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Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.04.08 15:00:00 - [1] Edited by: Tarminic on 08/04/2008 15:00:33 Originally by: Ethen Bejorn CCP is the biggest offender of real money to isk sales due to game time codes. WHOOSH =====(Devblog)> (Ethen Bejorn) ---------------- Tarminic - 34 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.8 (Updated 4/7)
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.04.08 15:13:00 - [2] Originally by: Ethen Bejorn CCP can claim it is not the same thing all they want, but as they as they let people buy isk for real money so they can profit and monoplize the market, I feel no sympathy for them in their fight against isk sellers. ---------------- Tarminic - 34 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.8 (Updated 4/7)
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.04.08 15:25:00 - [3] Originally by: Ethen Bejorn Oh, so CCP says this and it makes it okay? I don't a flying F if you can't pay your sub with money, get a job you lazy pieces of %*#^. Paying RL money for ISK is paying RL money for ISK and no matter what CCP says that will not change. Idiots. Okay, I'll humor you. Buying ISK with GTCs -Does not inject extra ISK into the economy -Subsidizes gameplay of those who can't pay subscription fees -Is legal and convenient Buying ISK from ISK Sellers -Contributes to inflation since farming injects ISK into the economy 8X as faster than normal -Connected to credit card fraud and account hacking -Pays the salaries of companies profiting illegally and supports sweatshop labor Anything else? ---------------- Tarminic - 34 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.8 (Updated 4/7)
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.04.08 15:31:00 - [4] Originally by: Ethen Bejorn Who cares? I don't. Nor do thousands of other people like me. You fan bois can defend CCP's terrible decisions all you wish, as you do all the time on these forums, this exact same group of people above, but you are the minority. I pay for my accounts with CASH. I support this game with my subscriptions. You cheap bastards who pay with ISK can rot for all I care. So to summarize your arguments: -You are all idiots -You are cheap and should get jobs -It doesn't matter who I purchase ISK with -Believing any differently makes you a fanboi Am I correct? ---------------- Tarminic - 34 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.8 (Updated 4/7)
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.04.08 15:39:00 - [5] Originally by: Ethen Bejorn The whole thing is a mess and a terribly unfair in so many ways, but CCP makes money off it so they allow it to continue instead of doing the right thing and getting rid of it in full. And then the ISK Selling thrives, leading to massive inflation, account theft, and credit card fraud. If you believe otherwise, please provide a logical basis. CCP is keeping the ISK generation in the economy in-check while letting players subsidize other's playtime in order to obtain ISK. What would you do? ---------------- Tarminic - 34 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.8 (Updated 4/7)
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.04.08 15:46:00 - [6] So what's your idea Ethen? ---------------- Tarminic - 34 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.8 (Updated 4/7)
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.04.08 15:55:00 - [7] Originally by: Ethen Bejorn Originally by: Tarminic So what's your idea Ethen? Remove the ability to pay for Eve with ISK and remove GTC sales for real life money. And how would that not cause the problems I outlined here? ---------------- Tarminic - 34 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.8 (Updated 4/7)
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.04.08 15:59:00 - [8] Originally by: Ethen Bejorn The same every other MMOG out there handles it? Maybe CCP should ask Blizzard for tips on how to run an MMOG? So how do they handle it, Ethen? Please, enlighten us. ---------------- Tarminic - 34 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.8 (Updated 4/7)
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.04.08 16:05:00 - [9] So this really has nothing to do with the overall health of the game to you, does it? It's about your righteous anger and the how unfair it is to you that people can sell GTCs. I'm not going to address your "just reduce isk faucets omg" argument unless you ask me to because honestly, it wouldn't work and I'm not interested in explaining why unless you are. ---------------- Tarminic - 34 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.8 (Updated 4/7)
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.04.08 16:16:00 - [10] Originally by: Ethen Bejorn Originally by: Akita T Yup, my bet's on the whole "I hate ISK buyers and ISK sellers, can not accept any system that allows them to exist unpunished in any shape or form, and damn the consequences" thingy too. Basically, yes, but I don't feel the consequences are nearly as bad as you (CCP) are trying to make them. So, again, do you have any logic to back this up aside from the fact that if things WERE as bad as we were saying it would make your idea unrealistic and detrimental? ---------------- Tarminic - 34 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.8 (Updated 4/7)

Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.04.08 16:38:00 - [11] Edited by: Tarminic on 08/04/2008 16:41:32 Originally by: Ethen Bejorn Edited by: Ethen Bejorn on 08/04/2008 16:20:32 Do you? I have my 18+ years of MMOG gaming experience to know what the truth is. FORMAL LOGIC: Given this: 1. Farmers make up 5-10% of EVE's population 2. Farmers generate ISK at 8-10 times the rate of a normal player If 1 and 2 are true: 3. Farmers generate 30-50% of EVE's inflation Given this: 4. Farmer activity is dependent on the demand for purchasable ISK 5. The GTC trade fulfills 50-75% of the demand for purchasable ISK You can deduce this: 6. If GTC trade is discontinued, the demand for purchasable ISK fulfilled by farmers will increase 100-300% If 4 & 6 is true: 7. Farmer activity will increase by 100-300% If 7 and 1 is true: 8. Farmers will make up 10-30% of EVE's population If 8 and 2 are true: 9. Farmers will generate 45-60% of EVE's inflation Any questions? Of course, I'm not showing how the actual rate of inflation would change, but I'd be happy to that since those numbers support my argument as well. ---------------- Tarminic - 34 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.8 (Updated 4/7)
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.04.08 17:02:00 - [12] Originally by: Akita T Nah, it's pretty much common sense and basic math. Would he be "taking lessons" from an economist, he'd find ways to spin it to sound a lot more sinister as it actually is. Yeah, I'm no economist. What I do know is that farmers cause a hell of a lot of inflation, most likely the majority of it. Removing GMT trade would make this problem two to three times worse than it is now. Eventually this would lead to players being practically FORCED to buy ISK because farmers are the only ones who make enough money to fund their gameplay. If CCP increases the ISK faucets to compensate, the cycle starts all over again and in a year you're paying 5 million ISK for a Rifter. ---------------- Tarminic - 34 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.8 (Updated 4/7)
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.04.08 17:16:00 - [13] Quote: but when it comes down to it, when you buy ISK for real life money, you are cheating both in the spirit of the game, and yourself out of the experience which is making your way on your own through your own hard work and steadfast commitment to your goals. I agree. Originally by: Ethen Bejorn Wow, you have lost touch with reality. You have to buy isk because Chinese farmers exist? Go rat, run missions, gate camp as a pirate, whatever, but using real life money to buy ISK is cheating. You seriously make me sick. Well, here we go again! If inflation goes through the roof, traditional ISK faucets will have less and less of an effect. It will take you 2X hours to grind ISK to get a ship instead of X hours. Eventually it will take 4X hours. This means that normal players have to either spend four times as much effort earning ISK to perform other activities. What's their only alternative? Buy ISK from farmers. Or just find a different game to play, which is equally likely. CCP could, of course, quadruple all mission payouts, NPC buy orders, etc. But then the cycle would just repeat itself since the rate of inflation doesn't change. In all reality the inflation would accelerate as more players relied on purchased ISK. So are you going to logically address any of my comments or just continue to use ad hominem attacks? ---------------- Tarminic - 34 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.8 (Updated 4/7)
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.04.08 17:56:00 - [14] Edited by: Tarminic on 08/04/2008 17:56:26 Originally by: Cutie Chaser Edited by: Cutie Chaser on 08/04/2008 17:51:11 Originally by: Tarminic Not true actually - I go over this in some of my previous posts. An average player spends 2 hours a day making ISK through things like ratting and missions, which are ISK Faucets - they inject ISK directly into the economy from nothing. Farmers, on the other hand, utilize ISK faucets 23 hours a day, injecting ISK into the economy at ten times the rate of a normal player - this is referred to as an ISK Fountain if I remember correctly. This is bad because it means that each farmer has ten times the inflationary influence of a normal player. So then, where is the line? What about a player who farms ISK all day for a new ship? Or an unemployeed player who runs missions all day? Or a casual(?) farmer for that matter? It is a non-sense semantical argument. Both are undergoing the same process. There's no line on a per-player basis, but what's important is the overall rate at which ISK is injected into the economy. One player who spends 16 hours a day running missions isn't a problem - it's unlikely that he could sustain that rate for very long, and even if he did his ISK earning rates are averaged out among 220 thousand other accounts. When 5-10% of EVE's population is doing the same thing it has a huge impact on inflation (specific numbers are in my previous posts). This inflation is bad for a variety of reasons that you probably already know. ---------------- Tarminic - 34 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.8 (Updated 4/7)
