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Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.04.17 04:54:00 - [31] Originally by: Arthur Frayn I'll concede the insurance makes it a good choice along with the HP buffer, but in my experience, it still doesn't last long. And an ECM fitted Scorp has negligible firepower. It won't survive primarying from a 200 man blob, but it damn sure will survive being primaried from a 20 man gang (both because it can jam several of them and it has the EHP to survive and warp out). Also, it's free. -Liang
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.04.17 04:55:00 - [32] Originally by: Arthur Frayn Do Amarr really need another Apoc? The Apoc is a sniper. The Geddon is not. -Liang
Arthur Frayn V.O.F.L IRON CORE	Posted - 2008.04.17 05:06:00 - [33] Edited by: Arthur Frayn on 17/04/2008 05:07:04 Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Arthur Frayn Do Amarr really need another Apoc? The Apoc is a sniper. The Geddon is not. -Liang Very true, but making the Geddon's cap bonus intrinsic is too much like the Apoc change. I suppose you could make it a nos-boat, but then it might be expected that every tier 1 battleship become an e-war boat like the Scorpion. This might be a good thing, or it might kill racial uniqueness.
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS	Posted - 2008.04.17 05:25:00 - [34] I likes my geddon/apoc/abaddon the way they are tyvm.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.04.17 06:02:00 - [35] Originally by: Arthur Frayn Very true, but making the Geddon's cap bonus intrinsic is too much like the Apoc change. I suppose you could make it a nos-boat, but then it might be expected that every tier 1 battleship become an e-war boat like the Scorpion. This might be a good thing, or it might kill racial uniqueness. No matter how you look at it, the cap bonus is not a real bonus. The only sensible thing to do is to internalize that bonus and give the ship a real bonus of some sort. It has nothing to do with making the ship an "apoc". -Liang
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue Sex Panthers	Posted - 2008.04.17 06:03:00 - [36] To the OP: you totally don't know WTF you're talking about. Additionally, you also don't know how to spell "Scorpion, Maelstrom, Rokh, Abaddon" etc. etc. etc.. The Geddon, Apoc and Abaddon all behave completely differently. Same with all the Minmatar, Gallente and Caldari BS. If you can't see what the differences are, look a bit closer.
Rethor Badus Gallente Eye Of Horus	Posted - 2008.04.17 11:03:00 - [37] Originally by: Bellum Eternus To the OP: you totally don't know WTF you're talking about. Additionally, you also don't know how to spell "Scorpion, Maelstrom, Rokh, Abaddon" etc. etc. etc.. The Geddon, Apoc and Abaddon all behave completely differently. Same with all the Minmatar, Gallente and Caldari BS. If you can't see what the differences are, look a bit closer. Yes.. the Abaddon the Geddon & the Apoc are totally different.... Geddon 8 highs 3 Mids 8 lows 7 guns 1 cap related bonus 1 laser bonus Apoc 8 highs 4 mids 7 lows 8 guns 1 cap related bonus 1 laser bonus Abaddon 8 highs 4 Mids 7 Lows 8 Guns 1 Resist (ohhhh different) 1 laser bonus... If you call that completely different.. then you need a brain. How can an armour tanking slow battleship with lasers behave totally different....? The geddon has a few large drones, the abaddon has better resists, and the apoc has better range... ....
Yuri Vladomirovic	Posted - 2008.04.17 11:26:00 - [38] If ya fit thingies over 500M ISK on a ship, than that prise diff of the tier1-tier2-tier3 battleships is not much anymore. To the topic question: Why is no, or only slightly diff between Mega-Hypi, Geddon-Abaddon? Answer is: Just because. Tier1-tier2 are for the masses and for big pvps. Tier3 (Hypi, Abaddon) is for soloing (the only time u are the flag ship of your fleet), where u have to fulfill much more than only 1 role. They are in tanking better, can output good dps, maybe some place for EW. Soloing is their way, and tier3 bs is their weapon.
