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Ryuu Katsu
The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc. Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2008.04.20 18:19:00 -
[1]
In one of the many recent BACON threads I noticed some good points that Max Torps made about the removal of local, I wanted to bring those points aside in a seperate thread for discussion as I found them interesting enough to deserve it's own thread.
Originally by: Max Torps
CCP have stated they want to get rid of local. I would tend to agree, this would mean probably constellation chat would be used. I would want players to have other tools though to be aware of their surroundings. Such as better scanners/UI to match and non-ship based tools such as spy satellites or perimeter beacons.
If this could be accomplished I'd love for local to be removed! Without it the playing field is entirely in the "gankers" favour. There need to be tools available for both sides of a conflict to level the playing field.
It only takes a few seconds for a skilled pvp hunter to scan out someone mining in a belt for example, if there is no way for the miner to keep their bearings without hitting scan every few seconds then it's a losing game and eventually you won't be seeing any lone miners anymore in 0.0.
As for keeping an eye on alliance intel channels, they are helpful but you can't rely 100% on somebody not slipping through, particularly if there is no local available.
So, remove local, but give both sides some tools to counter each other for a level playing field.
And while I'm at it, please make some way possible to scout out cloaked ships, even if it were to require a specialized slow ship that needed to be anchored before it could start searching for cloaked ships. It should not be an instant process, but one that would take a few minutes possibly, but at least that way there would be some way to counter cloaked ships.
You give a tool to players, then you also need to give some other tool to counter it. ======================== Real men structure tank.
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Ryuu Katsu
The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc. Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2008.04.20 18:19:00 -
[2]
In one of the many recent BACON threads I noticed some good points that Max Torps made about the removal of local, I wanted to bring those points aside in a seperate thread for discussion as I found them interesting enough to deserve it's own thread.
Originally by: Max Torps
CCP have stated they want to get rid of local. I would tend to agree, this would mean probably constellation chat would be used. I would want players to have other tools though to be aware of their surroundings. Such as better scanners/UI to match and non-ship based tools such as spy satellites or perimeter beacons.
If this could be accomplished I'd love for local to be removed! Without it the playing field is entirely in the "gankers" favour. There need to be tools available for both sides of a conflict to level the playing field.
It only takes a few seconds for a skilled pvp hunter to scan out someone mining in a belt for example, if there is no way for the miner to keep their bearings without hitting scan every few seconds then it's a losing game and eventually you won't be seeing any lone miners anymore in 0.0.
As for keeping an eye on alliance intel channels, they are helpful but you can't rely 100% on somebody not slipping through, particularly if there is no local available.
So, remove local, but give both sides some tools to counter each other for a level playing field.
And while I'm at it, please make some way possible to scout out cloaked ships, even if it were to require a specialized slow ship that needed to be anchored before it could start searching for cloaked ships. It should not be an instant process, but one that would take a few minutes possibly, but at least that way there would be some way to counter cloaked ships.
You give a tool to players, then you also need to give some other tool to counter it. ======================== Real men structure tank.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.04.20 18:30:00 -
[3]
We've had this discussion many many many times before. Removing local is not the answer and causes many more problems than any it solves. There is no reason to spend the time when the fixes are much easier.
Vote Goumindong for CSM |
Hohenheim OfLight
Pegasus Mining and Securities R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2008.04.20 18:33:00 -
[4]
re moving local really wont work, you can say use the scanner but i have played eve for 2 or 3 years and still can not use that dam thing have read the guides and all the rest and i have come to the conclusion that if you don't make the scanner a 3d thing with red blobs that i can click on and click warp to I am never using it again.
Being dyslexic A huge list of text and numbers is just not doing it for me, that think is just a mess.
----------------------------------------------
Is mining for a hel mad? or just ambishus?
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.04.20 18:38:00 -
[5]
I actually think removing local is a good idee. Replace it with constellation or region chat to get *some sort* of warning, increase the range of the scanner (to 50 odd AU perhaps) and introduce a beacon launcher out of which you can launch some sort of probe that will report any player movement within its area of effect.
Yes i know i spelled COAD wrong. Stop mailing me about it
I refuse to read SHC |
Ga'len
Wandering Druid of Tranquility
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Posted - 2008.04.20 18:40:00 -
[6]
ugh....not ANOTHER remove local thread. Give it a rest, will ya?
