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Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.04.23 15:46:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Goumindong on 23/04/2008 15:49:27
Until you have a system on paper that does not fall into all the pitfalls that need to be avoided all of the wishes and wants for local are just hot air.
Especially when there are a number of "quick" fixes that will solve pretty much all of the problems except the "feel" problem that can be implemented swiftly and easily.
[I.E. let people scan cloaking ships, add 5 minute rat/mining aggression timer, don't show in local until you decloak from jump in(you still show if using a cloak)]
 Originally by: Jade Constantine
Here's the thing Soporo. At the moment the map gives too much information. How many in space? How many npcs destroyed? How many jump activations? And local lets me know when I come into system there is somebody there. All I have to do as a "hunter" is zoom about with a ceptor and quarter the belts and look for a barge. The hard business of knowing where to look amongst the 1000 stars is already done for me.
An increase in the time and effort it takes to find ships is, plain and simple, a decrease in the amount of combat that will occur.
This is for two reasons, the first being that it takes more time to find targets, the second being that players are more likely to run together for protection when they have less information to deal with.
Both of these things are not good for the game.
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Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.04.24 14:15:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Goumindong on 24/04/2008 14:17:41
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Is an fps game more or less fun for knowing who is in the next room? Is an rts game more or less fun for having "fog of war" turned on. If everyone lacks perfect overview and tactical information then all is fine and balanced. Eve won't suddenly stop undocking if local went away in 0.0. People will be ratting, patrolling, agenting and building POS and whatnot and since these activities will not automatically signal presence on the map and in local there will be a radical upsurge in that rarest of eve engagement paradigms - the meeting engagement.
Then again. These games are fundamentally different. Not only do they offer some certain and important information regarding opponents[in more RTS's is where the opponent starts how many of them are there and with what resources, in FPS games its how many of them are there and their base capabilities], but they also are more or less riskless. If you lose the game, the time it takes to start again is near zero.
Because sides are not fixed and risks are higher makes eve fundamentally a different game from these. And then the analogy breaks down.
The argument also breaks down due to time. That you increase the amount of time it takes for the engagement to happen may reduce its frequency. This is especially true for deep 0.0 ops.
An increase in the time it takes to find targets combined with the both the decreased likelihood that people will produce and the increased likelihood that they will form together for defense mean that engagements are more likely to be much fewer with many more people on either side.
Originally by: Wrayeth
I've got a couple of concerns regarding your suggestions. My apologies if they have already been addressed in previous replies; I'm trying to finish typing this before I get ready for work and don't have time to read the whole thread.
She has said it won't happen the way we claim, but hasn't put up a strong argument to that effect.
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Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.04.24 19:30:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
A couple of others have said the same and I've answered them in detail above - the key point is to understand exactly what happens when the local/map intel goes away. There isn't a way to simply "outblob" intel failures - you have to scan for and discover enemy gangs and use that read intel gathered from ships in space to make the engagement decision. I think its a bit ironic to suggest that removing local would actually reduce the quality of fights and encourage ganking and blobs since to my eyes the current state of the game has reached the absolute optimum peak for this tendency already - now we're trying to unwind this and improve the territory somewhat.
You are wrong about what happens in this game when local goes away, your argument to support that position is a false analogy, and you are also wrong about the ability to out-blob intelligence failures.
Intelligence networks all follow the same laws of cooperative networks[not sure this is the right word here], but their value is "equal" to the number of nodes they have squared. Larger alliances are more easily able to dedicate more people to scanning and have larger gangs all scanning. This increases the number of nodes they have and lets them get better and more accurate information in faster. Only by increasing the amount of information that parties have access to or removing the ability to gather information can you limit the advantage that larger gangs and alliances have in this regard.
Quote:
I strongly believe that nano-ship culture has evolved because its simply the only way to fight in the current environment of 0.0 where the defending side has all advantages, cyno jammed and jump-bridged systems and the ability to focus the entirety of the defensive blob on any incoming force.
No, the prevalence of nano-gangs has entirely to do with the fact that the ships reduce risks much too severely[i.e. they are overpowered]. Defensive gangs for every type of operation that is not attacking a POS are now nearly all compromised of nano-ships[and for good reason].
Even fleets today are split into the nano-ships and the battleships[and the capitals]. A great example is BoB which flies with nearly no frigates, ceptors, or interdictors now-a-days simply because they have become obsolete to fast tech 2 cruisers.
Back in the day when nano-fibers were +20m/s, overdrives were +velocity -agility and i-stabs were useless this was not the case because you could not make a cruiser as fast as a frigate but with more hit points and better dps.
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Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.04.24 23:58:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Goumindong on 24/04/2008 23:58:16
Originally by: Francis Inch
Scrapping it might be great from an intel point of view, but I'm not seeing anyone putting forward suggestions on what to do about the great big hole in the social element of the MMO that removing it creates. Every MMO has a local channel because being multiplayer means people talk.
You can easily still have the channel. When people talk about removing local they talk about removing its functionality as an intelligence tool. I.E. setting it to delayed mode, or "off" so that the channel list won't ever update or will only update when someone talks. Kinda how if you open up any large chat channel it will look like no one is in until any person talks, then only they show.
2. This is a very legitimate complaint and one that I share[as well as the slanting towards attacking]. Which is why any removal of local functionality would need to be packaged with a new mechanic that had the same key functionality as local. This key functionality is
1. Presence
2. Standing
Local produces some other information like name, [notes based on show info], corp/alliance, etc that does not need to be figured.
For more information see this link, and follow the discussion that goes on. The discussion that is in the link that is in the link is also a good read regarding the problems of local and why removing its functionality.
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Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.04.27 19:29:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Cailais
An interesting idea.
a: Pirate sits quietly at a belt ready to ambush his prey.
b: Miner sits at a belt, sees a warp drive spike on scanner - time to flee!
= works for both parties. Certainly worthy of consideration Anke'.
C.
PS: please someone fix these forums this has taken three attempts just to post a reply! 
How does the miner know the warp drive spike is not just his hauler coming back to the belt, leaving the belt, a friendly moving through the system, a friendly ratter in another belt.
etc etc etc etc.
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