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Archbishop
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
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Posted - 2008.04.25 02:31:00 -
[1]
I believe in the long run getting rid of local would create more problems then it solves. While there are some inherent issues with it overall it's such an ingrained part of the game now I think it would be difficult to replace.
I look at my own experiences in 0.0 space in survival mode (and as someone who has played this game solo at times). I jump into a system. I'm cloaked initially but unless the pirate gatecamp is at that gate I really have no warning. Am I supposed to stop and probe out every system I'm jumping thru on my way somewhere? Not realistic and way to time consuming we might as well just get rid of highways. After all I remember 84 jump trips before those came in (and before AP). Now it'll take just as long to go 20 when we have to scan people out.
Likewise now when I jump in I can see local, see those orange skulls and think "hey there are pirates around here". Maybe I'll scout a bit, warp in at 100km to a gate or warp to a safe location before doing anything. I have the choice to protect myself. Without local you're fair game.
I completely agree with Hardin on this one. While local isn't always the greatest it is the way we've played for years and moreso it's the way many have stayed alive (or at least less-dead) for years.
Another point is what I would think would be a decline in combat. Right now generally two evenly matched fleets will engage. Sure one side likes the advantage but usually if the fleets are close it's "hey lets rumble". Now imagine where you have NO IDEA what the other fleet has. Right now you can send scouts to other systems to see if reinforcements are there or check the map for pilots in space. Not anymore.
I see GANK GANK GANK the end result of doing away with local. I just don't believe it's realistic and furthermore believe it would decrease the pvp opportunties in Eve for 0.0 dwellers to a point where the game could lose interest to them. Even with a "sonar" type of scanner if you can't see the opposite gate your warping to you're completely blind. I'm sorry but if I'm in a system and I see 20 pirates in local I'm going to take precautions. With this model the only precaution I have is making sure my clone is updated.
While Archbishop is in a corp I do play solo alt characters at times in 0.0 space and I know if something like this went through as a solo player I'd be back hiding in Empire. Stuff where fleets of alliance mates can drum up 50 ships is fine but for the solo or small corp player it's completely unrealistic. Right now those solo an small corp players have a life in 0.0 and local is one of the only real ways they have to protect themselves. Taken away it's gone regardless of what type of scanner you get. People want some semblence of security and like it or not there are a sizeable number of Eve players who are solo or in small corps. I can see them moving back to empire because of something like this after being GANKED over and over again by unseen gatecamps.
I don't think thats what CCP wants.
Archbishop
PIE WEBSITE & FORUMS |
Archbishop
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
|
Posted - 2008.04.26 03:35:00 -
[2]
If those advocating the removal of local would answer a couple of quick questions from me it would allow everyone to make a more informed decision. For many years now we've seen CCP make some decisions to change the game only to have a patch a short while later to "fix" some "unintended consequence" of their "improvement".
1. If local is removed how are solo players who operate in 0.0 supposed to live there anymore and enjoy the benefits of 0.0 space while staying as solo players? Given the increased risk of GANKING when you warp into a gate and have no idea if someone is there or not (like a 30 ship pirate blob) I would think the enjoyment of the game by these solo players would be greatley diminished. I also think they would flee back to empire where they can "see" whats around them.
2. On long distance trips thru 0.0 space are you supposed to stop and "scan" the system now everytime you jump with some new "sonar module" sort of thing? How long would this take? It basically ends autopilot if you have to stop everytime you jump and do this.
Jade's idea is great if we want to change this into EVE-ALLIANCE-ONLINE and have everyone join an alliance so we can all fly around in a Battlegroup and scan out the enemy. The reality is far different for many in Eve however and I don't believe making changes to the game which basically lead the solo players to the altar of sacrifice and gankarmageddon is the answer. Not everyone is in an alliance and can do these things. Likewise even if people are in an alliance maybe they're not some battle hungry alliance of pvp killers. Maybe they're peaceful mining industrialist carebears venturing into 0.0 to make their fortune. Not everyone in eve is looking for endless pvp and "wild times".
