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Gates- the real failure of low-sec

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Zurrar	Posted - 2008.04.10 18:52:00 - [91] Originally by: Gort I cannot understand how this post is worth four pages. Really, I can't. Ships are caught at gates, belts, or stations, with gates being far and away the primary hunting ground. They are Eve's waterholes. Everywhere else other than mentioned above it's a fools errand to try to hunt down a ship. It's DNA of the Eve universe. Probing is difficult, slow, and easily countered. Etc. Etc. Etc. Nothing to see here. Move along. G i dont really use gates anymore, i cyno :)
Adunh Slavy Ammatar Trade Syndicate The ENTITY.	Posted - 2008.04.10 19:13:00 - [92] Originally by: Gort Ships are caught at gates, belts, or stations, with gates being far and away the primary hunting ground. They are Eve's waterholes. This is true only because "space" in Eve is basicly ignored. Look at Fereelancer or Silent Hunter, space in those games has meaning, movement across those spaces has consequence and value. In Eve, it doesn't matter if a warpabale object is 20 AU away or 1000 km away. Eve "Space" is more a collection of rooms than it is outer space.
Sergio Ling Veto.	Posted - 2008.04.11 11:25:00 - [93] oh come on. it's Through Threw is the past tense of throw _
Cpt Branko Surge. Night's Dawn	Posted - 2008.04.11 12:35:00 - [94] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 11/04/2008 12:36:03 Originally by: Zurrar like i said somewhere earlier in this post, i did not, and have not lost a ship in low sec to pvp, in oh.... almost a year. i know how to stay out of low-sec, and how to do L4 missions. WHAT IM TRYING TO SAY IS THAT THERE IS SOMETHING SERIOUSLY WRONG WITH ME, I GET KILLED WHENEVER I GO TO LOW-SEC AND CCP MUST FIX IT. GATE CAMPS KILL ME, AND FIXING THIS PROBLEM WOULD SAVE ME TAKING A DETOUR THROUGH HIGH-SEC WHEN IM HAULING STUFF. BOLDED BECAUSE I BELIEVE MY ITERON SHOULD HAVE FREE PASS EVERYWHERE, CCCP FIX! Fixed. Btw, I've had fun with a alt yesterday (training up a bestower and a few thingies for it) - and I've found interestingly enough that within 2 hours of making it (I didn't even send any ISK to it, I wanted to see how feasible it is for a new player to get in a frig and move to low-sec), you can use a 800K SP alt to live in low-sec. It's redicilously easy and takes about two to three hours (and there's so many low-sec systems which are out of the way and you can do your thing in peace. If you know where to find them. I also got my first podkill within three hours of playing, total LOLs). Then again, I guess I'm not the kind of loser the OP is. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Sevan Rax Blue.	Posted - 2008.04.11 13:54:00 - [95] Originally by: Adunh Slavy Originally by: Gort Ships are caught at gates, belts, or stations, with gates being far and away the primary hunting ground. They are Eve's waterholes. This is true only because "space" in Eve is basically ignored. Look at Freelancer or Silent Hunter, space in those games has meaning, movement across those spaces has consequence and value. In Eve, it doesn't matter if a warpabale object is 20 AU away or 1000 km away. Eve "Space" is more a collection of rooms than it is outer space. QFTFT! I Personally have to agree with what CCP have already stated that: Scanning must become a much more intuitive and an active part of a pilots skill set, 'Trainable' and 'Actual'. I fervently believe that this could* be the single biggest and positive change made in Eve to date... so much more may become possible with this change and may begin the revolution that eve needs. * I reserve the right to invite others to supply the cheese for this later. Blue Vs Red
Adunh Slavy Ammatar Trade Syndicate The ENTITY.	Posted - 2008.04.11 15:54:00 - [96] Originally by: Sevan Rax Originally by: Adunh Slavy This is true only because "space" in Eve is basically ignored. Look at Freelancer or Silent Hunter, space in those games has meaning, movement across those spaces has consequence and value. In Eve, it doesn't matter if a warpabale object is 20 AU away or 1000 km away. Eve "Space" is more a collection of rooms than it is outer space. QFTFT! I Personally have to agree with what CCP have already stated that: Scanning must become a much more intuitive and an active part of a pilots skill set, 'Trainable' and 'Actual'. I fervently believe that this could* be the single biggest and positive change made in Eve to date... so much more may become possible with this change and may begin the revolution that