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Tech 2 BPO(s) ---> Tech 2 BPC(s)

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Da'iel Zehn Suune Core Operations	Posted - 2008.04.09 15:30:00 - [1] Edited by: Da''iel Zehn on 09/04/2008 15:52:30 When the new invention system was implemented and the lottery system dismantled, did all the Tech 2 BPO(s) in the game change over to Tech 2 BPC(s)? If not, then I think it should be done. 1) I think this would be a good choice for game balancing for players who do not have the opportunity any longer to obtain a Tech 2 BPO through the lottery system. It would be fair since some players will never have the opportunity. 2) The original Tech 2 BPO(s) should have a good number of runs on them when they are changed over. 3) I believe this would help the over all Tech 2 market. It would increase the value of tech 2 items since everyone would be put into the invention system to produce them. Plus, if tech 2 is more expensive or less available, it would boost the Tech 1 market. Question: How are the named item BPO(s) procured? Was it through the lottery system? How are those obtained now? Same thing for faction items? Please no flaming. Edit: BPC(s) should be a different color than BPO(s). -- DZ's website
Barbens Blue. Blue Federation	Posted - 2008.04.09 15:34:00 - [2] T2 BPO's are still in game and have no changes to them. They're becoming a more rare comodity as day by day, as they're slowly destroyed or removed from game. BaRbEnS
Da'iel Zehn Suune Core Operations	Posted - 2008.04.09 15:48:00 - [3] Originally by: Barbens T2 BPO's are still in game and have no changes to them. They're becoming a more rare comodity as day by day, as they're slowly destroyed or removed from game. BaRbEnS I seriously doubt the majority of Tech 2 BPO owners would put their blueprints in danger of destruction. That would be a clear unnecessary risk. I don't see any other way for them to be removed to be honest, outside of destruction in a ship that is destroyed. I would think Tech 2 BPO(s) are safely kept in high sec stations across the galaxy. I'm sure there are some in other places too, but I am sure they are highly protected when moved. -- DZ's website
Jitabug Caldari Salvage Junkies	Posted - 2008.04.09 16:25:00 - [4] People quit games all the time. When you quit a game, will you care about a virtual blueprint? Or will you keep it just in case you ever return? Yes, T2 BPOs are slowly leaving the game.
Pwett Minmatar QUANT Corp. QUANT Hegemony	Posted - 2008.04.09 16:40:00 - [5] I don't want to be mean, but we really don't need another one of these topics; it's akin to the whole 'salvager's should be flagged' threads in the mission running forums. _______________ Pwett CEO, Founder, & Executor <Q> QUANT Hegemony
Marrrk Vanquish Inc	Posted - 2008.04.09 17:59:00 - [6] Edited by: Marrrk on 09/04/2008 18:03:17 T2 BPO's do not influence the price of the popular T2 mods. The prices are set by the inventors. As far as I am aware there are no BPO's or BPC's for named mods. BPC's can be attained from rats/plexes for certain faction mods and cosmos items.
