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Drake vs. Myrm part XXX

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Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS	Posted - 2008.04.12 06:10:00 - [61] Originally by: General Coochie Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton your webbed/scrammed and hes faster than you you disengage how? Oh, I thought the answer was obvious: He's fitting stabs. -Liang ECM drones? forum rules dictate 3x damage mods, biggest guns, and 2x ogre, 2x hammerhead, 1x hobgoblin duh! yea i came up with a few setups that should beat the drake. blasters + damage mods + ecm drones, drop him down a bit once you have enough of a lead drop the hammerheads and poof goes the drake. 150m3 drone space, use it
Kaileen Starsong Amarr Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2008.04.12 06:31:00 - [62] Originally by: Rawr Cristina Drake will move away from the Myrm a lot faster than 20m/s. The only way the Myrm could keep the Drake in webrange was either if it MWDed also, crippling it's own tank, or was neuting. Neuts are pretty much the only way the Myrm can actually win really. Seems like not much people fit dual webs on their myrms nowadays As for popping drones.. yeah, go on. It takes what - 6 seconds to lock an ogre in non-sensorboosted Drake? If Myrm pilot has troubles with keeping drones alive, he has something more to worry about tbh Also, I'm wondering, what's the midslot config of the Drake in discussion? I'm interested how it has 100k normalized buffer, while having point, web and mwd.
Wideen Caldari Eon Project Legion of Honor	Posted - 2008.04.12 09:03:00 - [63] Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton Harbinger!!! woop woop woop You just won the Drake vs. Myrm thread Originally by: F'nog Your math intrigues me, and I wish to subscribe to its newsletter.
Mrski Okupator Amarr The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.04.12 09:11:00 - [64] Originally by: Wideen Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton Harbinger!!! woop woop woop You just won the Drake vs. Myrm thread Ditto. But seriously. Myrmidon > Drake. It is kinda sad that the drake is the only BC that can solo just about every lvl4 mission, requires low sp so ppl use it.. But in pvp it comes third at best. For solo pvp, which doesnt exist anymore, a drake jast can't fit tackling gear, mwd and a tank. And for gangs, the other options (myrmi, harbi, hurricane) are simply a better choice. Sure, drake can instapop unbonused t1 heavies (lol) and give ceptors a run for their money, but thats about it. Low dps or low range, low mobility; tackling or tank. Keep it in empire. ___
Cpt Cosmic	Posted - 2008.04.12 09:15:00 - [65] well I fly this: [Drake, PvP] Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Damage Control II Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I Fleeting Warp Scrambler I Large Shield Extender II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile [empty high slot] Core Defence Field Extender I Core Defence Field Extender I Core Defence Field Extender I I would not say it has no dps, no tackle and no tank :) and btw after the myrms drones are killed it is a useless brick that will soon turn into scrapmetal :)
Kurt Gergard Caldari Federal European Industry Science and Research	Posted - 2008.04.12 10:45:00 - [66] Edited by: Kurt Gergard on 12/04/2008 10:45:51 Heh never thought about a drake as a solo pvp ship. Btw. why are core defence field extenders favourd over core defence field purgers ? "No plan has ever survived the contact with the enemy" von Moltke
DHG Precision Engineering Insurgency	Posted - 2008.04.12 10:53:00 - [67] Originally by: General Coochie Originally by: Liang Nuren Oh, I thought the answer was obvious: He's fitting stabs. -Liang ECM drones? Well, it's not because you can't figure out how to use 150m¦ of dronebay while only having 75mbit of bandwidth that others automatically fit stabs, lian. Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton your webbed/scrammed and hes faster than you you disengage how? Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton forum rules dictate 3x damage mods, biggest guns, and 2x ogre, 2x hammerhead, 1x hobgoblin duh! yea i came up with a few setups that should beat the drake. blasters + damage mods + ecm drones, drop him down a bit once you have enough of a lead drop the hammerheads and poof goes the drake. 150m3 drone space, use it Why did you gave the obvious answer yourself while attempting to invalidate my point about not needlessly dieing (the web/faster part)? You disagree with me just for the sake of disagreeing?
