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TravisWB Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic 18	Posted - 2012.02.28 01:28:00 - [1] - Quote Prior to Crucible it was possible to run a "hobby" small tower with very little time and effort required to produce all the fuel items needed to run a small moon miner in lowsec. Even better, a secure hisec small tower could run just the tower and a lab or 2 for almost nothing in the way of fuel and a single person could keep such towers running with little effort. Well, now that is all different and even a small tower with a single module is running at full load as though it was maxed out with modules. And prior to Crucible it sure as heck wasn't costing me 27 mil isk a week to run a single small tower either. Result? All my towers are down, I stopped doing PI and Ice mining on a corporate level and am more or less abandoning INDUSTRY as a viable part of EVE gameplay. I have also noticed a great many more offline towers than ever before so I'm guessing I am not alone in this.
Brock Nelson 375	Posted - 2012.02.28 01:51:00 - [2] - Quote It's easy to make the isk to cover for fuel cost. You're doing something wrong if you find that you can't pay for small tower Signature removed, CCP Phantom
Sidrat Flush Life is Experience 1	Posted - 2012.02.28 01:51:00 - [3] - Quote Can we get pos's that haven't been fueled for more than 30 days to go boom like the jet cans? Pretty please?
Rengerel en Distel Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord 7	Posted - 2012.02.28 02:23:00 - [4] - Quote If you can't make enough to cover the cost of running the POS, then it seems reasonable to shut it down. The gameplay changed, adapt or not. Don't assume bad intent, when stupidity is the much more likely cause.
Aggressive Nutmeg 122	Posted - 2012.02.28 04:12:00 - [5] - Quote TravisWB wrote: And prior to Crucible it sure as heck wasn't costing me 27 mil isk a week to run a single small tower either. It takes an average mission runner about an hour to make that much. Pretty cheap if you ask me. Never make eye contact with someone while eating a banana.
Steve Ronuken Fuzzwork Enterprises 247	Posted - 2012.02.28 04:15:00 - [6] - Quote Didn't scrapyard bob run the numbers, and find it was cheaper for small poses, regardless of how much CPU and PG you used to use? Due to things like smaller volumes of robotics being used? FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator and other 'useful' utilities.
Linda Shadowborn Dark Steel Industries 88	Posted - 2012.02.28 04:46:00 - [7] - Quote Steve Ronuken wrote: Didn't scrapyard bob run the numbers, and find it was cheaper for small poses, regardless of how much CPU and PG you used to use? Due to things like smaller volumes of robotics being used? yupp
loyalslave Askold Republic University Minmatar Republic 1	Posted - 2012.02.28 08:21:00 - [8] - Quote 27 mil per week? thats >16k per fuelblock. For someone trying trying to cut down the costs you sure are generous in giving tip to the fuel producers. TravisWB wrote: Even better, a secure hisec small tower could run just the tower and a lab or 2 for almost nothing in the way of fuel and a single person could keep such towers running with little effort. You do realise that most costs were fix the whole time, do you? Even a totaly empty small tower saved only 10% on the costs. All in all the reduction in robotics made it cheaper : empty cald small tower (0% pg/cpu; prices jita sell ; blocks bought, not built) old : 176,725 / h new 157,970 / h
Krixtal Icefluxor Bison - Ammatar Thunder Thundering Herd 349	Posted - 2012.02.28 12:17:00 - [9] - Quote I would define it as a POS fix, not a nerf. Indeed the cost of fueling a tower if you buy the fuel has DOUBLED (do the math yourself) if one buys the fuel off the market. And yes even lots of Null Alliance Towers have come down. BUT, there are WAY too many POS's out there anyway, most barely even used. This is working as intended I believe. Besides, I'm making a freaking fortune from the new fuel blocks, so win for me ! OMG He Spent His Free-áAURUM ! God is simply-áthe very extraordinary power of the Universe to organize Itself as percieved. -á-á- Lee Smolin "Three Roads to Quantum Gravity"
Dasola Rookies Empire Rookie Empire 11	Posted - 2012.02.28 14:00:00 - [10] - Quote i dont know what type of pos setup you run exactly but this fuel block thing made it cheaper for me to run small tower with 2 labs in highsec. Yeah im too lazy to bother with PI to make it fuel myself. [Insert something funny or smart here]
Celgar Thurn Department 10 22	Posted - 2012.02.28 15:43:00 - [11] - Quote Sidrat Flush wrote: Can we get pos's that haven't been fueled for more than 30 days to go boom like the jet cans? Pretty please? I had a cursory glance at a couple of planets the other day and both had towers anchored & offline. I don't think it would be fair for them to 'go boom'. A far better idea in roleplay/storyline terms would be for Minmatar Republic to charge a fine of xxxx amount of ISK per day from the corp wallet while a tower is offline. After all if a tower is offline then racial charters are not being delivered to the relevant authorities hence permission for your tower to be there is withdrawn. If after two weeks there are not sufficient funds to pay the fines or the tower has not been brought back online then the tower would be confiscated by the racial authorities and can be claimed back by the corporations CEO for xxxx amount of ISK. As to fueling towers a couple of pilots doing PI with five or six planets each even in high-sec with a bit of ice mining on top will fuel a large POS. Much less than that for a small POS.
