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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
![Moran Trayga Moran Trayga](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1203769773/portrait?size=64)
Moran Trayga
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.04.17 20:50:00 -
[211]
Originally by: Elder Langley Edited by: Elder Langley on 17/04/2008 20:45:57
Originally by: Goumindong It would appear from the outside they were setting monetary policy since they were directly influencing the value of money. It would not appear as if they were spending/taxing all it would be doing is shifting the value of the money.
I do agree with the first part, but I must dissagree with the second part.
When the government collects money it is a tax. They can burn, it spend it, or use it for pillow stuffing it is still a tax.
When the government exchanges money for goods or services it is spending the money that is being given out. Even if the ink on the money isn't dry they are still making a transaction of money to goods/services.
You can (and I hope you do) correct me if I am wrong.
Edit- I do agree with you that ccp is involved in monetary policy by controlling the supply of money.
Except in EVE when taxes are collected, they go poof. They arn't really a tax in the traditional government sense, they don't raise funds for the government. CCP may call them taxes, and they may look like taxes to individuals, but they arn't really taxes. They're just a way to destroy ISK, not a way to redistribute it. - MORAN TRAYGA - |
![Elder Langley Elder Langley](https://images.evetech.net/characters/992402948/portrait?size=64)
Elder Langley
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Posted - 2008.04.17 21:04:00 -
[212]
Unfortunately, this has become a thread based on the third sentence of the OP, and not the topic he started with. Maybe we could argue if there should be some sort of automated ISK transfer and not over how much monetary/fiscal policy there is in game.
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![Finideach Finideach](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1277342381/portrait?size=64)
Finideach
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Posted - 2008.04.17 21:08:00 -
[213]
Edited by: Finideach on 17/04/2008 21:09:34
Quote: Why should everyone else have to deal with trust and data issues but not banks?
Because the automation of transfer of isk is less of a trust issue than it is a tool for large-group management.
Why have Corp or Alliance email when it's just as effective to manually send email to every member of the Corp or Alliance?
Why have the ability to set access levels in Corp Hangars when it's just a matter of trusting all your corp mates?
The banks will still have enormous trust issues to deal with. Do customers trust them to sensibly manage their money and provide the interest rate. Can the bank trust loan applicants to ensure that their investments don't go poof.
Quote: Are the banks not the ones telling us how there is enough trust to sustain their continued growth?
Yes but not the tools to sustain the growth. How big would alliances and corporations get if they had to send an individual email to every member of the organization?
Quote: How can many corporations and alliances have multiple directors and not have the same problems?[Especially when they have much more to lose than other peoples money]
Probably because those corporations and alliances have had tools built into the game to help them run corporations and alliances, from setting of access roles, to communication tools etc.
Tools don't create trust. People create trust. Tools reduce the manual labor of repetitive tasks.
Quote: I don't see...
Quote: I don't see...
Quote: I don't even see... I don't even see...
Can you read what you're writing and realize you're blind when it comes to talking about this topic?
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![Moran Trayga Moran Trayga](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1203769773/portrait?size=64)
Moran Trayga
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.04.17 21:08:00 -
[214]
Originally by: Elder Langley
Originally by: Moran Trayga
Except in EVE when taxes are collected, they go poof. They arn't really a tax in the traditional government sense, they don't raise funds for the government. CCP may call them taxes, and they may look like taxes to individuals, but they arn't really taxes. They're just a way to destroy ISK, not a way to redistribute it.
Right, but is defiantly possible to consider them taxes and the bounties spending. Especially when you look at my example of a print/burn, spend/tax gorvenment above.
It isn't spending though because they're creating money out of nothing in order to pay the bounties. - MORAN TRAYGA - |
![Goumindong Goumindong](https://images.evetech.net/characters/169138120/portrait?size=64)
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.04.18 01:10:00 -
[215]
Originally by: Finideach
Because the automation of transfer of isk is less of a trust issue than it is a tool for large-group management.
Why have Corp or Alliance email when it's just as effective to manually send email to every member of the Corp or Alliance?
Why have the ability to set access levels in Corp Hangars when it's just a matter of trusting all your corp mates?
The banks will still have enormous trust issues to deal with. Do customers trust them to sensibly manage their money and provide the interest rate. Can the bank trust loan applicants to ensure that their investments don't go poof.
Corporations typically do not have a membership of 4. When you start to have 50-60 "employees" you can start to complain about the problems involved in managing a large group of people with a lot of isk.
