: CCP Wrangler Am I reading this correctly? You claim you have a bug that undresses female avatars???
Your signature |
Bryg Philomena
Green Lantern Corps
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Posted - 2008.04.14 06:46:00 -
[23]
Also, how will payments be made? Character donations? if so, and you begin to experiance a large number of policies taken out, how do you intend to organize them? Possibly an API export every hour?
Will we recieve a confirmation evemail?
We can be reasonably sure this isnt a scam as you are likely to make far more money by providing the service, but will you designate someone like ebank to hold funds to cover a % of the policies?
What happens if you are incapable of managing this, or you are suddenly unable to play?
What happens if you are incapable of paying up?
Originally by: CCP Wrangler Am I reading this correctly? You claim you have a bug that undresses female avatars???
Your signature |
Kylar Renpurs
Dusk Blade
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Posted - 2008.04.14 09:41:00 -
[24]
Quote: Modules and rigs will be a little trickier. Albeit possible. Thats a lot of cost to analyze. A lot of market data to export and go through. And with the market trends, could end up rather complicated.
I think the idea here would be to offer "miscellaneous equipment" insurance policies up to a particular amount, using a killmail to show the loss of equivalent goods. Remembering it affects your account to make claims left, right and centre, if you got a free ride it wouldn't last very long. Specific policies *could* exist for specific very expensive equip (Estamels Invul Field anyone?)
Quote: Insurance of rigs could lead to people insuring them, only to lose them on purpose to get their money back.
As above, claiming affects the safety of insuring things for your character. Do it too much and you start paying more/can no longer be insured. Whatever system is in place would need to make sure any losses caused by someone are minimized before their ejection.
Quote: Perhaps 50% coverage for a month for the same premium, then upping to 100%.
As above, through means like that.
Quote: How often will a policy need to be renewed?
Monthly packs could insure for a short time, but are obviously more expensive because someone thinks they'll be in serious risk very soon. Longer-term policies would reduce in rate, with a year-package probably costing almost as much as a new ship. Remembering insuring a T1 ship with EVE's system for a year actually costs *more* than a ship, it'd be silly to think similar wouldn't be equally justified.
Quote: Can one character insure property on another (alts)?
Wouldn't really make sense. An automated system to alert an admin of new killmails (since any hope of such a system working would need software utilising the killmail API, which requires a full API key)
Quote: Will it carry a policy void if killed during war clause?
I don't see why it should. Under such circumstances you'd probably be getting 1 month policies (more expensive), but if you lost too many once again, you'd be rejected for further insurance.
Quote: Also, how will payments be made? Character donations? if so, and you begin to experiance a large number of policies taken out, how do you intend to organize them? Possibly an API export every hour?
Would be a fairly simple matter to write software to do the hourly export and organise the data into something sensical.
Quote: Will we recieve a confirmation evemail?
Confirmation of what? Might sound like a silly question, but you mean confirmation that you'd paid for a policy? Idealistically, it'd be a system where you'd go to some ingame website and say "I want to make this policy claim for this loss-mail", then someone would follow up on the claim.
Quote: We can be reasonably sure this isnt a scam as you are likely to make far more money by providing the service, but will you designate someone like ebank to hold funds to cover a % of the policies?
Probably the best thing to do tbh.
Quote: What happens if you are incapable of managing this, or you are suddenly unable to play?
Hopefully more than one person would show interest in something like this, making it a lot more feasible.
Quote: What happens if you are incapable of paying up?
Something would probably be defined in operational guidelines that X% would always be available (30-50%) to make payments. In cases of a large amount of claims (or claims by everyone at once) I would imagine it'd be understandable that there's delays of a day or so.
Not in any way trying to shoot those points down or give them a pass, but this is still all very brainchild. Hopefully I'll have time to sit down and write some test software, which, if you wanted more "technical" details, I'd be happy to put down here about that brainchild.
Improve Market Competition! |
Matthew Munro
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2008.04.14 10:06:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Bryg Philomena Can one character insure property on another (alts)?