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2008.04.09 19:48:00 - [7] Originally by: Marrrk Edited by: Marrrk on 09/04/2008 18:03:17 T2 BPO's do not influence the price of the popular T2 mods. The prices are set by the inventors. Not quite true although. T2 BPO owners have a built in profit margin that no T2 BPC inventor can match. T2 inventors have substantial costs in the invention process and cannot make a BPC that is comparable ME-wise to a T2 BPO. So the T2 BPO holders can go to market and undercut their competition with ease while still maintaining a substantial profit margin. However invention tends to set a price floor below which T2 production via invention simply is not profitable. This pretty much guarantees T2 BPO holders a steady and lucrative income. -------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
Da'iel Zehn Suune Core Operations	Posted - 2008.04.09 19:53:00 - [8] Originally by: Jitabug People quit games all the time. When you quit a game, will you care about a virtual blueprint? Or will you keep it just in case you ever return? Yes, T2 BPOs are slowly leaving the game. Aye, that would be true with players going inactive. Good point. -- DZ's website
Da'iel Zehn Suune Core Operations	Posted - 2008.04.09 19:55:00 - [9] Originally by: Pwett I don't want to be mean, but we really don't need another one of these topics; it's akin to the whole 'salvager's should be flagged' threads in the mission running forums. I highly disagree with you. The "Salvager..." is a whine thread. This is a thread about balancing a player-player issue. Everyone should be on the same level playing field when it comes to this issue. -- DZ's website
Da'iel Zehn Suune Core Operations	Posted - 2008.04.09 19:56:00 - [10] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h T2 BPO owners have a built in profit margin that no T2 BPC inventor can match... Excellent point, thank you for the input. -- DZ's website
Dorian 'Gray Gallente Ramdon Industries corporation	Posted - 2008.04.09 20:14:00 - [11] I am unsure if I agree or not that they should be removed at some point in the future, but tbh the thing that is more likely to happen is that the invention results end product will be better than the BPO end products somehow (maybe added extra stat or w/e). Something along these lines anyway, I just cant see CCP removing the T2 BPOs they will just nerf them slowly and any boost to invention will be a stealth nerf to T2 BPO's and I certainly cant see them letting invention stagnate for any period of time. I think anyone who is paying the current prices (which seems to be 2 years worth of prodction atm) is overpaying imo. I think the main reason these things are being bought is due to the prestidious reputation of the T2 BPO's and the massive increase in the EVE population. I don't think it would be a good long term investment strategy as there are to many unknown's in the future regarding T2 BPO's. Saying all that I think it would be a massive error to remove them at this moment in time as invention still isnt at its best yet and there would be massive gaps in the markets on alot of the products but this would be an absolute boon for any half decent traders out there(maybe not a bad thing afterall ). If you haven't got any T2 BPO's or are not planning to buy any then I wouldn't worry about the T2 BPO's, just ask yourself this this question; Do you think invention is going to get better and be able to compete better with T2 BPO's ? In our lifetime those who kill The newsworld hands them stardom And these are the ways On which I was raised......
Da'iel Zehn Suune Core Operations	Posted - 2008.04.09 20:28:00 - [12] Originally by: Dorian 'Gray I am unsure if I agree or not that they should be removed at some point in the future, but tbh the thing that is more likely to happen is that the invention results end product will be better than the BPO end products somehow (maybe added extra stat or w/e). Something along these lines anyway, I just cant see CCP removing the T2 BPOs they will just nerf them slowly and any boost to invention will be a stealth nerf to T2 BPO's and I certainly cant see them letting invention stagnate for any period of time. I think anyone who is paying the current prices (which seems to be 2 years worth of prodction atm) is overpaying imo. I think the main reason these things are being bought is due to the prestidious reputation of the T2 BPO's and the massive increase in the EVE population. I don't think it would be a good long term investment strategy as there are to many unknown's in the future regarding T2 BPO's. Saying all that I think it would be a massive error to remove them at this moment in time as invention still isnt at its best yet and there would be massive gaps in the markets on alot of the products but this would be an absolute boon for any half decent traders out there(maybe not a bad thing afterall ). If you haven't got any T2 BPO's or are not planning to buy any then I wouldn't worry about the T2 BPO's, just ask yourself this this question; Do you think invention is going to get better and be able to compete better with T2 BPO's ? I would agree that time should be given to those who won the lottery to use their T2 BPO(s) as much as they can. After all they did win. The question should be how long should they have to use them that is fair and thoughtful. How long has invention been with us now? A year? An immediate change would be harmful without boosting invention, I agree with that. So they should continue to boost invention until they are even with the benefit of having a BPO instead of a BPC. Then they could phase the BPO(s) out. Maybe that was CCP's original intention. -- DZ's website
Moridrex	Posted - 2008.04.09 21:26:00 - [13] And in grand tradition of this thread and lots of other threads saying the same thing in this forum...why? It's already been proved that in the general markets where there is a demand, the inventors set the price, not the BPO holders. In the few markets where the BPO holder can supply the demand, the inventors generally don't bother anyway because the demand is too low for it to be worthwhile. Saying "Oh we couldn't be there to get a BPO" is like saying "Dammit, there was only 100 Guardian-Vexors, they should convert them all to regular Vexors". So you weren't playing the game when they came out, deal and move on. I wish I owned a BPO just for the novelty of it, or the afore-mentioned Guardian-Vexor. Unless I go get insanely rich I'll never get either of them. So I wish everyone would quit whining about T2 BPO's. They're not hurting you as much as you'd like to think. CCP has stated they have no intention of doing anything to them for now. If it really was all that big of an economic issue, I'm sure with all the damn whine threads about them out now and their economist they'd look at the numbers and see it was making an impact and fix it.
