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Mordred Wolf
Minmatar
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.04.15 11:58:00 -
[1]
If you were to rob a bank and used your car to crash into the wall of the bank do you think you could make an insurance claim on your car? You can't, well, not in most countries. :P
Being concorded should veto your ship insurance. High-sec shouldn't be totally safe but at the moment is more of a smorgasborg for pirates than it is a secure region of space. Without insurance kick backs there is more risk associated to the party that that has ultimate control, the one who initiates the attack should have the greatest burden of risk for reward in a high security area and at the moment that is not the case, the burden is on the victim that has no real control.
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Lady Sheiba
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Posted - 2008.04.15 12:02:00 -
[2]
No, it works as intended.
However if you could care to post in one of the hundreds of threads on this matter instead of spamming more threads about it, that would be great 
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Fifth Horseman
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Posted - 2008.04.15 12:03:00 -
[3]
Similarly your insurance doesn't pay out if you fill your car with Gold Bullion and park it in the middle of Trafalgar Square.
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Boring & Banal. Just how CCP like it. |
Celeste Coeval
The Gosimer and Scarab
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Posted - 2008.04.15 12:04:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Fifth Horseman
Similarly your insurance doesn't pay out if you fill your car with Gold Bullion and park it in the middle of Trafalgar Square.
Originally by: Lance Fighter
This is either a troll or a noob... Ill take the noob route. |
Roxanna Kell
FinFleet
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.04.15 12:05:00 -
[5]
: ). Eve insurance is not there to emitate real life insurance.
You Premium never go up.
The ship you are insuring is not a car you move about in town, its a war machine.
So when An insurance company in real life insures a tank for the army, not sure if they do, But if that was the case, they would know that tank is used for war regardless if its a good war a bad war, or complete genecide.
The being Concorded Part of you idea is great, and has been mentioned before, but infortunetly talks never went on beyound the forums.
There was massive trolls, Huge angry mob was unleashed at the OP ,with.
*go back to wow.
*Can i have your stuff.
..........ect
You bascilly killing empire suicide gankers, qhich is good for the good noobies, but it will make empire even safer, And it will be even harder to get people out to 0.0 and low sec.
The risk if anything is even higher in high sec, since you will loose your ship 100%
Were in low sec and 0.,0, you can get out.
Lot less juicy targets, but you can always get out none the less. long as your not scrambled.
Quote:
There is no Dishonor in winning fools, so do it any way you can.
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Armoured C
Gallente
Globaltech Industries
The ENTITY.
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Posted - 2008.04.15 12:13:00 -
[6]
come to low sec =) then you wont be garanteed to be destroyed
wow i never thought i would actually congratulate goon on doing something worthy but it look like they actually might push people to low sec for fear of saftey O_O
this must be one of those alter reality things =)
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Cpt Branko
Surge.
Night's Dawn
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Posted - 2008.04.15 12:18:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 15/04/2008 12:18:54
Originally by: Armoured C
come to low sec =) then you wont be garanteed to be destroyed
wow i never thought i would actually congratulate goon on doing something worthy but it look like they actually might push people to low sec for fear of saftey O_O
this must be one of those alter reality things =)
Just a week or so after Goonswarm started the Jihadswarm campaign of suiciding Hulks in high-sec, I found my first Exhumer in a low-sec belt.
A Hulk, merrily mining in Tama VI-1, with a alt in a Iteron scooping ore.
Seriously, I was going 'when will the recons uncloak and pwn me' while killing it. Was shocked when i figured out it's not bait but is a actual Hulk mining in a system which has only, what, 100+ kills per day?
I mean, people (should, you occasionally get genuine nubbins because you're so close to caldari space) never go to Tama VI-1 to do anything, it's where bait is.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Krollin
Minmatar
Ki Shoda
United Corporations Against Macros
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Posted - 2008.04.15 12:23:00 -
[8]
Mordred Wolf,
Removing ship insurance for people who loose ships to CONCORD will not stop the tactics people employ. I am sure you have heard the term "Adapt or Die" mentioned a number of times in this forum......
I don't think it is CONCORD or the Insurance system that is at fault. I see this as someone, or some group of pilots coming up with an idea that is within the laws of the game and using it to thier finanical advantage. What I don't see is anyone coming up with a tactic to avoid them, and before you respond saying there is no counter tactic think very carefully!