I think this is a very simple thing to do really, just takes a little bit of programming in relevant access control methods.
Originally by: Bryg Philomena Modules and rigs will be a little trickier. Albeit possible. Thats a lot of cost to analyze. A lot of market data to export and go through. And with the market trends, could end up rather complicated.
To be honest, I think their is a really simple method to deal with this and that's to treat it like content insurance, you insure x ISK value of assets. Value is based on average market price at the time of destruction.
Originally by: Bryg Philomena Also, how will payments be made? Character donations? if so, and you begin to experiance a large number of policies taken out, how do you intend to organize them? Possibly an API export every hour?
That would be exactly how to handle them, via the API, anything else is shear madness. EBank has shown that it is the prefect system that can handle large volumes of transfers.
Originally by: Bryg Philomena Will we recieve a confirmation evemail?
Sadly not possible since CCP don't give a programmable method to send evemails, no reason it couldn't be sent to a email address. I can think of 1 way to possible make it work but it still involves having a character log on and do a series of link clicks, would get very time consuming.
Originally by: Bryg Philomena What happens if you are incapable of managing this, or you are suddenly unable to play?
That would have to be covered via a second person in the loop, else it would be a single point of failure, never good.
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Finideach
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Posted - 2008.04.14 14:19:00 -
[26]
Quote: Insurance of rigs could lead to people insuring them, only to lose them on purpose to get their money back.
Which is why right now I'm leaning to "replacement" policies rather than "repayment" policies - if you lose fittings - you get your fittings back minus the deductible. There are still scams in that method, but the key one - getting a ton of ISK - is taken away. After all is said and done you have exactly what you started with before your ship was destroyed so your net gain is less. Combine that with using the Jita averages to determine the market value of the replacements, and the coverage cap determining how much is replaced - and if the insurer can get the replacements on discounts from the average, it creates a slightly better scenario.
For example:
Player A has 10m of coverage for their fittings & rigs. They lose their ship and the kill mail mechanism alerts EFlac!. The Jita average value of all their fittings is 8m, take away a 1m deductible and you have 7m of fittings û which may actually be able to be replaced for 6-7m ISK by the insurer. Player gets *most* (but not all) of his fittings back, EFlac! doesnÆt fork out 10m isk to a potentially scammer.
Quote: How often will a policy need to be renewed?
Depends on the TÆs & CÆs of the policy.
Quote: Can one character insure property on another (alts)?
Again depends on the TÆs & CÆs but my first swipe would say no simply to avoid complexities early on. That way the payments all come from one character, the claims are all made by the same character, and the coverage replacements all go to that same character.
Quote: Will it carry a policy void if killed during war clause?
In current incarnation yes, that was the thought. IÆve got a policy writeup that IÆve been working up that has what the exclusions are (i.e. you wonÆt get paid if youÆre Concorded).
Quote: We can be reasonably sure this isnt a scam as you are likely to make far more money by providing the service, but will you designate someone like ebank to hold funds to cover a % of the policies?
EBank and Fury are absolutely critical mechanisms for this in two ways. The first they confirm to customers that some % of funds are being held on behalf of the insurer to cover potential losses. Second, they give the insurance company a method of generating interest on the captives & premiums that have been paid.
Quote: What happens if you are incapable of managing this, or you are suddenly unable to play?
IÆve asked EBank if they can set up a contingency plan and it seems to think they can. Details would have to be worked out û but say none of the roster of Agents is available for X time û and EBank has instructions to distribute the captives out to all customers (a base refund).
Quote: What happens if you are incapable of paying up?
There goes the business and the rep of the character in a poof of smoke. ThatÆs why I think there should be A) More than one company because competition is good and B) no one should start out trying to insure the entire population of Eve. Building these up from the ground slowly will help expose a lot of faults and limit risk to both sides.
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Kiki Arnolds
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.04.14 19:57:00 -
[27]
What causes of losses will you be covering with this? About the only causes that would seem to make sense from the economic perspective of the insured/insurer are highsec losses of highend mission ships or frieghters to non-wardecs. Individual insurance is only really useful for protecting against unlikely, but catostrophic loss.