Gridwalker Amarr	Posted - 2008.04.09 21:31:00 - [14] Originally by: Da'iel Zehn I would agree that time should be given to those who won the lottery to use their T2 BPO(s) as much as they can. After all they did win. The question should be how long should they have to use them that is fair and thoughtful. Are you sure about that? I mean, YOU don't have one, so it only makes sense that you should take them away from those people who received them legitimately or bought them as soon as possible. At least you should suggest that T2 BPO's should be immediately removed from those people who bought them on contract, whether it be from lottery winners or from other investors. Those people will deserve what they get, working so hard to be able to afford a T2 BPO! Be honest now! This isn't about boosting invention or making anything fair for anyone. This is about you not having one, and not having the isk to invest in one. I honestly wish you did have one, because then you would see exactly how little real "advantage" a T2 BPO really offers its holders in this post-lottery era. Quote: How long has invention been with us now? A year? An immediate change would be harmful without boosting invention, I agree with that. So they should continue to boost invention until they are even with the benefit of having a BPO instead of a BPC. Then they could phase the BPO(s) out. Maybe that was CCP's original intention. Boosting invention? You mean boosting it beyond the point it is now, where inventors have blindly flooded the market to the point that supply for many items outstrips the demand by months? You mean boosting it so that instead of a multi-billion dollar investment to create one run at a time of a single item, you only need a few hundred million invested to produce pretty much whatever you want and do multiple runs at a time to outproduce BPO holders? Or maybe you mean boosting it by teaching inventors how to do simple math to determine their actual price point, instead of pretending data cores don't have a value and that if you sell an item for 1.9m isk that cost you 2m isk to build, you're NOT actually making 1.9m isk? Oh, I know! I know what you mean! You mean boosting invention by teaching inventors how to look at market details to see if the item is worth inventing due to low profit potential and a flooded market BEFORE actually inventing it? Seriously, what sort of boost do you want? The easier and cheaper it is to invent, the more product that will flood into an already saturated market. How is that going to increase anyone's profit? -Grid
Moridrex	Posted - 2008.04.09 21:36:00 - [15] Originally by: Gridwalker - Lots of intelligent stuff This. Very much. I'm still in awe that everything I mine to build a battleship is worth more than the battleship, due to everyone thinking that because they mined their minierals they are free...so I sell the minerals, buy the battleship from some idiot and still come out ahead. I bought a raven for ~78 mil the other day. I can sell the minerals it takes to build one (ME 20 or so BPO) to buy orders for 85-90 mil and if I sold the minerals on Sell orders probably 100 mil... Geez people quit whining and take some economics classes!
