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Il Morte
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Posted - 2008.04.11 21:08:00 -
[1]
The current training system gives no great advantage to train skills to level 5. As it stands a skill level gives an equal boost to all levels, for example turret skills give a 5% boost to each level. So the maximum you can get is a 25% boost. Short of training for a tech 2 item is 5% much of a difference from level 4 to level 5 to warrant the excessive training time. If each level is equal in value shouldn't the total skill points just be split to 5 stages evenly and the time for each level equal as is the boost. An alternative I would rather see is a 5% increase to the boost for that level with the existing training time for example level 1 - 5% level 2 = 10% + 5% for level 1 = 15%, level 3would be 15% + existing 15% = 30% level 4 would be 20% + the existing 30% totaling 50% etc to a maximum level 5 of 75% increase. This in my opinion would explain why it would several weeks to train a skill to level 5 when level 1 took only 35 minutes for the same amount of increase.
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Faife
Blackrain Solutions Twilight Trade Cartel
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Posted - 2008.04.11 21:09:00 -
[2]
i train level 5 to get skills it unlocks.
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Tzar'rim
Reckless Corsairs
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Posted - 2008.04.11 21:11:00 -
[3]
Because those are what makes the difference between a medium SP and a high SP char. currently training for BC5 to get 10% more damage out of my hurricane.
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2008.04.11 21:12:00 -
[4]
the whole point is to make it faster for new players to catch older players.
every time someone says "YOU'LL NEVER CATCH UP IN EVE" someone always says the same thing, which is in the time an older players gains a 5% increase (30 days) you a newer player can gain about 12 level 4 skills.
Thus older players level up slower than newer players.
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Ikar Kaltin
Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.11 21:12:00 -
[5]
I think the answer to this lies in the roleplay of the skill training. Your character is essentially studying these books teaching you how to get better out of the equipment. To get the first 5% efficiency it wont take you long pouring over the schematics to find how to improve it. The second 5% isnt so easy but not that difficult. When you are getting to level 5 you are getting to a point of great difficulty, trying to optomise the systems for another 5%. You have already taken most of the approaches, so finding those more complex ways to understand it better takes a longer amount of time.
That probably made no sense, but you get the gist.
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Rawr Cristina
Caldari Naqam
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Posted - 2008.04.11 21:14:00 -
[6]
level 5 makes quite a difference. Not enough to make a different in most fights, but every now and then you'll be thankful you've trained it. ...
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Tarminic
Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand
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Posted - 2008.04.11 21:14:00 -
[7]
I see no compelling reason why the way it works now should be changed. ---------------- Tarminic - 34 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.81 (Updated 4/8) |
Il Morte
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Posted - 2008.04.11 21:17:00 -
[8]
Thanks Ikar that response actually makes the most sense in terms of trying to relate the learning times with life in eve.
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Zeba
Minmatar Pator Tech School
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Posted - 2008.04.11 21:18:00 -
[9]
Level 5 skills might not make alot of sense until you realize the really uber fits absolutely need that last 5% grid or cpu savings to be able to mount on your ship or just that slight edge in dps to win a fight. Trust once you run out of level 4 skills then kill off all the level 5s you can and you will notice a difference. Granted this mostly applies to pvp but to a lesser degree to all other aspects of eve. Plus some level 5 just beg to be trained like drone interafcing with its 20% per level drone damage bonus.
Originally by: Malcanis Too many people confuse "Waah, I didn't get my own way" with 'poor customer service'.
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Cloora
Black River Industries
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Posted - 2008.04.11 21:20:00 -
[10]
It is how you sell EVE to new players. You tell them about the laws of diminishing returns and how you gain advantages in whatever you train much MUCH faster then someone with 20+million SP.
Then when they have lvl 4's in a lot of skills they see how getting lvll 5's are like other MMO's version of unlocking epic weapons or gear. You get T2 equipment and T2 ships and advanced skills.
