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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Hexxx
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.04.14 21:03:00 -
[1]
The Case for Automated API Transfers of ISK
This is an open letter to not just the general player base, but to CCP as well.
Today in EVE, most players store their ISK in their own "wallets" which acts as a personal 100% reserve Bank (with horrible returns) consistent with the Austrian School of thought. However, this is inconsistent with EVE's nature; players should be building and creating not just ships, wars, alliances, and supply chainsàbut financial markets too.
However, these financial markets are inherently limited by the fact EVE doesn't have anything approaching a monetary policy (or even the shadow of one), wide-spread fractional reserve banking or the accompanying loans that come with it, etc. Fiscal policy is certainly there, experienced in the form of taxes and fees, but when it comes to monetary authorityàthere simply isn't one.
In Free Banking, there is a lack of regulation, allowing Banks to practice however they please, each exerting its own flavor of personal monetary policyàbut at least they have one. Right now there are three notable Banks; FuryBank (270+B), BMBE (110+B) and EBANK (400+B) which control in excess of 780 billion isk in funds with another 250 billion in commercial money from loansàbringing the total monetary stock they control to just over 1 trillion isk, or over 1.2% of the known active money supply (M1).
As big as they are, as useful as they are for those who loan from them, as lucrative as they are for their investors/customer...their growth is inherently limited and constrained by CCP's lack of automated ISK transfer functionality. This effectively places a "glass ceiling" for financial institutions and other places of business. Additionally, any significant impact that a Bank could have will always be hampered by their size.
In theory, if enough member Banks cooperated, a Central Bank may be appointed, but this is unlikely due to the EXTREME difficulty in building and running a successful Bank. So, faced with the prospect of a limited number of Banks with a limitation on their potential growthà.we are faced with the prospect of EVE never developing a mature financial system.
Why should you care?
A mature financial system helps people run large businesses, helping to compete against cartels and potentially staving off price fixing. It helps alliances with their own cash flow or corporations fund growth in their industrial arms. A strong and robust economy depends on financial institutions. Bonds and Bank Accounts can serve as a hedge against low to moderate inflation. More subtly, full-reserve banking (which is what all of EVE practices now with) means that during periods of high demand for money, the prices of other goods must fall, the economy will bear costs that are (in principle) no different from those it would bear during periods of moderate inflation.
It doesn't matter if you mine rocks, blow things up, or sort exotic dancers in alphabetical order; a mature financial market is good for you, good for the economy, and good for EVE.
Director | www.eve-bank.net
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Mr Horizontal
Gallente KIA Corp KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.14 21:08:00 -
[2]
The ISK must flow!
Director | www.eve-bank.net |
Hansoloo
Nomadic Wayfarer Syndicate Carpe Universitas
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Posted - 2008.04.14 21:11:00 -
[3]
100% agree! very good post.
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Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.14 21:15:00 -
[4]
Could you sum up, for the hard of thinking (me), what exactly you are proposing? What would this "Automated API Transfer" do?
And in any case, the major reason for EVE's obvious lack of banking and financial services is the trust issue. Theres no reason at all that a bank manage (as has happened before) won't just transfer as much balance has he has access to in to his own wallet and run for the hills, or that someone won't just take a loan and never pay you a penny back.
In real life, this is countered by severe consequences- bankruptcy, bailiffs taking all of your property away, and even prison for outright fraudsters. This is more than enough to stop most people committing major fraud. In EVE, what can you do? Pod them? Declare war on them? Nothing really has much consequence in the long run, so there'll be plenty of people who will go criminal. While that is the case, no RL-style financial services can really flourish beyond the very most basic. ------
Originally by: Dark Shikari The problem with killing Jesus is he always just respawns 3 days later anyways. |
Robacz
Essence Trade Essence Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.04.14 21:17:00 -
[5]
Automated API Transfers of ISK... not sure what you are asking for? Ability to do transfers without logging into game, via API?
API should be always only for reading data. Any ingame action must be always done by player, not by external software.
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2008.04.14 21:21:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Robacz API should be always only for reading data. Any ingame action must be always done by player, not by external software.
