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Rethor Badus Gallente Eye Of Horus	Posted - 2008.04.16 14:20:00 - [1] Battleship Overhaul First of all lets take a look @ all 4 races & the 3 battleships within each race & the problems as a race. Amarr Armageddon = Good dps, decent tank.. does it do anything better than the abbadon? (here is your problem, yes it does more "dps in theory". But does less damage with guns alone), as a passive gank platform the abbadon is superior due to it having far more effective hitpoints. As an active tanker it lacks the grid to fit for alot of dps. Apocalypse = Has now been fixed to have a neich as a sniper (no problem & all imo) Abbadon = V.good dps, V.good tank, you have to make a choice of one or the other. (Ok, no problem in theory, as it has the same basic design as a megathron, a simple choice between dps & tank) .. but the main problem is the lack of distintion between the abbadon & a the geddon. Ignoring cost ofc, as no tier is meant to just be "Better" Solution This is the part some input would be great from you guys. Personally i believe either both ships need a minor ajustment to give them flavor, or one ship needs a total overhaul so its not stepping onto the others toes. Gallente Dominix = Drone boat, Good tank, Versatile (no problem at all, good and unique) Megathron = Great passive blaster boat, good fleet sniper. This ship is great, but again it suffers the same problem as the armageddon/abbadon. It steps onto the toes of the hyperion as the only thing the hyperion does better is activly tank (which as we know is a flawed concept for a blaster boat, as damage is paramount and if you fit for high damage your tank is subpar. Hyperion = Good active tank blaster boat, This ship is bascially pointless unles you want to tank, i cant think of many situations were i would take one of these over a dommie or a megathron (apart from bait ship, or solo with duel rep & moderate damage) Solution Exactly the same solution as the arma/abbadon, either change both a little to give them more flavour, or change one of them alot to make it unique. Again , your input would be most helpfull on this. Minmatar Typhoon = Good dps, good tank, versatile (no problem, i think this ship is very understated, maybe a little to high skill intensive, but worth the investment) Tempest = Average dps, Average tank, Good amount of extra mids/utility slots (Ok... i know im repeating myself here, but again this ship requires something to make it truly stand out against the mealstrom perhaps the possibilty of a larger damage bonus and making it a nice glass cannon?) Mealstrom = Good dps, Good tank, Poor solo ability due to tank using all mids Decent ship overall, but it almost makes using the tempest almost pointless for alot of uses apart from its cost. Solutions ^ ^ ^ ^ No need to repeat myself here, but again, more flavor, a more unique role. Caldari Scorpian = Fantastic EW platform, poor tank, poor dps (no problem, fills a great role currently unfilled by any ship) Raven = Good dps, Good tank, Poor solo (again no problem, good gank or tank, perhaps something to aid solo may be needed, but overall a very good ship. Rohk = Average DPS, Great Tank, Poor solo (fills the role as a blaster ship and a great fleet sniper) No problems with these battleships imo Solution Apart from small tweaks not much needs to be change imho. Conclusion It seems that the introduction of the tier 3 battleships overall hasnt added that much to the game (apart from the rokh), either the tier 2's need changing or the tier 3's need changing to make the ships more different. And finally.... Im not talking about any buffs/nerfs, im trying to emphasise how important true flavour is. Opinions all greatly appricaiated (if im missed anything i apologise) Regards, Rethor
Arvald Caldari Xtreme1911 Corp Night's Dawn	Posted - 2008.04.16 15:07:00 - [2] your missing quite possibly the most important difrence between them......cost an abaddon costs nearly 100m more than an apoc and a hyperion cost like 50m more than a mega
Rethor Badus Gallente Eye Of Horus	Posted - 2008.04.16 15:17:00 - [3] Originally by: Arvald your missing quite possibly the most important difrence between them......cost an abaddon costs nearly 100m more than an apoc and a hyperion cost like 50m more than a mega Tier should not mean better in every way... it should have some advanages but not simply the same ship but better... The same as a caracal costs more than a blackbird in minerals... it doesnt mean its better... its different.. Repeat after me. Different
Commander Thrawn the united Sex Panthers	Posted - 2008.04.16 15:18:00 - [4] WHINEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE I have to say that the current balance with battleships imo is the best it has been in the 3years i have played this game.