Bugsy VanHalen Society of lost Souls 54	Posted - 2012.02.28 18:26:00 - [12] - Quote Dasola wrote: i dont know what type of pos setup you run exactly but this fuel block thing made it cheaper for me to run small tower with 2 labs in highsec. Yeah im too lazy to bother with PI to make it fuel myself. I have a small tower running three labs and a corp hanger just cause there is room. Defenses are kept off till i get a war dec. Which has not yet happened. I find a small tower uses way less fuel than before. fuel prices have gone up, yes, but that is not because of the POS change it is because of the PI change. If you calculate old fuel consumption with the new cost of mats it would have went up way more without the change to fuel blocks. A fully loaded tower uses far less ice products than it used to, but those products are much higher cost than they were before crucible. And most PI mats are lower as well. for example a small tower used to need one robotics per hour same as a large but now needs one robotics per batch of fuel blocks which lasts 4 hours on a small tower and O2 consumption seems to have gone way down. I am pretty much making the same number of PI fuel mats I was before, and since the expansion I seem to have a significantly higher surplus. I would like to see ice refining changed a bit though since the liquid ozone and heavy water you get from refining high sec ice is more out of balance than before. you need the same amount of each per run but get no where near the same amount per block from refining.
Krixtal Icefluxor Bison - Ammatar Thunder Thundering Herd 351	Posted - 2012.02.28 18:47:00 - [13] - Quote Bugsy VanHalen wrote: I would like to see ice refining changed a bit though since the liquid ozone and heavy water you get from refining high sec ice is more out of balance than before. Yup. Welcome to the New Bottleneck: Liquid Ozone. OMG He Spent His Free-áAURUM ! God is simply-áthe very extraordinary power of the Universe to organize Itself as percieved. -á-á- Lee Smolin "Three Roads to Quantum Gravity"
Ajita al Tchar Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 72	Posted - 2012.02.28 19:38:00 - [14] - Quote OP, ff you actually do industry with the aid of your high sec small POS (as the "bawww imma quit industry" part of your post would suggest you do...), there's only one way you might not be able to afford to keep the tower online and not even really worry about the cost much: you're doing it really wrong. Sure, it might feel annoying to have to shell out 100 mil or so for fuel for one month, but you can literally make that much money in a day, without even any PI or mining or whatever. Easily, lots of people make more than that. Anyway, I hope you were occupying an industry niche that I had a foot in because that means even more money for me :D PS: I love fuel blocks.
mxzf Shovel Bros 796	Posted - 2012.02.28 19:43:00 - [15] - Quote Krixtal Icefluxor wrote: Bugsy VanHalen wrote: I would like to see ice refining changed a bit though since the liquid ozone and heavy water you get from refining high sec ice is more out of balance than before. Yup. Welcome to the New Bottleneck: Liquid Ozone. Yeah, this is a bottleneck in POS fuel (and was before the block change too, but not quite as bad). I think it's both because you get half the LOz as HW when you refine ice and it's in higher demand because LOz is used in cynos and I don't remember anything using HW other than Rorquals compressing.