There already exists out of game external software isk transaction capabilities. It is used very heavily every day by many people. The sky hasn't fallen from this. It's known as GTC sales. Other than that, as a member of the board of directors at eBank, I support what Hexxx has said.
To Shar -verb: 1 - To say what you mean. 2 - To say what it means. 3 - To say something mean.
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Hexxx
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.04.14 21:22:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Robacz Automated API Transfers of ISK... not sure what you are asking for? Ability to do transfers without logging into game, via API?
API should be always only for reading data. Any ingame action must be always done by player, not by external software.
That is EXACTLY what I'm suggesting. Banks are inherently limited on the number of withdraws they can process manually because of the very fact it's a manual exercise.
Director | www.eve-bank.net
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Dr Clark
Universal Transportation Solutions
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Posted - 2008.04.14 21:23:00 -
[8]
Im probley going to get shot down hard, but here is my thoughts.
Form a Security and Exchange commssion. This would be formed by 1 member from each bank who hold a min of 50 Billion isk in public funds. They would be responible for regulating the banks, possibly setting a min intrest rate and such. I belive that CCP should also take a part in this and help Grantee the isk that the public has invested into these banks.
my 2 cents
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Robacz
Essence Trade Essence Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.04.14 21:27:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Shar Tegral
Originally by: Robacz API should be always only for reading data. Any ingame action must be always done by player, not by external software.
There already exists out of game external software isk transaction capabilities. It is used very heavily every day by many people. The sky hasn't fallen from this. It's known as GTC sales. Other than that, as a member of the board of directors at eBank, I support what Hexxx has said.
Well to pay for GTC you have to sign-in in your Eve Online account and authorize transfer from there. Out of game - yes, out of CCP's software - no. Besides it serves one specific purpose.
Let me rephrase my statement: no 3rd party software should be ever allowed to perform any ingame actions.
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Hexxx
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.04.14 21:28:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Patch86 Could you sum up, for the hard of thinking (me), what exactly you are proposing? What would this "Automated API Transfer" do?
And in any case, the major reason for EVE's obvious lack of banking and financial services is the trust issue. Theres no reason at all that a bank manage (as has happened before) won't just transfer as much balance has he has access to in to his own wallet and run for the hills, or that someone won't just take a loan and never pay you a penny back.
In real life, this is countered by severe consequences- bankruptcy, bailiffs taking all of your property away, and even prison for outright fraudsters. This is more than enough to stop most people committing major fraud. In EVE, what can you do? Pod them? Declare war on them? Nothing really has much consequence in the long run, so there'll be plenty of people who will go criminal. While that is the case, no RL-style financial services can really flourish beyond the very most basic.
Your arguement is that they cannot flourish, yet we have three Banks with hundreds and hundreds of billions in funds and two stock exchanges for a total market capitalization of 3 trillion (if you want to count the exchanges), not to mention about 250+ billion in loans (a rough ballpark guess based on what I read of the last reports for BMBE and FuryBank)
I'm not sure how much more proof you require.
That said, let me remind you that fractional reserve Banking prevents the total sum of all funds from being in a single place at a single time....this helps us limit the exposure of our own Banks funds. Diversify available funds across three tellers as well and you've mitigated alot of your risk.
I can't speak for the other Banks, but I know that EBANK has a 27 billion isk surplus set aside for defaults or "money trouble" and we have the ability to loan from a few wealthy backers should we need it.
The markets are healthy, they are robust, and they SHOULD grow. That growth is limited by the degree of which CCP decides to accept the Banks, Exchanges, etc that they have left for the players to create (in the absence of CCP creating them).
Director | www.eve-bank.net
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Hexxx
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.04.14 21:31:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Robacz
Let me rephrase my statement: no 3rd party software should be ever allowed to perform any ingame actions.
Explain more....you've stated a position, you'll need to follow through on it.