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.04.09 21:58:00 - [16] Originally by: Da'iel Zehn Originally by: Pwett I don't want to be mean, but we really don't need another one of these topics; it's akin to the whole 'salvager's should be flagged' threads in the mission running forums. I highly disagree with you. The "Salvager..." is a whine thread. This is a thread about balancing a player-player issue. Everyone should be on the same level playing field when it comes to this issue. It is a even playing field, the T" BPO are regularly sold and brought on the market forum. You don't have the 60 billions requred for the Hulk BPO currently sold? Though luck.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.04.09 22:05:00 - [17] Originally by: Da'iel Zehn How long has invention been with us now? A year? An immediate change would be harmful without boosting invention, I agree with that. So they should continue to boost invention until they are even with the benefit of having a BPO instead of a BPC. Then they could phase the BPO(s) out. Maybe that was CCP's original intention. Why? if BPC production is make as efficient as BPO production the BPC inventer get already a huge boost as he can switch production without negative effects, while the BPO owner can't. What is this? a case of "I don't have one so they should disappear"? About the effect of T2 BPO on market, look the items witout a T2 BPO that can be build only through invention. The prices for inventors are as bad as the items that can be build from T2 BPO. The inventors tha think that self produced datacores are free, self mined minerals are free and sel produced T2 building materials are free are those that kill the market.
CetusOfAsuran GHOSTS OF THE FIRST AND ONLY	Posted - 2008.04.09 22:19:00 - [18] Came over to this forum in search of amswers and think i found them here. My question was going to be how does one obtain/invent a T2 BPO. Was expecting to be told to hack sites/cosmos missions/ded10 areas or a 1 in 10mil invention chance but from what i am reading is you cant? they were given away in a lottery some time ago (6months old now BTW) and the only way to get the bpo's is to buy them from peeps in the forums, that true? If that is the case, and in response to this thread dont knock them down maybe its time to just release more?
Autumn Sky Spartan Industrial Manufacturing SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.09 22:41:00 - [19] Originally by: Da'iel Zehn When the new invention system was implemented and the lottery system dismantled, did all the Tech 2 BPO(s) in the game change over to Tech 2 BPC(s)? If not, then I think it should be done. 1) I think this would be a good choice for game balancing for players who do not have the opportunity any longer to obtain a Tech 2 BPO through the lottery system. It would be fair since some players will never have the opportunity. There was a recent auction on eBay for Action Comics Issue #1, with the first appearance of Superman. It was in incredible condition for its age. By the end of the auction, the highest bid was $94,000 USD. (However, the reserve price was not met!) If the world were "fair", I could just find a ragged copy of that comic, scan it, recreate it digitally, print it out, bind it, and sell it for a ridiculous profit. But I wasn't around back then to buy an original issue and seal it away for the future. My parents and grandparents didn't keep one preserved for me. Does that mean that whomever was lucky enough to inherit that comic should give it up, or that every surviving comic should have its cover ripped off so as to devalue it? I don't see how nerfing Tech 2 BPOs would solve anything. If the BPO holders were there at the right time, in the right place, and inherited an original Action Comics Issue #1....let them keep it! They are having a tough enough time as it is with all the basement recreation comics floating around, flooding the market, and pushing the value of the originals down. Slackers - We came. We saw. We took our sweet time.
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2008.04.09 23:04:00 - [20] T2 BPO price argument is that way -> plenty of threads about it. All I'll say is 60b is a waste of isk for a T2 hulk BPO these days. On topic now tho, if CCP wants any chance in hell of T3 working, they need a continuous source of T2 BPOs. Improve Market Competition!
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.04.09 23:17:00 - [21] Originally by: CetusOfAsuran Came over to this forum in search of amswers and think i found them here. My question was going to be how does one obtain/invent a T2 BPO. Was expecting to be told to hack sites/cosmos missions/ded10 areas or a 1 in 10mil invention chance but from what i am reading is you cant? they were given away in a lottery some time ago (6months old now BTW) and the only way to get the bpo's is to buy them from peeps in the forums, that true? If that is the case, and in response to this thread dont knock them down maybe its time to just release more? There is a good number of items built only from invented T2 BPC, and the idea by CCP is never to add other T2 BPO. For T3 I am not so sure it will require T2 BPC, it seem as much credible that ii will require T1 BPC, invention and some archaeological items (and the relevant science skills for the extinct races [Yan Jung, sleepers, ecc.]), that was the idea in a old Dev blog.