Insurance pools the resources of many such that when one suffers the loss, the others eliminate the blow. But for insurane to be effective, the premiums must be higher than the average loss devided by the frequency of loss. It makes sense because I may have an auto-accident every 10 years, but if it happens tomorow I need to be able to pay, and if by chance there are two accidents in quick sucsession, which can happen even if the average is every 10 years, I want protection.
If I expect to loose a ship every two weeks, which is probably a reasonable rate of loss outside highsec, there is little reason to pay for insurance... (As the price would be so high).
Do you plan to offer ship/module products that makes sense for anyone other than CNR(or equiv) mission runners and Freightor pilots?
It may make a bit more sense for implants, If your flying with a full snake set, your not gonna die very often, and even when they do kill a ship, often your pod will escape, MUCH lower frequency of loss, and a very high loss when it happens... I'd be alot more willing to invest the billions for a snake set if they were insured, but how high would the premiums be? Of course, insurance would be pointless for implants if it didn't cover pvp losses... ç¦ |
Finideach
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Posted - 2008.04.14 20:46:00 -
[28]
Quote: What causes of losses will you be covering with this?
Mind you things are in the development stage. Any insurance program should have a very clear policy of what is/isn't covered and *how* it's covered. But right now what I'm leaning too for the first offering are the following exclusions:
Losses due to Concord Losses while a character is wardecced Claims made by anyone other than the insured character (i.e. alts, corp mates, alliance mates etc.) Proven connection with suicide gankers (perpetrators) Proven connection with corp thieves Those where there is provable evidence to defraud the insurer Provable isk farmers
That means losses to missioning, pvp, piracy, suicide ganking (victim), ratting etc. would be covered per the policy terms.
About the only causes that would seem to make sense from the economic perspective of the insured/insurer are highsec losses of highend mission ships or frieghters to non-wardecs.
Quote: Individual insurance is only really useful for protecting against unlikely, but catostrophic loss.
Although this is the theory there are many types of insurances that cover non catastrophic losses (health, car etc.) for everyday, if infrequent losses. Where I don't think insurance should get into is the bogus "coverage" of "extended warranties/service plans" that places like Best Buy etc. sell. Catastrophic depends on where you're sitting - for a new pilot 10m might be catastrophic, for the journeyman 100m, for the veteran 1b.
I'm not sure the average of large numbers really works in favor of the insurers in Eve given that there are an infinite number of identities and an infinite ability to hide from the insurer. This is balanced by more frequent losses. Smaller, well qualified groups, may be the key.
Quote: But for insurane to be effective, the premiums must be higher than the average loss devided by the frequency of loss.
Only if you're doing a straight up repayment of ISK method nor gaining any benefit from the premiums as an investment vehicle. The formula I'm using is that:
Investment interest on premium + captive PLUS monthly premiums EXCEEDS replacement cost of items to be replaced (which may be less than the Jita average value)
This means you can manage your margin by effectively sourcing parts with large manufacturers to get a discount from the Jita average. Since you're insuring replacement, rather than repayment, you can keep the difference.
Quote: If I expect to loose a ship every two weeks, which is probably a reasonable rate of loss outside highsec, there is little reason to pay for insurance... (As the price would be so high).
That's why I went about to grab some data - initial results could be found here.
Initial results seem to indicate an average monthly loss of .6/month. Mind you that's a very low sample - and there are many factors that may contribute to that rate which need to be ferreted out.
Quote: Do you plan to offer ship/module products that makes sense for anyone other than CNR(or equiv) mission runners and Freightor pilots?
Since I'm planning on self-funding the prototypes of EFlac! I was actually going to stay away from CNR/Freighter level and focus on the lower market segments. Maybe someone with far deeper pockets can take the method/approach and try to insure the higher end folks - but without a significant IPO or Bond offering (which I'm against for startups) it's too much money.
Quote: It may make a bit more sense for implants.