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.04.08 18:28:00 - [15] Originally by: Tzar'rim the whole "but farming goes much faster!!!111oneeleven" doesn't fly, it still has to be mined/made, apart from that a lot of actual players farm like there's no tomorrow. No difference. You don't understand the concept of injecting ISK into the economy - we're not talking about building components, we're talking about ISK being created from nothing, which is an ISK faucet. Mission payouts and bounties are one example of this. Quote: - both GTC's as RMT inject isk into the game, again no difference. Both put in effort, both sell their ore/whatever for isk. Isk is being made out of nothing since it's not a finite comodity (not really). All that's needed is labour which in both cases is cheap and in the case of the "real" players actually free, so that means it's even MORE out of whack. See above. Mining is not an ISK faucet, neither is GTC retail. Minierals from nothing != ISK from nothing. ---------------- Tarminic - 34 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.8 (Updated 4/7)
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.04.08 18:47:00 - [16] Originally by: Tzar'rim There's no difference between "chinese" farmers farming isk and a "real" player making isk. Farmers have the inflationary impact 8-10 times that of an ordinary player. I'd say that's a pretty big difference. ---------------- Tarminic - 34 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.8 (Updated 4/7)
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.04.08 19:00:00 - [17] Originally by: Tzar'rim Why, because they're somehow superhuman, or have all kinds of exploits? They put in more time per account, that is all. Overall there's more "normal" players farming/making cash than "chinese" farmers, so that still doesn't fly. They are constantly injecting ISK into the economy 23/7. If you want more details, here is some data for you: If an average player spends 2 hours a day making 30 million ISK per hour: With 5% farmer population: Total ISK injected by farmers: 7590 Billion Total ISK injected by players: 12540 Billion Inflationary caused by farmers: 37% Total inflation vs. 0% farmers: 157% With 15% farmer population: Total ISK injected by farmers: 22770 Billion Total ISK injected by players: 11220 Billion Inflationary caused by farmers: 67% Total inflation vs. 0% farmers: 258% Would you like me to go on? I can double the number of player-hours if you like to see how that affects it. This is also assuming that players do no participate in any ISK-sinks aside from ammo costs, which is not true and would further skew the numbers in favor of my argument. ---------------- Tarminic - 34 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.8 (Updated 4/7)
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.04.08 19:02:00 - [18] Originally by: Tzar'rim That's funny, I see real players with 5 accounts mine 20 hours a day, or run missions afk 23/7 or whatever. For the farmers to better that by 10 times is very impressive, can you explain how they do it? If there wouldn't be RMT's, there would be more demand for GTC sales and it would all balance out again. MINING IS NOT AN ISK FAUCET. It's not physically possible for a REAL PLAYER to run missions 23/7, 7 days a week. The average player does not run missions for more than several hours a day. The average player also engages in ISK sinks that remove ISK from the economy, while farmers do not. ---------------- Tarminic - 34 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.8 (Updated 4/7)
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.04.08 19:11:00 - [19] Originally by: Tzar'rim nice nitpicking, nice numbers. Yet it doesn't make CCP's system any better. The numbers are simple match, I'll provide the spreadsheet if you'd like. Noting that mining is not an ISK faucet isn't nitpicking, it's refuting the entire argument that people who mine with 5 accounts contribute to inflation. Noting that the average player does not run missions more than several hours a day also refutes your point. CCP's system does not lead to runaway inflation because the ISK spent is obtained by normal players, not farmers. This goes back to the ISK faucet vs. ISK fountain, which you have yet to refute. ---------------- Tarminic - 34 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.8 (Updated 4/7)
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.04.08 19:12:00 - [20] Originally by: Tzar'rim No, because if RMT's were completely removed there would STILL be a demand for isk, so GTC pricing would change and more people would sell their isk. Because one way of buying isk is removed or lessened doesn't mean that on the whole the isk/RL cash transactions change in any way. Yes it does, see here. ---------------- Tarminic - 34 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.8 (Updated 4/7)

Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.04.08 19:19:00 - [21] Originally by: Tzar'rim Therefore, since the demand doesn't change it does not matter how that demand is met by the sellers. I'm not saying that RMT is good, I'm saying that GTC's are no better. So you're going to ignore everything I've said and that data I've provided regarding the inflationary impact of farmers...ISK faucets vs. ISK fountains, etc? ---------------- Tarminic - 34 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.8 (Updated 4/7)