EVE is a wonderfully done system IMO. I started in late 2006 and I got to a point where I was decent in industry and mining fairly fast. I got good enough in PvP to really add something to the gang in not much time at all. I was doing what I wanted pretty early on yet I saw stuff and things I wanted way down the line which kept me interested.
Now I am near "endgame" I am PvPing in BSes and not that worried about if I lose it as I have 5 more ready to go. I have Industry down and I make oodles of ISK from it. But I still have some things I can do. Cap ships are still a draw for me and maybe trying my hand at some 0.0 would be fun.
In other MMO's if you want to experiance other "classes" you made a new alt and leveled him/her up. In EVE you just train new skills if you are comfertable where you are in one area you move on to the next.
For example, I want to move on and try exploration. Beleive it or not I have AWU V, BS V and have a ton of lvl V industry and mining skills but did nto do lvl V in Frigate or cruiser on this character.
So I can get into a Buzzard there is my next goal.
EVE > * when it comes to the way you advance.
XP is lame.
This is my Opinion and not that of Black River Industries or any of its members. |
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Sigma Six
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Posted - 2008.04.11 21:22:00 -
[11]
I always wondered - does the "5%" (example) go off the base stats, or does it calculate off the already trained skills?
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Tarminic
Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand
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Posted - 2008.04.11 21:23:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Sigma Six I always wondered - does the "5%" (example) go off the base stats, or does it calculate off the already trained skills?
Base stats only, though I'm not sure if it stacks with other bonuses (damage mods, etc). ---------------- Tarminic - 34 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.81 (Updated 4/8) |
Zeba
Minmatar Pator Tech School
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Posted - 2008.04.11 21:26:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Cloora XP is lame.
Damn strait. I always figured that in eve when you trained then Aura would do a trickle background transfer of the skillbooks contents into your brain regardless of if your online and active or offline and 'sleeping'. Kinda like the way the Matrix movies did it only slower.
Originally by: Malcanis Too many people confuse "Waah, I didn't get my own way" with 'poor customer service'.
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Chooch Chooch
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Posted - 2008.04.11 21:27:00 -
[14]
With that system can you imagine the armor rep you would get on a Hyperion.
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Zeba
Minmatar Pator Tech School
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Posted - 2008.04.11 21:29:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Tarminic
Originally by: Sigma Six I always wondered - does the "5%" (example) go off the base stats, or does it calculate off the already trained skills?
Base stats only, though I'm not sure if it stacks with other bonuses (damage mods, etc).
Skill % points are added to the base and then any mod multiplyers are added just like a damage control so no stacking penalty is involved. Implants are the same with no stacking penalty.
Originally by: Malcanis Too many people confuse "Waah, I didn't get my own way" with 'poor customer service'.
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Lovely Matar
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Posted - 2008.04.11 21:30:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Il Morte The current training system gives no great advantage to train skills to level 5. As it stands a skill level gives an equal boost to all levels, for example turret skills give a 5% boost to each level. So the maximum you can get is a 25% boost. Short of training for a tech 2 item is 5% much of a difference from level 4 to level 5 to warrant the excessive training time. If each level is equal in value shouldn't the total skill points just be split to 5 stages evenly and the time for each level equal as is the boost. An alternative I would rather see is a 5% increase to the boost for that level with the existing training time for example level 1 - 5% level 2 = 10% + 5% for level 1 = 15%, level 3would be 15% + existing 15% = 30% level 4 would be 20% + the existing 30% totaling 50% etc to a maximum level 5 of 75% increase. This in my opinion would explain why it would several weeks to train a skill to level 5 when level 1 took only 35 minutes for the same amount of increase.
Epic fail there...
It's 1.05^5 wich is NOT 1.25..
And as you know, MOSTLY level V 'UNLOCKS' something. And some cases level V has tremendous effect (logistic V)..
