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Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise
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Posted - 2012.03.01 08:06:00 -
[1] - Quote
For fleet work the Naga is arguably the best of them.
Mixed naga/tornado fleets are pretty wicked to. If you have ever seen what 25 pulse oracles does to a carrier....its pretty impressive.
Talos is meh for a lot of the flying I do, but the WH guys friggin love them.
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Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise
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97
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Posted - 2012.03.02 01:56:00 -
[2] - Quote
Buzzmong wrote:I'm still of the opinion that they should have either not had 8 turret slots (say, about 6), or should have had all 8 but been PG limited enough that you couldn't put a whole rack of top tier guns on without an utter lolfit.
Mostly because from what I'm reading about useage, they do seem to be stepping quite heavily on BS's toes thanks to being on par (if not better) in the firepower stakes while retaining mobility & being quite a bit cheaper.
Yes and No.
Taking an oracle fleet against a BS fleet is ......brave.....
Not that you can't, but one hictor gets a bubble up and you loose that fleet. So they are quite effective in fire support, but no one is giving up their Maelstroms and Abbadons for them quite yet.
On the plus side you only need a couple logi, because you are only repping them long enough for them to warp off.
They are interesting hulls, as interesting for its strengths as its weeknesses. |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise
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99
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Posted - 2012.03.13 08:41:00 -
[3] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Mfume Apocal wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:What passes for "small gang" 0.0 combat these days would be the large fleet fights off yesteryear involving 50-200 per side, and the logi heavy environment has meant people turned to Alpha Fleets. Small gang is same everywhere. That's pretty funny. I've seen you call what would been considered a "small gang" 3-4 years ago a "tiny gang" and what would have been called a good size fleet a "small gang". July 2007 still referred to getting 40 people into fleet an op - and 150 people was considered "old school" game crashing blobbage. The 2008 QY6 fleet fight in the famous "Tonight we dine in NOL" campaign only involved ~100 Goonswarm to ~80 BOB. In contrast the recent O2O fleet fight had over 1900 simultaneous people. Quote:
Nulli uses Nagas.
-A-, NCdot, Occupational Hazard and a few others use plated Oracles.
The only times I've fought PL Tier 3s, they were really gay, no-tank Tach Oracles and never really stuck around on-grid long enough to do anything (that I noticed).
Fair enough - you're generally really well informed about what the latest and greatest blob tactics are, and who's using each one. -Liang
You only ever see PL in Oracles when they have a significant meatshield fleet, soon as you get close they **** off, quick like. Add to that Nulli loves their Nagas apparently, and we've caught XIX running around in 20ish man Tornado gangs.
For the most part we use the tier 3s for roams...pretty much every hull except Talos. There were a couple fleets of both Nagas and Tornados during C-J6 a couple weeks ago. They just didn't get as much press as all of the cap/supers/T3s.
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Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise
Against ALL Authorities
99
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Posted - 2012.03.13 10:44:00 -
[4] - Quote
Suleiman Shouaa wrote:For small gang, Oracle is the best assuming you have adequate tackle/anti-tackle (Tier 2 BCs do this well), otherwise the Talos. Tornado is in between the two extremes IMO - not enough gank (less DPS than an equivalent Oracle fit at every range) but it has the ability to fit a point whilst still being fast and having a credible shield tank (same as an Arty Cane). Naga's lack of lows really hurt it - not enough to fit nanos as well as a respectable amount of damage mods, both of which are required.
Putting a point on a Tornado is ....ironically...pointless IMO.
Its guns blow inside point range, if you need points use a tier 2 they are a hell of a lot better suited to that sort of work. On the outside the glass cannon 1400mm Nado is a nasty bastard when you can basically one shot damn near anything with 5 of them on a target.
Likewise Naga, that thing hits like a truck when you take into account that its damage and range bonused, and can sling anti-matter 70km with vollies in the upper 2k range....low slots or no. Not to mention that Naga has no need to compromise tank like the other three to fit long range guns, they have the best chance short of the Oracle to survive taking a couple hits.
It depends on application, I was less than impressed with the Talos out of the all three of them. In small gang (sub 20) I'm a big fan of my AC Tornado, assuming its some sort of fleet that isn't going to be gate humping.
