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Seth Quantix Domination. Scorched Earth.	Posted - 2008.04.18 11:42:00 - [61] Originally by: Tassi It completely depends on your definition of "winning". Band of Brothers have publically "boasted" out promises and "goals" which were all thwarted by GoonSwarm. I would define this as a win. Although you could see it like that, GoonSwarm are losers but BoB are even bigger ones simple fact are. the goons and alliaes are folding. BoB is growning and expanding, also.. Did bob set a time frame? Goons did, we dine in nol tonight, turned out to be a picnic and some ****** forgot the diet coke!
Tassi Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2008.04.18 11:45:00 - [62] Edited by: Tassi on 18/04/2008 11:46:49 Originally by: Seth Quantix simple fact are. Simple fact is that GoonSwarm has more territorial control political control combined with their allies (directly linked to political control) more military power on eve, which means that all goals BoB published on these forums when the war with GoonSwarm started that the goons have won, by thwarting all of BoB's propaganda goals.
Melpheus Rax Disco Biscuits	Posted - 2008.04.18 11:57:00 - [63] In that case I'm sure BoB's days are numbered. Any day now......Coalition will win a fleet fight.....
Rod Blaine Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.04.18 11:58:00 - [64] Originally by: Amanda Blue Ok you explained that part already. But used in conjunction with several titans how is a support fleet suppose to take it down? I'm sure if the shoe was on the other foot, it would effect you the same way. It would affect us too yes. Altho it's probably possible to take down a jammer defended by just 5 titans and nothing much else tbh. It does get awfully hard if there's also 50 carriers and 250 other ships sitting on the gates and at the jammer. So, you take your fleet, and bridge it next to/ in to the next best stationsystem that hasn't got 5 titans 50 carriers and a 250 man fleet in it and shoot the ******* jammer down even if it means half your fleet is nuked by pos guns. win The fact that it's exceedingly hard (seriously hard, like, nearly impossible) to take a system defended by 5 titans, 50 carriers and 250 other ships is not a problem in itself. Because not every system can be defended that way in practice, and not even a single system can be defended that way all the time. So there's always a few options open to you: 1. make sure they don't know you're coming at all. 2. make sure they don't know when you are coming. 3. make sure they don't know where you are coming. Any of the above, if done well, is win. Remember though, it needs to be done well. You can't take an hour to form up a 250+ gang if you don't want anyone to know you're coming. You can't take 3 hours to get to the target system 10 jumps away. And you can't let all your people know where they're going. In short, you'll need to communicate, coordinate, and risk your stuff to do it well. Well, either that or own your enemy so hard for a few weeks straight that they're too damn tired to show up for defence. That works too.
fuze Gallente InfoMorph Services Ltd	Posted - 2008.04.18 12:03:00 - [65] Originally by: Rod Blaine Do you need us to hold your hand and come FC your fleet for you or what ? Let me clarify something. When it comes to me disliking Bob or Goons it was a close call. But the whole 'Txx' incident made it topple in Bobs 'favor'. So no I'm not a Goon alt. Just some nobody who's been interested into politics from the days CSF was destroyed because of warmongering (and greed). Some of the younger players here might find it funny that the Bob region used to be carebear heaven. If you look at the history of Eve a lot of the major shifts in power were caused by changes CCP made in the Eve realm. And anyone who adapts to these changes the quickest has the advantage. And like I said before no Bob would ever admit that game mechanics is the major part why the coalition couldn't take down that jammer. The claim is that its not a problem to take down a jammer but you keep forgetting that its not being guarded by the same amount of forces Bob had. And comparing these two entirely different situations is pretty moot. Pherhaps if Bob tries to take down any Tortuaga jammer they will start to understand what the real problem is.