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PeHD0M
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Posted - 2008.04.20 18:42:00 -
[7]
Personally i dont like the whole idea of ultimate intelligence tool aka local chat. I think it ruins ingame realism.
Btw i also dont like current adress book features. I think that if you add someone into adressbook, there have to be agreement on both players, like in many others mmo games (friendlist). Because now adressbook is the same ultimate intelligence tool like local chat. Just imagine, you add some player into book, and then you know when he is online, even if he dont want that to happen, and you are at the other part of EVE universe.
And imho locator agents should be limited to region only.
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Frug
Repo Industries R.E.P.O.
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Posted - 2008.04.20 19:10:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Hohenheim OfLight you can say use the scanner but i have played eve for 2 or 3 years and still can not use that dam thing have read the guides and all the rest and i have come to the conclusion that if you don't make the scanner a 3d thing with red blobs that i can click on and click warp to I am never using it again.
lol - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles |
Kayoss
IDLE GUNS
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Posted - 2008.04.20 19:26:00 -
[9]
Remove local !!! Great idea, this has been said many times and ccp agree's it shouldn't be used the way it is, as an inteligence tool. Get rid of it. Hopefully ccp will do something about it instead of just talking about it.
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Kyra Felann
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2008.04.20 20:08:00 -
[10]
Nerf local (make it still show people who talk).
Buff scanning or make new ways to detect people, but not automatically and infallibly like local is.
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Vadimik
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.04.20 20:26:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Vadimik on 20/04/2008 20:30:39
Originally by: Goumindong We've had this discussion many many many times before. Removing local is not the answer and causes many more problems than any it solves. There is no reason to spend the time when the fixes are much easier.
I want to stress one important thing:
It's Goumindong's (among some others) opinion that "removing local is not the answer", not a generally accepted fact.
If you are new to this topic, don't get confused here: many players believe that removing local is the answer.
In non of the "many many many discussions about local" a conclusion that "local can't be removed" was accepted.
P.S. I, for one, think that local as a "perfect intel tool" should be nerfed to oblivion.
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SCSPOOK
Caldari 16th Interspacial Dynasty The 11th Hour
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Posted - 2008.04.20 22:11:00 -
[12]
Leave Cloaked ships alone pls
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
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Posted - 2008.04.20 22:15:00 -
[13]
Just removing local doesn't solve anything, and would possibly be game breakingly bad.
The scanner works, but it's far too basic to be an acceptable replacement (really, clicking 'scan' every 30 seconds... well, would really suck).
Now, if what we had was some 'elite style' scanner view thingy, that let you see ships as they came into range (but before they arrived on grid and started locking you) then that might work.
There's even room for an extensive scanning/monitoring/detection system, that's like ... well, thing submarines, and sonar. You ping to find stuff, but doing so announces your presence. And maybe have anchorable 'early warnings' or 'more detailed/longer ranged' scanner modules.
But the important point is it's got to be automatic. NO ONE wants a game where clicking on 'scan' every 30 seconds is how you avoid getting jumped. |
Chillshock
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Posted - 2008.04.20 22:32:00 -
[14]
Actually I think the removal of Local would be ... great!
Put in Station-Comlines for larger NPC Stations.
And give ships a "passive scanning radius". Not all the same. A small fighter will not have the kind of detection system.
Imagine: You can send in a Fighter to a gate to "check the perimeter". You can have more or less regular Patrols in "your space". Maybe POS have certain Modules that allow for VAST surveilance. Possibile "Sensor Arrays" that can pick up Signatures of Battleships in the whole System, but anything as small as a fighter might get there, and take it out.
ENDLESS possibilities for tactics, advantages, disadvantages...
So many prople want to make space larger? THIS would be a chance.
New Ships, New Modules, New Tasks.... *dreams*
Also - detectability would be something GREAT to change the "bigger is better FULLSTOP" a little.
Jup, I like the Idea of not having local, but having Communication-Lines and Public-Communication-Hubs of Larger Areas *cough* Jita *cough*. Talking about improving immergence!
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Elysarian
Minmatar Republic University
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Posted - 2008.04.20 22:47:00 -
[15]
Removal of local would serve another purpose not mentioned so far on this thread: Macro/bot miners/mission runners would be at a serious disadvantage in low-sec, no local means they would not get a nice easy warning of approaching danger.
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Soporo
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.04.20 23:01:00 -
[16]
You THINK this is what you want.