Leave things as they are. Did I say Adapt or die yet?
Kro
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Bob Artis
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Posted - 2008.04.15 12:24:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Roxanna Kell
Edited by: Roxanna Kell on 15/04/2008 12:07:16
You bascilly killing empire suicide gankers, which is good for the good noobies, but it will make empire even safer, And it will be even harder to get people out to 0.0 and low sec.
Wait... what? How will noobies getting suicide ganked make it harder to get to 0.0?
The way I look at it if those noobies have the safety to carebear it in high sec and make some money they wont mind taking one of thier ships into 0.0 because they feel they can loose it.
If all of the noobies keep loosing thier s!@# when they think they are safe I can't imagine how they'll feel about 0.0.
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Mordred Wolf
Minmatar
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.04.15 12:29:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Mordred Wolf on 15/04/2008 12:30:48
Originally by: Roxanna Kell
Edited by: Roxanna Kell on 15/04/2008 12:07:16
 . Eve insurance is not there to emitate real life insurance.
You Premium never go up.
The ship you are insuring is not a car you move about in town, its a war machine.
So when An insurance company in real life insures a tank for the army, not sure if they do, But if that was the case, they would know that tank is used for war regardless if its a good war a bad war, or complete genecide.
Well, EVE insurance factors the high probability of a loss and only lasts 3 months. So if you calculate what your premium would be for your car based on EVE ratios you wouldn't bother to insure your car unless you wrote it off regularly.
Quote:
The being Concorded Part of you idea is great, and has been mentioned before, but infortunetly talks never went on beyound the forums.
The way things go beyond good ideas to implemented features is via volume of suggestions. I haven't seen any threads on this in the first few pages so I just voiced my opinion. Perhaps if these kinds of ideas get enough support then it may be something brought up again by the developers.
Quote:
There was massive trolls, Huge angry mob was unleashed at the OP ,with.
*go back to wow.
*Can i have your stuff.
..........ect
I like risk, I like reward. There is a place for both. At the moment the loss for pirates is easy to calculate and the overall cost is negligible due to the types of insurance available, you can make budget ganking ships nowdays and you don't really need rich hauler to make a profit from. For a victim, the ship is incidental to the cost of modules, for the pirate the major cost is the ship. The mechanics favour the pirate and hinder the non-pirate.
Quote:
You bascilly killing empire suicide gankers, which is good for the good noobies, but it will make empire even safer, And it will be even harder to get people out to 0.0 and low sec.
Not really, it just limits the types of targets that would become viable targets. Everyone I have ever met much prefers to be in 0.0 than empire, sadly, is it typically safer if you are in a large alliance (unless you get coalitioned). The risk associated with 0.0 ratting is minor when you are deep in your controlled territory. Most of the people stuck in empire are there because they are new, don't have the resources to go to 0.0, are in a small corp/alliance or are dependant on high sec for agents, ie R&D.
Those who move large shipments of expensive goods are not the disadvantaged and they can afford to protect their investment or hire professional movers. The current mechanics turn all sorts of noobish ships into viable targets because the risk is minimal.
Quote:
The risk if anything is even higher in high sec, since you will loose your ship 100%
Were in low sec and 0.,0, you can get out.
Lot less juicy targets, but you can always get out none the less. long as your not scrambled.
I think the existing mechanics makes it too easy to do anti-social behaviour like goons poppping defensless barges, it is the ship insurance payout component that supports this kind of behavior and someone can be in the game for a few weeks and get hit constantly by suicide gankers. The mechanics should be there to help newer players get the opportunity to expand out. For a relatively new player when you lose something like a retriever then the modules and rigs are typically your biggest loss and it is a massive loss for newer players. They shouldn't be easy prey.
This is not about me, I have never been suicide ganked but I know several that have and it is a major setback for them while the ****less morons involved just giggle out of making noobs feel bad.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.04.15 12:33:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Bob Artis
Wait... what? How will noobies getting suicide ganked make it harder to get to 0.0?
The way I look at it if those noobies have the safety to carebear it in high sec and make some money they wont mind taking one of thier ships into 0.0 because they feel they can loose it.
If all of the noobies keep loosing thier s!@# when they think they are safe I can't imagine how they'll feel about 0.0.