Director | www.eve-bank.net
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Bish Ounen
Gallente Omni-Core Freedom Fighters Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2008.04.14 21:31:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Bish Ounen on 14/04/2008 21:34:57 Edited by: Bish Ounen on 14/04/2008 21:34:29
Originally by: Robacz Automated API Transfers of ISK... not sure what you are asking for? Ability to do transfers without logging into game, via API?
API should be always only for reading data. Any ingame action must be always done by player, not by external software.
Agreed. I'm sure that CCP Devs will agree, allowing software outside of CCP's control (IE: 3rd party software developed on the EvE API) to not only read EvE Data but also to WRITE to the EvE servers is a recipe for absolute DISASTER.
Now, a "Banking" Interface written with input from the more financially inclined among us would be a nice addition, and might allow some of the more advanced financial dealings that the Op is requesting. But 3rd party stuff writing to EvE servers?
NO WAY.
EDIT:
Just a note, the ETC -> ISK Transfer is run from CCP's own servers. IE: It is under their control. Software running OUTSIDE CCP controlled servers and NOT written by CCP should never ever ever be allowed to write to the server. Allowing that opens the door to any number of hack attempts, privacy violations, and potential real-life thefts. Let's just not go there. Mmmkay?
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Robacz
Essence Trade Essence Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.04.14 21:32:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Hexxx
Originally by: Robacz Automated API Transfers of ISK... not sure what you are asking for? Ability to do transfers without logging into game, via API?
API should be always only for reading data. Any ingame action must be always done by player, not by external software.
That is EXACTLY what I'm suggesting. Banks are inherently limited on the number of withdraws they can process manually because of the very fact it's a manual exercise.
Well everyone is limited by game client's abilities in their endeavors. You need API ISK tranfers for more effective work, producer needs API jobs installation, traders needs API market updates...
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Daallie
Dynasty Corporation
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Posted - 2008.04.14 21:33:00 -
[14]
Firstly lets try to stay on topic we are not talking about forming any trust system but are trying to make banking truely possible in EVE. With an API based system of isk transfer (probably requiring a little more than the current system like password to do more than view info) we would see banks begin to florish as withdrawals become immediate and automated like real life banks.
Originally by: Robacz Automated API Transfers of ISK... not sure what you are asking for? Ability to do transfers without logging into game, via API?
API should be always only for reading data. Any ingame action must be always done by player, not by external software.
There is very little human interaction in the movement of money today. You can withdraw, deposit, transfer, money without any person having to be in an office somewhere or any human requiring to approve something. Complete automation is key in an sucessful banking system so why should we keep ourselves so limited in EVE. Dynasty Corporation |
Daallie
Dynasty Corporation
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Posted - 2008.04.14 21:38:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Bish Ounen
Originally by: Robacz Automated API Transfers of ISK... not sure what you are asking for? Ability to do transfers without logging into game, via API?
API should be always only for reading data. Any ingame action must be always done by player, not by external software.
Agreed. I'm sure that CCP Devs will agree, allowing software outside of CCP's control (IE: 3rd party software developed on the EvE API) to not only read EvE Data but also to WRITE to the EvE servers is a recipe for absolute DISASTER.
Now, a "Banking" Interface written with input from the more financially inclined among us would be a nice addition, and might allow some of the more advanced financial dealings that the Op is requesting. But 3rd party stuff writing to EvE servers?
NO WAY.
Well it would not be direct access to the servers. The API system is not even direct access to the servers. It is really just sending a request to eve servers that are then processed and such. Exactly the same way as any online banking system is actually run (Bank website funds transfer from savings to checking, sends a request the servers, servers do required logs and confirmation of funds, and then makes the transfer.) There is not really an issue of web security its more of a matter of how much CCP wants to expand their isk transfer system beyond GTC. Dynasty Corporation |
Mr Horizontal
Gallente KIA Corp KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.14 21:38:00 -
[16]
This has generated some confusion. ISK is never really taken in or out of the game. It's always held in a wallet of some description. With a GTC, the buyer has his ISK taken out of his wallet and into someone elses, with a code that verifies the transaction.
We are asking the ability for 3rd party software to give money from one player to another in game, but triggered externally.
