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An question for all CSM Candidates about BACON

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sov68n Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.20 17:20:00 - [1] Edited by: sov68n on 20/04/2008 17:25:47 Originally by: Goumindong Quote: EFT does aid the fitting ships, but it does not directly effect gameplay. Really? Are you saying that tighter fits with better balances between speed, tank, and DPS, and less time spent testing fits with more time spent flying them doesn't directly effect gameplay? That the ability to then easily transfer fits and figure out how they will exactly perform for you and your gang does not directly effect gameplay? That is like saying a searchable database of chess openings does not change the gameplay of the people sitting across from each other. EFT does not give you readouts on your actual performance in combat, especially in regards to dps, since it fails to take into account the aspects of the target: things like transversal, resists, etc. EFT's sole purpose is to give you a generalized picture of your ship's performance with one fitting as opposed to another fitting. It is not meant to, and can not give you a clear, concise picture of how your ship will be performing in combat, since combat is based more heavily on how the pilots control their ships, and aspects of the ship's movement that EFT fails to account for. It also allows you to bypass having to buy fittings that either don't fit or don't work, therefore wasting your money. And no, using the test server is NOT a valid argument against this, since skills are not kept up to date on those builds, and skills are rather important in this regard. On the other hand, if EFT was able to deliver an active combat simulator, in which you were able to customize the fittings of the other ship, and then play out a real-time simulation of your ship vs his ship (taking into account everything that EVE does during combat) all on this program, yes, it would affect gameplay. But the fact of the matter is, EFT does NOT.
sov68n Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.20 17:38:00 - [2] Originally by: Goumindong Actually EFT now includes all of that jazz[its always included resists and means to figure incoming DPS from different sources]. And anything that can't be achieved from that can be easily achieved from sticking the data into naughtyboys spreadsheet. So you basically just said that your argument was against this spreadsheet, and not EFT. But no, EFT doesn't account for ship movement. The amount of tanked DPS does not go up if your velocity is higher. You CANNOT, and I can't emphasize this enough, accurately predict how your ship will perform in combat since there are too many factors that EFT cannot account for, mainly the fashion in which your enemy pilots his ship, since we aren't talking about fighting NPCs here. Originally by: Goumindong You just said it stops you from wasting money. So does that mean that money is not an aspect of Eve? I would strongly disagree with that. The ability to quickly and easily optimize setups is a very strong ability especially when you can normalize various attributes. Your whole argument is based on the fact that testing setups takes time. In the whole scope of EVE, the time it takes to test a setup is much too short to be significant, and therefore simply presents EFT as a convenience. To clarify my point: The time saved by using EFT is negated by the inaccuracy of its information, and the difference in time between EFT and actually testing your setups is hardly enough to be considered an advantage.
sov68n Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.20 17:50:00 - [3] Originally by: Goumindong Only if you are unable to make reasonable assumptions as to what he ought to be doing and you ought to be doing. This is not a valid point for your argument, seeing as how you just admitted that EFT cannot account for a variety of factors. Factors that are much more important in combat than data from EFT could ever be to you. Originally by: Goumindong And yes, it accounts for a significant amount of time that is saved and a significant increase in the quality and ability of fitted ships for different aspects of the game. Listen to it this way: If you use EFT, you get quick, semi-accurate information. If you test it, you get delayed, precise information. There is a trade-off. However if EFT was quick AND provided the same, concise information provided by testing it in-game, I would agree that it was game-breaking. But again, it does not.
sov68n Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.20 18:00:00 - [4] Originally by: Goumindong Without the information that EFT provides you would be unable to reliably test speedily. Its a significant advantage which has provided a lot of insight into the game which we would have missed otherwise[relative advantages of the various plated gank battleships, the relative advantages of repping versus plating, etc. All information that makes the players that have it better than the players that don't]. The only difference is that its more widely used. The fact that the information EFT provides isn't your exact combat performance seems to be flying right over your head. Like I keep saying, there are too many factors in EVE pvp that EFT cannot account for, making its information a generalization at best. The only way to REALLY test your ships is to fly them in combat against hostiles. Other than that, you will never truly know how your ship performs. I rest my case.
sov68n Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.20 18:09:00 - [5] Originally by: HydroSan Why are you arguing with Goumindong? His logic makes sense to himself and nobody else. good point.
sov68n Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.20 18:23:00 - [6] Originally by: Goumindong Generalizations are useful. They are much more useful than not having the information. If you don't think its useful, then go ahead and do it by hand for the next few months. See what it changes about how what you know and what you can figure out. I'm going to say this one last time for you: There is a BIG difference between useful and/or convenient and having a negative effect on gameplay. You continue to imply that the convenience of EFT is game-breaking. It is not, and your arguments keep drifting more and more towards suggesting that EFT is in fact, just a useful tool, and nothing more. Here's an example: Originally by: Goumindong Generalizations are useful. They are much more useful than not having the information. Again, suggesting that EFT's data is in fact, not game-breaking. You lose.
sov68n Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.20 18:30:00 - [7] Originally by: Goumindong All these programs confer significant advantage on those who use them over those that do not. This is simply not an issue, since the people who do not use the programs do so by their own choice, or by ignorance of their existence. And therefore are denying themselves the advantage, meaning they are the issue in this matter, and not the programs themselves.
sov68n Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.20 18:32:00 - [8] Originally by: Evelgrivion The argument that EFT is no worse than BACON is an absurd argument, at best. Eve Fitting Tool is nothing more than a spreadsheet and calculator. It does not provide "I win" setups without trial and error, and neither is it an instant recipe for success in PvP (or even PvE) activities. I find myself agreeing with a BOB member. The world is ending. But seriously, that pretty much sums up what I've been trying to drill into guomindong's (or however the **** you spell his name) head.
sov68n Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.20 18:35:00 - [9] Originally by: Goumindong So by BACON being public then the people not using it are doing it by their own choice or by ignorance of their existence, and therefore are denying themselves the advantage, meaning they are the issue in this matter, and not the programs themselves? My statement was in reference to EFT, my apologies for not clarifying that. But imo, BACON does break gank pvp, since even people who stupidly afk in unsecure areas are now safe, and that is not how EVE should play out, under any circumstances.
sov68n Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.20 18:44:00 - [10] Originally by: Goumindong If they are AFK how do they get back to their computer to safe and cloak? No, the issue has always been with the log out timers from rat and mining aggression, and the inability of cloaking ships to be proved down. Your logic makes me cry. All of your arguments are invalid or stupid, just shut up.