Velicitia Open Designs 687	Posted - 2012.02.28 19:48:00 - [16] - Quote mxzf wrote: Krixtal Icefluxor wrote: Bugsy VanHalen wrote: I would like to see ice refining changed a bit though since the liquid ozone and heavy water you get from refining high sec ice is more out of balance than before. Yup. Welcome to the New Bottleneck: Liquid Ozone. Yeah, this is a bottleneck in POS fuel (and was before the block change too, but not quite as bad). I think it's both because you get half the LOz as HW when you refine ice and it's in higher demand because LOz is used in cynos and I don't remember anything using HW other than Rorquals compressing. pretty much this. Not to mention that you get twice the HW from (hisec) ice than LO.
mxzf Shovel Bros 797	Posted - 2012.02.28 19:53:00 - [17] - Quote Velicitia wrote: mxzf wrote: Krixtal Icefluxor wrote: Bugsy VanHalen wrote: I would like to see ice refining changed a bit though since the liquid ozone and heavy water you get from refining high sec ice is more out of balance than before. Yup. Welcome to the New Bottleneck: Liquid Ozone. Yeah, this is a bottleneck in POS fuel (and was before the block change too, but not quite as bad). I think it's both because you get half the LOz as HW when you refine ice and it's in higher demand because LOz is used in cynos and I don't remember anything using HW other than Rorquals compressing. pretty much this. Not to mention that you get twice the HW from (hisec) ice than LO. I do believe I mentioned that mxzf wrote: you get half the LOz as HW when you refine ice Though I do admit it's not the most elegant wording possible, lol.
Velicitia Open Designs 687	Posted - 2012.02.28 20:12:00 - [18] - Quote mxzf wrote: I do believe I mentioned that mxzf wrote: you get half the LOz as HW when you refine ice Though I do admit it's not the most elegant wording possible, lol. that you did ... missed it on the first pass thru
Krixtal Icefluxor Bison - Ammatar Thunder Thundering Herd 352	Posted - 2012.02.28 20:46:00 - [19] - Quote Velicitia wrote: pretty much this. Not to mention that you get twice the HW from (hisec) ice than LO. Of course the Nullbears (Lowbear-ing is impossible I assume) have it all sealed up as usual with access to Glare Crust and Dark Glitter. Ice Batch Type Isotopes Liquid Ozone Heavy Water Strontium White Glaze 1 Nitrogen 300 25 50 1 Pristine White Glaze 1 Nitrogen 350 40 75 1 Glacial Mass 1 Hydrogen 300 25 50 1 Smooth Glacial Mass 1 Hydrogen 350 40 75 1 Blue Ice 1 Oxygen 300 25 50 1 Thick Blue Ice 1 Oxygen 350 40 75 1 Clear Icicle 1 Helium 300 25 50 1 Enriched Clear Icicle 1 Helium 350 40 75 1 Glare Crust 1 - 0 500 1,000 25 Dark Glitter 1 - 0 1,000 500 50 Gelidus 1 - 0 500 250 75 Krystallos 1 - 0 250 100 100 OMG He Spent His Free-áAURUM ! God is simply-áthe very extraordinary power of the Universe to organize Itself as percieved. -á-á- Lee Smolin "Three Roads to Quantum Gravity"
Velicitia Open Designs 689	Posted - 2012.02.28 20:55:00 - [20] - Quote Krixtal Icefluxor wrote: Velicitia wrote: pretty much this. Not to mention that you get twice the HW from (hisec) ice than LO. Of course the Nullbears (Lowbear-ing is impossible I assume) have it all sealed up as usual with access to Glare Crust and Dark Glitter. Ice Batch Type Isotopes Liquid Ozone Heavy Water Strontium White Glaze 1 Nitrogen 300 25 50 1 Pristine White Glaze 1 Nitrogen 350 40 75 1 Glacial Mass 1 Hydrogen 300 25 50 1 Smooth Glacial Mass 1 Hydrogen 350 40 75 1 Blue Ice 1 Oxygen 300 25 50 1 Thick Blue Ice 1 Oxygen 350 40 75 1 Clear Icicle 1 Helium 300 25 50 1 Enriched Clear Icicle 1 Helium 350 40 75 1 Glare Crust 1 - 0 500 1,000 25 Dark Glitter 1 - 0 1,000 500 50 Gelidus 1 - 0 500 250 75 Krystallos 1 - 0 250 100 100 you might wanna re-check where you can get the good ice. for example, check out Osvetur sometime.