The analogy between ebank and the mechanics that make large corporations possible is false because ebank is not a large corporation nor anywhere near a large corporation nor is there any indication that it can support the numbers necessary to be a large corporation.
Quote:
Yes but not the tools to sustain the growth. How big would alliances and corporations get if they had to send an individual email to every member of the organization?
As big as they wanted, they would simply create a mailing list for the alliance.
Quote:
Can you read what you're writing and realize you're blind when it comes to talking about this topic?
No, that i cannot see it is because its not there, not because I am blind.
Vote Goumindong for CSM |
![Finideach Finideach](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1277342381/portrait?size=64)
Finideach
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Posted - 2008.04.18 02:28:00 -
[216]
Of course you are right - EBank is not a corporation coordinating 60 individuals. They have over 1000 different customers to deal with.
And you are of course correct as well that the creation of an out of game alliance list in email would solve the corporations challenges - or even websites and forums.
But Eve (as many MMORPGS) being developers of a product who look at what feature set enables users to experience their game with greater ease and convenience thought, hey - that's a neat idea - let's put corporation and alliance email lists into the game, and make it automatically available to any corporation or alliance as a tool to make things easier for them.
I will grant these are not perfect apple to apple comparisons - communication versus money transactions. But the underlying principle of taking an exceedingly manual task and turning it into a more automated one as infrastructure tool is the same.
One thing MMORPGs excel at is suprising and interesting organizations of people around shared activities. Eve is better than most because it supports so many different types of interesting and "niche" types of activities. PvP corps, manufacturing corps, corps that run *****houses and gambling dens, corps that consist of nothing but pirates, assassins, mercenaries or spies. Eve is really not a single majority of anything - but a collection of niche organizations pursuing activities in their own self interest that combine to form player created & maintained content.
The ability to prompt, to some extent, the transfer of isk across a wide population - with a dual confirmation system in game using existing contracts wouldn't just benefit banks but also, depending on implementation, many of the above niches. Corporations could establish payrolls amongst their member of have "war stipends" to offset pvp losses in wardec scenarios. Manufacturing groups would have an easier way of organizing suppliers by simplifying the method of payments. Pirate collectives might streamline the way they loot, salvage, process and distribute the ill-gotten gains. And that's just three off the top of my head.
The neat thing is that players will look at these tools (in combination with the others) and come up with legit uses we haven't even considered yet. That's what happens when you innovate in a free market place and make things simpler/easier to do. As long as there is proper security I don't see that as a bad thing. But then again I'm from the Womack School of Economics.
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![Goumindong Goumindong](https://images.evetech.net/characters/169138120/portrait?size=64)
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.04.18 02:47:00 -
[217]
Originally by: Finideach Of course you are right - EBank is not a corporation coordinating 60 individuals. They have over 1000 different customers to deal with.
No, Ebank has 4 tellers. It does not have 1000 different to coordinate and deal with. There is a significant difference.
Hire another teller. |
![Kazuo Ishiguro Kazuo Ishiguro](https://images.evetech.net/characters/903230203/portrait?size=64)
Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles Zzz
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Posted - 2008.04.18 08:50:00 -
[218]
I suppose they can spread the risk of teller theft as thinly as they like by creating separate corps solely for isk redistribution and giving tellers access to 1 division in 1 corp. They still need a small number of people to provide alts to use as CEOs for said corps, but that's not increasing the risk too much from current levels. My research services Spreadsheets: Top speed calculation - Halo Implant stats |
![Elder Langley Elder Langley](https://images.evetech.net/characters/992402948/portrait?size=64)
Elder Langley
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Posted - 2008.04.18 11:22:00 -
[219]
Hexxx is asking for some tools here.
Imagine this game without the market interface. Sure, you could set up websites, have people order through the IGB, but then you had to contract each sale individually. thousands of orders daily for ships, modules and ammo of varying amounts of each.
Right now you simply put up stacks of items at the appropriate prices and wait for them to sell. You don't need to worry about your 20-30 contractors making errors or simply stealing from you.
The banks need some similar tools, and simply because these tools were created for the banks does not mean that no one else could use them.
Again, I disagree with Hexxx on creating an out of game ISK transfer API, but I think he may have come up with that because how quickly(little work) it would be for ccp compared to an in game fully functioning isk transfer tool.
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![Hexxx Hexxx](https://images.evetech.net/characters/833529338/portrait?size=64)
Hexxx
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.04.18 14:38:00 -
[220]
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Finideach Of course you are right - EBank is not a corporation coordinating 60 individuals. They have over 1000 different customers to deal with.
