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Krixtal Icefluxor
Bison - Ammatar Thunder
Thundering Herd
354
   |
Posted - 2012.02.29 12:39:00 -
[31] - Quote
Alyssa SaintCroix wrote:
Not too keen on the idea of stealing them. I was thinking more like, flagging towers for a two or four week duration allowing the corp or whomever to pull it down or put it back online. After the grace period expires, YAMMER YAMMER YAMMER YAMMER....................................
WAY too nice on these guys.
Now, off with you to take down ALL your unused Towers. Sheesh.........................
OMG He Spent His Free-áAURUM !
God is simply-áthe very extraordinary power of the Universe to organize Itself as percieved.
-á-á- Lee Smolin "Three Roads to Quantum Gravity" |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
252
|
Posted - 2012.02.29 12:51:00 -
[32] - Quote
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:Alyssa SaintCroix wrote:
Not too keen on the idea of stealing them. I was thinking more like, flagging towers for a two or four week duration allowing the corp or whomever to pull it down or put it back online. After the grace period expires, YAMMER YAMMER YAMMER YAMMER....................................
WAY too nice on these guys. Now, off with you to take down ALL your unused Towers. Sheesh.........................
I'd probably allow a grace period after fuel runs out, before [stuff] happens. Just not a long one. maybe a week or two.
FuzzWork Enterprises
http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/
Blueprint calculator and other 'useful' utilities. |
Velicitia
Open Designs
692
|
Posted - 2012.02.29 13:46:00 -
[33] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:Alyssa SaintCroix wrote:
Not too keen on the idea of stealing them. I was thinking more like, flagging towers for a two or four week duration allowing the corp or whomever to pull it down or put it back online. After the grace period expires, YAMMER YAMMER YAMMER YAMMER....................................
WAY too nice on these guys. Now, off with you to take down ALL your unused Towers. Sheesh......................... I'd probably allow a grace period after fuel runs out, before [stuff] happens. Just not a long one. maybe a week or two.
as long as the set of stuff includes "other players can steal the tower and/or modules without having to resort to wardecs/diplomacy" (i.e. they can steal it)
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Krixtal Icefluxor
Bison - Ammatar Thunder
Thundering Herd
354
|
Posted - 2012.02.29 14:38:00 -
[34] - Quote
Velicitia wrote:Steve Ronuken wrote:Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:Alyssa SaintCroix wrote:
Not too keen on the idea of stealing them. I was thinking more like, flagging towers for a two or four week duration allowing the corp or whomever to pull it down or put it back online. After the grace period expires, YAMMER YAMMER YAMMER YAMMER....................................
WAY too nice on these guys. Now, off with you to take down ALL your unused Towers. Sheesh......................... I'd probably allow a grace period after fuel runs out, before [stuff] happens. Just not a long one. maybe a week or two. as long as the set of stuff includes "other players can steal the tower and/or modules without having to resort to wardecs/diplomacy" (i.e. they can steal it)
I'm WANTING the 5 True Sansha Larges sitting here idle, offline, in my home system...........
There are at least 15 others idle. More than are onlined in system tbh. Guess who owns most idles ? That's right. Goons.
OMG He Spent His Free-áAURUM !
God is simply-áthe very extraordinary power of the Universe to organize Itself as percieved.
-á-á- Lee Smolin "Three Roads to Quantum Gravity" |
Jastra
Black Thorne Corporation
Black Thorne Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2012.02.29 17:05:00 -
[35] - Quote
Surely an abandoned tower with no shields ought to be salvageable with a salvager. At least this would make it a viable in game profession as well as clearing the VAST number of moons with dead POS's on them (Juujatsi or something, I checked and about 30% of the large number of moons had an unshielded POS- so good iskies for a salvager!! |
Krixtal Icefluxor
Bison - Ammatar Thunder
Thundering Herd
354
|
Posted - 2012.02.29 18:59:00 -
[36] - Quote
Jastra wrote:Surely an abandoned tower with no shields ought to be salvageable with a salvager. At least this would make it a viable in game profession as well as clearing the VAST number of moons with dead POS's on them (Juujatsi or something, I checked and about 30% of the large number of moons had an unshielded POS- so good iskies for a salvager!!
That Tower must be a wreck first. Good Luck.
OMG He Spent His Free-áAURUM !
God is simply-áthe very extraordinary power of the Universe to organize Itself as percieved.
-á-á- Lee Smolin "Three Roads to Quantum Gravity" |
Revolution Rising
Gentlemen of Better Ilk
79
|
Posted - 2012.02.29 19:04:00 -
[37] - Quote
Linda Shadowborn wrote:Steve Ronuken wrote:Didn't scrapyard bob run the numbers, and find it was cheaper for small poses, regardless of how much CPU and PG you used to use?