El'essar Viocragh Minmatar KULT Production Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2008.04.09 23:19:00 - [22] Originally by: Da'iel Zehn Originally by: Imperator Jora'h T2 BPO owners have a built in profit margin that no T2 BPC inventor can match... Excellent point, thank you for the input. T2 Inventors have a built in production volume no T2 BPO owner can match. Profit margins on t2 items are becoming more idiotic by the day, and not because of the oh-so-bad T2 BPOs. Look at the newer T2 items that are invention only - profit wise, these are some of the worst T2 items to invent. I don't care if some fancy BPO owner makes 10mill more per unit of some fancy ship. The enormous production times involved with tech 2 counter that just right - I'll match his profit with a fraction of his production time. Or more generally, I don't care about profit per unit, I don't have a skill that increases production volume by 5 items per hour. I am limited by the 24 production hours a day has and the amounts of slots I have skilled. Most tech 2 I simply buy off the market as I earn more per slothour doing other stuff than invention. With invention, I usually fill spare slots. It's a nice extra income because it keeps slots I have nothing better to produce with right now occupied, but that's it. T2 BPOs are a very expensive buyin to a moderate but constant income, yes. But whoever fails to exceed that income without a Tech 2 BPO does so because he is a moron, and not because of his lack of T2 BPOs. The time of tech 2 demand so far above tech 2 production volume that made these items the land of milk and honey are over. -- [17:47] <Mephysto> its dead, jim
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2008.04.09 23:44:00 - [23] Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 09/04/2008 23:51:42 Originally by: Venkul Mul Why? if BPC production is make as efficient as BPO production the BPC inventer get already a huge boost as he can switch production without negative effects, while the BPO owner can't. Why do people keep trotting this argument out? Is there some rule a T2 BPO holder is not permitted to do invention? The issue is T2 BPO holders possess an advantage that no other people in the game have. More to the point that no other people in the game can get unless the T2 BPO holder decides to sell their BPO. Inventors set the prices? Of course they do! Because it costs them more per unit to manufacture anything than a BPO holder does. The T2 BPO holder's very lowest price (break even) will always be high enough to guarantee the BPO holder a profit. Put another way the BPO holder can always afford to undercut inventor prices so they effectively suppress market prices digging into potential inventor profits. Oh, you can make 100 of an item while the BPO holder can only make 10 in the same time frame? Well, the BPO holder can invent enough to produce 90 units (cheaper than your hundred), do so in less time, at lower cost and mitigate overall cost per unit by adding in the lower cost BPO produced items. DISCLOSURE: My corp has a pile of T2 BPOs. None of the super-duper money makers of old but piles of mods, ammo, drones and some ships. This is not about me whining, "I don't have a T2 BPO so no one else should." We also avidly invent on things we do not have BPOs for. People knew invention was coming long before invention arrived. Invention arrived a year or more ago. People have had ample time to know that invention was the future course of EVE. If someone bought a Hulk BPO for 60 billion and CCP turned it into a max run tomorrow that person has no excuses. T2 BPOs should be effectively removed from the game. Give a 6 month warning and be done with them. If you do not CCP has effectively handed an advantage to some players which other players can never overcome via normal game mechanics (e.g. via lottery or missions or LP store or what have you) and that is bogus. -------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