Hey You Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.04.18 12:06:00 - [66] Originally by: Amanda Blue Originally by: Rod Blaine Originally by: Amanda Blue So you're saying that your alliance would still have space in 0.0 pre-cynojammer? F-T wasn't cynojammed was it ? 49- isn't, 3btk isn't, qy6 isn't, 9cg isn't. It takes the whole of 7-8 minutes to take down a cynojammer. After those 7-8 minutes you can jump in your complete arsenal of capitals and supercapitals. How ******* easy do you need it to be ? Ok you explained that part already. But used in conjunction with several titans how is a support fleet suppose to take it down? I'm sure if the shoe was on the other foot, it would effect you the same way. But you keep forgetting that Coalition have several titans. Goons have 1, TCF have 1, RA have 5. Whole coalition have 15 of them. What stopped them from defending cyno jammers? Let me tell you what. You form up a fleet and you don't announce which target you are after. Then you jump bridge in with no defenders and pwn jammer in 5 minutes. It is as simple as that.
Rod Blaine Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.04.18 12:09:00 - [67] Edited by: Rod Blaine on 18/04/2008 12:11:27 Originally by: fuze The claim is that its not a problem to take down a jammer but you keep forgetting that its not being guarded by the same amount of forces Bob had. And comparing these two entirely different situations is pretty moot. Pherhaps if Bob tries to take down any Tortuaga jammer they will start to understand what the real problem is. Oh, don't worry. We'll take down a tortuga jammer sometime. Can't promise you a time frame, nor that it'll be defended to it's full potential. However, I assume you would agree that Tortuga, certainly now that they are blue to goons again (lol), has what it takes to defend their jammer pos in such a way that it falls within the "omg flawed!" category of nberness ? Because if so, then no matter how we do it, their potential defence is equal to ours right ? Eve warfare isn't just about potential, it's about making the potential happen when it's needed. There's nothing we do that the coalition can't potentially do just as well. But there's alot we can do to make it damn hard for them to actually make it happen. We've seen what the difference in realised potential is when we're defending. soon we'll see the difference when we're attacking.
Amanda Blue Gallente	Posted - 2008.04.18 12:13:00 - [68] Originally by: Rod Blaine Originally by: Amanda Blue Ok you explained that part already. But used in conjunction with several titans how is a support fleet suppose to take it down? I'm sure if the shoe was on the other foot, it would effect you the same way. It would affect us too yes. Altho it's probably possible to take down a jammer defended by just 5 titans and nothing much else tbh. It does get awfully hard if there's also 50 carriers and 250 other ships sitting on the gates and at the jammer. So, you take your fleet, and bridge it next to/ in to the next best stationsystem that hasn't got 5 titans 50 carriers and a 250 man fleet in it and shoot the ******* jammer down even if it means half your fleet is nuked by pos guns. win The fact that it's exceedingly hard (seriously hard, like, nearly impossible) to take a system defended by 5 titans, 50 carriers and 250 other ships is not a problem in itself. Because not every system can be defended that way in practice, and not even a single system can be defended that way all the time. So there's always a few options open to you: 1. make sure they don't know you're coming at all. 2. make sure they don't know when you are coming. 3. make sure they don't know where you are coming. Any of the above, if done well, is win. Remember though, it needs to be done well. You can't take an hour to form up a 250+ gang if you don't want anyone to know you're coming. You can't take 3 hours to get to the target system 10 jumps away. And you can't let all your people know where they're going. In short, you'll need to communicate, coordinate, and risk your stuff to do it well. Well, either that or own your enemy so hard for a few weeks straight that they're too damn tired to show up for defence. That works too. Thanks Rod. I believe it can be done if coordinated well & enough pilots willing to risk it. I know given the resources of your alliance, that other alliances will be coping what you have done there, if not already working on it. I believe it to be standard for 0.0 system defense now. I also believe that 0.0 space has become more static now because of it & it has taken a little away from the spirit of EvE, but that's just me thinking. Your alliance has time & time again shown what can be done given the resources, but whatever happened to 100 v 100 man fleet fights where the merits of every pilot in a alliance comes into play instead of a the few? Guess that's too 2006/2007??