Don't know much about how the human mind works, do you ?
"Hm, I make good money in highsec... why bother going to lowsec or 0.0 if I can get everything I need right here anyway ? Besides, it's a lot less trouble, and it's relatively safe. So, yeah, I see no reason to move out of highsec any time soon, no sir"
as opposed to
"What the hell, blown up AGAIN ? Aww, man, if this keeps going on I'll just have to sign up with a larger group and move out somewhere where they can keep me safe. Besides, I hear mining out in 0.0 pays really well, oh what the heck, I'll just go there since I get blown up here all the time too anyway."
1|2|3|4|5. |
Mordred Wolf
Minmatar
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.04.15 12:39:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Krollin
Mordred Wolf,
Removing ship insurance for people who loose ships to CONCORD will not stop the tactics people employ. I am sure you have heard the term "Adapt or Die" mentioned a number of times in this forum......
I don't think it is CONCORD or the Insurance system that is at fault. I see this as someone, or some group of pilots coming up with an idea that is within the laws of the game and using it to thier finanical advantage. What I don't see is anyone coming up with a tactic to avoid them, and before you respond saying there is no counter tactic think very carefully!
Leave things as they are. Did I say Adapt or die yet?
Kro
I am not against ganking in high sec, I have done this a few times when someone cheesed me off, I just got in a disposable ship and popped him, not for profit but because the other guy was an ass. There will always be consequences for your actions.
However, some degenerative behaviour which is often targeted at relatively new people who have nowhere else to go is made a lot easier by the insurance system. You can't tell noobs to adapt, they have nowhere else to go.
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William Alex
Viscosity
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Posted - 2008.04.15 12:49:00 -
[13]
Seriously, as much as I don't feel there is balance in paying insurance to suicide gankers. The real life analogies are going to have to stop, they are pointless.
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Armoured C
Gallente
Globaltech Industries
The ENTITY.
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Posted - 2008.04.15 12:55:00 -
[14]
ive lived in low sec for a long time if you with the right corp and connected into the constiallation radio chatter and make a group of other corps and patroll the area i mine in low sec with a hulk and havent been shot down because i know when there are forces commming in
use some of that grey matter
you can be safer where i am ( undisclosed location ) that with a bunch of gankageddons just suddendly appearing O_O
i thought the human race was ment to be the smartest not the moanyiest @.@
there my forum rant for the day
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Ki An
Gallente
Filiolus Of Bellum
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Posted - 2008.04.15 12:59:00 -
[15]
You mean to tell me there are people suiciding their ships in high sec? I've never read about that before in hundreds of other threads.
Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
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Ordon Gundar
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Posted - 2008.04.15 13:01:00 -
[16]
Out of all those who dont want changes, how many of you are pirates / aggressive PvPers? Be honest!
Those with a vested interest in preserving the status quo always reply to these threads with an aggressive "go back to wow..give me your stuff" response. I would if I were a full-time PvPer.
But, I agree that the insurance pay-outs at the moment do not work anything like insurance. They are ludicrous. Its like saying to the customer "go and destroy your own vehicle whenever you need the money, and we will pay out"!
That isnt insurance. They should call it something else, something like "guaranteed money payout for those who are already making money from killing other players"!
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Armoured C
Gallente
Globaltech Industries
The ENTITY.
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Posted - 2008.04.15 13:06:00 -
[17]
it-not-made-from-wheat-made-from-oats-instead-abix for new insurers name
stop refering to insurance ingame to real life
it not the same this is like a 1000 years in the future maybe this is what insurance will be like when space travel actually happens
you never know
wait otabix
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the Entity
Earned In Blood
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Posted - 2008.04.15 13:11:00 -
[18]
blah blah...when will i get insurance for forum reading? I should get a payout for every whine thread ive endured!
btw -my name-u have it- please pay me 
dont feed the squirrels!
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Mordred Wolf
Minmatar
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.04.15 13:25:00 -
[19]
Originally by: William Alex
Seriously, as much as I don't feel there is balance in paying insurance to suicide gankers. The real life analogies are going to have to stop, they are pointless.
Any comparison between real life and EVE are just metaphoric. The concept of crime, crime prevention and consequences. Voidance of insurance policies in real life is a consequence of your action, as are the many other restrictions on profiting from illegal activities.