A number of our FCs won't let a Talos in the fleet. |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise
Against ALL Authorities
99
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Posted - 2012.03.13 11:46:00 -
[5] - Quote
Mfume Apocal wrote:The problem with the Naga is it has horribad tracking. In the one real fight I got with them, they were unable to track a (well-flown) Huginn under 40km.
At first (on SiSi), I was a fan of the Tornado, then after they hit TQ the Tornado looked worse and worse. ACs are... well, ACs and project DPS fairly poorly even with a falloff bonus. Arties can't track intelligently flown HACs/recons/logis, even MWDing Muninns at 30km-ish. Nagas out-range them, Talos out-DPSes them at relevant small gang ranges, Oracles put out more DPS and do it further.
That's my opinion anyway.
I've had the best luck in mixed fleets with the AC's, of course I also tend to run it dual TE and a tracking computer. Gives you around 75-80km optimal + falloff. Otherwise you hit it on the head, that was why I said that putting a point on is silly they are great 40+ km out, anything closer is silly because they just can't track anything that doesn't have a drakes sig radius under 30km.
With Tornado and Naga the idea is to stay way the **** out and just rewarp if anything gets close.
We have a few FC's that are nado/naga fans and another that is all about pulse oracles.
The oracles were the gang that started the LXQ2 goofiness a bit back. That was under 40 DPS that dropped a tracking titan before anyone could batphone to save it. |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise
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99
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Posted - 2012.03.13 12:32:00 -
[6] - Quote
welsh wizard wrote:Is a Blaga a realistic concept or does it get screwed by grid requirements? I'm at work so can't really check it out.
Blaga gets screwed by speed more than grid, it can fit a rack of neutrons pretty easily. |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise
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102
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Posted - 2012.03.13 19:39:00 -
[7] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Onictus wrote:A number of our FCs won't let a Talos in the fleet. You have some really bad FCs then - at least for small gangs. The Talos is unquestionably the best Tier 3 for small gang combat, but the Oracle scales a bit better because it has better damage projection. -Liang
Our small gang requires range...
Pulse oracle > Talos in an armor gang. |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise
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102
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Posted - 2012.03.13 20:10:00 -
[8] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:I too believe that the Talos is slow and must be at 3km to deal damage.
-Liang
No, its faster than an oracle, but it doesn't have the power past 30km, and if it does its a shield "tank" which is laughable on the scale of a 3 SeBo Tornado.
Its great under 5 people, but that is about it. |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise
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102
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Posted - 2012.03.13 20:24:00 -
[9] - Quote
Gypsio III wrote:Onictus wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:I too believe that the Talos is slow and must be at 3km to deal damage.
-Liang No, its faster than an oracle, but it doesn't have the power past 30km, and if it does its a shield "tank" which is laughable on the scale of a 3 SeBo Tornado. Its great under 5 people, but that is about it. I think Liang is about to introduce you to Null. I haven't used a Null Talos, but ten seconds in EFT gives 16/29 km and just under 900 DPS. Does look a bit flimsy though. 
Yeah scorch, gives you 55+10 or something silly like that, and an oracle CAN fit a 1600mm plate and big pulses. |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise
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102
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Posted - 2012.03.13 20:26:00 -
[10] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Onictus wrote:
No, its faster than an oracle, but it doesn't have the power past 30km, and if it does its a shield "tank" which is laughable on the scale of a 3 SeBo Tornado.
Its great under 5 people, but that is about it.
Funny, but you get much above 5-10 people (where the Talos remains extremely powerful) and we're no longer in the small gang region.  -Liang Ed: Also, let me know how your 3 SeBo Tornado tanks a Proteus landing on it at zero. My Talos did fine.
Got a running start?
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Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise
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102
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Posted - 2012.03.13 20:29:00 -
[11] - Quote
LOL
For real, three to one odds against faction BS with triage back up and that is the best you got?
How about LXQ2 where they dropped a titan? http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=12588868 |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise
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102
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Posted - 2012.03.13 20:31:00 -
[12] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Onictus wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:Onictus wrote:
No, its faster than an oracle, but it doesn't have the power past 30km, and if it does its a shield "tank" which is laughable on the scale of a 3 SeBo Tornado.
Its great under 5 people, but that is about it.