Director | www.eve-bank.net |
sg3s
Caldari O.W.N. Corp United Freemen Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.14 21:41:00 -
[17]
I smell someone with a good sense of buisness... and a plan when this comes in to eve. lol
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Robacz
Essence Trade Essence Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.04.14 21:43:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Daallie
There is very little human interaction in the movement of money today. You can withdraw, deposit, transfer, money without any person having to be in an office somewhere or any human requiring to approve something. Complete automation is key in an sucessful banking system so why should we keep ourselves so limited in EVE.
I am not against automated banking. If CCP ever introduce banking tools in Eve Online client, I guess some kind of automation would be nice. Right now, there is no banking support in the client. It is all happening out of game, via 3rd party websites.
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Trathen
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Posted - 2008.04.14 21:43:00 -
[19]
Can of worms, I am afraid.
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Robacz
Essence Trade Essence Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.04.14 21:47:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Mr Horizontal This has generated some confusion. ISK is never really taken in or out of the game. It's always held in a wallet of some description. With a GTC, the buyer has his ISK taken out of his wallet and into someone elses, with a code that verifies the transaction.
We are asking the ability for 3rd party software to give money from one player to another in game, but triggered externally.
Well then I am asking the ability for 3rd party software to update my market orders. Becouse updating them in game is too much work, like transferring ISK for your bank. Where it would end? There is a lot of annoying tasks that slow down various businesses. Should we let them all be automated via external software?
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Hexxx
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.04.14 21:47:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Daallie
Well it would not be direct access to the servers. The API system is not even direct access to the servers. It is really just sending a request to eve servers that are then processed and such. Exactly the same way as any online banking system is actually run (Bank website funds transfer from savings to checking, sends a request the servers, servers do required logs and confirmation of funds, and then makes the transfer.) There is not really an issue of web security its more of a matter of how much CCP wants to expand their isk transfer system beyond GTC.
This is very much how I would imagine something like this would work.
Perhaps it could even cache and then process all the requests in a single large batch during downtime in order to reduce server load?
Director | www.eve-bank.net
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Hexxx
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.04.14 21:55:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Robacz
Originally by: Mr Horizontal This has generated some confusion. ISK is never really taken in or out of the game. It's always held in a wallet of some description. With a GTC, the buyer has his ISK taken out of his wallet and into someone elses, with a code that verifies the transaction.
We are asking the ability for 3rd party software to give money from one player to another in game, but triggered externally.
Well then I am asking the ability for 3rd party software to update my market orders. Becouse updating them in game is too much work, like transferring ISK for your bank. Where it would end? There is a lot of annoying tasks that slow down various businesses. Should we let them all be automated via external software?
I understand EXACTLY what you mean. You're describing a "slippery slope."
The thing of it is, ISK transfers are mindless. With orders there is more thought involved and hence, more danger in automation.
ISK transfers on the other hand have a much lower impact in and of themselves. With Banks allowed to scale up more, the real impact will be from their increased size and ability to focus on strategy and other aspects of operations, such as loan approvals.
Director | www.eve-bank.net
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John Grimm
Amarr Rendili StarDrive Yards
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Posted - 2008.04.14 21:59:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Trathen Can of worms, I am afraid.
Thats an understatement, more like a truck full of worms.
I complietly and utterly DISAGREE with the OP. Are you barking MAD
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Marcus Druallis
Quantum Industries RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.14 22:01:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Shar Tegral
Originally by: Robacz API should be always only for reading data. Any ingame action must be always done by player, not by external software.
There already exists out of game external software isk transaction capabilities. It is used very heavily every day by many people. The sky hasn't fallen from this. It's known as GTC sales. Other than that, as a member of the board of directors at eBank, I support what Hexxx has said.
Negative. All they are are promises to sell and transfer isk once ingame. That is all. --
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.04.14 22:05:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Hexxx The Case for Automated API Transfers of ISK
Just because you use a bunch of fancy words, does not make it an argument. It especially doesn't make it right.