Gypsio III Bambooule	Posted - 2008.04.12 10:59:00 - [68] Quote: But in pvp it comes third at best. For solo pvp, which doesnt exist anymore, a drake jast can't fit tackling gear, mwd and a tank. And for gangs, the other options (myrmi, harbi, hurricane) are simply a better choice. Sure, drake can instapop unbonused t1 heavies (lol) and give ceptors a run for their money, but thats about it. Low dps or low range, low mobility; tackling or tank. Complete rubbish, you're wrong on every count. Drake fits MWD, tackle and a tank fine, and it's superior in gang because of good DPS out to good range. As for "no solo pvp", I suggest you GTFO of 0.0 - it's the ******** of Eve.
Euriti Gallente SniggWaffe	Posted - 2008.04.12 11:01:00 - [69] Originally by: Kurt Gergard Edited by: Kurt Gergard on 12/04/2008 10:45:51 Heh never thought about a drake as a solo pvp ship. Btw. why are core defence field extenders favourd over core defence field purgers ? Buffer.
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2008.04.12 11:36:00 - [70] Why would anyone tank a gang pvp battlecruiser? I mean you're very rarely primary in a Drake, use that advantage and go all out gank. --------------- you all smell!

Gorefacer Caldari Resurrection Cosmic Anomalies	Posted - 2008.04.12 17:27:00 - [71] Edited by: Gorefacer on 12/04/2008 17:33:08 part XXX? Is this when things get sexy? Edit: I went back and read the thread and didn't get turned on. Not even once . "You can't reason someone out of a belief they haven't reasoned themselves into" - Prometheus
Dheorl The Scope	Posted - 2008.04.12 19:22:00 - [72] Originally by: Gorefacer Edited by: Gorefacer on 12/04/2008 17:33:08 part XXX? Is this when things get sexy? Edit: I went back and read the thread and didn't get turned on. Not even once . Really. The number of bonii I got out of this thread is unbelivable.
Sheamis Kast I-Omniscient-I	Posted - 2008.04.12 23:48:00 - [73] Originally by: Cpt Cosmic Edited by: Cpt Cosmic on 12/04/2008 09:17:14 well I fly this: [Drake, PvP] Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Damage Control II Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I Fleeting Warp Scrambler I Large Shield Extender II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile [empty high slot] Core Defence Field Extender I Core Defence Field Extender I Core Defence Field Extender I I would not say it has no dps, no tackle and no tank :) and btw after the myrms drones are killed it is a useless brick that will soon turn into scrapmetal especially because it has to fly into close range to use its drones effectively :) 'cause all the Drake pilots I know has AWU 5 and a 5% grid implant. And as far as the Myrm having to get close, welcome to the Gallente; that is the whole point of the entire race. Very good damage outputs at very short ranges. If you are shooting drones in a gang fight you are the one who is a useless brick, as far as a solo fight is concerned no intelligent pilot launches his drones before he knows he will get into blaster range. I am more than happy to let you launch a volley at my drones and then pull them all back in instantly, it just means that I have more time to break your tank, which my guns are perfectly capable of on their own.
Rellana DAB	Posted - 2008.04.13 02:11:00 - [74] Any good drake pilot isn't going to let you get close enough for a web,or if you do manage to web them they are going to overheat their MWD and rapidly increase distance.