Only if a good method is found to be able to *prove* that implants were actually lost. As it stands that seems to be a weak area given jump clones. |
Finideach
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Posted - 2008.04.14 20:48:00 -
[29]
To add to the exclusions of coverage I think I should add there were certain customer groups I was targeting up front:
Must have been in current corporation for at least X months Must have X number of SP Must be at least Y months old Must have a security rating of Z
To even qualify for insurance. Again this is brainstorming and not hard and fast at this point. Data will point at what the best approach is. |
Finideach
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Posted - 2008.04.14 23:21:00 -
[30]
My only concern with WarDec's is that we're entering from a territory of insuring against unanticipated loss into an area where losses not only are anticipated - but an end result of the intended activity. Given that - the data may end up showing that status of WarDec is a poor correlation to property losses and other factors (age of player, type of activitiy etc.) may be a higher correlation.
Keep in mind that these are only very rough preliminary thoughts and outlines for a simple insurance program. There may well be (and I hope are) other players, companies, programs and offerings in the insurance arena.
Indeed I see a natural fit between large mecenary companies and wardec insurance! =)
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Kiki Arnolds
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.04.15 15:44:00 -
[31]
I'm curious about the wardec thing, it sounds like you would cover 0.0 losses, but not cover losses from a formal wardec? It doesn't make that much sense to me... I don't have stastics to back it up, but I'd imagine the vast majority of losses occurs outside highsec, where a wardec isn't really needed. From the standpoint of the insurer, whats the difference between dying in highsec as the result of a wardec, and dying in 0.0 fighting at a gate camp? (formal wardecs don't seem very common in 0.0)
As an asside, I think you may want to add a question to your survey about how you died: Highsec Suicide (victim) Highsec Agro Manipulation (Lofty/Canflip/etc victim) Highsec Can/Wreck Stealing Wardec Lowsec Gate/Station Camp Lowsec other Nullsec Gate/Station Camp Nullsec while Roaming Nullsec while Mining/Ratting
I suspect you would find a strong correlation between frequency of loss and causes of loss ç¦ |
Finideach
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Posted - 2008.04.15 18:20:00 -
[32]
Quote: Highsec Suicide (victim) Highsec Agro Manipulation (Lofty/Canflip/etc victim) Highsec Can/Wreck Stealing Wardec Lowsec Gate/Station Camp Lowsec other Nullsec Gate/Station Camp Nullsec while Roaming Nullsec while Mining/Ratting
Great feedback. My thought is once I run the initial demographic is to see where the data leads and follow up. What I'm hoping is that some of the demographic information correlates with the loss rate. For example is a veteran player, long vested in their corporation, with good skillpoints - do they suffer less losses (for any of the above reasons) than a newb rookie moving quickly between corps?
Why not cover wardec when you're covering 0.0 already?
I see it as a change of the "odds" you'll get killed. Although traversing through 0.0 may be dangerous - is a wardec MORE dangerous because now not only can you be killed in all sec's, but folks are actively out there trying to kill you?
Don't know.
Trying to get the data to findout. =) I can see some insurance programs where they'd have an exclusion for deaths in 0.0 - but my bet is that they would so limit themselves in favor of the insurer.
If Eve opened up their data streams to data mine - i.e. give me the last 10,000 ship killmails generated and just strip out victim and perpetrator we could mine that and do analysis. Hrm, maybe that's not a bad thing to ask for...but chances are they won't do it.
Also if anyone else wants to setup surveys or data I'd be happy to walk you through it via polldaddy (very simple) and share results.
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Pang Grohl
Gallente Sudo Corp
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Posted - 2008.04.15 18:22:00 -
[33]
A couple of years ago I ended up at the same point. Insurance provides direct replacement of lost items, not a cash payment. The thing to solve with this method is point of delivery for the lost items. The customer will want the point of delivery to be as local to them as possible, while the insurer will want a centralized delivery point. Because of this your trial will probably need to be limited to a small number of regions with common borders and short travel times. *** Si non adjuvas, noces (If you're not helping, you're hurting)
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Finideach
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Posted - 2008.04.15 18:41:00 -
[34]
In the current policy it's anywhere in High Sec that can be reached without traveling through low-sec or 0.0. Any requests to drop off items in areas that don't fit that criteria would be dropped off in Jita. That may still be too large an area and not serve the -5 or worse crowd that can't get into high sec (assuming you even offer them insurance).