Stakhanov Metafarmers	Posted - 2008.04.16 15:18:00 - [5] You forgot to factor in prices. Geddon being twice cheaper than abaddon. Yet its hull is useful even for pimp gear (see LordChaos) The hype is very effective , especially rigged. It encroaches on the dual rep mega's role , which makes the mega more predictable nowadays (and dual rep setups more of a surprise to the enemy) but actually behaves very differently. It is more flexible thanks to the extra cpu and 5 mid slots , can be made more effective than mega against small targets (dual webs , med drones) and deals more damage as a sniper with 8 turrets , when tracking doesn't matter. The hype has more buffer for everything ; on the other hand , it has the agility of a brick compared to a mega (even plated) Pest is very underrated and good as a solo ship , it might not shine like a mega but has many niche uses. More flexible and versatile. Again , it doesn't suffer from the mael's sluggishness. Rokh is fairly unique as a pure hybrid ship , the shield tank makes it radically different from mega & hype. Was the best smartbomb ship before heavy dictors were introduced.
Rethor Badus Gallente Eye Of Horus	Posted - 2008.04.16 15:25:00 - [6] Originally by: Commander Thrawn WHINEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE I have to say that the current balance with battleships imo is the best it has been in the 3years i have played this game. Hmm, Maybe you misread... i didnt mention balanced... of couse the ships are balanced when at least 2 of each races battleships (exluding caldari) are virtually the same. Balance is farr easier when you cut out diversity. Im not asking for any buffs/nerfs, just a simple look at the lack of true diversity. In regards to the comments on cost.. well, its irrelivent to be honest... saying "oh its more expensive lets just make it better" isnt exactly making ships unique. & LordChaos does so well cuz he has a falcon alt on his wing 24/7, not sayingg anything against that, as he fights outnumbered and its the only way to take on the odds.. but 1 falcon really does tip the tables in small gang warfair.
Rethor Badus Gallente Eye Of Horus	Posted - 2008.04.16 15:29:00 - [7] Originally by: Stakhanov You forgot to factor in prices. Geddon being twice cheaper than abaddon. Yet its hull is useful even for pimp gear (see LordChaos) The hype is very effective , especially rigged. It encroaches on the dual rep mega's role , which makes the mega more predictable nowadays (and dual rep setups more of a surprise to the enemy) but actually behaves very differently. It is more flexible thanks to the extra cpu and 5 mid slots , can be made more effective than mega against small targets (dual webs , med drones) and deals more damage as a sniper with 8 turrets , when tracking doesn't matter. The hype has more buffer for everything ; on the other hand , it has the agility of a brick compared to a mega (even plated) Pest is very underrated and good as a solo ship , it might not shine like a mega but has many niche uses. More flexible and versatile. Again , it doesn't suffer from the mael's sluggishness. Rokh is fairly unique as a pure hybrid ship , the shield tank makes it radically different from mega & hype. Was the best smartbomb ship before heavy dictors were introduced. Sorry... but scince when was the mega poor against smaller targets.. it has a large drone bay & a tracking bonus... Not to mention if it isnt the standard plate nuetron setup it has ions/electrons which track perfectly well on a single webbed target (even better now as people never use void and only faction ammo in web range).. In regards to the fact the mealstrom is v.different to the pest... well... lets be honest... it really isnt that different.. One shield tanks, one armour tanks.., that really isnt that different, yes the pest is a little bit faster, but has to fit armour rigs if tanked (bye bye speed boost) ahem...
AnKahn Caldari Occassus Republica DeStInY.	Posted - 2008.04.16 15:47:00 - [8] I will repeat something that was said by another poster on another thread. We need something that is a step up size/power wise from battleships, below Capitals. This class of ship should be able to use jump gates and dock. It should be slow and need protecting. Should not in any way be s super solo pwn mobile. Should be restricted from using the deadspace gates so not an uber missioning ship. This type of ship would cut down on the time it takes to get a large fleet rooling, and help with mobility. And frankly the transition between a fight with and without cap ships would not be so jarring. Combined with a reasonable speed nerf and maybe there would be something inbetween skirmish warfare and cap ship node crashing lag fest fleet battles. Perhaps allow for some anti blobing. Not sure. I am sure the forum vets will have an opinion.
Madla Mafia The Dead Man's Hand	Posted - 2008.04.16 15:54:00 - [9] Originally by: Rethor Badus Armageddon = Good dps, decent tank.. Hmmmm, no. Good dps or decent tank... ------------------------------------------ Amarr - getting screwed since 2005.
Sqalevon Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.04.16 15:55:00 - [10] The battleship balancing went out the window when ship insurance makes the loss less painfull. And the devaluation of ISK ( ISK vs time ) doesnt help either.