adriaans Amarr Advanced Capital Ship Designs Hephaestus Rising	Posted - 2008.04.17 11:32:00 - [39] Edited by: adriaans on 17/04/2008 11:35:46 I partly disagree/agree on your Abaddon vs Armageddon argument, IF the Armageddon gets more CPU (yes again, its still lacking a bit) that ship could do a lot more than it can now hence creating that 'diversity'. edit: the resist bonus on Abaddon isn't that diversity? on the Hyperion vs the mega, eh..last i checked hype had more turrets and more PG meaning it would do more dmg no than mega before dmg mods no? personally i believe the hype is a better solo ship, that repping bonus with max skills and rigs means you can take on several ships with an active tank instead of a buffer. i agree with your minmatar anaylis...maybe make the tempest shield tanked? would be good with more shield tanked ships in pvp, but then again they got the maelstrom... the tempest isn't as bad as people think though....ever faced one loading HAIL L on you while in a T1 ship :( (that ex dmg hurts!) i agree on caldari too, although contrary to what people believe they can solo (raven particularly)
Rethor Badus Gallente Eye Of Horus	Posted - 2008.04.17 11:43:00 - [40] Hyperion has same grid as mega but has to fit 1 more gun = worse dps/tank combination, the lack of a low slot also makes it worse. It can tank better solo yes, but then it cant output enuff dps to break any high grade tank at all. + its cap use is so insane it runs out of charges in no time. (see abaddon for same problem when solo)
Rethor Badus Gallente Eye Of Horus	Posted - 2008.04.17 11:49:00 - [41] Edited by: Rethor Badus on 17/04/2008 11:52:04 Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Arthur Frayn Very true, but making the Geddon's cap bonus intrinsic is too much like the Apoc change. I suppose you could make it a nos-boat, but then it might be expected that every tier 1 battleship become an e-war boat like the Scorpion. This might be a good thing, or it might kill racial uniqueness. No matter how you look at it, the cap bonus is not a real bonus. The only sensible thing to do is to internalize that bonus and give the ship a real bonus of some sort. It has nothing to do with making the ship an "apoc". -Liang Totall agree with that tbh. If the geddon had a different bonus to the cap one, it would be more different to the abaddon, thusly giving all of the amarr battleships there own flavour. Tho i still belive the hyperion needs a change to turn it into the alledged blasterboat it was meant to be... I know im not the only person who was sorely dissapointed at the ship when it was released. Personally i would love for the hyperion to have to have a duel damage bonus (following in the taranis/demios) trend +10% hybrid per level. No tanking bonus, drop the hp amount, Turn this into a glass cannon ;) pew pew, would be ace with neutrons n duel webb, would do a tonne of damage... but would tank like a wet paper bag.
Tasko Pal Heron Corporation	Posted - 2008.04.17 11:50:00 - [42] Haven't had a chance to play with these bs yet, but the Apoc looks interesting for cross-faction weapons and special purposes. For example, you could fit arty or a/c and a monster tank including double reppers. Or a full rack of smart bombs. Looks to me like it the best cap for a t1 battleship in the game (at amarr bs 5) especially with all those lows. Should be good for something.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.04.17 15:31:00 - [43] Originally by: Tasko Pal Haven't had a chance to play with these bs yet, but the Apoc looks interesting for cross-faction weapons and special purposes. For example, you could fit arty or a/c and a monster tank including double reppers. Or a full rack of smart bombs. Looks to me like it the best cap for a t1 battleship in the game (at amarr bs 5) especially with all those lows. Should be good for something. ... like being the best sniper in the game, bar none? ... like having 70-100km pulse lasers? It's not like EM damage is "teh sux" anymore. Fit Teh Lazors. -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Terianna Eri Amarr Scrutari The Cyrene Initiative	Posted - 2008.04.17 15:42:00 - [44] Originally by: Tasko Pal Haven't had a chance to play with these bs yet, but the Apoc looks interesting for cross-faction weapons and special purposes. For example, you could fit arty or a/c and a monster tank including double reppers. Or a full rack of smart bombs. Looks to me like it the best cap for a t1 battleship in the game (at amarr bs 5) especially with all those lows. Should be good for something. Check out the patch notes for the Boost Patch, where they made the Apoc really awesome by internalizing the cap bonus (base cap +25%, no bonus for Amarr BS) and gave it a 7.5% laser optimal range bonus per level. Seriously, give it lasers. 40+km multifreq optimal with beams, 20km multifreq optimal with megapulse (yes, the shortest range it can get is in fact out to t1 disruptor range), and some silly optimal with scorch.