VinkNut Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2008.04.18 12:16:00 - [69] Edited by: VinkNut on 18/04/2008 12:15:52
Rod Blaine Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.04.18 12:16:00 - [70] CCP needs to reintroduce financial attrition and worthwhile targets for those 100 man gangs for those fights to become common again. other topic tho. So, guess we're done here. I declare this thread owned.
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.04.18 12:17:00 - [71] Originally by: Amanda Blue Ok you explained that part already. But used in conjunction with several titans how is a support fleet suppose to take it down? I'm sure if the shoe was on the other foot, it would effect you the same way. Cynojammers are pretty easy to knock out. Only coalition had problems because they never understood the whole point of a cynojammer was not to incap it, rather it was to stop the opponent from putting a defence around it. System hopping tactics no longer work in cynojammed systems, since the whole point of a cynojammer was to turn pos warfare into a proper seige insted of a "hit and run while other side sleeps". I call rubbish to your comment about 'If the shoe was in our foot'. In QY6, we decided not to abdondon system and kept our capital hardware in system, thus removing any incentive for the defenders to repair a jammer that would take 1 minute to kill from a bunch of dreads. Mistake Coalition did was to abandon bob Cynojammed system after incaping the jammer, thus letting us freely repair and place whatever defence we wanted to it until all our pos's came out of reinforced. What Coalition should have done was fight tooth and nail to attempt to stop us ever taking control of the system, insted, they did the old "drop pos and leave system" Tactical blunder that even rookies relise is not that effective today.
Jake Noble Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.04.18 12:20:00 - [72] Edited by: Jake Noble on 18/04/2008 12:22:34 Edited by: Jake Noble on 18/04/2008 12:22:06 THE MISTAKE THE COALITION MADE WAS BY NOT BLUE'ING BOB CALLING DIS NOW Theres way too many serious responses to such a dumb thread.
Aeon Yakati Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.04.18 12:24:00 - [73] There's not just a dozen conquerable stations and even more NPC stations (sometimes with NPC cyno jammer!) inbetween the Goons and victory, but also just about 500 POS.
Amanda Blue Gallente	Posted - 2008.04.18 12:25:00 - [74] Originally by: Lord WarATron Edited by: Lord WarATron on 18/04/2008 12:20:42 Originally by: Amanda Blue Ok you explained that part already. But used in conjunction with several titans how is a support fleet suppose to take it down? I'm sure if the shoe was on the other foot, it would effect you the same way. Cynojammers are pretty easy to knock out. Only coalition had problems because they never understood the whole point of a cynojammer was not to incap it, rather it was to stop the opponent from putting a defence around it. System hopping tactics no longer work in cynojammed systems, since the whole point of a cynojammer was to turn pos warfare into a proper seige insted of a "hit and run while other side sleeps". I call rubbish to your comment about 'If the shoe was in our foot'. In QY6, we decided not to abandon system after incapping the jammer and kept our capital hardware in system, thus removing any incentive for the defenders to repair a jammer that would take 1 minute to kill from a bunch of dreads (oh wait, you saying that dreads instadie from these "auto-targeting fighters" or from Titan doomsdays?). Mistake Coalition did was to abandon bob Cynojammed system after incaping the jammer, thus letting us freely repair and place whatever defence we wanted to it until all our pos's came out of reinforced. What Coalition should have done was fight tooth and nail to attempt to stop us ever taking control of the system, insted, they did the old "drop pos and leave system" Tactical blunder that even rookies relise is not that effective today. I agree with you there. They should of brought a ton of capitals in, especially in your capital system.