eve needs. I recall hearing that as well, during one of the tournament interviews I think it was. A scanning improvement is all well and good, but with out changing how ships move in warp I am not sure what good it will do. Despite recent issues with the alt key (moons) and some past changes to the directional scanner (loss of 2d map), it is still a very effective tool to find others. However, all scanning and probes find relatively stationary targets. There is no such thing, in Eve, as chasing down a target while it is in warp - we simply warp much too fast. If all the change brings is a new scanner to find the same old 'stationary' targets, then what's the point. The current tools work just fine in the current warp mechanics environment. To have a dynamic and interesting active/passive scan tool set be anything other than dressing up the current tools, space is going to have to change. I'm not sure the Eve community is ready for it to take 10 to 20 minutes to fly across a solar system. The Real Space Initiative - V5 (Forum Link)
Sixtyniner Videotape Action Movement	Posted - 2008.04.11 15:59:00 - [97] Haven¦t read it all, but my first thought was: You didn¦t play before Castor...
Adunh Slavy Ammatar Trade Syndicate The ENTITY.	Posted - 2008.04.12 00:43:00 - [98] Originally by: Sixtyniner Haven¦t read it all, but my first thought was: You didn¦t play before Castor... Gates was one solution, there are others that are much more intresting. The Real Space Initiative - V5 (Forum Link)
Haridas Gopal Gallente	Posted - 2008.04.12 11:28:00 - [99] It is simple for low sec: Put all warp stabs you can in low slots and travel through low sec. When you are in a target system, dock, put normal stuff in low slots and go do whatever you want. You can also put cloak in high slot to avoid attackers. It is a hassle, but it works for me. Furthermore find some intel channel to have info on camps.
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.04.12 11:54:00 - [100] Originally by: Haridas Gopal It is simple for low sec: Put all warp stabs you can in low slots and travel through low sec. When you are in a target system, dock, put normal stuff in low slots and go do whatever you want. You can also put cloak in high slot to avoid attackers. It is a hassle, but it works for me. Furthermore find some intel channel to have info on camps. I predict you'll soon die to an heavy dictor... ------------------------------------------

Manic Smile Altruism. Malice.	Posted - 2008.04.12 20:51:00 - [101] Originally by: Lo3d3R Edited by: Lo3d3R on 10/04/2008 10:59:12 To the OP: You are the real failure of low-sec, if you are not prepared to take the risc or use viable methods of securing your travels, you should stay out of low-sec. Further more there is some talk about boosting sentry guns, lay down the krackpipe please. Since WTZ nerf/boost? sniping is gone, chasing is gone, waiting for someone without bookmarks is gone. Now the only way you can get people with a blockade in low-sec is beeing on the right side of the gate. Pirate camps have been nerfed BIGTIME, I'm actually surprised people still play this role (had large break around introduction of WTZ), but hey after a month of Nano-Blobbing in 0.0 its still more fun... I think. In short boosting sentryfire will destroy piracy, and I do not think we want that, now do we... If by piracy you mean gate camps I'm all for it ending. I've been on both ends many times and they both suck hard. I rather like the idea suggested about removing gates but forcing a timer between jumps. Seems more of a challenge then ganking some sitting duck. Especially since many of those ebil pirates nub out when a larger fleet is droped on them. Everyone whining is just crying out their easy button.
Karlemgne Tides Of War	Posted - 2008.04.12 21:00:00 - [102] Originally by: Zurrar Edited by: Zurrar on 10/04/2008 10:07:00 Edited by: Zurrar on 10/04/2008 10:06:32 not really, 0.0 hic's/dictors can bubble a gate rather easy, or anchor a small/medium bubble behind the gate. a good probe pilot can scan down a ship in 30 seconds even less... the fact they ARENT cloaked when entering the system, and the cov ops can scram would give them a proper place in eve. gates would still serve a purpose here, and tactics would need to change. As of now 90% of the gangs i roam with dont use cov ops for anything but checking the next system, if theres a bubble on the gate the cov ops is as good as dead in most cases. Right, so your proposal is to: 1. Make camping a choke pointless as far as people coming into 0.0 2. Eliminate low-sec pvp. Have I got that right?