LordChaos Amarr Sons Of Amun	Posted - 2008.04.17 16:25:00 - [45] Originally by: Rethor Badus Originally by: Commander Thrawn WHINEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE I have to say that the current balance with battleships imo is the best it has been in the 3years i have played this game. Hmm, Maybe you misread... i didnt mention balanced... of couse the ships are balanced when at least 2 of each races battleships (exluding caldari) are virtually the same. Balance is farr easier when you cut out diversity. Im not asking for any buffs/nerfs, just a simple look at the lack of true diversity. In regards to the comments on cost.. well, its irrelivent to be honest... saying "oh its more expensive lets just make it better" isnt exactly making ships unique. & LordChaos does so well cuz he has a falcon alt on his wing 24/7, not sayingg anything against that, as he fights outnumbered and its the only way to take on the odds.. but 1 falcon really does tip the tables in small gang warfair. LOL i see my name is being thrown around Abaddon is good in doing specific roles Best Dps Amarr BS with awesome passive tank or can be the best tank with crap damage. Geddon is more versatile in that area cause the drones but Geddon cannot tank as good as the abaddon if thats its only role but it can do great damage and have a good tank or a average tank. Geddon can do slightly more DPS than a abaddon but tank will be crap and u will need faction mods to make it be good. and it can fit a large remote rep without screwing its dps or tank which is very good in gangs What i like about the abaddon is the guns do most of the dps. sorry but i dont see where the falcon has to do with this topic. And no i dont pimp out my abaddon cause i always get ganked when i do lol. so no more pimping my BS when engaging without backup lol. Hyperion sucks balls hate it lol Megat / Domi own :) love the Domi tbh
The Baroness	Posted - 2008.04.17 17:24:00 - [46] I was thinking about this today actually, and coming from an Amarr pilot, I realised that every race but the Amarr battleships cover two different weapon systems. Caldari have hybrids/missiles gallenta have drones/hybrids minmatar have missiles/projectiles amarr have lasers/???? Perhaps drop the geddons cap use bonus, and give it a drone bonus .
Wu Jiun State War Academy	Posted - 2008.04.17 17:35:00 - [47] Touch my geddon/abaddon and you're dead. No, but seriously if you think these ships need changes you have no clue. The only ship that might have been fun with another weapon system would've been the apoc. But they made it a sniper now which was also a reasonable move. Now stop messing with my battleships. Liangs proposal is the only one that would be ok (or rather great). Geddon could then have a tracking bonus to further emphasize its role and it would "differentiate" abaddon/geddon even more. Its not needed though in my opinion.