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.04.08 19:29:00 - [22] Originally by: Tzar'rim No, I'm saying that both real players as farmers mine, run missions and do any other forms of making isk, wether it's a faucet or not. There is a huge difference between "Making ISK" and an "ISK Faucet." Selling something you've mined is not an ISK faucet, making money through trading is not an ISK faucet. Mission Running is an ISK faucet, and ratting is an ISK faucet. Real players generate ISK through ISK faucets, on average, at a certain rate. Farmers do the same at a rate 8 to 10 times as quickly. I really don't understand what you're not getting here. ---------------- Tarminic - 34 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.8 (Updated 4/7)
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.04.08 19:36:00 - [23] Originally by: Tzar'rim it doesn't matter, the real problem is the DEMAND, not the supply. As long as the demand is there there will be people trying to fill that demand, trough any means available. I don't disagree here. Quote: If you remove the farmers then "real" players will just start to farm more because all of a sudden it becomes more profitable to do so, simply because the deman doesn't change. How so? Players can't buy GTCs with ISK and legally sell them for real money. ---------------- Tarminic - 34 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.8 (Updated 4/7)
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.04.08 19:45:00 - [24] Originally by: Ethen Bejorn I guess you just don't get it. It is the same thing to US. No one cares about your semantics and made up statistics. CCP are just profiteering off one method and punishing their customers for using anything other than their own. It is plain and simple selfish hypocritical behavior. Whatever. If you're going to accuse me of using bad math you're going to have to back yourself up. Or maybe try refuting anything that I've said, provide an alternative, pretty much anything other than ad hominem attacks. You have failed to do so and have simply ignored my arguments. Quote: Oh and btw, after I made all my posts in this thread a GM took 2B ISK from me which a friend gave me four months ago. I know this friend was NOT an isk farmer/seller, as he was a real english speaking player who I was friends with for over a year and he gave me almost all his isk and items when he quit. I guess CCP doesn't like it when you disagree with them publically. I would be willing to bet that 2B isk that many of the posters in this thread who are supporting CCP and their GTC sales are in fact CCP employees. Tarminic and Akita T are 100% CCP alts. ---------------- Tarminic - 34 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.8 (Updated 4/7)
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.04.08 19:55:00 - [25] Originally by: Tzar'rim Originally by: Akita T Again... IF they would want, CCP could just as well sell ISK directly to anybody at prices that undercut any ISK RMTers. But they DON'T. Ask yourself WHY. Because they don't have to, they sell a vast amount of GTC's and at the same time they are trying to shut down the whole RMT thing. While they do it for good reasons ofcourse that doesn't mean that it's their SOLE reason, the benefit from RMT's being removed. Even if CCP would benefit from selling ISK directly they wouldn't because, as Akita T said, it would be injecting ISK directly into the economy much faster than normal players could, causing rampant inflation. That's why farming is bad. No one here is suggesting that CCP is fighting RMT purely out of the goodness of their hearts, but their motivations are more than pure self-interest. ---------------- Tarminic - 34 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.8 (Updated 4/7)
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.04.08 20:01:00 - [26] Originally by: Tzar'rim Originally by: Tarminic No one here is suggesting that CCP is fighting RMT purely out of the goodness of their hearts, but their motivations are more than pure self-interest. Wrong, CCP is a business and therefore their actions are by definition driven by self-interest. Keeping EVE's economy healthy would be in CCP's best interests, because otherwise most players would leave EVE. Selling ISK directly might benefit them in the short term but if EVE's economy fails, EVE will fail. ---------------- Tarminic - 34 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.8 (Updated 4/7)
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.04.08 20:10:00 - [27] Originally by: Tzar'rim Exactly, that's why they don't inject vast amounts of isk into the economy, as Akita said. You have to understand that the whole GTC sales wroks for them both ways; Due to the whole GTC thing people keep playing this game longer, and with more accounts. That is why CCP wants GTC sales. My primary point was that RMT is bad for EVE economically and that the GTC trade is infinitely better in that respect. I didn't mean to suggest that CCP is doing so purely for our benefit (though fighting RMTs benefits us as well) or that that I like the idea of people buying ISK for real money. ---------------- Tarminic - 34 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.8 (Updated 4/7)