King Fury Caldari Fury Corp.	Posted - 2008.04.18 12:27:00 - [75] Originally by: Tholarim I heard bob are arrogant, c/d? You mean arrogant Knob Jockeys
Jake Noble Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.04.18 12:29:00 - [76] Originally by: King Fury Originally by: Tholarim I heard bob are arrogant, c/d? You mean arrogant Knob Jockeys c
fuze Gallente InfoMorph Services Ltd	Posted - 2008.04.18 12:34:00 - [77] Edited by: fuze on 18/04/2008 12:34:52 Originally by: Rod Blaine Eve warfare isn't just about potential, it's about making the potential happen when it's needed. There's nothing we do that the coalition can't potentially do just as well. But there's alot we can do to make it damn hard for them to actually make it happen. We've seen what the difference in realised potential is when we're defending. soon we'll see the difference when we're attacking. So far I've been impressed more by RA's defense than by Bobs. Who knows Tortuga will impress us both. But you can't compare Bob with any other alliance. Having the most vets and powerplayers means you'll always have more potential. Also makes the claim of being better moot. Anyone who spent more time in Eve always has and will have the upper hand. That's one of the the axiom of any MMO. But it also means that in order to keep it up you have to keep spending a lot of time. This will continue to strain your RL and make you burn out faster.
thoth foc Arcane Technologies The Five	Posted - 2008.04.18 12:44:00 - [78] Originally by: Tassi Edited by: Tassi on 18/04/2008 11:46:49 Originally by: Seth Quantix simple fact are. Simple fact is that GoonSwarm has more territorial control political control combined with their allies (directly linked to political control) more military power on eve, which means that all goals BoB published on these forums when the war with GoonSwarm started that the goons have won, by thwarting all of BoB's propaganda goals. I would like to see you justify these claims.. territorial control, goons have more non contested space agreed, but i guess it depends what you define as "control".. in the last few weeks they have failed to keep any of their POS's alive in 319.. a system we're shooting them in just for ****s and giggles.. they maintain space no one else is currently interested in, but fail when someone stands against them, wouldnt be my definition of control.. political control, this extends as far as not being able to get their allies to help them in delve currently.. they have been forced to look to MC(lol) again for help.. I would agree if you combine the entire coalition they have the most military power.. I'm not really sure it is a relevant measure though..
bitters much Nekkid Inc.	Posted - 2008.04.18 12:47:00 - [79] Gungan, what have you done Now we have to read every sides spin another time, give it a rest. We all know by now that BOB will come out on top because: - the southern coalition didnt had enough numbers - the nothern napfest had mining lasers instead of turrets fitted - CYVOK is Molle`s alt
King Fury Caldari Fury Corp.	Posted - 2008.04.18 12:48:00 - [80] How can the biggest land/space loss Eve has ever seen (5 regions) be considered a victory? All you crow about now is taking a cyno jam system, it used to be you could take entire regions now you have problems with 1 system. The only battlefield you dominate again and again are the forums with lies and hatred. Poor Bitter Bobbits
Jadzia Blue Department of Truth Enhancement	Posted - 2008.04.18 13:54:00 - [81] Originally by: thoth foc I would like to see you justify these claims.. territorial control, goons have more non contested space agreed, but i guess it depends what you define as "control".. in the last few weeks they have failed to keep any of their POS's alive in 319.. a system we're shooting them in just for ****s and giggles.. they maintain space no one else is currently interested in, but fail when someone stands against them, wouldnt be my definition of control.. political control, this extends as far as not being able to get their allies to help them in delve currently.. they have been forced to look to MC(lol) again for help.. I would agree if you combine the entire coalition they have the most military power.. I'm not really sure it is a relevant measure though.. You know, if you ever get bored with what you're doing, the Department of Truth Enhancement is recruiting. After reading this post, I see you're the kind of person I want for DTE.
Aeon Yakati Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.04.18 14:00:00 - [82] Originally by: King Fury How can the biggest land/space loss Eve has ever seen (5 regions) be considered a victory? All you crow about now is taking a cyno jam system, it used to be you could take entire regions now you have problems with 1 system. The only battlefield you dominate again and again are the forums with lies and hatred. Poor Bitter Bobbits I'm so bitter we're not taking space back fast enough against the biggest Napfest/coalition EVE has ever seen! So bitter! Wish I was in the great Fury Corporation, making EVE history!