Opertone Caldari Simtech Productions	Posted - 2008.04.17 17:43:00 - [48] KITSUNE surpasses the scoripion in small gang fighting scorpion is easy to primary - it is big and slow kistune is hard to hit in BS engagement, it has more ECM power, faster lock and can perma jamm 5 BS... or at least break their locks again and again, so that they spend 10 seconds locking you scorpion is somewhat useless... for the price and skill point requirements... BS 5 for max EW bonus... you can get 3 races EW frigs and beat all BSes not many people with caldari BS V will want a scorpion many more people will perefer a kitsune - low price, low SP, better characteristics ROKH? i don't like this ship... it has good fleet capabilities, tank and range... but otherwise is least effective of all battleships ever, it is too skill intensive, large tech 2 rails can be 6 mill SP alone, then the ship costs 150 mill, which makes it expensive, in conclusion it has very little versatility or roles, (few people choose turrets for caldari) Raven - king of PVE, less usefull for solo, is the most straight caldari ship... it has average price, some drone bay, requires missile skills (caldari career) MEGAthrone - is a number one solo PVP and tournament winning ship Ammar BIG gun BS, is very close to megathrone in its success in solo and tournaments Dominx is the cheapest and the most versatile BS ever, very noob friendly and fearsome in skilled player hands Nano typhoons make me cry and laugh - don't see how they can go that fast, but they do, ok so be it, they are minimatar i don't see many minimatar BS outside of minimatar space
Achran Dexx Caldari CompleXion Industries	Posted - 2008.04.17 17:46:00 - [49] I believe you're not all too well-versed on the field of cost-effectivity, entry-levels and TIERS ;)
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.04.17 17:53:00 - [50] Originally by: Opertone KITSUNE surpasses the scoripion in small gang fighting No, because the Scorp can fit large smartbombs. No, seriously. Quote: scorpion is easy to primary - it is big and slow Fortunately, it's free and has the EHP to survive being "primary". Quote: kistune is hard to hit in BS engagement Only if the other team only brings BS's. Beware cruisers, recons, and HACs. And drones if you venture too close. Quote: it has more ECM power, faster lock and can perma jamm 5 BS... No. It doesn't. Pure propaganda and lies. Quote: scorpion is somewhat useless... for the price and skill point requirements... BS 5 for max EW bonus... you can get 3 races EW frigs and beat all BSes Dude, the Scorpion has way more effective mids than the Kitsune, and has... three rig slots. Quote: not many people with caldari BS V will want a scorpion many more people will perefer a kitsune - low price, low SP, better characteristics Um, I'm training Caldari BS 5 for the Scorpion.. and I can't even fly EAS, because they're totally worthless. If I wanted to do the job of an EAS, I'd get a recon, or do it for free with a scorp. Quote: ROKH? i don't like this ship... it is too skill intensive, WHAT THE ***** HELL DUDE. Go look at the damn phoon before *ing about the Rokh as being skill intensive. FFS. Jeeze, ignorant. Also, the Rokh is great for any number of reasons, as long as you're willing to not tackle. Quote:** MEGAthrone - is a number one solo PVP and tournament winning ship Actually, the Megathron was the tournament losing ship. Quote: Dominx is the cheapest and the most versatile BS ever, very noob friendly and fearsome in skilled player hands Well, no. The Domi is easily more skill intensive than the Rokh, because you have to have 8 million SP in Drones and 6M SP in Hybrids and BS5. And it's still less skill intensive than the Phoon. Quote: Nano typhoons make me cry and laugh - don't see how they can go that fast, but they do, ok so be it, they are minimatar Have you played the game recently? Seriously? -Liang
Opertone Caldari Simtech Productions	Posted - 2008.04.17 18:03:00 - [51] liang - you noob you never used kitsune... i jammed 1 scorpion 2 ravens and a dominix and they could not counter me caldari have no point to train large hydrid turrets at all - phoenix uses torpedoes so that's a waste of 6 mill SP just for the rokh... scorpion costs 70 mill, raven 100 mill, rokh 150 mill megathrones are more prevalent on the kill boards as the killers - this is their success tech 1 drones on a dominix are more affordable than a megathrone nowdays - dominx doesn't require a lot in the drones to fly it well, you only need some neuts, cap and regular drones for noob PVP support