When things get advanced I imagine the distribution/delivery of parts would be outsourced to manufacturers who make the parts. In return for moving a few hundred million of business the way of the manufacturer the insurance company could indicate that the parts should be delivered to X at Y. Some manufacturers may have geographical coverage in some areas, others in other.
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Hexxx
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.04.15 19:26:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Finideach In the current policy it's anywhere in High Sec that can be reached without traveling through low-sec or 0.0. Any requests to drop off items in areas that don't fit that criteria would be dropped off in Jita. That may still be too large an area and not serve the -5 or worse crowd that can't get into high sec (assuming you even offer them insurance).
When things get advanced I imagine the distribution/delivery of parts would be outsourced to manufacturers who make the parts. In return for moving a few hundred million of business the way of the manufacturer the insurance company could indicate that the parts should be delivered to X at Y. Some manufacturers may have geographical coverage in some areas, others in other.
You are in the insurance business, not the logistics business.
I recommend two or three distribution centers at the most, people can use courier contracts or pick it up themselves.
Director | www.eve-bank.net
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Finideach
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Posted - 2008.04.15 20:07:00 -
[36]
Do you know of MFG's Hexx who would be wanting to take on the business? I'd much rather outsource manufacturing & delivery to someone who focuses on that as their business model and just request a dropship to the customer or pickup locatoin.
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Slade Trillgon
Siorai Iontach Brotherhood of the Spider
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Posted - 2008.04.16 14:29:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Slade Trillgon on 16/04/2008 14:31:31
Originally by: Hexxx When things get advanced I imagine the distribution/delivery of parts would be outsourced to manufacturers who make the parts. In return for moving a few hundred million of business the way of the manufacturer the insurance company could indicate that the parts should be delivered to X at Y. Some manufacturers may have geographical coverage in some areas, others in other.
You are in the insurance business, not the logistics business.
I recommend two or three distribution centers at the most, people can use courier contracts or pick it up themselves.
Originally by: Finideach Do you know of MFG's Hexx who would be wanting to take on the business? I'd much rather outsource manufacturing & delivery to someone who focuses on that as their business model and just request a dropship to the customer or pickup locatoin.
That was the next thing I was going to bring up. Considering the vastness of the module market have the ability to produce everything is more then a lofty task.
If you want to be able to try and provide the lost ship and modules then try to find 1-3 manufactures per racial regional that is centered in the regional trading hubs. Try to have most races ships and most popular modules covered and have them provide the modules for replacement at the regional trading hub. If a module or ship comes up that is not available at the time then Jita could be the default pick up.
You are in the insurance buisness and unless the contracts include delivery then it should be up to the pilot to arrange delivery or pick-up. IRL you have to choose a repair shop, have it towed, pay the deductable, and pick up the fixed product. at best you have an Insurance company that may cover with the towing cost, but we have no towing of destroyed ships in EVE.
Also another thing that popped into my head is to sell coverage at varying levels. Look at the most popular fittings for PvP and PvE and then create an average for the high end ships then work things down from there.
Say..
T1 ship w/ Full T1 fittings = said payout T1 ship w/ Partial T2 fittings = said payout T2 ship w/ Full T2 fittings = said payout T2 ship w/ Full T1 fittings = said payout T2 ship w/ Partial T2 fittings = said payout T2 ships w/ Full T2 fittings = said payout ...and so on
Possible have supplemental insurance for individuals that have trained up additional T2 fittings or have the ability to upgrade the coverage.
I do not even know if these options are really viable and make sense but they are some ideas that popped into my head. It is a crazy place, my mind that is .