Due to things like smaller volumes of robotics being used? yupp
Lies.
It used to cost 50m a month for a small, 100m for a medium and around 200m for a large.
Pos prices increased with PI being added to the game by about 20-30%.
The latest POS fuel blocks increased it again by astronomical figures.
I still have mails from Lady Patricia a pos fuel deliverer (really great btw) where my large empire POS was costing me 260m delivered - after PI was added.
Price now: 460m - market prices.
Small pos fuel costs went up just the same.
How can anyone say it went down?
Manufacturing Papercuts
***CSM Interstellar Debate - Mining Profession**
|
Velicitia
Open Designs
695
|
Posted - 2012.02.29 19:08:00 -
[38] - Quote
Revolution Rising wrote:Linda Shadowborn wrote:Steve Ronuken wrote:Didn't scrapyard bob run the numbers, and find it was cheaper for small poses, regardless of how much CPU and PG you used to use?
Due to things like smaller volumes of robotics being used? yupp Lies. It used to cost 50m a month for a small, 100m for a medium and around 200m for a large. Pos prices increased with PI being added to the game by about 20-30%. The latest POS fuel blocks increased it again by astronomical figures. I still have mails from Lady Patricia a pos fuel deliverer (really great btw) where my large empire POS was costing me 260m delivered - after PI was added. Price now: 460m - market prices. Small pos fuel costs went up just the same. How can anyone say it went down?
and when were these mails from? |
Laura Marhsal
Pure Steel Inc.
14
|
Posted - 2012.02.29 22:05:00 -
[39] - Quote
Sidrat Flush wrote:Can we get pos's that haven't been fueled for more than 30 days to go boom like the jet cans?
Pretty please?
even better anyone can take them down and sell them! |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
728
|
Posted - 2012.03.01 05:35:00 -
[40] - Quote
Alyssa SaintCroix wrote:
Not too keen on the idea of stealing them. I was thinking more like, flagging towers for a two or four week duration allowing the corp or whomever to pull it down or put it back online. After the grace period expires, have mini events where local pirate factions take over the tower, apply a bounty to the tower and rats hanging around (based on security status perhaps) and then allow people to salvage the tower wreck for the parts required to make one -- the larger the tower the more parts with faction towers giving the best.
The problem with that is if you bring people into your corp, who don't have the faction standings to keep your corp standings high - you have to kick all the slackers out in order to re-anchor. Which, in hi-sec, means that a lot of corps go ahead and anchor spare towers at other moons - but leave them offline until needed.
Numbers... lots of numbers...
Costs for towers (back on July 11 2011) were:
112M small, 183M medium, 327M large - The small towers were about 1/3 the cost per month of a large tower due to the way the old fuel math worked out. Medium towers were about 55-60% of a large tower per month. Note these numbers assume you used your full load of PG/CPU.
LOz was 360 ISK/u, HW was 22.80 ISK/u back then. Isotopes for that quote were 560 ISK/u. (The rest you can figure out by looking at the market graphs.)
October 2011 costs (start of the Gallente ice interdiction), millions of ISK per 30 days, assuming full PG/CPU usage:
Amarr: 151 / 231 / 392
Caldari: 158 / 245 / 421
Gallente: 190 / 310 / 549
Minmatar: 174 / 276 / 482
Note that under the old HW costs (20-30 ISK/u), HW costs were only 2-3M ISK per month for a large tower, and LOz costs were about 20-24M ISK. So even if you weren't using your full load of LOz, you were only saving 15-20M/mo. If you weren't using all of your HW per month, you were saving a trivial amount.
Feb 29 2012 fuel prices (assuming that you purchase the inputs, and manufacture the blocks yourself):
Amarr: 88 / 175 / 348 - 12072 ISK/u
Caldari: 104 / 205 / 408 - 14164 ISK/u
Gallente: 98 / 193 / 385 - 13353 ISK/u
Minmatar: 101 / 200 / 398 - 13808 ISK/u
Under the old fueling system (assuming full PG/CPU usage):
Amarr: 128 / 209 / 373
Caldari: 145 / 243 / 440
Gallente: 139 / 230 / 414
Minmatar: 142 / 237 / 429
Large towers got somewhat cheaper or broke even depending on LOz usage, medium towers got cheaper, small towers got a *lot* cheaper. Now a small tower is almost exactly 1/4 the cost per month of a large tower, and a medium is almost exactly 1/2 the cost of a large.
|
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
257
|
Posted - 2012.03.01 11:19:00 -
[41] - Quote
If the Corp is active, all they would need to do to keep the tower from going pop, is drop fuel into it, every so often. Enough to run it for an hour.