While something like that may not be intended by removing local I do believe it would be another in the long line of "unintended consequences" to CCP patches and "improvements".
Those two questions above stand for anyone willing to take a shot at them. If a compelling argument can be made I'll listen. But I'm going on the experience of someone with nearly 6 years in Eve counting beta who has played the solo game in 0.0 and knows the reality of "flying alone out there".
Now there is something that no one has brought up however (that surprises me). What if in 0.0 space any war declared enemy DOESNT appear in local? You can see everyone else (like those 15 guys with -10.0 sec status) but if you're corporation is wardec'd you can't see those enemies. I mean if people want the thrill of the hunt and chase why not this? It gives that hunt and chase to those who want it while keeping the status quo for those who don't.
Even so I do see something like this causing pvp to slow down quite a bit as corps are reduced to "scanning and jumping... scanning and jumping" to accomplish anything. Sounds kind of boring to me.
Archbishop 
PIE WEBSITE & FORUMS |
Archbishop
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
|
Posted - 2008.04.26 18:31:00 -
[3]
 Quote:
1. The removal of local will not really change the solo dynamic negatively in 0.0. At the moment lone-players donÆt really move with perfect freedom Archie. Sure you can warp to outbound - but each time you jump through the gate you take the same risk you outline for the ôlocal-lessö scenario.
Agreed to a point although lets look at it a moment from the aspect of the stationary solo/small alliance player in a system. Lets say the ABC mining corp is out mining in 0.0 and has 3-4 mining ships or even a rorqual and 2 guys in ravens to defend against belt rats and they're just minding their own business. With the current local system if 10 pirates jump into system they'll be seen. With no local that warning is gone. Sure some proximity sensors might help and the two defending ravens could swap a high end weapon for a "scanner" to keep scanning but why then would this be any different from what we have now.
That's sort of the point I'm making here. With an improved sensor system it's really no different from current local. People are supporting a revamped sensor and map system to help aid the local "benefits" lost yet why even dump local if we're going to offer totally usable substitutes?
In the end that's the hidden point of my message. Either they'll be big changes or it isn't a change at all and I have to agree with some that CCP doesn't move in big steps. In the end I think the abandonment of 0.0 by alot of solo and small alliance players would happen, I believe we'd see alot more gatecamping and alot more ganking and in the end no real improvement.
I do agree with you Jade that local was never intended to become an early warning system. That's what's evolved though and thats what we've had for five plus years. While we can tweak it a bit, maybe make it so war declared enemies don't appear or something, in the end I just don't think it's wise to mess with.
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3. I donÆt think your previous points support this concept turning Eve into ôalliance onlineö û on the contrary I believe that reducing the perfect map intelligence and local monitoring functionality will reduce the ability of alliances to control and dominate space and will allow solo/small group players far greater opportunity to evade and exist in 0.0 without continual interference from sitting powers.
I will agree with you on dumping the map inteligence. Likewise I don't believe the map should be used for intel. Maps are for convenience not recon. When I'm driving down the highway and looking at a map it tells me theres a gas station at the next exit but it doesn't give me the price per gallon of gas. Yes dump the map intel and while they're at it make the map ONLY informational. Things like services are great but info like pilots in system, corp member locations, podkills, etc are only intel based. Who gives us that intel? It isn't realistic.
That said I'd support an alternative. What if (even without sovereignty) a corporation could deploy "spy satellites" that could monitor a system gate? You could only deploy a few of them per corp but you could put them where you believe your enemy is operating. They'd require maintenance and would shut down after awhile. It would require special skills to operate and the benefit would be more "realistic" then some all seeing map we can pull up.
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If we think of the scanner perhaps it should detect not just individual elements (such as ships) but the combined effect of large numbers of ships in one location. For example, the scanner might act to detect 'mass signature' readings created by ships in close proximity to one another.
This would be good. You could detect a 20 ship pirate gatecamp before you warp in on top of them at least.
Good discussion everyone!
Archie
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