Karlemgne Tides Of War	Posted - 2008.04.12 21:03:00 - [103] Originally by: Zurrar Originally by: Izo Azlion Originally by: Zurrar Edited by: Zurrar on 10/04/2008 10:19:45 the goal is to remove gate warfare, which is what kills low sec. if they want to rat they will have to go to a belt. honestly removing combat at the one side of gates wouldnt be bad, not in the least, and carriers cant use gates :P wanted to point that out. and tactics could be developed, theres always bumping. And is it needed that you have to 'catch' everything? most of the time your chasing nano gangs, and if your not a nano gang you want catch them. I was stating the fact that even some of the largest ships in EVE, two classes from the top, can warp before they're probed out, after jumping into system in the method you describe. Your other flaw is people dont go NPCing in low-sec. On top, if I land on a gate with people there, and they dont aggress, so I jump through, chances are I'm safe as they'll spawn elsewhere. You're making any chance of chance engagements null and void apart from the rare belt fights. Soon we'll have to enter a battlegrounds situation. ppl dont npc in low sec because getting to the system is the most dangerous part. think about it... when i started every ship but one i lost on the gate not out ratting. People don't rat in low-sec because they can make 10x as much ratting in 0.0 or 15x as much running missions. You fail.
Karlemgne Tides Of War	Posted - 2008.04.12 21:04:00 - [104] Originally by: Zurrar most of what i talk about are low sec->0.0 gates, and traders. If more people were inclined to rat in low sec (even the nubs) maybe more would be willing to leave for 0.0... pull up the in game map, and click 'active pilots' you see high sec as a huge blob and the surrounding systems vacant... Christ, dude. We don't need more people in boring ass 0.0. We need more people in low-sec.
Karlemgne Tides Of War	Posted - 2008.04.12 21:19:00 - [105] Originally by: NightmareX Edited by: NightmareX on 10/04/2008 12:22:06 Lets call this topic: Carebears - the real EVE problem everywhere. 1st. Some noobs want local removed (OMG I CAN'T DO MISSIONS IN LOW SEC WITH NO RISK). 2nd. Some other noobs want nanos removed (That basicly will remove roaming gang). 3rd. Some other noob tard want gate camping removed (Oh noes, no safe passage via low sec). 4th. Someone want the doomsday Device on Titans removed (You might just trash the whole Titan than with the roles it have atm then instead). What the hell are you idiots trying to get this game to be? the new WoW in space? Just call EVE Online for Carebear Online instead, it sound more right with all of those stupid topics. Oh btw, this topic is nothing more than: ╔═╦═╦╦═╗ ║═╣═║║╔╝ ║═╣╔╣║╚╗ ╚═╩╝╚╩═╝ ╔═╦══╦╦╗ ║╔╣╔╗║║║ ║╚╣╚╝║║║ ║╔╣╔╗║║╚╗ ╚╝╚╝╚╩╩═╝ /agree mostly However, I was in roving pirate gangs long before nano-ships became the fow. Not that I advocate removing nano-ships (well maybe restricting them to Minmatar). I'm just suggesting that your second point is a bit alarmist and hysterical.