sov68n Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.20 18:51:00 - [11] Originally by: Goumindong It would always sound a warning. Does that make running eve in a window, applying the always on top property to it and then making sure i can see the local count in a window when i am forum whoring a "cheat"? No, because you are actively looking at the local window while you are forum whoring. With BACON, you don't even have to have EVE on top, and that's quite a difference. Originally by: Goumindong Then i am sure you can tell me why my arguments are invalid or stupid[which really makes me wonder how one would be stupid and valid or invalid and not stupid]. I would love to hear it. Here's a stupid one: Quote: EULA says its not cheating. Oh, and when did you stop beating your wife? Why it is stupid is pretty self explanatory. and here's an invalid one: Quote: The answer to that is "not much", and all the problems that might be exacerbated by such a change are all easily fixed by changes that need to be implemented anyway[Specifically, log out timers for rat aggression, and the ability to scan down cloaked ships] BACON has a large effect on gameplay, read any of the posts (besides your own) in this thread and you will realize that.
sov68n Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.20 21:23:00 - [12] Originally by: Rexthor Hammerfists how about i put some alts in the systems around pr-, the system bob stages out from, now everytime more then 5 bob leave pr- my little programm tells me through which system they left and how big that gang is, calculating where they might go isnt rocketscience so you either form a gang to counter them 5 minutes after they left their homesystem, or you warn your industrial that in 30minutes a hostile gang will be around. This is the biggest problem with BACON.
sov68n Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.20 23:45:00 - [13] Originally by: Masu'di for example, an audio sound played when a new ship arrives on grid, would be useful and sensible, i'm sure our ships onboard computers would be capable of it, and be able to handle other sensory mediums other than light. You would go deaf during fleet fights.

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