In real life there are complex structures, the consequence are high. In EVE, they are non-existant, just a minor difference between ship cost and insured amount plus module costs. It is almost encouraging illegal activities in high security areas rather than discouraging.
It is not a dig at the players, they are not stupid, they see the cost and the potential gain, variance between risk outlay vs potential reward is significant. So much so that you can just grief where the objective is no gain whatsoever, other than the pleasure some get from causing significant loss to others. I believe the term is called griefing. It is apparently against the rules of EVE but the mechanics support it and it is not policed. So it is just a paper policy I guess they use to dupe new players into playing.
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Major Stallion
Four Rings
Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.15 13:27:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Mordred Wolf
If you were to rob a bank and used your car to crash into the wall of the bank do you think you could make an insurance claim on your car? You can't, well, not in most countries. :P
Being concorded should veto your ship insurance. High-sec shouldn't be totally safe but at the moment is more of a smorgasborg for pirates than it is a secure region of space. Without insurance kick backs there is more risk associated to the party that that has ultimate control, the one who initiates the attack should have the greatest burden of risk for reward in a high security area and at the moment that is not the case, the burden is on the victim that has no real control.
when are you ******s gunna get it through your thick skulls that Eve != RL? Stop making comparisons to RL.
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Shinjin Malvek
Amarr
Genesis Accord
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Posted - 2008.04.15 13:27:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Bob Artis
Wait... what? How will noobies getting suicide ganked make it harder to get to 0.0?
The way I look at it if those noobies have the safety to carebear it in high sec and make some money they wont mind taking one of thier ships into 0.0 because they feel they can loose it.
If all of the noobies keep loosing thier s!@# when they think they are safe I can't imagine how they'll feel about 0.0.
Don't know much about how the human mind works, do you ?
"Hm, I make good money in highsec... why bother going to lowsec or 0.0 if I can get everything I need right here anyway ? Besides, it's a lot less trouble, and it's relatively safe. So, yeah, I see no reason to move out of highsec any time soon, no sir"
as opposed to
"What the hell, blown up AGAIN ? Aww, man, if this keeps going on I'll just have to sign up with a larger group and move out somewhere where they can keep me safe. Besides, I hear mining out in 0.0 pays really well, oh what the heck, I'll just go there since I get blown up here all the time too anyway."
Sorry Akita but I think Bob has a bit of a point. You may also, it just depends on who's mind you look at.. For me it was as Bob says, my corp was doing ok in empire and we could afford ships fairly well so one day we started looking at the map and tward 0.0 in search of greater riches. I ended up losing my BC to a bubble on the gate as I was headed back into empire after scouting things out in a lil 0.0 pocket but I didn't feel so bad because we could get another...
If new people feel unsafe in empire then I would think they will be less likely to think they can get anywhere in 0.0 where it's even less safe. I know thats how I and my corp felt (Though we were never ganked in Highsec)
I really don't think anything needs changing in empire as some form of not quite safe feeling is good and should help people learn to be on their toes and help develop tactics to avoid being ganked.
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Mordred Wolf
Minmatar
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.04.15 13:28:00 -
[22]
Originally by: the Entity
blah blah...when will i get insurance for forum reading? I should get a payout for every whine thread ive endured!
btw -my name-u have it- please pay me
Why be a moron and post in a thread you have no interest in? Oh, I see, you just don't want anyone to voice an opinion on something that might inconvenience you, I guess that is by your definition a whine.
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Mordred Wolf
Minmatar
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.04.15 13:30:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Major Stallion
when are you ******s gunna get it through your thick skulls that Eve != RL? Stop making comparisons to RL.
So the real world concept of corporations, conquest, crime, etc should also be thrown out the window?
Or should we just ignore the concepts that inconvenience you?
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Tobias Sjodin
Ore Mongers
Black Hand.
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Posted - 2008.04.15 13:30:00 -
[24]
Because that's how EVE works.
Black Hand.
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Major Stallion
Four Rings
Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.15 13:34:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Mordred Wolf
Originally by: Major Stallion
when are you ******s gunna get it through your thick skulls that Eve != RL? Stop making comparisons to RL.
So the real world concept of corporations, conquest, crime, etc should also be thrown out the window?