Karlemgne Tides Of War	Posted - 2008.04.12 21:21:00 - [106] Originally by: Manic Smile Edited by: Manic Smile on 12/04/2008 21:01:23 Originally by: Lo3d3R Edited by: Lo3d3R on 10/04/2008 10:59:12 To the OP: You are the real failure of low-sec, if you are not prepared to take the risc or use viable methods of securing your travels, you should stay out of low-sec. Further more there is some talk about boosting sentry guns, lay down the krackpipe please. Since WTZ nerf/boost? sniping is gone, chasing is gone, waiting for someone without bookmarks is gone. Now the only way you can get people with a blockade in low-sec is beeing on the right side of the gate. Pirate camps have been nerfed BIGTIME, I'm actually surprised people still play this role (had large break around introduction of WTZ), but hey after a month of Nano-Blobbing in 0.0 its still more fun... I think. In short boosting sentryfire will destroy piracy, and I do not think we want that, now do we... If by piracy you mean gate camps I'm all for it ending. I've been on both ends many times and they both suck hard. I rather like the idea suggested about removing gates but forcing a timer between jumps. Seems more of a challenge then ganking some sitting duck. Especially since many of those ebil pirates nub out when a larger fleet is droped on them. Everyone whining is just crying out their easy button. just a little edit, roaming works fine, even in low sec A lot of everyone runs from fights where overwhelming force is brought to bare. This isn't a "pirate" only phenomena. That's how most fights in rl and eve work. -Karl
Adunh Slavy Ammatar Trade Syndicate The ENTITY.	Posted - 2008.04.12 22:04:00 - [107] Edited by: Adunh Slavy on 12/04/2008 22:04:46 Originally by: Karlemgne Right, so your proposal is to: 1. Make camping a choke pointless as far as people coming into 0.0 2. Eliminate low-sec pvp. Have I got that right? Elimination of gates does not mean an end to PVP if there are other mechanics to go along with the removal of gates.
Hannobaal Gallente Shadow Forces Inc.	Posted - 2008.04.12 22:56:00 - [108] Originally by: Adunh Slavy Edited by: Adunh Slavy on 12/04/2008 22:04:46 Originally by: Karlemgne Right, so your proposal is to: 1. Make camping a choke pointless as far as people coming into 0.0 2. Eliminate low-sec pvp. Have I got that right? Elimination of gates does not mean an end to PVP if there are other mechanics to go along with the removal of gates. They'd need to be mechanics that allow people to force fights and shut down space in the way that gates do, or else they will make combat in Eve meaningless. Gates allready do this perfectly and without any real problems. In fact, that is exactly why you people want them changed. Because you don't want this to be the case. Gates are a perfectly working game mechanic. No need to fix what isn't broken.
Ashlee Darksky	Posted - 2008.04.12 23:14:00 - [109] Originally by: Zurrar As it stands most of eves fighting takes place at gates. Its a tactic and that is used, let the enemy Agro and jump threw ect. This is where the low sec part of eve loses, pirates camping the gates that any player entering the system 'spawns' at. This is similar to spawn camping in most other games. Why not change the way gates operate. From my understanding gates operate by launching the ship to the next system, and not transporting them threw gate to gate. Why not have random points that the star gate will launch ships into, away from the gates. These would be similar to the high lag 'emergency' warps that some people have when jumping systems. This would 1. eliminate gate camps as they are and 2. make ops in a system more in depth. Gang members would be launched to the same point, ships would no longer be cloaked when entering systems. Probe ships that are good at what they do and can scram would be very use full here. I think gates should be banned altogether. They are bad for pilots, bad for ships and bad for EVE as a whole. Everyone should stay in their starting system and fly around in real time. Other things to ban: Mining Ratting Missions Complexes PVP Gatecamps (oops, already did that by removing the gates, silly me) Pirates Non Pirates Traders Scammers Ships (these are also very damaging to your health) Health and Safety Seriously...!?!? I like gatecamps, the answer is more gatecamps not less of them. They should all be camped, and the stations too. Anyone undocking should be blown to smithereens right away. It was only today I warped into a gatecamp and a bubble. Do you know what I did? I screamed hysterically (just picture it a moment), then engaged my cloak, then moved out of the bubble, disengaged my cloak, warped to a belt, then finally engaged my cloak again. The engaging of the cloak was the final act, unless of course you consider cowering and shaking to the tune of Benny Hill whilst I waited for them to go away. After that, I simply approached the gate from a different direction (sans bubble) and hopped through quite happily. Although waiting 80 million years to traverse the vast distance would have also been just as entertaining.