TimMc Gallente Genos Occidere	Posted - 2008.04.16 15:56:00 - [11] If you are going to point out problems, at least point out solutions. Eg, making the geddon into a Khinad ship with torp bonuses. But personally I don't think the mega and hyperion are similar enough to warrent changing. Gallente don't have another weapon type to use here anyway.
Jin Entres Malevolent Intervention Reavers.	Posted - 2008.04.16 16:11:00 - [12] Balance isn't that bad. Tempest could use a little help, though. A seventh turret slot and/or one hi moved to mid would be my preferred buffs. Minmatar are the crappiest at long range due to both inherent inferiority of artillery to lasers and hybrids aswell as unsuitable ships (maelstrom's active tanking bonus, tempest lacking in damage). The 7th turret hardpoint is self-explanatory, but the hi to mid would provide an extra SB/TC to encourage sniping, aswell as allow more utility for the ship with autocannons when it cannot compete in pure gank or tank (ie fit ECCM or tracking disruptor or ECM etc). But both might be too much (or at least we would need a more detailed comparison of the ships' capabilities and slots etc to justify it). --- CEO
Ath Amon	Posted - 2008.04.16 16:13:00 - [13] Edited by: Ath Amon on 16/04/2008 16:15:07 arma vs ab mostly agree, ab is superior ship, arma can have its niche but is a very small one :p what i think hurt this ship the most is that it is supposed to be closest range amarr bs, but for this kind of engagements MWD is almost mandatory and it kinda offset it weapon cap bonus, also compared to ab i find it kinda low of cpu rather than pg. mega vs hype (dont fly them :P) they are both good ship, but i see mega bit more efficent on mid size gangs while hype prob better for very small gangs and ehm "solo" the hype problem is due to its tank bonus that becomes kinda useless in mid size/logistic gangs minnies (i fly them a lot :P whinage mode on :P) dont agree much here phoon... it is not really a versatile ship, it is sort of specialized close range ship, most of its versatility can come from bigger drone bay or a spare mid, but is quite limited anyway and is kinda offset by split weapon that lack synergy. dps is not that good due to ebil split weapon system so is very problematic to upgrade ships dps to a good gankage level tank it have the low slots to fit a good armor tank but also it have more shield hps than armor is also a very problematic ship to fit as it easy to fall short of pg (active tanking) or cpu (gank or "ew oriented" setups) not a bad ship (imo the best minnie bs atm) but as a specialized armor close range ship i feel it is just falls behind to both gall and amarr ones by a good shot Mael have the same "problem" of hype, it is also a bit of a brick for a minnie ship, anyway is a good ship in very small gangs, but with larger numbers its active shield bonus is kinda useless Tempest, i disagree about the fact that Mael killed it, what killed this ship is the "specialization route" that the game got, this was always a ship that lived on it EW capabilities, as various EW become very specialized the ship was not able enymore to keep up with its counterparts, also the changes to rigs and hps kinda hit it too, it was always a fragile ship and with these changes the difference is way more noticeable caldari i mostly agree i feel too that scorp falls kinda short for its role but is a ship that risk to be really OP so is something to handle with caution :P Originally by: Diana Merris Unfortunately, rather than address the slot layout/tanking issues for Minmatar the Devs have simple declared that it makes us "versitile".