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.04.08 20:17:00 - [28] Originally by: Tzar'rim I'm sorry, it is not better. It's only better for CCP. GTC's are not at all different from RMT's. There's no difference for the ingame economy, they are the SAME thing. Outside the game CCP benefits more from GTC's than from RMT's. So all that inflation stuff that you have yet to refute except by claiming that a normal player runs missions 23/7? ---------------- Tarminic - 34 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.8 (Updated 4/7)
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.04.08 20:23:00 - [29] Originally by: Tzar'rim WHO sells the isk or WHERE they are from, or by WHICH means does not change anything; people farm to make isk, to sell it for cash. In the case of GTC's they sell it for cash indirectly. No difference. So how is a normal player going to run missions 23/7? And through what means is he going to sell his ISK? ---------------- Tarminic - 34 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.8 (Updated 4/7)
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.04.08 20:27:00 - [30] Originally by: Tzar'rim Economically it doesn't matter if one person farms for 20 hours or 2 for 10. Actually, when you think about it, if you replace 23/7 farmers with actual "player farmers" you increase your amount of subscriptions. Do you see a pattern here? And you believe that the average player spends 10 hours a day earning ISK? ---------------- Tarminic - 34 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.8 (Updated 4/7)

Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.04.08 20:40:00 - [31] Originally by: Tzar'rim Originally by: Tarminic Originally by: Tzar'rim Economically it doesn't matter if one person farms for 20 hours or 2 for 10. Actually, when you think about it, if you replace 23/7 farmers with actual "player farmers" you increase your amount of subscriptions. Do you see a pattern here? And you believe that the average player spends 10 hours a day earning ISK? Looking at the stupid amount of miners/ratters and mission runners I see whenever I am/get online I'd say that there's a percentage that does it, yes. Apart from that, it doesn't matter. if the isk/player goes down there will simply be more players to fulfill the demand, which means (yet again) more subscriptions. Do you really think that a normal player is going to sell ISK for cash? How? ---------------- Tarminic - 34 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.8 (Updated 4/7)
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.04.08 20:52:00 - [32] Originally by: Tzar'rim Why do you have a problem with that idea? There's tons of people out there who mine ore, buy a BPO, then research it to stupidly high ME's, then produce the items and sell them below mineral cost. IE, everyone puts in time and effort into the game. If people get 5 accounts because it's economically viable they will do so, if only to use those alts/accounts for other seasons apart from making cash. You're just argueing for the sake of argueing :P Not that I have a problem wit hthat ofcourse, since I'm doing the same. Based on a popular RMT site for eve, $200 million ISK is about 12 dollars. Assuming that the most ISK one can make per hour with a single account is 40 million ISK, that's less than 2 dollars an hour. Even assuming you could run 3 accounts, all at maximum efficiency, you're still making less than minimum wage. You would then have to set up some means of executing this transaction, like paypal. This costs money. Then you would have to set up a website and host it, which would also cost money. Then you have to convince people that you aren't going to rip them off. All for less than $8 an hour? ---------------- Tarminic - 34 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.8 (Updated 4/7)
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.04.08 20:59:00 - [33] Originally by: Tzar'rim Edited by: Tzar''rim on 08/04/2008 20:55:42 @Tarmie uhm, you got it all wrong. People make isk to pay for the account via GTC so they can make MORE isk, or use it for other means. At no point did I state that "real" players sell their isk for real cash, they do it indirectly via GTC, the surplus Isk is for themselves. Oooooh! I confised cash for ISK with ISK for cash, sorry about that. Now...where were we again? I've completely lost my train of thought. Ah, I remember now! Me: Rabble! You: Rabble rabble! Me: Rabble rabble rabble! You: Rabble rabble rabble...rabble Me: Rabble? RABBLE OMG RABBLE! I think we should just agree to disagree before my organs start exploding. ---------------- Tarminic - 34 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.8 (Updated 4/7)