Funny, but you get much above 5-10 people (where the Talos remains extremely powerful) and we're no longer in the small gang region. -Liang Ed: Also, let me know how your 3 SeBo Tornado tanks a Proteus landing on it at zero. My Talos did fine. Got a running start? No, he landed on me at zero with me pretty much sitting still. You can see it in the video link I posted. In fact, you might learn a lot about how to fly a Talos from watching my noob ass fly it. -Liang
Magic 8 ball says odds are not good, simply because its not worth trying to get the hull out to where I live.
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Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise
Against ALL Authorities
104
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Posted - 2012.03.14 14:16:00 -
[13] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Onictus wrote:
Magic 8 ball says odds are not good, simply because its not worth trying to get the hull out to where I live.
I wouldn't want to be in an alliance with such a ****** logistics backbone. -Liang Ed: Also, I like how you refuse to even enlighten yourself as to what the Talos is actually capable of, and instead rely on **** like claiming 150 people is a "small gang".
LOL
You are sadly mistaken, all I have to do is say the word and as many as I ask for (or can pay for) get delivered. ...I simply have no use for it at the moment.
My idea of small gang is sub 50 ships, usually more like 20(ish) nothing that doesn't float around pretty much anywhere everyday. I never said that 150 is a small gang, and if I did, please, show me where.
I'm involved in bigger stuff certainly, that is why I moved out to null. Play tag with people calling me a "blobber" all while they are they are batphoning to get a bigger gang got old in lowsec.
Liang Nuren wrote:So squeezing 75 people onto a KM is small gang warfare these days? Maybe that's why you don't like blaster ships.... -Liang
and by all means, please, continue making **** up you highness. |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise
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105
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Posted - 2012.03.14 23:23:00 -
[14] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:So first you can't even get the hull delivered and now you just have to pay for it. Backpedal more.
Yeah of course I have to pay for it. Hulls are reimbursed. But there are very few handouts, and yes, I have to pay for the hulls and mods. As much as I would like it they just don't hand you ships.....well anywhere really.
I don't see why this is a hard concept.
Liang Nuren wrote:
You linked a battle report with ~150 people involved in a discussion about small gang warfare. You apparently do consider it to be a small gang - though you back out of it now. As to 50 people being a small gang... rrriiiiigggghhhttttt. We're going to have to agree to disagree on that - though I'm pretty confident that most people would see the world closer to my view than to yours.
But I guess them's the breaks when you do nothing but blob day in and day out.
-Liang
You linked a battle report with 600 people. It was more of a response to that. Like I said look up and down my KB, you found what 10 fleet kills out of a hundred?
Because I'm definately "blobbing" in my frigging dramiel and vagabound......neither of which are "fleet" ships.
But hey you can continue creatively interpreting simple statements, its pretty amusing.
Call names all you want, but I'm beginning to question your reading compression. Again, if you look up and down my |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise
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106
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Posted - 2012.03.15 13:46:00 -
[15] - Quote
Darek Castigatus wrote:Mfume Apocal wrote:Noisrevbus wrote:...giving true 2km/s kiting missile snipers... What is wrong with the Cerb in this role? I agree, the cerb seems to hit all the points you raised just fine.
Until someone bring mass sniping drakes or Tengu's then Cerb gets smushed pretty quickly. For all of their advantages, you need an opponent in close range battleships or BC's for it to really work.
Basically pulse baddons or canes.
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Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise
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106
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Posted - 2012.03.15 14:37:00 -
[16] - Quote
Strategos wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:IMO the Tier 3s were well executed: the overall ship class is reasonably well balanced in the overall ecosystem of the game, while ship balance within the class is also pretty good. For my purposes, the Talos and Tornado far outshine the Naga and Oracle.
The problem with the Naga is its so damn slow and the problem with the Oracle is that 4 mids is absolutely mandatory in this ship class: MWD, LSE, Disruptor, Web.
-Liang Not every ship is to ment have enough mids to tackle, speed, and buffer..There are already too many ships that can do this.
Large turrets inside point range (exempting blasters now) is generally a bad idea IMO...more so with pulses that have pretty crappy tracking as a design feature to start with.
AC's are kinda workable, but far from optimal. Oracles are better off with a meatshield of some sort and about 25km of range. |
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