Anubis Xian Vertigo One	Posted - 2008.04.16 18:21:00 - [14] If you want to improve the Armageddon, take two of its lows (yes I said two) and move them to midslot. I'm sure I'm not the only person who wouldn't mind a decent solo Amarr BS. Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal. Juggernauts
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.04.16 19:46:00 - [15] Originally by: Rethor Badus Amarr Leave the Geddon alone. Maybe internalize cap use to cap amount on the ship and give it a different bonus - but don't change its role. Quote: Gallente - Domi fittings suck. I know it's on purpose, but it's annoying as sin. - Hype is ok, but it really needs another low to make it really stand out (IMO). -1 mid, +1 low. Quote: Matari - Phoon: It is not versatile, both because of WTF gimped fittings and the 4/4 slot layout. Increasing fittings would help it actually fit something, and a 5/5 slot layout would alleviate the completely insane SP requirement to use the ship. I'm not sure how things would turn out if both were adjusted simultaneously. - Pest: The ship needs something, it's true. There's popping up dozens of threads about this, and I'm sure my views will vary by thread (mostly because it's such a delicate thing to get right!). No matter how it goes, unless you shield tank the Pest, it's DPS sucks due to the naturally low damage of projectiles and "low" number of turrets. Quote: Caldari - Scorpion: WTF? Poor tank? The Scorp with 8 mids can hit 200k EHP easily, or tank a few thousand DPS with just T2. Or it can jam several ships at 200km. Additionally, the Scorpion is the only 100% dedicated PVP BS. Quote: More flavor, less buffs/nerfs I don't really see anything in the current ship roles that conflicts with my views of the races. Really, the Geddon, Tempest, Raven, and Domi/Megathron are the currently "iconic" ships that exemplify the individual races (disregarding the general suckage from the Minnie BS lineup). -Liang
Haradgrim Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION	Posted - 2008.04.16 19:49:00 - [16] my eyes!~
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.04.16 20:23:00 - [17] Originally by: Haradgrim my eyes!~ I know that everyone complains about walls of text, but paragraphs are good too. I mean, nobody wants to read a piece of text that looks something like this, you know? It just gets distracting in the extreme, and kinda detracts from the overall visual a p e a l of the post. -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Karash Amerius Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.04.16 21:37:00 - [18] Can someone explain to me why people think the Scorpian is a "fantastic ECM platform" when the Falcon does everything a Scorp does, but so much better? "Fighting Broke" - An Ex-Merc Blog
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.04.16 21:52:00 - [19] Edited by: Gamesguy on 16/04/2008 21:52:27 Originally by: Karash Amerius Can someone explain to me why people think the Scorpian is a "fantastic ECM platform" when the Falcon does everything a Scorp does, but so much better? People are still thinking like its 2006. Scorps havent been "fantastic ecm platform" for a long time.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates	Posted - 2008.04.16 21:59:00 - [20] Edited by: James Lyrus on 16/04/2008 22:00:52 Scorps used to be top of the line ECM platforms. Now... well, they're still worth using: More lowslots than any other ECM ship. More mids than any other ECM ship. Battleship sized cap. Battleship sized effective hitpoints. Battleship sized powergrid. An extra rigslot the fact that it's basically 'free' doesn't hurt much either. Oh, and of course it's much easier to use. But no, the Scorpion's primary role has been taken by the Rook or Falcon (depending slightly if you're leaning more to the 'anti-support dps' in the form of launchers, or if you feel that surviving is better, and therefore cloaking). It's still the only ewar BS though. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking?
Karash Amerius Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.04.16 22:10:00 - [21] Edited by: Karash Amerius on 16/04/2008 22:11:42 It might be the only "EW Battleship" but I cannot fathom why anyone would use one. If you take 2 sensor boosters and a MWD for the scorp (to reach 250km), both ships have 5 ECM slots. The Falcon is: faster, more nimble, locks faster, can cloak, can move full speed and cloaked, can travel solo, can use black ops generated bridge, can cyno in the cap calvary, is pretty much invulnerable in the 200-250km range. Plus the ability to wait till the fleet engages, uncloak at 230km and lock down multiple ships. If there is any Scorpian pilot flying that bird for "EW uberness", then they need to get their head checked. As soon as you fit a Scorpian with ECMs you disregard tank and DPS anyhow...so why NOT fly a Falcon? Makes no sense. Edit: bad cut/paste "Fighting Broke" - An Ex-Merc Blog
Morthis Rygal Gallente Garoun Investment Bank	Posted - 2008.04.16 22:30:00 - [22] Originally by: Karash Amerius Edited by: Karash Amerius on 16/04/2008 22:11:42 It might be the only "EW Battleship" but I cannot fathom why anyone would use one. If you take 2 sensor boosters and a MWD for the scorp (to reach 250km), both ships have 5 ECM slots. The Falcon is: faster, more nimble, locks faster, can cloak, can move full speed and cloaked, can travel solo, can use black ops generated bridge, can cyno in the cap calvary, is pretty much invulnerable in the 200-250km range. Plus the ability to wait till the fleet engages, uncloak at 230km and lock down multiple ships. If there is any Scorpian pilot flying that bird for "EW uberness", then they need to get their head checked. As soon as you fit a Scorpian with ECMs you disregard tank and DPS anyhow...so why NOT fly a Falcon? Makes no sense. Edit: bad cut/paste Only thing i can think of is that a BS is way easier to train for than a recon. Still, there's also the blackbird that is way cheaper as an ewar platform and a more natural step to prepare for the falcon.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.04.16 23:53:00 - [23] Originally by: Karash Amerius If there is any Scorpian pilot flying that bird for "EW uberness", then they need to get their head checked. As soon as you fit a Scorpian with ECMs you disregard tank and DPS anyhow...so why NOT fly a Falcon? Makes no sense. It's free, and can survive being primaried. -Liang
Arthur Frayn V.O.F.L IRON CORE	Posted - 2008.04.17 03:47:00 - [24] Edited by: Arthur Frayn on 17/04/2008 03:53:36 Originally by: Liang Nuren Leave the Geddon alone. Maybe internalize cap use to cap amount on the ship and give it a different bonus - but don't change its role. Do Amarr really need another Apoc? Originally by: Liang Nuren It's free, and can survive being primaried. In what universe does a Scorpion(that isn't being permarepped by several Basilisks, Guardians, shield and armor drones) have a whelk's chance in a supernova of surviving being called primary? And if you're referring to a remote-repped Scorpion like I mentioned, a repped Falcon or Rook will do a better job anyway.