Removing local would cause even worse Empire hugging, would foster more blobbing, and be the bane of any miner or missioner to set foot in LowSec or 0.0 which means they likely won't.
In other words, a huge nerf to any non-pvp endeavor in Low and Nosec, particularly mining wich is mostly stationary. Not to mention a nerf to anyone who wants to defend an area. Which MEANS fewer targets, worse markets, AND more blobbage. Have fun with that.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.04.20 23:05:00 -
[17]
Removing local altogether is not a good idea. Revamping local significantly however, great idea.
First off, if you can't detect somebody in OTHER ways than just presence in local, that person's portrait should definetely NOT show up in local. That's the cornerstone of, well, basically everything.
So, docked pilots SHOULD show up in the local list for as long as they are docked and online. Heck, I could even go so far as claiming there should be a "docked" icon next to their portrait in local, but that's another story. Cloaked ship pilots SHOULD NOT show up in the local list at all, even if they speak, unless otherwise detected. That much, most people should be able to agree on, I hope.
Second thing, you have to give everybody some limited capability to detect the presence of other non-cloaked ships in space. Not the location, just the presence. But with that power, some degree of risk should be involved too.
So, I'd say the best way to do this would be to have each ship have a selectable "stealth/anti-stealth" operation mode.
In full stealth mode, you should not be able to detect anybody at all unless in the same grid (scanner use and probes disabled while in this mode), and be slightly harder to detect as you would be otherwise. You don't need a cloak for this mode to work, but you get a large bonus to how hard you are to detect if you have one active. Covops cloaks while active should completely prevent detection. Firing a weapon will automatically cancel stealth mode.
In normal mode, you show up in local to all people within scanner range, but remain invisible to all the rest. It's pretty much how things would be without local around, but you don't have to use the scanner all the time. You do have to use the scanner however to attempt to look for ships in stealth mode. You can not detect the presence of cloaked ships with the scanner in this mode.
In full anti-stealth mode, you should be able to detect all non-cloaked ships in space in the system in a certain range around you, dependant on your sensor strength (say, up to 15 + 3 * sensor strength in AU, for instance)... but on the negative side, you automaticaly show up in local to everybody as long as you use full anti-stealth mode. You can not activate this mode while cloaked. However, you CAN detect the PRESENCE of cloaked ships (except covops cloaks) in your scanner range. Again, presence, not location.
And of course, the last thing, non-covops cloaked ships should be locateable via probes, but at severely increased difficulty and imprecision (depending on the quality of the cloak). Covops cloaked ships however will get an "infinite" difficulty multiplier, remaining probe-unlocatable as long as they're still cloaked.
1|2|3|4|5. |
Hasak Rain
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.04.20 23:10:00 -
[18]
I don't see how people who are saying it wouldn't work can conclude that when we have no idea what CCP would come up with to compensate it.
It sounds like people don't want it changed for their own selfish reasons.
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Brun Thorvald
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Posted - 2008.04.20 23:37:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Soporo You THINK this is what you want.
Removing local would cause even worse Empire hugging, would foster more blobbing, and be the bane of any miner or missioner to set foot in LowSec or 0.0 which means they likely won't.
In other words, a huge nerf to any non-pvp endeavor in Low and Nosec, particularly mining wich is mostly stationary. Not to mention a nerf to anyone who wants to defend an area. Which MEANS fewer targets, worse markets, AND more blobbage. Have fun with that.
Word
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Max Torps
Gallente eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.04.20 23:54:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Ryuu Katsu
You give a tool to players, then you also need to give some other tool to counter it.
Thanks for taking interest in my post. What you posted is exactly my point of view on many issues surrounding gameplay in Eve. For every attack, there has to be some sort of counter-attack and I'm fairly certain that CCP and many players want that too.
Regarding local and scanning.
Local is quite valuable to a lot of people. It swiftly identifies when a system is under attack (potentially). It is passive and easy to use. It is invaluable as an intelligence tool. It makes a decision to sit in station or go hunting easy. Some would say too easy. Some would also say not easy enough, I give you that.
Scanning takes time to train. There are dedicated skills required to do it well where you can almost pinpoint the location of the enemy. It uses resources (probes) and acts as a minor isk sink in that respect. Many corporations use covert ops alts to do this. Many use mains. It can take less than a minute to probe out a player.
So why do we use local? We use it because it gives a summary of who is in the system and from that we discern if we need to hit the scanner button to find out more. What is the problem with local? Nothing really. But the perceived problem is that it offers too much intel for too little effort. Now with bacon you barely need to be awake.