Krixtal Icefluxor Bison - Ammatar Thunder Thundering Herd 352	Posted - 2012.02.28 21:03:00 - [21] - Quote Velicitia wrote: you might wanna re-check where you can get the good ice. for example, check out Osvetur sometime. My point being Low Sec (Osvetur) is much much more dangerous than Null Alliance protected territory....if you are in the Alliance that is. Ice Mining in Low is the same as bending over in prison and handing out sand-infused KY. OMG He Spent His Free-áAURUM ! God is simply-áthe very extraordinary power of the Universe to organize Itself as percieved. -á-á- Lee Smolin "Three Roads to Quantum Gravity"
Velicitia Open Designs 689	Posted - 2012.02.28 21:12:00 - [22] - Quote Krixtal Icefluxor wrote: Velicitia wrote: you might wanna re-check where you can get the good ice. for example, check out Osvetur sometime. My point being Low Sec (Osvetur) is much much more dangerous than Null Alliance protected territory....if you are in the Alliance that is. Ice Mining in Low is the same as bending over in prison and handing out sand-infused KY. depends really ... Osvetur isn't exactly a hub of scum and villainy ... but yeah, it'll take more work than hisec (terribad yield) or nullsec (deep blue space) edit -- forgot to mention though, that the "safety" in nullsec is a bonus of "days/weeks of war trying to take the system/constellation from someone else"
Krixtal Icefluxor Bison - Ammatar Thunder Thundering Herd 352	Posted - 2012.02.28 21:17:00 - [23] - Quote Velicitia wrote: Krixtal Icefluxor wrote: My point being Low Sec (Osvetur) is much much more dangerous than Null Alliance protected territory....if you are in the Alliance that is. Ice Mining in Low is the same as bending over in prison and handing out sand-infused KY. depends really ... Osvetur isn't exactly a hub of scum and villainy ... but yeah, it'll take more work than hisec (terribad yield) or nullsec (deep blue space) Yup. Also, looking at the numbers, if one does the D-scan and run scenario in Low Sec for about an hour, that would yield quite a bit of L-Ozone. OMG He Spent His Free-áAURUM ! God is simply-áthe very extraordinary power of the Universe to organize Itself as percieved. -á-á- Lee Smolin "Three Roads to Quantum Gravity"
Bugsy VanHalen Society of lost Souls 55	Posted - 2012.02.28 21:38:00 - [24] - Quote Krixtal Icefluxor wrote: Velicitia wrote: pretty much this. Not to mention that you get twice the HW from (hisec) ice than LO. Of course the Nullbears (Lowbear-ing is impossible I assume) have it all sealed up as usual with access to Glare Crust and Dark Glitter. Ice Batch Type Isotopes Liquid Ozone Heavy Water Strontium White Glaze 1 Nitrogen 300 25 50 1 Pristine White Glaze 1 Nitrogen 350 40 75 1 Glacial Mass 1 Hydrogen 300 25 50 1 Smooth Glacial Mass 1 Hydrogen 350 40 75 1 Blue Ice 1 Oxygen 300 25 50 1 Thick Blue Ice 1 Oxygen 350 40 75 1 Clear Icicle 1 Helium 300 25 50 1 Enriched Clear Icicle 1 Helium 350 40 75 1 Glare Crust 1 - 0 500 1,000 25 Dark Glitter 1 - 0 1,000 500 50 Gelidus 1 - 0 500 250 75 Krystallos 1 - 0 250 100 100 Yeah I used to mine dark glitter when I lived in null. but high sec POSes are pretty much exclusively fueled with high sec ice. you need to mine twice as much to get enough liquid ozone and the surplus of heavy water you have is useless ass there is little demand for it. There are also far more jump freighter pilots buying liquid ozone in high sec than there are Roqual pilots buying heavy water. It should be the other way around, twice as much LO as HW.