The Austrian method of economics has nothing to do with players holding reserves. The Austrian method of economics says that all theory should be derived from deduction around various axioms. Unless you are going to come in here and say that statistics is a bunch of hogwash then the Austrian school has nothing to do with your argument.
Then you go on to say that the financial markets are limited by eve not having a monetary policy[it does], or having monetary authority[it does]. Their growth is not limited by abilities to make automatic isk transfers, only by the institutions reputation.
All of these actions can be figured by the player banks if they want. Why they wont is a question of necessity[because of the heavy financial regulation it isn't necessary and who wants to oversee it, and how are they going to regulate the money supply when there is already a built in money supply regulator?]
The rest of the it...
Quote:
A mature financial system helps people run large businesses, helping to compete against cartels and potentially staving off price fixing. It helps alliances with their own cash flow or corporations fund growth in their industrial arms. A strong and robust economy depends on financial institutions. Bonds and Bank Accounts can serve as a hedge against low to moderate inflation. More subtly, full-reserve banking (which is what all of EVE practices now with) means that during periods of high demand for money, the prices of other goods must fall, the economy will bear costs that are (in principle) no different from those it would bear during periods of moderate inflation.
1. Cartels, price fixing are good things for the game. Hell, the game lacks mechanics[essentially it regulates who you cant sell to] that need to be implemented before these things can come about. The point of a game is for people to have fun, not to make stuff. The game is not here to simulate a robust economy, but to simulate an anarchy with waring parties dealing damage in whatever way they can
2. A strong and robust economy does not rely on financial institutions. A strong and robust economy which has large barriers to entry relies on financial institutions. But with low barriers to entry, people and organizations don't need loans. Technically, since less more people own their own production there is less risk and just as much production which makes the economy better than a typical strong and robust economy. There is very little in eve you will need a loan for, ergo, there is very little need for financial institutions.
3. Owning debt and lending can serve as hedges against inflation, but there is no inflation, and there is no inflation because the money supply is tightly regulated so as to not have inflation. You don't have to worry about it since there are no periods of high demand for money since there are easy ways to change between stuff and isk and back again if there are any time when there is high demand for money.
Vote Goumindong for CSM |
Marcus Druallis
Quantum Industries RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.14 22:08:00 -
[26]
Also, you mention all of these banks and all that they are doing? Where is there information about all of this? --
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Dr Clark
Universal Transportation Solutions
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Posted - 2008.04.14 22:17:00 -
[27]
If u check in the forums under Market Dicussion in the forums near the bottom you will see. As far as I know there are 4.
BMBE E-Bank Fury Bank Dysnaty Bank
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Jmanis Catharg
Caldari Stickler inc
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Posted - 2008.04.14 22:24:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Marcus Druallis Also, you mention all of these banks and all that they are doing? Where is there information about all of this?
Amazing how many think GD and CAOD are the only forums around here,,,
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Lord Evangelian
Gallente The White Mantle
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Posted - 2008.04.14 22:33:00 -
[29]
sorry but I dont understand....? I think he wants ISK BANKING to be a profession.... --------------------
The White Mantle |
Fifth Horseman
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Posted - 2008.04.14 22:44:00 -
[30]
I presume when they put this ka-jigger together they realised that RL money is as much a myth as ISK value is. Since when did the RL fractional reserve accounting system do anybody except a very few people any favours at all? Just because it's the system that got co-erced onto us, despite great efforts by a few good men, doesn't mean it's any good. People just wanted to trade for horse shoes without having to kill a goat every single time, money was great for that until people realised interest can be used as co-ercion.
All this system does is create slavery, with the slaves conveniently separated from the slave masters just enough to not notice they are slaves, and the sooner people realise it and tell the banks to sod off with the interest charges the better off we'll all be.
I wouldn't call Fractional Reserve Accounting with inbuilt slavery mature at all, I'd call it exploitative, unnecessary and completely unworkable since you won't be in control of the money supply anyway, not while missions exist.
Since by your figures you've got 1.2% of the Eve economy, you're still small fry, but it sounds like your aspirations are no less worrying than the usual suspects.
--- Boring & Banal. Just how CCP like it. |
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