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Zifrian
Gallente Gallente Federal Bank Interstellar Corporate Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.11 21:30:00 -
[17]
Originally by: MotherMoon the whole point is to make it faster for new players to catch older players.
every time someone says "YOU'LL NEVER CATCH UP IN EVE" someone always says the same thing, which is in the time an older players gains a 5% increase (30 days) you a newer player can gain about 12 level 4 skills.
Thus older players level up slower than newer players.
If the current system wasn't in place, I probably wouldn't bother playing. I've only played for about 3 months total and I feel like catching up to older players is somewhat doable.
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Letouk Mernel
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Posted - 2008.04.11 21:34:00 -
[18]
You train a skill to level 5 if it's any of the following:
1. It's a prerequisite for another skill / ship / module you want. 2. It's Engineering or Electronics (there's never enough Grid or CPU on any ship).
Otherwise, don't train it to 5. Most people don't. You don't have to have every skill trained. It's the way the game works.
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Verone
Veto Corp
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Posted - 2008.04.11 21:34:00 -
[19]
Besides the fact that some of them are pre-requisites to fly ships or train other skills, training a level 5 skill is something that's reserved for those who want to fully specialise in using a module or ship to it's maximum potential.
In a close fight, that extra 2-5% damage, tracking, armor or whatever, might be the difference between winning a fight or losing an expensive ship.
>>> THE LIFE OF AN OUTLAW - EVE FICTION <<<
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DubanFP
Caldari Four Rings Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.11 21:37:00 -
[20]
Edited by: DubanFP on 11/04/2008 21:41:01
Originally by: Tzar'rim Because those are what makes the difference between a medium SP and a high SP char. currently training for BC5 to get 10% more damage out of my hurricane.
Basically in training Hurricane you go from 150% bonus to damage to a 166.67% bonus in damage "of course that's really .6666 repeating". Big difference. Also it's not about 1 skill to V. It's about many skills to V and many things you need V to unlock. Here i'll do projectile turret skills on of the ships with double damage bonuses for example
Without T2 guns Damage per shot: Projectile Turret V .2 to .25 bonus Surgical Strike V .12 to .15 Ship rank V .2 bonus to .25 bonus
Damage modifier before: 161.3% Damage modifier After: 179.7 Net damage bonus: 11.4%
Rate of Fire Gunnery V .92 to .9 modifier Rapid Firing V .84 to .8 modifier Ship Rank V .8 to .75 modifier
Fire Rate modifier before: 1/.618 = 161.8% base DPS Fire Rate modifier after: 1/.54 = 185.2% base DPS Net damage bonus: 14.5%
Damage bonus * RoF bonus = Net bonus to DPS 1.114 * 1.145 = 1.275
Basically the upgrade to all those skills combined, little by little, combine to an impressive 27.5% boost to damage. That doesn't include the fact that by having several level V skills you can get T2 guns which gain an additional bonus from your specialization skill of 2% per level.
Finally 1 more fact that makes the difference even bigger. All tanks have a point at which they can no longer tank that much DPS. Say you're opponent can tank 100 DPS and you're DPS after resists is 120. So now he's losing about 20 damage per second. Add in that 27.5% boost to make it rise from 120DPS to 153 DPS. Now he's losing 53 hp per second compared to a mear 20. HUGE difference.
Finally remember all the modules & other skills you unlock with lvl V. There's even more, but i'll stop here. _______________
ReiAyanami> We bring you tidings of AARRRRRRRRR |
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Hansoloo
Nomadic Wayfarer Syndicate Carpe Universitas
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Posted - 2008.04.11 21:39:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Hansoloo on 11/04/2008 21:40:51 take it from a very old and high sp toon, there comes to a point where SP does not matter.
There is only so much damage a single ship can do, there are only so many fittings a single ship can do.
The main difference between high SP toons and low SP toons is the amount of things we can do.
A 10m toon that is spec in say AF, will have the same specs and the same level of damage as someone who has 50m sp, if the difference will be so low that it will not matter.