That would reset the timer; hence the 2 week/month before a tower being offline makes it vulnerable to [stuff]
Yes, it bumps their costs a little. I have no problem with that.
FuzzWork Enterprises
http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/
Blueprint calculator and other 'useful' utilities. |
Krixtal Icefluxor
Bison - Ammatar Thunder
Thundering Herd
355
|
Posted - 2012.03.01 15:24:00 -
[42] - Quote
Revolution Rising wrote:
Small pos fuel costs went up just the same.
How can anyone say it went down?
Yuppers.
And no 'saving fuel' anymore by offlining Mods and Arrays, etc. Uses MAX FUEL 24/7
OMG He Spent His Free-áAURUM !
God is simply-áthe very extraordinary power of the Universe to organize Itself as percieved.
-á-á- Lee Smolin "Three Roads to Quantum Gravity" |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
731
|
Posted - 2012.03.01 15:48:00 -
[43] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:If the Corp is active, all they would need to do to keep the tower from going pop, is drop fuel into it, every so often. Enough to run it for an hour.
Or maybe a reduced consumption mode, where it burns 1/2/4 blocks per hour (and 1 charter/hr in hi-sec) but supplies zero PG/CPU, which keeps it from being un-anchored.
It would mean a cost of about 40M/mo to keep a large tower spare hanging around, but would enforce active ownership of the tower.
And it might not be that difficult to code.
|
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
57
|
Posted - 2012.03.02 18:14:00 -
[44] - Quote
Jastra wrote:Surely an abandoned tower with no shields ought to be salvageable with a salvager. At least this would make it a viable in game profession as well as clearing the VAST number of moons with dead POS's on them (Juujatsi or something, I checked and about 30% of the large number of moons had an unshielded POS- so good iskies for a salvager!!
Or a new skill that allows control tower hacking. I'm thinking prerequisites Hacking 5, Anchoring 5, and maybe Starbase Defense Management 5, new skill could be Starbase Security Override. Once you hack through the security you can unanchor, steal contents, etc. Could even make higher levels needed for larger towers. Level 5 for faction towers. |
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
57
|
Posted - 2012.03.02 19:33:00 -
[45] - Quote
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:Revolution Rising wrote:
Small pos fuel costs went up just the same.
How can anyone say it went down?
Yuppers. And no 'saving fuel' anymore by offlining Mods and Arrays, etc. Uses MAX FUEL 24/7
A small tower used to burn 33% as much fuel as a large tower. They now burn 25% of the fuel that a large tower uses. Combine that with the slight changes to volumes of fuel components per 40 block run with what a large tower, even with only 50% PG/CPU use the over all fuel cost is lower. Maybe not in isk as with the PI changes many of the fuel materials cost more. but ignoring the price increase of PI products which would have raised POS fuel costs without the fuel block conversion. The over all fuel consumption is less. Even considering the fuel savings from offlining modules. unless you off lined everything in which case why use a large tower.
Small towers got this benefit plus the benefit of reducing fuel requirements from 33% of a large tower down to 25% which makes them way cheaper to run now. Heavy Water is extremely cheap and Liquid Ozone consumption was so low on a small tower that the fuel savings from offlining modules was minimal as they could not support many modules. |
Krixtal Icefluxor
Bison - Ammatar Thunder
Thundering Herd
359
|
Posted - 2012.03.02 20:43:00 -
[46] - Quote
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:Revolution Rising wrote:
Small pos fuel costs went up just the same.
How can anyone say it went down?
Yuppers. And no 'saving fuel' anymore by offlining Mods and Arrays, etc. Uses MAX FUEL 24/7 A small tower used to burn 33% as much fuel as a large tower. They now burn 25% of the fuel that a large tower uses. Combine that with the slight changes to volumes of fuel components per 40 block run with what a large tower, even with only 50% PG/CPU use the over all fuel cost is lower. Maybe not in isk as with the PI changes many of the fuel materials cost more. but ignoring the price increase of PI products which would have raised POS fuel costs without the fuel block conversion. The over all fuel consumption is less. Even considering the fuel savings from offlining modules. unless you off lined everything in which case why use a large tower. Small towers got this benefit plus the benefit of reducing fuel requirements from 33% of a large tower down to 25% which makes them way cheaper to run now. Heavy Water is extremely cheap and Liquid Ozone consumption was so low on a small tower that the fuel savings from offlining modules was minimal as they could not support many modules.