How would you like a system where you didn't have to repeatedly scan for updates. It refreshed every x seconds. There was a little box on your UI that indicated whatever type ships were in system. It was fed by a probe you or corpmates launched. It requires skill and also costs isk. It acted on standings, showing neutrals and enemies. It is cloaked but lasts a finite amount of time.
Point your camera at the star gate, moon, planet or other object and yes, you can see what you can see now. Use probes we have now. The same.
This brings back the run silent, run deep aspect of submarine warfare but in a sci-fi setting. Where maintaining defense grids is required, moving out from a station is required to maintain them, small escort gangs to do so are required. The enemy are equally blind, they also need to pop out probes.
OK so let's think this through.
I'm an invading gang. You are docked.
Your system is next. I know from the galactic map there are 40 pilots in there. I do not know anything else. I send a Helios in. He re-cloaks enemy gateside. Just before he cloaks in that split second, he appears on your perimeter scanners you have pointed at the gate. Then disappears. How alert were your corpmates? Was that spotted? I take a gamble and ask the Helios to drop a probe ... let's say near the sun. Ok that's dropped. I now know that out of 40 pilots on the galactic map, 38 are docked as only 2 are showing. I move through. You know there is a probe in the system.
This has given a slight delay to moving through for me but not massive, I have more exact intel on where your ships are than if I used local, I would have had to have asked the pilot to check all stations for docked pilots or belts.
You know now that 20 pilots have entered the system. You know that I'm either going to scatter and safe spot, or make a run for it. I may even surprise you and bubble the station.
Your choices are the same as what they were before local was removed.
Just ideas popping out. I'm interested in your opinions. I have my flame suit on.
EvE blogspace, free! Max Torps CSM Candidate |
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She Storm
Minmatar Founder's of the Dominion The Dominion Empire
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Posted - 2008.04.21 00:44:00 -
[21]
And when Local was gone a long while ago... there were countless threads asking for a local chat. CCP can't win.. they put it in and ppl *****.. they take it out and ppl *****
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techzer0
IDLE GUNS
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Posted - 2008.04.21 00:52:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Vadimik Edited by: Vadimik on 20/04/2008 20:30:39
Originally by: Goumindong We've had this discussion many many many times before. Removing local is not the answer and causes many more problems than any it solves. There is no reason to spend the time when the fixes are much easier.
I want to stress one important thing:
It's Goumindong's (among some others) opinion that "removing local is not the answer", not a generally accepted fact.
If you are new to this topic, don't get confused here: many players believe that removing local is the answer.
In non of the "many many many discussions about local" a conclusion that "local can't be removed" was accepted.
P.S. I, for one, think that local as a "perfect intel tool" should be nerfed to oblivion.
Nerfing nanos will fix local. Ask Goumindong. I speak truth!
(btw, yes... nerf the crap out of local.) ------------
Originally by: CCP Mitnal It's great being a puppetmaster
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Max Torps
Gallente eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.04.21 00:54:00 -
[23]
Originally by: She Storm And when Local was gone a long while ago... there were countless threads asking for a local chat. CCP can't win.. they put it in and ppl *****.. they take it out and ppl *****
I normally don't respond to straw man arguments. I am posting this once to save you energy and to keep this a positive, contributory thread.
EvE blogspace, free! Max Torps CSM Candidate |
Segmentor
Dark Knights of Deneb Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2008.04.21 22:03:00 -
[24]
cloaks make you invisible for a reason so you cannot be found
behind enemy lines stealth anyone?
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Radcjk
Caldari Dark Star LTD Atrocitas
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Posted - 2008.04.21 23:02:00 -
[25]
I've experienced a lack of care bear tears due to the absence of my machine... but the forum tears, while not as sweet, they do hold one over.
Cry some more.
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Illminatis
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Posted - 2008.04.21 23:46:00 -
[26]
CCP removes local CCP adds ship that can drop a probe and tell what ships are active in space Nothing changes except for the fact that everyone now flies with 1 person in a probing ship instead of a combat ship
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Brur
Minmatar IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2008.05.19 21:08:00 -
[27]
yes killz locals do it pls! then i can kill people without them even knowing i am in local, that would be amazing, although hate mail would be a lot less spur of the moment, and smack talking local is always fun to read. . . oh well. ------------- Techzer0 is my hero |
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