Krixtal Icefluxor Bison - Ammatar Thunder Thundering Herd 352	Posted - 2012.02.28 21:49:00 - [25] - Quote Bugsy VanHalen wrote: It should be the other way around, twice as much LO as HW. Yeah. Made a promise to put back some LO for when the real Bottleneck hits on the Markets......but it's just impossible to save any at all as it gets used, of course. It's a case of make money now off Fuel Blocks....or possibly make even more money later with LO. Choices, choices.... OMG He Spent His Free-áAURUM ! God is simply-áthe very extraordinary power of the Universe to organize Itself as percieved. -á-á- Lee Smolin "Three Roads to Quantum Gravity"
Vyktor Abyss The Abyss Corporation Villore Accords 70	Posted - 2012.02.28 23:00:00 - [26] - Quote TravisWB wrote: Prior to Crucible it was possible to run a "hobby" small tower with very little time and effort required to produce all the fuel items needed to run a small moon miner in lowsec. Even better, a secure hisec small tower could run just the tower and a lab or 2 for almost nothing in the way of fuel and a single person could keep such towers running with little effort. Well, now that is all different and even a small tower with a single module is running at full load as though it was maxed out with modules. And prior to Crucible it sure as heck wasn't costing me 27 mil isk a week to run a single small tower either. Result? All my towers are down, I stopped doing PI and Ice mining on a corporate level and am more or less abandoning INDUSTRY as a viable part of EVE gameplay. I have also noticed a great many more offline towers than ever before so I'm guessing I am not alone in this. I ran this through Google translate and this was the result: I used to run a small tower alone WAAAAAAAAAAH now I don't Oh and I flew to another wrong moon by mistake and there was an offline POS so obviously everyone else has ragequit POS management too
Substantia Nigra NFI industrial Revival Of The Talocan Empire 555	Posted - 2012.02.28 23:33:00 - [27] - Quote As someone who solo-runs a number of large tower POSes, along with smalls and mediums when I am setting up or squatting, I am very happy with the post-crucible situation. I was also satisfied with the amount of implementation warning I was given. I still have to haul some fairly large volumes to-and-fro, to get the PI-based and ice-based fuel block components in the same place, but the simplification (dumbing down perhaps) of the actual tower fueling (IMO) far outweighs the increased complexity of having to manage a number of fuel-block production lines. I likes what crucible did for my POSes, and can only ask for some more POS-luvvin from CCP ... and the eventual automatic disintegration of all those deserted towers and modules that litter space. We can build and sell pretty much every ship. Check my bio for details. Our pirate epic arc completion packages really are very good: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=12973&find=unread
Krixtal Icefluxor Bison - Ammatar Thunder Thundering Herd 353	Posted - 2012.02.29 11:59:00 - [28] - Quote Substantia Nigra wrote: ... and the eventual automatic disintegration of all those deserted towers and modules that litter space. Yup, for me it's all about THIS. OMG He Spent His Free-áAURUM ! God is simply-áthe very extraordinary power of the Universe to organize Itself as percieved. -á-á- Lee Smolin "Three Roads to Quantum Gravity"
Steve Ronuken Fuzzwork Enterprises 252	Posted - 2012.02.29 12:10:00 - [29] - Quote Krixtal Icefluxor wrote: Substantia Nigra wrote: ... and the eventual automatic disintegration of all those deserted towers and modules that litter space. Yup, for me it's all about THIS. Me too. Or the ability to steal them. All about the profit, yo. FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator and other 'useful' utilities.
Alyssa SaintCroix Leihkasse Stammheim 22	Posted - 2012.02.29 12:28:00 - [30] - Quote Steve Ronuken wrote: Krixtal Icefluxor wrote: Substantia Nigra wrote: ... and the eventual automatic disintegration of all those deserted towers and modules that litter space. Yup, for me it's all about THIS. Me too. Or the ability to steal them. All about the profit, yo. Not too keen on the idea of stealing them. I was thinking more like, flagging towers for a two or four week duration allowing the corp or whomever to pull it down or put it back online. After the grace period expires, have mini events where local pirate factions take over the tower, apply a bounty to the tower and rats hanging around (based on security status perhaps) and then allow people to salvage the tower wreck for the parts required to make one -- the larger the tower the more parts with faction towers giving the best.

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