DroneBay Diva AbChao Synchr0nicity	Posted - 2008.04.17 04:04:00 - [25] Wall of text, but really, theres nothing wrong with most of the BS in the game. _____________________________________________________________________________
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.04.17 04:05:00 - [26] Originally by: Rethor Badus Originally by: Arvald your missing quite possibly the most important difrence between them......cost an abaddon costs nearly 100m more than an apoc and a hyperion cost like 50m more than a mega Tier should not mean better in every way... it should have some advanages but not simply the same ship but better... The same as a caracal costs more than a blackbird in minerals... it doesnt mean its better... its different.. Repeat after me. Different I'd say that the Caracal is the better ship in a vague general sense. Most of the average player's time in Eve is spent on the long PVE grind for cash to get the next big thing or replace the inevitable losses that occur all to often. The Caracal is by far the better PVE platform and it isn't exactly a slouch in PVP either. Of course, from a PVP standpoint I'll completely agree with your statement, and i'm QUITE glad Blackbirds are so cheap as I tend to lose them quite frequently.
Siakel	Posted - 2008.04.17 04:12:00 - [27] Ehh.... IMO the Abaddon is the ship that needs to be re-done, the Armageddon is the better ship as-is, anyway. Slightly more DPS, slightly less EHP(If both use 3 Heatsinks, HP/DPS balance can swing either way depending on how many each uses), better cap stability, highslot for the remote rep (Very important), the only things it doesn't do better than the Abaddon are active tanks and tackling. Neither of which is really important to what the ships do in gangs, anyway.
Malcore Trisus Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.04.17 04:18:00 - [28] What everyone including the OP seems to be missing is that the geddon is the best battleship for remote rep gangs period. With T2 Heavy Drones, T2 Mega Pulses, and a utility slot for a remote rep it absolutely rapes. It's DPS advantage over the abaddon is magnified even more if the abaddon has to drop a gun for its rep. It's better then any other remote rep because it does 1000 dps with a 45km optimal.
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.04.17 04:22:00 - [29] Originally by: Arthur Frayn Originally by: Liang Nuren It's free, and can survive being primaried. In what universe does a Scorpion(that isn't being permarepped by several Basilisks, Guardians, shield and armor drones) have a whelk's chance in a supernova of surviving being called primary? And if you're referring to a remote-repped Scorpion like I mentioned, a repped Falcon or Rook will do a better job anyway. No matter how much remote repair you put on a Recon it won't survive being focused. A battleship has enough buffer to make use of it. A battleship has also more firepower. All in all the Recons are superior for the ECM job alone, but the scorpion can hit harder, ECM almost as good, and tank much better. On the top of that, thanks to the insurance, it is free, like mentioned several times in this thread. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Arthur Frayn V.O.F.L IRON CORE	Posted - 2008.04.17 04:26:00 - [30] Originally by: Etho Demerzel No matter how much remote repair you put on a Recon it won't survive being focused. A battleship has enough buffer to make use of it. A battleship has also more firepower. All in all the Recons are superior for the ECM job alone, but the scorpion can hit harder, ECM almost as good, and tank much better. On the top of that, thanks to the insurance, it is free, like mentioned several times in this thread. I'll concede the insurance makes it a good choice along with the HP buffer, but in my experience, it still doesn't last long. And an ECM fitted Scorp has negligible firepower. -- Eve needs a dose of Top Gun without the sweaty shower scenes.

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