Older players (vets) earned that title through the hard work it took to learn how the game works over the years.
If we gave 2 peoples the same toon, the same skills the same everything.
The first person is someone who has been in eve say 6months and the other say 6 years,
and they do a 1v1 with the same setup the same everything, the 6 year old player will always win. Its not how many skills you have its always about how you play the game. Younger players finds a hard time getting this in there heads.
I started a new toon 2 years ago when the new races came out, ATM it has only 10m SP less than my main who is just under 50m, do I find this funny, no its how I played that char its because I spend the first 2 months training leaning skills. 70% of everyone in eve has poor learning skills and due to this there faced with this questions "how do we catch up to the older players", answer learning skills and implants.
I hope this helps everyone who reads it.
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Zeba
Minmatar Pator Tech School
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Posted - 2008.04.11 21:49:00 -
[22]
Ayup. Never forget to train the learning/Adv skills to at least 4/4 plus a set of +3 implants. Will make your training life much much easier.
Originally by: Malcanis Too many people confuse "Waah, I didn't get my own way" with 'poor customer service'.
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Hansoloo
Nomadic Wayfarer Syndicate Carpe Universitas
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Posted - 2008.04.11 21:53:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Zeba Ayup. Never forget to train the learning/Adv skills to at least 4/4 plus a set of +3 implants. Will make your training life much much easier.
blah that lazy level 4 basic training, no train basics to level 5, then ALL your adv to level 4, then over time (few hrs here and there) train your level adv to level 5 get a + 5 setup of imps or + 4 (+4s are cheap now)
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Zeba
Minmatar Pator Tech School
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Posted - 2008.04.11 22:05:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Hansoloo
Originally by: Zeba Ayup. Never forget to train the learning/Adv skills to at least 4/4 plus a set of +3 implants. Will make your training life much much easier.
blah that lazy level 4 basic training, no train basics to level 5, then ALL your adv to level 4, then over time (few hrs here and there) train your level adv to level 5 get a + 5 setup of imps or + 4 (+4s are cheap now)
That setup I posted is for having near max learning stats in only 7ish days for a new character. Once your starting on your level 5 bs/T2 ship skills then go ahead and finish the basic level 5s and when your going cap ship just plug in the +5 and forget the adv level 5 unless your wanting to train for every races cap ship.
Originally by: Malcanis Too many people confuse "Waah, I didn't get my own way" with 'poor customer service'.
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. The Volition Cult
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Posted - 2008.04.11 22:08:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Il Morte The current training system gives no great advantage to train skills to level 5. As it stands a skill level gives an equal boost to all levels, for example turret skills give a 5% boost to each level. So the maximum you can get is a 25% boost. Short of training for a tech 2 item is 5% much of a difference from level 4 to level 5 to warrant the excessive training time. If each level is equal in value shouldn't the total skill points just be split to 5 stages evenly and the time for each level equal as is the boost. An alternative I would rather see is a 5% increase to the boost for that level with the existing training time for example level 1 - 5% level 2 = 10% + 5% for level 1 = 15%, level 3would be 15% + existing 15% = 30% level 4 would be 20% + the existing 30% totaling 50% etc to a maximum level 5 of 75% increase. This in my opinion would explain why it would several weeks to train a skill to level 5 when level 1 took only 35 minutes for the same amount of increase.
Wild and inaccurate generalisations quoted here.
Some skills give a pretty marginal increase for level 5; others give quite significant ones. Not all of them are obvious, either. And don't forget some attributes are affected by multiple skills. Eg: if you're a passive shield tanker and have your shield ops/management to 4, you will regen at 150% of base. If they're both at 5, you'll regenerate at 167% of base. That's a pretty big difference.