Jin Entres Malevolent Intervention Reavers.	Posted - 2008.04.13 03:56:00 - [75] Originally by: Rellana Any good drake pilot isn't going to let you get close enough for a web,or if you do manage to web them they are going to overheat their MWD and rapidly increase distance. Yeah right. How about if that drake is the one who's pursuing to get a fight? There are many reasonable situations where a 'good pilot' would wish to get their own web on the other ship. Especially when a good amount if not most encountered hostiles tend to be subparly fitted and skilled. And if the drake won't web the myrmi, it leaves it a big opportunity to escape by doing a u-turn and legging it in the other direction or deaggressing and jumping/docking. If you don't take your chances with webbing, you will miss a lot of kills. By the way, the difference in velocity is not even that great: Myrmi with T2 MWD which it can fit because it has plenty of CPU goes 1034m/s while Drake with Y-T8 goes 1082m/s. With 90% web on both, the difference is a whopping 4.8m/s. Also, a drake fitted like posted above can sustain its cap with mwd running for 2m 47s while a dual rep blaster fitted (1 dmod) injector-using myrmi can also run everything including the mwd for 2m 26s. And this is assuming the myrmi is not dual web fitted. A myrmi with 4 ions 2 electrons, one mag stab and 3 ogres will deal 613 DPS which would take 186 seconds to kill a 85k EHP drake with a 153 dps passive tank. The drake, with 7 hams and 3 bcu's plus 5 warriors would deal 599 dps which would take 229 seconds to kill a dual rep myrmi with dcu + 2 eanm + 2 nano pump + anti-ex rig. With these kind of fittings, the numbers are on the myrmi's side. Piloting in specific situations may be an advantage to either, but is too circumstantial to constitute a clear benefit to one side. I think it is fair to conclude that individual skills, fittings and piloting are more important of a determinant of the outcome between the two ships in question than initial differences in ship stats; or at least any bias is so insignificant as to not warrant one being classified superior to the other outside specific circumstances. --- CEO
Marlona Sky Caldari D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.04.13 04:23:00 - [76] I don't know why you two are fighting because: Drake < Nyx > Myrmidom CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you and... scouts, logistic ships, people to web you, alts with bonuses, not fitting nice gear, avoiding trafic hubs, etc... easy right??
Pan Zhu'Liang Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.04.13 04:49:00 - [77] you know, even at overheated web range antimatter isn't going to do much damage. realistically the myrm would have to be shooting null unless the fight starts at 5km.
Sheamis Kast I-Omniscient-I	Posted - 2008.04.13 07:11:00 - [78] Originally by: Rellana Any good drake pilot isn't going to let you get close enough for a web,or if you do manage to web them they are going to overheat their MWD and rapidly increase distance. Statements like these are just wrought with elitism and pretentiousness. Yes a Drake should try and stay out of web range, but real situations do not always allow for this and getting caught in web range doesn't necessarily make you a bad Drake pilot. Did you even read the earlier posts? I had already addressed this issue. If the Drake can overheat so can the Myrm. The Myrm also has a spare mid slot some people use it for a second web, that sorta defeats your overheating entirely.
Rawr Cristina Caldari Naqam	Posted - 2008.04.13 07:42:00 - [79] Originally by: welsh wizard Why would anyone tank a gang pvp battlecruiser? I mean you're very rarely primary in a Drake, use that advantage and go all out gank. This A basic tank - 1 LSE, 2 invuls and 3 extender rigs, is usually more than enough (more than most in fact) and leaves all your low-slots free AND room for MWD, Point, Web.
Cpt Cosmic	Posted - 2008.04.13 09:13:00 - [80] Edited by: Cpt Cosmic on 13/04/2008 09:13:50 Originally by: Sheamis Kast 'cause all the Drake pilots I know has AWU 5 and a 5% grid implant. And as far as the Myrm having to get close, welcome to the Gallente; that is the whole point of the entire race. Very good damage outputs at very short ranges. If you are shooting drones in a gang fight you are the one who is a useless brick, as far as a solo fight is concerned no intelligent pilot launches his drones before he knows he will get into blaster range. I am more than happy to let you launch a volley at my drones and then pull them all back in instantly, it just means that I have more time to break your tank, which my guns are perfectly capable of on their own. first, I only have AWU 4 and a 3% PG implant but Shield Upgrades 5 and it fits perfectly fine 2nd, the discussion wasnt about gang warfare only, so you are the useless brick know

Sheamis Kast I-Omniscient-I	Posted - 2008.04.13 10:04:00 - [81] Originally by: Cpt Cosmic 2nd, the discussion wasnt about gang warfare only, so you are the useless brick know Way to actually read my post champ. I spoke of both gang and solo combat. I was demonstrating that in either situation shooting the Myrm's drones is a waste, unless the Myrm pilot is especially stupid and sends them out before he has you pinned. Originally by: Cpt Cosmic 3rd, well so you use gangs as argument, in decent gang sized you are dead in 5 seconds after being primary, thats about the time you need to launch your drones and get in close = not a valid argument. In the situation of dieing in 5 seconds, no ship is useful then. The Drake you are so proud of will get off all of one, maybe two volleys. However if you aren't the one who is targeted first, and I see no reason to say that a Myrm would be, then the Myrm offers more DPS to the gang than the Drake at the cost of a small time delay in getting between targets; hardly what I would call an invalidating factor.