SirMolle Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.04.18 14:04:00 - [83] Guys, get off the retoric discussions and log in, the regroup was 20 mins ago. Chop chop slackers
Romanes EuntDomus Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2008.04.18 14:08:00 - [84] Originally by: SirMolle Guys, get off the retoric discussions and log in, the regroup was 20 mins ago. Chop chop slackers I would Molle but iam stuck at work for 3 more hours and wife will nag me for another hour when i get home before i can log in ps: any chance of a bridge from 319 later
Princess Jodi Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2008.04.18 15:53:00 - [85] This perspective is from one of the smaller players in this war. The analysis that The Coalition did not have the same goals or unity that Bob has is spot on. From Rule of Three's perspective, the choice to join the Coalition side came from 2 places: MC's invasion of the North and from our corp's past history with Fix pre-Bob Pet. We fought with Razor, MM, Iron et al against the MPire of Fatally Fallen Cows that MC installed after they steamrolled the North. This was done to aid our good friends in recovering their territory and to restore Blues on our Empire route. That effort was rewarded by our continued friendship, but no space or other assets. Still, it served our Alliance well as it pushed out hostiles who could have easily overwhelmed us. When Razor/Iron/MM moved on Fix, we went because we respected Fix from before they were Bob pets, and we wanted to break the shackles Bob had over them. Again we did our part for no reward other than the moral highground. I personally count my score with Bob settled at that point: They subjegated Fix when they could have supported them as a true ally; we freed Fix when Bob showed that they really didn't care about Pets. At this point, the war moved to Qy6 and we went along. But the fractured goals of the coalition ended that cooperation. First we had minor war decs to stop our organizing in Empire near Querious. (Its like 67 jumps from where we were to Querious... not easy to get there in force) Then one by one the Coalition allies in the area reset us. When we got to the point that half of our reinforcements were being killed by other Coalition members while we were trying to move to Qy6, we had to stop. So to recap: We fought as a minor power on the Coalition side for over a year. We gained no space or assets at all, just a bit of experience and respect. When the larger powers saw their local goals met they reset us, so we lost the ability to contribute. Bob does not have these kinds of issues. They are one entity. Until the Coalition can get the same kind of unity (Which they had due to Bob's arrogant propaganda and 'questionable tactics' at the start), all you'll see is the local powers taking all the gains and then backing out of the fight once they've attained more space.
slip66 Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.04.18 16:00:00 - [86] Edited by: slip66 on 18/04/2008 16:00:36 Originally by: Gungankllr Abandoning allies and renters alike, BoB backpedaled all the way to Delve, where they claimed that they did it all for better fights. The reasons we pulled back and the reasons goons are struggling now are the same. If you really look from a strategic point of view you can see it. This war, and EVE it's self much like history are cyclic. move on and let those involved battle it out.
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.04.18 16:03:00 - [87] Did Eve end, or are all these claimed final results a little premature? I mean, sure we haven't taken over all of Eve *yet*, but I'm not aware that we are working to any specific deadline Tick tock, and all that.
hybridundertaker Amarr coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.04.18 16:42:00 - [88] so at this point the bob vs *** (insert here all that stuff) on forums came down to next oposite statments: -bob lost many regions so they lost/are loosing -bob retracted from other regions without defending so as they arent loosing delve coalition must be loosing both seemed to have a point and as im not blessed with a vision of truth id just say: let time flow by and in another half year well see who is standing and who is whining. In the meanwhile we can at least stop blaming game mechanic and ccp as were all in same mess.
Dominixa Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.04.18 16:59:00 - [89] Crap post and your alliance mates are probably laughing at you. Your insurgency now, who cares about ASCN history. HINDSIGHT is 20/20 Bud. Move forward.
Dominixa Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.04.18 17:01:00 - [90] King Fury ever post anything of substance? Originally by: King Fury How can the biggest land/space loss Eve has ever seen (5 regions) be considered a victory? All you crow about now is taking a cyno jam system, it used to be you could take entire regions now you have problems with 1 system. The only battlefield you dominate again and again are the forums with lies and hatred. Poor Bitter Bobbits

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