Adunh Slavy Ammatar Trade Syndicate The ENTITY.	Posted - 2008.04.12 23:32:00 - [110] Originally by: Hannobaal Gates are a perfectly working game mechanic. No need to fix what isn't broken. Subjective statements do not create facts The Real Space Initiative - V5 (Forum Link)

Rawr Cristina Caldari Naqam	Posted - 2008.04.12 23:46:00 - [111] Originally by: Zurrar honestly removing combat at the one side of gates wouldnt be bad, WTZ did that now you want to do it on the other side too? ...
Lurana Lay	Posted - 2008.04.13 01:03:00 - [112] shrugs I (and I suspect a lot of other people) used to Blockade Ship (Crane) run stuff back and forth with little worries once upon a time. The rise of the Heavy Interdictor changed that for me, I just use a corp mover (a cap) and avoid hauling entirely in LowSec anymore. Ends up being cheaper in the long run.
Cpt Branko Surge. Night's Dawn	Posted - 2008.04.13 02:28:00 - [113] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 13/04/2008 02:34:59 Edited by: Cpt Branko on 13/04/2008 02:30:09 Edited by: Cpt Branko on 13/04/2008 02:29:25 Originally by: Adunh Slavy Originally by: Hannobaal Gates are a perfectly working game mechanic. No need to fix what isn't broken. Subjective statements do not create facts The necessity to prove they're broken lies with the people saying they're broken. That said, there MUST be a way to intercept traffic. Gates do this just fine. You can break them up by force or avoid them via scouts, which makes them very balanced too. The fact you don't like them and they don't fit your vision of how EvE should work is your own bloody problem. I mean, it fits the dev vision of how it should work quite neatly. Because they've done it that way and never ever said a word about changing how gates work. To the guy above: it changed nothing for blockade runners. I mean, a HIC isn't exactly going to catch a properly flown/fitted blockade runner. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Karlemgne Tides Of War	Posted - 2008.04.13 05:32:00 - [114] Originally by: Adunh Slavy Edited by: Adunh Slavy on 12/04/2008 22:04:46 Originally by: Karlemgne Right, so your proposal is to: 1. Make camping a choke pointless as far as people coming into 0.0 2. Eliminate low-sec pvp. Have I got that right? aElimination of gates does not mean an end to PVP if there are other mechanics to go along with the removal of gates. Like what? As it stands today such a change would completely eliminate all non-consensual pvp in low-sec. Period. Nobody rats in low-sec so you won't find anyone in belts (its a joke if you suggest otherwise). The only thing left would possibly be scanning out those dozens of low-sec missioners. Literally dozens (I think there are 24 in game atm). I don't even camp gates and I can see this is an awful idea. The problem is people like yourself who see 0.0 and 0.0 alliances as the end game, and the only possible source of legit pvp. Sadly this attitude hurts the game, and seeks primarily to push out a whole cadre of players who don't have the inclination or patience to be a cog in a 0.0 alliance, nano***** everything, or engage in being screamed at on vent/ts in the 200 person primary pop lag fest that you call "pvp." -K
Karlemgne Tides Of War	Posted - 2008.04.13 05:37:00 - [115] Originally by: Lurana Lay shrugs I (and I suspect a lot of other people) used to Blockade Ship (Crane) run stuff back and forth with little worries once upon a time. The rise of the Heavy Interdictor changed that for me, I just use a corp mover (a cap) and avoid hauling entirely in LowSec anymore. Ends up being cheaper in the long run. Last time I checked, cap ships can't go to hi-sec, so you've got to be using something to get your goods to the jump freighter.... err carrier/rorqual you call a "corp mover." That and my alts blockade runner has never been caught at a gate, ever. Not even by double sensor boosted HACtors. One i-stab 2 should do the trick for you. -K
OffBeaT	Posted - 2008.04.13 08:44:00 - [116] Edited by: OffBeaT on 13/04/2008 08:46:11 For me insta worping from gate too gate/stations realy effects me in a bad way. i cant hang out around a gate and scan ship configs anymore befor i plane too engage them in combat. now with all these speed skills i have maxed out and other skills too have this ability too run gates/scan ships around gates, i find that i cant use them anymore becouse there is no freaking ships around the gates anymore if you dont got too do your 10sec dash too the gates/stations. i guess i am saying, why did i work these skills again & for what reason now and this is just the iceing of the problem too **** me off. What realy bugs me the most is the fact that the hole atmosphere of the game is gone, i dont see any ships anymore but i do see all kinds of people in chat in the systems but not talking not being what eve was a social game. when i was a noob in eve it was the best too see ships in empire moving too the gates people talking becouse they had the time too say somthing or too look around too see what people where saying too be a noob and marval at the big ships moving back and through the gates and could see what i could be in eve down the road. i wonted too have a ship like that, but now if i wont too see any of these grand ships i have too see it as a freaking pitcher in the market. comon, bring the feeling back of me being a small part of a grand pitcher in eve. man, insta jumps got to go for alot of reasons and not just can i gank this guy or not at a gate. i feel so alone out here in empire with just faces to look at to pass the time. Where are the freaken ships anymore? it dont feel right, like it did befor. give the noobs somthing in empire too look at and ponder about, like in life a trafic jam is a trafic jam and live with it.