Slade
P.S. To everyone I would keep in mind that insurance is not available to completely replace said insured items, but to ease the pain of loss/damage of said items. So stick with the KISS principle at the begining then expand. |
MailDeadDrop
Archon Industries
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Posted - 2008.04.16 23:13:00 -
[38]
You need to get an Eve actuary involved. :-)
Insurance fraud is always a risk. A few techniques the real world has used to combat it are:
- Claims profiling & investigation
- "Policy in effect" time delays
- Named insured hazards & exclusions
You might want to read up on the topic from real world companies. http://www.iso.com/
About replacing the lost item(s), I can imagine a few possible problems. First, named modules aren't manufactured per se, so you'd have to buy them off the market from mission/complex runners. This seems a less certain cost than arrangements with manufacturers.
Second, some modules will be destroyed, while others drop as loot. The former are obvious casualty losses, but what of the latter? Seems like an open door for possible "soft" fraud (exaggeration of legitimate claim).
I had an idea for the handling of the deductible if you stick with the "reimburse in kind" model: Pre-bill it. Make the insurance payment consist of the premium and the deductible combined. At the end of the insurance term, if no claim has been filed, then allow the insured to either renew at the cost of premium, or cancel and receive the deductible. At the time of renewal you may need to re-calculate the deductible because of price fluctuations.
MDD |
Finideach
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Posted - 2008.04.17 00:43:00 -
[39]
Thanks for the advice MailDeadDrop. Policy in effect is a fantastic suggestion. The key to scam mitigation in Eve seems to make it more trouble than it's worth for the dedicated griefer, and less payout than it's worth for the greedy thief.
Thanks for the link as well.
I really am naive about the manufacturing side of Eve - I just kind of assume there are a dozen or so big name MFGs out there who you can, between working with a few of them, get most of what you need. That's an area that bears a lot of further research.
As for the paid in deductible I had toyed with the concept of a "captive", an amount surrendered by a player up front as collateral against their future good behavior. This amount is kept over time and earns interest for the insurer, at any point that policies are canceled in good faith the captive is refunded. In the event of scamming and/or defraudment the captive is seized by the insurer.
See my post about the need to profile customers - I heartily agree with this. Any insurer who starts out to insure everyone is begging for heartache.
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MailDeadDrop
Archon Industries
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Posted - 2008.04.17 18:11:00 -
[40]
I've been pondering the issue of dataset (for risk analysis). While you can (and should) ask CCP for a dump of the last 10K kill mails (scrubbed of identities), I, too, doubt that they will provide it. But it cannot hurt to ask.
But, could you perhaps get a dump of the kill mails from the mercenary corps (R.E.P.O., et al.), pirate corps, and from the large at-war alliances (AAA, et al.)? Individually they won't be perfect samples, but combined they might paint a somewhat balanced picture.
MDD |
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jongalt
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Posted - 2008.04.17 18:59:00 -
[41]
you might also ask battleclinic or one of the other killboard services, since they "seem" to cater a large variety of different players.
some isk might need to be involved, though.
-jg. |
MailDeadDrop
Archon Industries
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Posted - 2008.04.17 21:59:00 -
[42]
Originally by: jongalt you might also ask battleclinic or one of the other killboard services, since they "seem" to cater a large variety of different players.
That's a great idea. I've asked BattleClinic/Griefwatch: http://www.battleclinic.com/forum/index.php/topic,19936.new.html
MDD |
Finideach
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Posted - 2008.04.18 02:38:00 -
[43]
Let me know if they get you the data - I ran the analysis on the 102 respondents I got from the survey and posted the data up in this other thread. Killboard data would help answer some of the questions of "where does ship loss occur by location or security status of system", "what's the pareto of parts most commonly fitted to ships that were destroyed" etc. etc.
I can run either Minitab or SPC XL on the data and do some serious number crunching in short order.
Does KB data have any information about the pilot (like current security status etc.) other than name? |
jongalt
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Posted - 2008.04.18 03:07:00 -
[44]
im glad i could contribute positively.
btw, chris at battleclinic dot com replied to your forum request and asks that you email him...(in case you didnt see it).
so hopefully you will get the data you need.
-jg. |
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