Lars Lodar Induseng Enterprises R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.04.13 12:23:00 - [82] Let people underestimate the drake. I think it's a damn good ship that is pretty versatile. I would confidently engage any other BC and believe I'd come out on top.
Deirdre Morrigan	Posted - 2008.04.13 15:57:00 - [83] Argh. Yes, the Drake is a versatile ship, a good BC. So's the Myrmidon. Yes, the Drake will have the upper hand in a variety of situations. So will the Myrmidon. Yes, there are some good general setups that will give you the ability to put yourself into an advantageous position so you can WTFPWN someone - but every ship has these setups so anyone can do this. It's not only a matter of what ship you're in, and your mods & skills, but also what the other guy's running, how the fight starts, who's got better reflexes, and so on and so forth. It starts off like Rock Paper Scissors, sure - but rapidly gets the complexity of Chess. Welcome to a little thing we in the industry call "game balance." Every race has their specialty, the thing they're just the best at. And there are ways that anyone of any race can mitigate that advantage and/or press their own. If you have perfect (or even somewhere between required and perfect) skills to fly a good setup and know what the **** you're doing, you've got an advantage over all the noobs out there - and there are a lot of noobs. Stick with it long enough, and you'll eventually lose your ship, sure. These things happen. Nobody wins all the time. But you'll ** up a lot of people's ** in the meantime.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.04.13 16:00:00 - [84] Originally by: Sheamis Kast Way to actually read my post champ. I spoke of both gang and solo combat. I was demonstrating that in either situation shooting the Myrm's drones is a waste, unless the Myrm pilot is especially stupid and sends them out before he has you pinned. Well, strictly speaking, the drones are the only way that the Myrm is going to deal damage against a faster opponent. What's your solution to being tackled by a Stabber or Rupture - just sit there and die when you run out of cap boosters? How about a Hurricane or Cyclone? Quote: In the situation of dieing in 5 seconds, no ship is useful then. The Drake you are so proud of will get off all of one, maybe two volleys. Believe it or not, I've actually survived such situations in my Drake, and lost in far less perilous situations in my Myrm (though granted last time I was in that situation in a Myrmidon I had fewer SP). The HP buffer really does make a difference. BTW, sorry I haven't been online/posting the last couple of days... as can be seen earlier in the thread, I've been working. :( -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.04.13 16:02:00 - [85] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 13/04/2008 16:02:55 Originally by: Deirdre Morrigan Nobody wins all the time. That was kindof my point in arguing that the Drake is generically better, and specifically better in virtually all situations than the Myrmidon. The Myrm was overnerfed. -Liang Ed: Though to a lesser extent than the Arazu/Lachesis, and somewhat, the Eos. -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Sheamis Kast I-Omniscient-I	Posted - 2008.04.13 22:26:00 - [86] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Sheamis Kast Way to actually read my post champ. I spoke of both gang and solo combat. I was demonstrating that in either situation shooting the Myrm's drones is a waste, unless the Myrm pilot is especially stupid and sends them out before he has you pinned. Well, strictly speaking, the drones are the only way that the Myrm is going to deal damage against a faster opponent. What's your solution to being tackled by a Stabber or Rupture - just sit there and die when you run out of cap boosters? How about a Hurricane or Cyclone? You are correct that that is the only way to attack a faster opponent. However, in a blaster ship if I am being tackled by a significantly faster ship I lose. That is just the way these ships work out. This is why I carry a flight of ECM drones on me; I can't expect to be faster than everyone so I prepare for when I am not. That is what I meant by "waste", you are simply going to lose your combat drones and waste booster charges nine times out of then; the other one time you will force the faster ship to warp off, but that is only if they are newbish. Furthermore, I don't see the Drake performing any