I'm too lazy and tired to crunch numbers, but I do know I'm using a heck of a lot more fuel in the same Medium Tower (not small) than I ever have. And I've always 'generated' my own fuel.
Not really that important. It's just a "Welcome to EVE Online" Thing for me at this point. 
OMG He Spent His Free-áAURUM !
God is simply-áthe very extraordinary power of the Universe to organize Itself as percieved.
-á-á- Lee Smolin "Three Roads to Quantum Gravity" |
Salcon Cliff
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
37
|
Posted - 2012.03.02 21:36:00 -
[47] - Quote
In the old model, the Sm POS used 1 robotics an hour. In the new fuel system, it uses 0.25 robotics and hour. At 50k per robo, that is 27m less than before fuel blocks.
The small tower now uses 1 less mech part (savings of about 2.5 mil per month) and two less O2 (a 100k savings or so).
So, requirement-wise, on the PI side of things, you save around 30 mil from what it would have cost to use the old fuels (small towers)
Now, lets assume you used NO grid or cpu. Your monthly non-iso water cost is 37.5 x 400 +37.5 * 90 (ozone and HW, respectively) x 24 x 30, or about 13.2 mil.
The decrease in PI is about 17 mil more than the increase in water product cost, and that is based on a NO GRid/CPU scenario.
If your cost is going up, it is probably because you are paying a premium for fuel.
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TravisWB
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
19
|
Posted - 2012.03.04 14:37:00 -
[48] - Quote
Well I guess the real problem to this POS nerf has only been touched once or twice in this thread and the problem is that hisec PI has been nerfed so bad that it is pointless to waste time doing it.
Cheap and easy PI fuel components are what made the small hobby POS' possible in the first place and CCP has taken that away.
I haven't wasted the time to figure out what the F is wrong with the Ice mining part of the equation but something is screwy there too.
This game is being run by those that dwell in null and what happens in Empire is intentionally being nerfed to the detriment of those of us that intend to never go to null and only rarely visit lowsec.
The entry point of the game is getting harder, less rewarding and less interesting.
Good moves CCP. 
|
Wolodymyr
Breaking Ambitions
66
|
Posted - 2012.03.04 19:52:00 -
[49] - Quote
The only reason you are getting away with running an undefended POS in highsec is because you know for a fact it won't get shot, and then have a 24 hour window to put up guns when a wardeck happens.
It's not eh fuel blocks that are the problem, it's the wardeck mechanics that allow people to set up anything undefended in eve. |
Velicitia
Open Designs
722
|
Posted - 2012.03.04 20:01:00 -
[50] - Quote
Wolodymyr wrote:
It's not eh fuel blocks that are the problem, it's the wardeck mechanics that allow people to set up anything undefended in eve.
at least in hisec. TBH, once the fuel blocks went live, I just turned on the tower's guns to burn the extra PG... not that they're really "needed" in HS (seriously, a few hardeners and no one wants to shoot it for some reason ) |
Krixtal Icefluxor
Bison - Ammatar Thunder
Thundering Herd
361
|
Posted - 2012.03.05 11:19:00 -
[51] - Quote
TravisWB wrote:This game is being run by those that dwell in null and what happens in Empire is intentionally being nerfed to the detriment of those of us that intend to never go to null and only rarely visit lowsec. The entry point of the game is getting harder, less rewarding and less interesting. Good moves CCP.
Yeah. NullBears can get a Storyline reward of a 875,000,000 Mining Forman Mindlink.....and they say "INCURSIONS PAY TOO MUCH".
And who was the Forum Idiot claiming you could make 120,000,000 an hour Lvl IV Missioning yesterday in GD ? Sheesh...................
OMG He Spent His Free-áAURUM !
God is simply-áthe very extraordinary power of the Universe to organize Itself as percieved.
-á-á- Lee Smolin "Three Roads to Quantum Gravity" |
Tamiya Sarossa
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
164
|
Posted - 2012.03.05 15:50:00 -
[52] - Quote
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Yeah. NullBears can get a Storyline reward of a 875,000,000 Mining Forman Mindlink.....and they say "INCURSIONS PAY TOO MUCH".
And who was the Forum Idiot claiming you could make 120,000,000 an hour Lvl IV Missioning yesterday in GD ? Sheesh...................
That storyline is offered in highsec as well (shipyard theft), where I'd dare say most of the mindlinks come from. Certainly where I've gotten all of mine. And it only costs so much because CCP added more lvl IV storylines so people are getting the mission less often.
TLDR; Incursions pay too much |
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