Gridwalker Amarr	Posted - 2008.04.10 00:09:00 - [24] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 09/04/2008 23:51:42 Originally by: Venkul Mul Why? if BPC production is make as efficient as BPO production the BPC inventer get already a huge boost as he can switch production without negative effects, while the BPO owner can't. Why do people keep trotting this argument out? I don't know, because it really doesn't matter. The T2 market is, by and large, absolutely flooded with product without nearly enough buyers. Doesn't matter how many of something you can make a day anymore, since the market simply can't bear what is already there. The small trickle of product that a T2 BPO produces is a drop in the bucket compared to the torrent of products the inventors are dumping on market. All the T2 BPO's could vanish tomorrow, and there would be zero noticeable effect on the quantities available or their prices. So we can argue all day about how screwed up and unfair it is to the guy who joined three months ago wasn't handed a %$#@! free T2 BPO as a sign-up bonus with his trial account, but the undeniable fact remains: invention works, and it works so well that pretty much anyone can afford to buy the T2 item of their choice way before they even have the skill to use them. In other words, invention's undeniable success is the inventor's biggest enemy, and the T2 BPO holder is largely irrelevant in the equation. People can blame T2 BPO holders for their lack of profit, but I think the thousands of math-challenged inventors cranking out tens of thousands of BPC's is pretty darn telling that there is nothing wrong with invention except, perhaps, that it works TOO well. -Grid
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2008.04.10 00:27:00 - [25] Originally by: Gridwalker Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 09/04/2008 23:51:42 Originally by: Venkul Mul Why? if BPC production is make as efficient as BPO production the BPC inventer get already a huge boost as he can switch production without negative effects, while the BPO owner can't. Why do people keep trotting this argument out? I don't know, because it really doesn't matter. The T2 market is, by and large, absolutely flooded with product without nearly enough buyers. Doesn't matter how many of something you can make a day anymore, since the market simply can't bear what is already there. The small trickle of product that a T2 BPO produces is a drop in the bucket compared to the torrent of products the inventors are dumping on market. All the T2 BPO's could vanish tomorrow, and there would be zero noticeable effect on the quantities available or their prices. Agreed but then the people who can still manage to make money in such a market are the T2 BPO holders. Although there is something to be said for people selling below cost because it "feels" to them as if the mats they mined for are "free". Their opportunity cost balance sheets (if they bothered which they clearly do not) would suck. Partly though this is due to money being easy in EVE these days and partly that there is not really much else to do with your money. In real life we save money because that money can earn interest and we know that using it in some venture that breaks even is a waste. But money in your account in EVE just sits. May as well build a ship and sell for cost because there is still a (false) sense that you did something and actually made money. -------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
Autumn Sky Spartan Industrial Manufacturing SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.10 00:28:00 - [26] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h The issue is T2 BPO holders possess an advantage that no other people in the game have. More to the point that no other people in the game can get unless the T2 BPO holder decides to sell their BPO. ... If you do not CCP has effectively handed an advantage to some players which other players can never overcome via normal game mechanics (e.g. via lottery or missions or LP store or what have you) and that is bogus. I wasn't around to get the snowball launchers CCP handed out a few years ago, so I missed out entirely on that party....sniffle.... So by your logic, all items with limited availability/production should be destroyed or nerfed? Please, give the older players a break. They've been ISK grinding for longer than we have. Your suggestion is beyond unfair to them. Did you read the hideously long thread about the changes the devs proposed for carriers? I remember it pretty well. I say, let them keep what they worked for. I'm sure at least a few of them earned a Tech 2 BPO or two. Slackers - We came. We saw. We took our sweet time.