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.17 18:04:00 - [52] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Arthur Frayn Very true, but making the Geddon's cap bonus intrinsic is too much like the Apoc change. I suppose you could make it a nos-boat, but then it might be expected that every tier 1 battleship become an e-war boat like the Scorpion. This might be a good thing, or it might kill racial uniqueness. No matter how you look at it, the cap bonus is not a real bonus. The only sensible thing to do is to internalize that bonus and give the ship a real bonus of some sort. It has nothing to do with making the ship an "apoc". -Liang On the battleships its a "real" bonus, not so much on the smaller ships. Why? Because the advantage of pulse lasers is range and range becomes more important the larger ships become and the slower ships become. Fake Edit: Re: The apoc The apoc is fantastic. I don't have maxed skills can hit 176km optimal at 350 DPS without reloading while still running a damage control and 1600rt. And i still have more volley damage than a Megathron. It only gets better as skills top out[AWU/EGU, specs, etc]. The only thing keeping the Apoc from being hands down the best sniper[As in, best in every way] is the EHP you can cram out of a ROKH since it doesn't need any tracking modules. Re: Scorpions If you are underestimating the scorpion as an Ewar platform you are doing something wrong. Rooks and Falcons melt to anti-support, Hell, ive killed three rooks/falcons in a single fleet battle... alone in a long range battlecruiser with no points applied on two of them. Its not so easy with a scorpion. Scorpions blend into the battleship gang even with types on the overview. Rooks and Falcons? Not so much since you can run recon only overviews and never miss a beat[There are other nasty tricks to killing them as well, but i'm not divulging]. Re: Hyperion The hyperion is fine, its got a monster tank and loads of DPS. That it performs differently than a Megathron is not a problem, its a repping boat, which means is a solo/small gang boat. While the mega is more of a sniper. Test it out and you will find that it out-performs the mega when set for a repping tank against a small number of targets[Full tank double rep break point on a hyp should be around 2500+ incoming DPS vs a double plate setup(overload the reps) when properly setup] Your lows should look like lar, lar, eanm, eanm, dc, mfs Or lar, 1600rt, eanm, eanm, dc, mfs With the lars positioned to bleed the most heat from overheating. Re: Phoon Nothing wrong with the Phoon Re: Abaddon Abaddon/Geddon overlap is not great, but the Geddon can do things the Abaddon cannot[Better in an RR gang, better when going balls out in a really heavy propulsionless tank] Re: Pest Its probably the only BS now that has any major problems that can be fixed by changing the attributes on a BS.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.04.17 18:59:00 - [53] Originally by: Opertone liang - you noob Classic, coming from you. Quote: you never used kitsune... i jammed 1 scorpion 2 ravens and a dominix and they could not counter me Sigh, take 2 PVP pills and call me in the morning. You won't be permajamming any 3 battleships with the low number of mids on that Kitsune, let alone 5. Honestly, it's "cheap", but that's the only thing going for it. Quote: caldari have no point to train large hydrid turrets at all - phoenix uses torpedoes so that's a waste of 6 mill SP just for the rokh... scorpion costs 70 mill, raven 100 mill, rokh 150 mill megathrones are more prevalent on the kill boards as the killers - this is their success I'm not really sure how to respond to the pure idiocy presented here. Quote: tech 1 drones on a dominix are more affordable than a megathrone nowdays - dominx doesn't require a lot in the drones to fly it well, you only need some neuts, cap and regular drones for noob PVP support The obvious troll is obvious. -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Rethor Badus Gallente Eye Of Horus	Posted - 2008.04.17 20:16:00 - [54] sigh Im not saying that the geddon/abaddon are bad... im saying that they need more specific roles.. saying one is slightly better in gangs or solo isnt what i call true flavour.. I call Caldari diversity flavour... One ECM, One Missile, One Hybrid... But.... Amarr have 3 laser boats with almost identical stats/layouts Minmatar have 2 projectile 1 mixed Gallente have 2 hybrid 1 drone ...