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.04.09 13:00:00 - [34] Originally by: ElCholo Originally by: Tarminic Originally by: Ethen Bejorn Oh, so CCP says this and it makes it okay? I don't a flying F if you can't pay your sub with money, get a job you lazy pieces of %#^. Paying RL money for ISK is paying RL money for ISK and no matter what CCP says that will not change. Idiots. Okay, I'll humor you. Buying ISK with GTCs -Does not inject extra ISK into the economy -Subsidizes gameplay of those who can't pay subscription fees -Is legal and convenient Buying ISK from ISK Sellers -Contributes to inflation since farming injects ISK into the economy 8X as faster than normal -Connected to credit card fraud and account hacking -Pays the salaries of companies profiting illegally and supports sweatshop labor Anything else? Lol .. quoting CCP talking points ftl .. ETC/GTC whatever you wanna call it, its still isk for RL cash, only CCP holds the legal monopoly over it. Feel free to actually refute* my points. Whenever you feel like it really. ---------------- Tarminic - 34 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.81 (Updated 4/8)
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.04.10 17:17:00 - [35] Originally by: Durzel Because no one farms missions to get ISK to buy GTCs do they? People talk about farming like it's some totally foreign activity but in reality what difference is there between a bunch of accounts who do nothing but rat in 0.0 and farm missions, and real players who do nothing but rat in 0.0 and farm missions? There's a massive difference from a player "farming" missions and professional farmers. A truly dedicated EVE player might spend 8 hours a day running missions and nothing else for a couple of days or - at the very most - weeks. Farmers spend 23 hours a day running missions and nothing else for months or years. ---------------- Tarminic - 34 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.81 (Updated 4/8)
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.04.10 18:10:00 - [36] Originally by: Cassandra Beckinsale The assumption that CCP have to take the less bad thing from the two (GTC & Farmers) is incredible stupid and so much r e t a r d e d. Funny how you keep saying this but you're incapable of coming up with a viable alternative that wouldn't destroy the economy. ---------------- Tarminic - 34 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.81 (Updated 4/8)
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.04.10 18:45:00 - [37] Originally by: Cassandra Beckinsale CCP pay you for protect them so hard? Or perphas you are simply one of the many CCP accounts? Quote: Anyway, my solution is this: fight against any form of farming and real money trading. How? In any viable manners: 1. Account online 23/7, always mining? GM contact them, if they do not answer (cause they are a bot) they get traked until GM can catch all other farmers account they work with. 2. Permanent ban, and immediately ban, of any account that farm or buy ISK. 3. Credit card check in the banned account and permanently banning of the PERSON that have farmed ISK, the eprson, not the account. 4. Payment of eve can be done only by credit card. And I've already told you exactly why most of these wouldn't work. All of your solution are based on the idea that CCP can remove ISK farming entirely. If they could they would have. And since they can't, your proposition would destroy the economy. Quote: These one are some things i tought at now. I do not know CCP method and how much control they have on the server and on the accounts, but I LARGELY doubt they cannot control such thing. So if almost every other MMO is plagued by these issues, including WoW, why aren't they stopping it either?
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.04.10 22:24:00 - [38] Originally by: GarbleGarble I didn't mention farming or inflation, you are the one that doesn't know what you're talking about forum ***. ISK is being created, it is availuable for real money, that isn't a game, it shouldn't be apart of any game, end of discussion. And can you explain to me how this ISK is created? ---------------- Tarminic - 34 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.81 (Updated 4/8)**
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.04.10 22:31:00 - [39] Originally by: GarbleGarble Originally by: Tarminic Originally by: GarbleGarble I didn't mention farming or inflation, you are the one that doesn't know what you're talking about forum ***. ISK is being created, it is availuable for real money, that isn't a game, it shouldn't be apart of any game, end of discussion. And can you explain to me how this ISK is created? ISK is 'created' by player farmers who don't pay a subscription and bought by anyone who wants ISK for $$. They farm the extra ISK for PROFIT (not paying a subscription) how is that different from an IGE farmer? And how many hours a month does the average EVE player spend doing it? ---------------- Tarminic - 34 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.81 (Updated 4/8)**
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.04.10 22:37:00 - [40] Originally by: GarbleGarble I don't know anywhere from 1 hour of trading or many hours of grinding on roids or mission running. It limits the negative effects of ISK selling but it makes the negative effects that this process causes legal. Frustration for every player that doesn't want to spend real money for ISK is facillitated by CCP themselves. EDIT: For profit because ISK cost is higher than subscription cost. So how much profit can a player earn per month? ---------------- Tarminic - 34 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.81 (Updated 4/8)

Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.04.11 14:50:00 - [41] I think what a lot of people are missing is that we're not defending the morality of the GTC trade at all - I'm against it personally despite having purchased a GTC or two. But economically there isn't a viable alternative right now. ---------------- Tarminic - 34 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.81 (Updated 4/8)
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.04.13 17:47:00 - [42] Originally by: Karlemgne Originally by: Tarminic Originally by: Ethen Bejorn Oh, so CCP says this and it makes it okay? I don't a flying F if you can't pay your sub with money, get a job you lazy pieces of %#^. Paying RL money for ISK is paying RL money for ISK and no matter what CCP says that will not change. Idiots. Okay, I'll humor you. Buying ISK with GTCs -Does not inject extra ISK into the economy -Subsidizes gameplay of those who can't pay subscription fees -Is legal and convenient Buying ISK from ISK Sellers -Contributes to inflation since farming injects ISK into the economy 8X as faster than normal -Connected to credit card fraud and account hacking -Pays the salaries of companies profiting illegally and supports sweatshop labor Anything else? Wait, wait. So you are telling me that isk farmers are introducing new currency to the game while GTC sellers are not? How exactly does this work? Do the isk farmers work for CCP and as such have /set_isk to 100000000000000 command on their QA client? Or maybe you're just completely and totally wrong. The isk farmers "create" new isk when they run missions and kill rats. However, running missions and killing rats is what creates the isk, not "selling" it. Furthermore, isk traders who MINE aren't actually creating new isk at all. This is really no different than how the people who buy GTC with isk get their isk. -K You didn't read any of my subsequent posts on the issue where I clarrified ISK. The average player makes ISK at a certain rate, say at most 30 million ISK an hour for 2 hours each day. ISK farmers make that 30 million ISK an hour for 23 hours a day, seven days a week, fifty two weeks a year. A single ISK farmer has the inflationary impact of ten or more players. In addition, they don't participate in very many ISK sinks compared to normal players. I've posted some numbers earlier in this thread, but I can't be arsed to direct you to the specific post. Basically, if we assume that ISK farmers make up 10% of the population they are responsible for over 70% of EVE's inflation, meaning they have tripled* it. I'm assuming you know why runaway inflation is bad so I'm not going to explain it. Please read a bit deeper for just accusing me of being completely incorrect. ---------------- Tarminic - 34 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.81 (Updated 4/8)
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.04.14 13:12:00 - [43] Originally by: Ruah Piskonit "Does not inject extra isk into the economy" yes it does, you buy the GTC for real money, then sell it to someone for ISK. Its the same as you buying ISK for real money from a company. The ISK is there in the game, there is no 'isk generation' taking place. When someone buys GTCs for the purpose of selling it for ISK, they are, in essence buying isk. I should emphasize that i said "extra" ISK is injected into the economy. The point is that normal players do engage in ISK faucets approximately one tenth as often as farmers, contributing much, much less to inflation. Quote: "Subsidizes gameplay of those who can't pay subscription fees" I don't have a problem with people buying GTCs and using them to pay for the game. The problem is when people buy GTCs to sell to people for ISK. I don't have a problem with people using their own ISK to buy GTCs - I just think that CCP should be the sole provider and seller or GTCs, not other players. . .thats where the Dollar - GTC - ISK chain is exploited. I would be perfectly happy for that solution, but I doubt that CCP would go for it because it would cut into CCP's revenue. Quote: "Contributes to inflation since farming injects ISK into the economy 8X as faster than normal" As does GTC selling, although I agree that its the lesser of the two evils. I know quite a few people who have funded their capital ships and/or trading/pos's with GTC bough ISK. . .Its common. I think that economically the GTC trade does little to inflation - players may grind ISK for a GTC, but it only takes 5 hours of grinding to pay for 30 days of gametime, whereas farmers do the equivalent of create 3 GTCs a day. Quote: 1) CCP controls the GTC - ISK market fully, that means, players cannot convert GTCs to ISK in any legal fashion. Players may buy GTCs from CCP using isk, and they may do so with dollars, but no player can sell GTCs for ISK to any other player. This stops the player run GTC for ISK exploit that is the ISK machine used. As I said above, that would be the optimal solution but CCP probably isn't going to do it as it cuts into their revenue. Also, it would probably just increase the business of the ISK farmers. Quote: 2) Just sell ISK streight without GTCs. (odd) This would actually be worse than farming - farmers can only make X isk per hour even if it's 23/7. Selling ISK directly would constantly inject it into the economy leading to an even worse inflation problem. Thanks for the reasonable reply.

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