Or should we just ignore the concepts that inconvenience you?
So because a game adopts SOME concepts from RL, it makes it a RL sim?
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Mordred Wolf
Minmatar
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.04.15 13:39:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Shinjin Malvek
Sorry Akita but I think Bob has a bit of a point. You may also, it just depends on who's mind you look at.. For me it was as Bob says, my corp was doing ok in empire and we could afford ships fairly well so one day we started looking at the map and tward 0.0 in search of greater riches. I ended up losing my BC to a bubble on the gate as I was headed back into empire after scouting things out in a lil 0.0 pocket but I didn't feel so bad because we could get another...
If new people feel unsafe in empire then I would think they will be less likely to think they can get anywhere in 0.0 where it's even less safe. I know thats how I and my corp felt (Though we were never ganked in Highsec)
I really don't think anything needs changing in empire as some form of not quite safe feeling is good and should help people learn to be on their toes and help develop tactics to avoid being ganked.
I believe the biggest issue with 0.0 these large mega alliances that control far more space than they can conceivably utilise and it is hard for a small corp/alliance to fight there way into a small corner of 0.0 space when the alliance you are moving in on has military ties with a dozen other major alliances. You have a snowflake's chance in hell unless there has been major conflict, alliance disbanded, etc and even then you are likely to get eventually get pushed out once the borders are re-defined.
Some try and rent out some space but overall large slabs of space are under utilised. It is extremely difficult for a small corp or alliance to go into 0.0 space because they are flatly denied access to it. Most new people end up in small corps or alliances. Any alliance of note has what, 10m+ SP requirement or extensive experience, don't see any of the big alliances opening the door for noobs to come out to 0.0 space.
Some choose to remain in empire, but overall, it is due to a lack of other options other than abandoning the corp/alliance they have grown up with.
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Armoured C
Gallente
Globaltech Industries
The ENTITY.
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Posted - 2008.04.15 13:43:00 -
[27]
Originally by: the Entity
blah blah...when will i get insurance for forum reading? I should get a payout for every whine thread ive endured!
btw -my name-u have it- please pay me
ZOMG WOW but our is alliance name
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Nielas
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Posted - 2008.04.15 13:43:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Mordred Wolf
Originally by: Major Stallion
when are you ******s gunna get it through your thick skulls that Eve != RL? Stop making comparisons to RL.
So the real world concept of corporations, conquest, crime, etc should also be thrown out the window?
Or should we just ignore the concepts that inconvenience you?
I think it is all just window dressing. CCP sprinkled just enough stuff that was similar to RL to make the players believe that the game operated basicly on RL rules of human behaviour. However, if you look closer this is blatantly false.
The cops in this game operate like not cops past, present and future would operate. You are supposed to believe that they are some sort of Judge Dredd type of organization but in fact they are just a bunch of idiots who can witness an obvious crime in progress and do nothing after just having blown up a guy without even a warning.
The insurance in this game is not really insurace, corporations are not really corporations. Logic and Common Sense as we know it in RL just do not apply in EVE. They are just purely arbitrary rules based on what the devs felt like coding in and what they chose to leave out.
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Cpt Branko
Surge.
Night's Dawn
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Posted - 2008.04.15 13:54:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 15/04/2008 13:57:42
Originally by: Mordred Wolf
despite the fact that Concord was designed as a law enforcement body to help prevent criminal activity
No, it was not.
Concord was designed to PUNISH criminal activity, NOT prevent it.
That said, it's monumentally illogical to have insurance on combat ships in any way, or get insurance on haulers which follow safety procedures:
- never AFK
- MWD+cloak+istabs/nanos as mandatory fitting
- forbidden to carry more cargo then cost to suicide without insurance * 2.5)
- enter low-sec with > 1 recorded kills in last hour
Naturally, haulers following such procedures won't get mugged even now.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Finideach
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Posted - 2008.04.15 14:00:00 -
[30]
CCP insurance is not in the game for the benefit of the players losing the ship. I think Eve called it insurance, but what they really wanted was a mechanism to moderate mineral prices. Had they called it the "Interstellar Recycling Refund" it would serve the same purpose - but maybe folks wouldn't be hung up on that it's an "insurance".
It's a mechanic designed to deliver game design (upper and lower end of mineral prices).
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