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.04.17 20:47:00 - [55] Originally by: Rethor Badus sigh Im not saying that the geddon/abaddon are bad... im saying that they need more specific roles.. saying one is slightly better in gangs or solo isnt what i call true flavour.. They're fine, and the Amarrian motto has always been to let the lasers do the talking. Diversity is not Amarrian flavor, ergo, the Amarrian BS's are "flavorful". Quote: I call Caldari diversity flavour... One ECM, One Missile, One Hybrid... Caldari flavor is diversity, range, and specialization. Thus, these ships perfectly fit Caldari flavor. Quote: Minmatar have 2 projectile 1 mixed No, they have: - Mixed layout + Drones - Armor tanked AC boat - Shield tanked AC/Arty boat Honestly, I'm not sure how you can claim that Minnies aren't "diverse" enough. Quote: Gallente have 2 hybrid 1 drone - Drone - Hybrid Ganker/Drone - Tanker/Hybrid Seems fine, and nothing outside the Gallente flavor. Heck, and for "flavor", you can passive shield tank the Gallente BS's. So, what's the problem? I think the problem is that you expect all races to be specialists like Caldari. Caldari is the oddball, and many people whine to no end about Caldari because of the exact "flavor" you're saying is good. -Liang
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.17 20:49:00 - [56] Originally by: Rethor Badus Amarr have 3 laser boats with almost identical stats/layouts But how they play out is not nearly "almost identical" One is better for pure Gank/EHP short range oomph. One is a sniper. One is a remote repper or propulsionless self-repper. These are fairly different even if they all use the same weapons. That being said i wouldn't mind if one was moved to be a bit more different than the others.
Prez21 coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.04.17 20:55:00 - [57] This char can fly all bs except caldari, which is covered by my alt, however i am yet to fly the rokh and scorp on him. The hype is a nice solo boat, you do need however very good skills to get the most out of this ship, the mega has lost its role as a dual rep tanker with ions or electrons and has found its most effective role as a plated high dps boat, the dual rep setup is still affective but i believe the hype fills the role much better. As has already been said before the geddon shines in remote rep bs gangs due to its optimal range high dps and ability to fit a remote rep without loss of dps, i do believe though that the ship is similar in ways to the abaddon, the abaddon can do awesome dmg from its guns alone and can make an ideal solo plated gank bs, and still has a place in remote rep bs gangs aswel, but doesnt perform this role aswel as the geddon or mega. The advantage the abaddon has and what gives it diversity is the ships abilty to fit a very good tank which allows it to be used for different roles, such as a bait ship or anything else you can think of. Being a minnie pilot at heart the situation with the pest makes me sad, this ship has been one of the most affected ships over the last years changes, the hp buff, the ew spec and the introduction of tier 3 bs has hit the pest hardest of all the battleships, now im not saying the pest is useless, far from it, it just needs an extreme ammount of sp, some creative thinking and very good piloting skill to be able to use the ship competativly with the other bs, deffanetly not a beginner user friendly ship.
Deva Blackfire D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.04.17 21:01:00 - [58] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 17/04/2008 21:04:43 Originally by: Rethor Badus Amarr Armageddon = Good dps, decent tank.. does it do anything better than the abbadon? (here is your problem, yes it does more "dps in theory". But does less damage with guns alone), as a passive gank platform the abbadon is superior due to it having far more effective hitpoints. As an active tanker it lacks the grid to fit for alot of dps. If you ever change geddon ill rip your head and **** in your neck. Take a note of that. Geddon is perfectly fine and its superior to abaddon in multiple cases (hint: RR gangs). ninja EDIT: LC is an emo noob and still sucks donkey balls
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.04.17 21:03:00 - [59] Originally by: Deva Blackfire If you ever change geddon ill rip your head and **** in your neck. Take a note of that. Geddon is perfectly fine and its superior to abaddon in multiple cases (hint: RR gangs). Yeah, that's exactly what I was expecting to hear earlier in this thread. -Liang
Splash Whale Ctrl-Q Inc.	Posted - 2008.04.18 07:14:00 - [60] Lol @ People saying the phoon has ***e DPS. My minmatar alt has about 7m SP in gunnery and 2m in Missiles and can get the phoon over 1k dps easily with a quite good buffer tank. That is a bucketload of DPS FYI. Yes, it might be skill intensive, but all battleships are like that if you want to fly them properly. The phoon is a super duper dps monster. While you might think the split weapon platform really makes it bad, but it get's ROF bonuses which are better. Please do not think omg split weapon system it HAS to suck*. The recent torpedo buff has even made things better for the typhoon...

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