better. A well skilled nano'd Stabber will tank your missiles forever, and deal enough damage to kill the standard PvP fit Drake eventually. Originally by: Liang Nuren Quote: In the situation of dieing in 5 seconds, no ship is useful then. The Drake you are so proud of will get off all of one, maybe two volleys. Believe it or not, I've actually survived such situations in my Drake, and lost in far less perilous situations in my Myrm (though granted last time I was in that situation in a Myrmidon I had fewer SP). The HP buffer really does make a difference. BTW, sorry I haven't been online/posting the last couple of days... as can be seen earlier in the thread, I've been working. :( -Liang The dual-repped and plated Myrm setup does not have significantly less effective HP than the Drake (about 56K vs. 69K), but is does had much more defense (about 400 vs. 150). Unless you taking huge amounts of damage, something like 12,000 DPS, they are going to be competitive, and in this case the Drake doesn't last too much better (like 2-3 seconds). I will concede that the Drake is more useful in blob situations, but I just find those situations horribly boring. I prefer smaller situations where the MyrmÆs versatility is an asset, and I also enjoy that same versatility as an end in itself. The Drake is a space brick that spews missiles all over everything, the best is can do for any sort of tricks is a flight of light ECM Drones (at least while maintaining a tank). The Myrm used to be a whole lot better, way better than any other battlecruiser in small scale PvP; but it is still useful. I would like to see medium webbing drones added to the game, I think that this would make the Myrm significantly better and provide a viable counter to some of the slower nano HACs (off topic I know, but whatever). Game balance does favor the Drake right now, but I am trying to say that it is an insignificant one. Differences in character skills and player knowledge are much more likely to determine the fight.
Gypsio III Bambooule	Posted - 2008.04.13 23:00:00 - [87] Quote: Game balance does favor the Drake right now, but I am trying to say that it is an insignificant one. Differences in character skills and player knowledge are much more likely to determine the fight. That. ^^^ When I'm in my HAM Drake, the only BC that worries me is the Myrm. It can tank my damage long enough to grind through my HP.
Vymorna Grom Caldari	Posted - 2008.04.14 02:24:00 - [88] Still, Hurricane FTW. ---------------------------------- Originally by: Ralara Because you touch yourself at night. (dear god, that took 9 logins to post)
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.04.14 04:32:00 - [89] Originally by: Sheamis Kast A well skilled nano'd Stabber will tank your missiles forever, and deal enough damage to kill the standard PvP fit Drake eventually. You know, being that well skilled nano stabber pilot, I can say that I've taken exactly one Drake down solo. That Drake was horribly fit, and even still he put me deep into armor. The Stabber simply cannot deal damage and maintain speed simultaneously, much like the Vagabond. The fact that you don't know this speaks volumes. Quote: Game balance does favor the Drake right now, but I am trying to say that it is an insignificant one. Differences in character skills and player knowledge are much more likely to determine the fight. Indeed. -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Sheamis Kast I-Omniscient-I	Posted - 2008.04.14 06:46:00 - [90] Originally by: Liang Nuren You know, being that well skilled nano stabber pilot, I can say that I've taken exactly one Drake down solo. That Drake was horribly fit, and even still he put me deep into armor. The Stabber simply cannot deal damage and maintain speed simultaneously, much like the Vagabond. The fact that you don't know this speaks volumes. That is what we call the ad hominem fallacy, where you attack a persons character rather then their arguments. If I am wrong you should be able to show why that is the case. For what it is worth, you are correct, I don't fly nano ships or Minmatar ships. So I don't have a wealth of information on this topic, but I took you at your word, that a Stabber was a threat to a Myrm. However, if it can't kill a well fit Drake then a Myrm can tank it forever with no cap boosters needed. So which is it? Either it is a threat to both ships or neither. You can't have it both ways.



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