Tobias Sjodin Ore Mongers Black Hand.	Posted - 2008.04.13 08:49:00 - [117] Edited by: Tobias Sjodin on 13/04/2008 08:50:28 This is the funniest thread I've read on these forums in a long time. Thanks Zurrar. You should post more. Black Hand.
Buyerr	Posted - 2008.04.13 11:31:00 - [118] hehe i have been saying this for ages... but well i guess any such intelligent would be blasfemisk to the eyes of a normal eve player or dev XD I declare war on stupidity
Buyerr	Posted - 2008.04.13 11:33:00 - [119] Originally by: Rodj Blake Your proposal would make it impossible to catch anyone who doesn't want to get caught. ehh nope, it would be easy enough, set up a boble at the gate.. ow you mean in low sec?! wtf you can't gank some one in concord protected space with 100% succes no matter how freaking intelligent he is and how he do, just be sitting 10+ members at a gate ?! ohhh how sad XD (ironi) I declare war on stupidity
Dez Affinity Ore Mongers Black Hand.	Posted - 2008.04.13 13:29:00 - [120] Originally by: Buyerr Edited by: Buyerr on 13/04/2008 11:46:27 ehh nope, it would be easy enough, set up a boble at the gate.. ow you mean in low sec?! wtf you can't gank some one in concord protected space with 100% succes no matter how freaking intelligent he is and how he do, just be sitting 10+ members at a gate ?! ohhh how sad XD (ironi) It's never 100 percent success and it IS NOT CONCORD protected space, it is LOW SECURITY, i.e. minimal amounts of security, aka the gate guns. Also that's not irony, that's sarcasm. Originally by: Buyerr well lowsec is supposed to be semi safe, so where again is it a bad thing that you cannot gank some one who just DON'T want to get ganked?? he can't do anything but docking and passing by the system if he want to be out of harms way. Non-consensual PvP, just because you don't want to interact with other players doesn't mean you should be allowed to. Semi-safe does not equal completly safe, you might not want to get ganked, but all you can do is try not to, which if done right you can't be ganked. Originally by: Buyerr in 0.0 it would seriously help on the fleet warfare, as it is now you got two 400+- man fleets on each side of the gate and no one warps though since they KNOW the one to warp though will lose 1/5 of their ships to lag, since they will be dead before even loading the grid, while the guys on the other side will be able to attack them meanwhile. this would fix that problem to some extens. It would work the same, will just be POS that lags you out instead. Originally by: Buyerr besides 0.0 is a non safe area and there you got blobles which will make you land 50-100 km from the gate giving the campers more then enough time to lock you down and kill you. 0.0 isn't as instadeath as you think and gatecamps are still avoidable, although of course more difficult. Originally by: Buyerr the thing this do is two things, helps a lot on the lag that comes when entering a new system with a ton of people at the gate, giving some more valid tactics. and making lowsec safe to pass by if you don't want to do anything but pass by it (which was kind of the whole idea of lowsec in the first place, semi safe) You want to pass by, but people want to kill you, why should it be you that gets what you want and not them? _______________



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