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Firebolt145
The Hatchery
0
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Posted - 2011.09.08 21:49:00 -
[1] - Quote
You realise in Assault you can just keep taking gates until you get to the final pocket, then you only have to kill the five ships on the left, right?
I'm not going to go into details on missioning etc on the forums where there are trolls everywhere but...you're doing it wrong. Very wrong. |
Firebolt145
The Hatchery
0
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Posted - 2011.09.09 10:59:00 -
[2] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Shadowsword wrote:If you think the Golem is the best mission ship, you've never seen a proper Nightmare or Machariel in action. Golem and CNR are still the best all-purpose mission ships. The Nightmare and Mach are better for special uses (notably against EM-weak and Kn/Epl-weak rats, respectively), but they also have distinct drawbacks if you pit them against something outside that specialisation. No. Just no. |
Firebolt145
The Hatchery
0
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Posted - 2011.09.09 14:52:00 -
[3] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Firebolt145 wrote:No. Just no. Oh really? Anyway, yes. I was referring to the Mach comment btw. I have not flown a Nightmare and will not pretend to be an expert on it.
DPS-wise, a Mach uses autocannons and can simply switch ammo to EMP to do the exact same damage amount, so you can't have been talking about DPS with that statement. The only reason why one would consider a Mach strong against Angels and weak against Sansha etc is its tank being shield - thus it is slightly 'weaker' against EM/therm unless you plug it up, on paper.
However, 99% of missioners vastly overtank their missioning ships anyway. I get by with a shield booster and two general invulnerability field II's on my Mach for all missions and that total of 3 tank-related mod is enough to keep my mach above 75% shields and capacity for all missions including Sansha etc without sweat. This means tanking is no longer a limiting factor towards my missioning efficiency.
So that leaves DPS and speed - two things the Mach has plenty of irrespectively of what I'm attacking. |
Firebolt145
The Hatchery
0
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Posted - 2011.09.09 15:53:00 -
[4] - Quote
EMP doesn't cut down the range at all - you should be using either EMP, PP or Fusion, all of which have the same range already.
If you mission in Amarr space, then yes you should be using a nightmare because I'd imagine you get a lot more Sansha missions where you need that range. But in Minmatar space, the only Sansha missions you get are the Slave Traders pair. In both of those you start at <30km and kill the necessary ships before they burn out of range.
If you're going to argue that Nightmare and Mach have their places in the universe of EVE location-wise then yes I agree. Golems and CNRs etc can probably work everywhere due to missiles whereas the Nightmare is better suited in Amarr and the Mach is better suited in Minmatar. But saying the Mach and Nightmare are only for special uses and that it is better to switch ship depending on the mission because the Mach isn't good for super-duper long distance is just ridiculous. |
Firebolt145
The Hatchery
0
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Posted - 2011.09.09 20:33:00 -
[5] - Quote
Tippia, are you actually saying that the Raven does more dps than a Mach overall in some missions? Have you actually flown a Mach? We haven't even talked about the fact that the Raven can't damage frigates for **** while a Mach 1 shots each of them from 70km away every 3 seconds.
edit: just did some efting of my own.
http://i.imgur.com/DAjHD.png
Top lines are attacking a mach and second is attacking a cynabal (just random examples of attacking a battleship or a cruiser). According to this a Raven outdpses a mach on a battleship at 70km and on a cruiser at around 105km (lol).
For the raven I used this fit which I stole from Battleclinic. Ignoring the hull cost, it is about the same range of 'pimp' as my Mach fit.
[Raven, Lv4 Mission Raven] Capacitor Flux Coil II Capacitor Flux Coil II Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Photon Scattering Field II Photon Scattering Field II Heat Dissipation Field II Gist B-Type Large Shield Booster Shield Boost Amplifier II Shield Boost Amplifier II
Cruise Missile Launcher II Cruise Missile Launcher II Cruise Missile Launcher II Cruise Missile Launcher II Cruise Missile Launcher II Cruise Missile Launcher II Small Tractor Beam I Salvager I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst I Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst I
Hammerhead II Hobgoblin II
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Comparing my mach fit to this raven (ignoring dps) we get about the same tank and I have an mwd which makes me go at 1.5kmps. Even if you take out a tank mod (thus making it worst than the mach at taking lol) and putting in an mwd the Raven still only gets 800mps.
I have no idea where you are getting the idea that the Raven is better than the Mach in ANY situation. |
Firebolt145
The Hatchery
0
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Posted - 2011.09.09 20:54:00 -
[6] - Quote
Edited my post to insert some new data just as you posted Tippia. And saying AC range is limited is understandable when looking at some ships, but not when looking at the Mach. |
Firebolt145
The Hatchery
0
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Posted - 2011.09.09 21:08:00 -
[7] - Quote
If you look at the EFT graph I linked, I'm considering worst case scenario already for tracking (going in complete opposite directions).
edit: Tippia I'm not using guesses or random gut estimations when I give information. I have numbers to back me up everywhere. If you can show me a graph where a Raven outdpses a Mach in a realistic situation within a reasonable range then I'll admit you are right and there is a situation where the Mach loses to the Raven. Until then, it's just empty words.
edit2: Just saw your own edit, this is getting confusing lol.
You're right, I had forgotten we were debating a CNR. Gimme a sec. |
Firebolt145
The Hatchery
0
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Posted - 2011.09.09 21:31:00 -
[8] - Quote
http://i.imgur.com/0Kom0.png
Much better numbers for the CNR, but still doesn't win it. Mach will always out-dps the CNR up till 53km on battleships regardless of transversal.
WRT Cruiser dps, this graph is already assuming worst case scenario for the Mach. Once I set transversal to 0 (which is much more likely with rats racing towards you) the Mach outdpses on the Cruiser until 73km (I have taken the TP into account).
Saying speed doesn't matter is being ignorant. Many missions require you to zoom zoom here or zoom zoom there. Who cares if you can kill everything if it takes you longer to get to the next pocket's gate?
Anyway, here are fits. Once again I've stolen the best-rated CNR fit on Battleclinic. Once again tank numbers are about the same, and obviously speed differences are same as stated for the Raven.
[Raven Navy Issue, Raven Navy Issue: Proper CNR mission fit] Power Diagnostic System II Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Cap Recharger II Caldari Navy Shield Boost Amplifier Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field Pithum A-Type Medium Shield Booster Republic Fleet Target Painter
Caldari Navy Cruise Missile Launcher, Paradise Cruise Missile Caldari Navy Cruise Missile Launcher, Paradise Cruise Missile Caldari Navy Cruise Missile Launcher, Paradise Cruise Missile Caldari Navy Cruise Missile Launcher, Paradise Cruise Missile Caldari Navy Cruise Missile Launcher, Paradise Cruise Missile Caldari Navy Cruise Missile Launcher, Paradise Cruise Missile Caldari Navy Cruise Missile Launcher, Paradise Cruise Missile Drone Link Augmentor I
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst I Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst I Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
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[Machariel, Ideal Mach] Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Gist C-Type 100MN MicroWarpdrive Gist C-Type X-Large Shield Booster Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range
800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L Small Tractor Beam I
Large Core Defence Capacitor Safeguard I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Warrior II x10 Warrior II x5
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I am using Paradise Cruise Missiles for the CNR as I assume they are somewhat the equivalent of cheap non-faction ammo (like EMP). I have not taken drones into account in any of these comparisons. Also, the CNR fit I have linked is so ridiculously pimped I am laughing, that would be huge SG-bait. I am not sure how you'd bring up the DPS on that thing short of getting rid of a tank mod and putting on another TP. Please don't make me EFT that as well. |
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