An even more extreme example is Covops 4 + signal acquisition 4 vs 5/5; with skills at 5 you'll probe about 32% faster.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Pang Grohl
Gallente Sudo Corp
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Posted - 2008.04.11 22:32:00 -
[26]
Think of level five of a skill as being a master level of craftsman, or PhD. level scholar. When you are an apprentice craftsman, or university freshman you increase your skill or knowledge in your chosen field rapidly, because there is so much you don't know. As you gain mastery it becomes harder to find areas to improve in and takes longer to hone your expertise. *** Si non adjuvas, noces (If you're not helping, you're hurting)
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Radcjk
Caldari Dark Star LTD Atrocitas
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Posted - 2008.04.11 23:01:00 -
[27]
I usually only train a Skill to 4, unless 5 is a prerequisite for something I want. And ther eis some folly to this train of thought. Yes, its faster in some ways but leads to a jack of all and master of nothing approach over significant time..say years.
I can grauntee you if the opponent is doing 5 % more damage, has 5% more cap, takes 5 % less damage due to resistences, can fit 5% more stuff on his boat that you cant, etc, it really starts to add up over the long run.
Thats before we start throwing in 1-5 % implants as well. Eve is a game of fractions my friend.
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Dyaven
Gallente Soldiers of the Empire
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Posted - 2008.04.11 23:09:00 -
[28]
Your saying it doesn't make sense from an RP perspective, when it actually makes perfect sense. It takes much longer to perfect using something than to just learn how to use it, right? ---- In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move. - The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, Douglas Adams |
Hansoloo
Nomadic Wayfarer Syndicate Carpe Universitas
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Posted - 2008.04.11 23:30:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Zeba
Originally by: Hansoloo
Originally by: Zeba Ayup. Never forget to train the learning/Adv skills to at least 4/4 plus a set of +3 implants. Will make your training life much much easier.
blah that lazy level 4 basic training, no train basics to level 5, then ALL your adv to level 4, then over time (few hrs here and there) train your level adv to level 5 get a + 5 setup of imps or + 4 (+4s are cheap now)
That setup I posted is for having near max learning stats in only 7ish days for a new character. Once your starting on your level 5 bs/T2 ship skills then go ahead and finish the basic level 5s and when your going cap ship just plug in the +5 and forget the adv level 5 unless your wanting to train for every races cap ship.
what the F UCK does cap ships have to do with learning skills. Its about speeding up training times for ALL YOUR SKILLS!
Its has nothing WHAT SO EVER to do with cap ships, I know 80m SP toons who can't even fly cap ships who has max learning.
Look for all you lazy mofos out there, speak to anyone who has been in the game for longer then 2 years and stop asking in the forums.
Train the skill LEARNING TO LEVEL 5!! then basic to level 4, then ADV to level 4 then bascis to level 5. Then you are done for the most part with your learning
do this asap!!!
Over time a few hrs at a time over the next 1 or 2 years, train adv to level 5 (every point helps)
This has nothing to do if you are going to fly this or that, it SPEEDS UP YOUR TRAINING TIME! Simple as that no ifs ands or buts about it.
About all the other level 5's skills train them as you need them. Unless you are doing production, mining, or invention..
Stop lessing to all the kiddys that are still in noob corps.. There called NOOB corps for a reason.
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Stuart Price
Caldari Havoc Inc
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Posted - 2008.04.11 23:31:00 -
[30]
Most of it has been said before so to recap:
Training ONE skill to level 5 is often of limited benefit unless it unlocks something new (ship, mod). Training MULTIPLE skills that affect the same thing to level 5 really does help.
A player with all the gunnery support skills at 5 will be more effective than one with them all at 4 by quite the margin. Similarly a player with all speed related skills at 5 will be considerable faster and more cap efficient than one with them all at 4. The same is true of many other areas.
For an extreme example, there is the Logistics skill. The benefit of training it from 4 to 5 is almost ridiculously good. Conversely there's Jury Rigging which I can't see ANY point in training to 5 (or even 4 for that matter).
It depends not only on the skill being trained, but the related skills in that skillset. "I got soul but I'm not a soldier" |
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