IonHammer Minmatar Black Avatar Lost Sheep Domain	Posted - 2008.04.10 00:39:00 - [27] Edited by: IonHammer on 10/04/2008 00:42:30 While holding 6 t2 bpo's myself the market price of t2 stuff is really set by a number of main factors. 1. T2 bpo holders, this was a supply limitation b4 invention, demand set the market price since moon materials were abundant cost was minimal. Most t2 bpo holders have seen around a 1/4- 1/10 reduction in revenue on high value equipmentand a 1/2 to 1/6 on ships especially hulks since invention. 2. Invention, has allowed supply to increase hence price per unit has dropped. Nothing special there. 3. Moon material cartel's, I expect this is where the main cost factor is and the main limiting factor atm. 0.0 allainces have strong revenue streams from moon mining and anyone that builds t2 gear either from bpo or bpc know's this. 4. Another trend that increases prices over time is the fact that there is a limit on moon production. There are no new moons. So as the player base increases and demand for t2 increases bpo's production in maxed out. Increases can only come from invention, with the main limiting factor being moon mins. So once again moon mins prices rise due to limited supply as opposed to bpc supply from invention. So in ending while its easy to argue that bpo holders have an unfair advantage we did not do anything wrong other that have say 15-20 research alts and be lucky. The main issue in production is not bpo's or invention but moon cartell's The only easy way to help this is to open up higher and higher sec for moon mining. If thats your real life i'm very jealous - Petwraith
Gridwalker Amarr	Posted - 2008.04.10 00:49:00 - [28] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Agreed but then the people who can still manage to make money in such a market are the T2 BPO holders. That's a pretty lame situation to be in though. I mean, your trusty T2 BPO might actually be able to make a very modest profit in a few markets on extremely low volume items. And it may not even be true, because the inventors just flood those markets anyway, so product doesn't exactly fly off the shelves. Quote: Although there is something to be said for people selling below cost because it "feels" to them as if the mats they mined for are "free". Their opportunity cost balance sheets (if they bothered which they clearly do not) would suck. Good observation, and people have done this even with T1 items. Sometimes I buy them and re-list them at a higher price. Other times, I just buy them refine them for their mins to build other things. Usually, however, I just stop building those things until that particular person gets bored and wanders off to do something else. :) Quote: Partly though this is due to money being easy in EVE these days and partly that there is not really much else to do with your money. In real life we save money because that money can earn interest and we know that using it in some venture that breaks even is a waste. But money in your account in EVE just sits. May as well build a ship and sell for cost because there is still a (false) sense that you did something and actually made money. I agree with you 100% here. In the real world, it takes a long time, a lot of effort, significant capital, and a lot of help to start a multinational business. In EVE, anyone can do it on their first day. If it doesn't work out, they just break out the mining barge and gather up some ore, or go ratting for a few hours. No big deal. It would be hard, however, in the real world to convince investors to pony up a billion dollars to build a factory, hire staff, and start production on a product that you intend to sell for less than the cost of manufacture. Even harder if the market you choose is already flooded with product that no one wants anyway. If builders were only allowed to make isk based on the products they sell, the stations would be full of beggars. ;-) -Grid
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2008.04.10 01:22:00 - [29] Originally by: Autumn Sky I wasn't around to get the snowball launchers CCP handed out a few years ago, so I missed out entirely on that party....sniffle.... So by your logic, all items with limited availability/production should be destroyed or nerfed? Please, give the older players a break. They've been ISK grinding for longer than we have. Your suggestion is beyond unfair to them. Did you read the hideously long thread about the changes the devs proposed for carriers? I remember it pretty well. I say, let them keep what they worked for. I'm sure at least a few of them earned a Tech 2 BPO or two. A) Snowball launchers did not provide any benefit whatsoever. They were a novelty item. B) They melted all the ammo long ago and IIRC they even removed the launcher now. C) I have been playing since 2003. Believe me ISK is a LOT (caps very intended) easier today than it was back then. You do not know what a grind is till you mine in an unbonused cruiser using T1 lasers to collect enough minerals for a single battleship. Most T2 BPO holders have made their money off them and then some long ago (unless you won a T2 micro-smartbomb BPO in which case sucks to be you). Those few dumb enough to drop 60 billion on one today are just stupid and stupid people and their money are soon parted (it's a wonder they ever got together in the first place). -------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2008.04.10 01:28:00 - [30] Question: If T2 BPOs really are as near worthless as many here make them out to be then why fuss over their removal? If they provide little to no benefit to the owners then removing them should be a non-issue. -------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"

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