No, Ebank has 4 tellers. It does not have 1000 different to coordinate and deal with. There is a significant difference.
Hire another teller.
Find me someone I can trust 100% with 15 to 20 billion isk and I will. But you'll need to convince me that I can trust them 100%.
Our risks are severely mitigated all the way up to loan defaults (which are mitigated by security/collateral and/or reputation).
As a side note, if you don't realize the value of reputation, visit the Market Discussions.
Back on topic; risk and cost. Risk increases with the more tellers we bring on due to the fact finding someone with a quality reputation is very hard. Cost arises because of the salary issues we're grappeling with.
Do we plow all our profits back into the Bank and compound our growth? To we reserve some for payment? Do we award bonuses to people? How many loans will default?
You're short sighted to be blunt, as many of the issues discussed here have been debated and discussed ad nauseum elsewhere. I encourage you to engage the whole "why do we need a bank" question over on Market Discussions, it's far more appropriate.
I'm asking for a tool, and the most people can come up with is criticism for a business model that actually works quite well. I'll be raising this issue when our funds grow to 1 trillion and we have more customers than even the largest alliance. |
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![Goumindong Goumindong](https://images.evetech.net/characters/169138120/portrait?size=64)
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.04.18 15:23:00 -
[221]
Originally by: Hexxx
Find me someone I can trust 100% with 15 to 20 billion isk and I will. But you'll need to convince me that I can trust them 100%.
So why do you get special treatment when every other corp and alliance in the game has to trust its directors with much much more isk that has much much more value to them?
Buck up and find someone. |
![Moran Trayga Moran Trayga](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1203769773/portrait?size=64)
Moran Trayga
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.04.18 17:59:00 -
[222]
Originally by: Hexxx Stuff about avoiding the debate.
Well I guess if you can't argue the points it's best just to ignore them and change the subject. I'm a little dissapointed that I spend some time writing a detailed explanation of my views, and with one arrogant foul swoop you disgard this all because you're one of the so called MD elite. Which is a shame because this could have turned into a much more interesting debate. - MORAN TRAYGA - |
![Astria Tiphareth Astria Tiphareth](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1772603467/portrait?size=64)
Astria Tiphareth
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.04.21 11:54:00 -
[223]
So let me get this straight: in an economy where money is injected by a series of random relatively uncoordinated events (mission rewards etc.) and the value of your ISK to an item fluctuates massively depending on current circumstances, in an environment that promotes warfare I hasten to add, you're proposing, nay running, a real-life-style banking system?
The current RL banking system works only because people want their funds to grow but are risk-averse (note how this compares with the rest of EVE):
Bank A has 2000 members, each with 1000 ISK in the bank. It then invests a proportion of the 2 million, thereby no longer actually having that money, in a large range of hopefully stable investments. When these pay off, the bank ends up with more money, and gives you interest as well as lining their own bank balances. Alternatively they don't, the bank crashes and you've lost your 1000 ISK.
Fractional reserve banking just means they lend funds they don't currently have at all! In practice the entire system is deep in debt, banks owing each other money, operating on the assumption that no creditors will ask for all their money back, and that all debtors will pay (with averaging of course). Then sooner or later, someone goes and buys a load of debt in US mortgages and the entire system starts to feel a little shaky.
Sound and robust this does not seem to be. Indeed the current credit crunch highlights just how flaky the existing banking system is. Have a good long read of the following article on banking, which does happen to be from the Austrian School.
The RL banking system is one we all sign up to protect our funds from inflation, a mechanism created by the banks in the first place, to give us the illusion of risk-free investment, at the same time devaluing our savings. It only stays together based on a giant con and a set of Central Banks to try and keep things afloat by managing interest rates.
No, no, and no again. This so-called mature system has no place in EVE. Now if you wanted to set up an Islamic bank, one without interest, where the goals are far more altruistic, then that is entirely different. These EVE banks don't seem to be proposing that. ___ "If you can't debate using logic & fact, and at least recognise other people's point of view, don't waste time posting on forums. It only makes you look like a teenage idiot." |
![Jarne Jarne](https://images.evetech.net/characters/200578687/portrait?size=64)
Jarne
Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations Star Buccaneers
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Posted - 2008.04.21 14:16:00 -
[224]
If you can't handle the workload, hire more people :)
Or give me a way to automate ratting/mining/mission running/market transactions/whatever via the API.
Ah and, can I please get an API call to execute /heal 0 on my opponents in PVP? - Success=Achievements/Expectations
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