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El'Niaga
Minmatar
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.05.10 17:26:00 -
[181]
You can't remove local without removing a majority of the playerbase. Trust me if they could they would have. That mistake some time back was not a mistake.....
Accept that local isn't going away or that if they were to remove it whatever replaced it would be just as easy and just as useful to the point of making removing it worthless.
CCP is a business. Regardless of how you feel, they simply can't afford the loss in business removing local would incur.
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Brunswick2
coracao ardente
Cruel Intentions
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Posted - 2008.05.10 17:54:00 -
[182]
Edited by: Brunswick2 on 10/05/2008 17:56:42
Removing local is going to kill off low sec/0.0 even more. People are already intimidated by leaving empire to go into the dreaded 0.4 systems with an easy source of intel (local). Take that away and have the scanner be the only source of intel and you will just have huge gangs of recons running around, and with all the new chars terrified of entering low sec/0.0.
People don't seem to realize that making it easier to kill people is only going to scare mostly everyone from doing anything in low sec/0.0. All removing local will do is encourage empire hugging and massive blobbing because you'll have no idea what is out there in the system.
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Astria Tiphareth
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.05.10 18:52:00 -
[183]
 Originally by: Brunswick2
People don't seem to realize that making it easier to kill people is only going to scare mostly everyone from doing anything in low sec/0.0. All removing local will do is encourage empire hugging and massive blobbing because you'll have no idea what is out there in the system.
So let me get this straight... having local allows you to see precisely what the enemy has in system, encouraging blobbing by bringing more people than they have (a simple and obvious tactic) or encouraging docking if you don't have more people. (In fact, it's amazing anybody gets to fight at all the way local intel is described by some...)
Removing local will now also encourage blobbing? Which is it? Or is it perhaps that safety in numbers applies regardless of the intel tools used? Setting aside that a lot of players view low-sec as a no-go-area right now...
As an empire-hugger myself, I can appreciate what you're saying about local & low-sec; it's quite nifty to enter a low-sec system and see precisely who's there. On the other hand, I don't really care who's in the system in low-sec, pretty much anyone is a threat. I do care if there's a gatecamp but I won't know that without going and looking.
Overall, the way I see local at the moment is vastly over-powered, but also very simple to implement and to use. On the other hand, it's pretty trivial to write a radar system or something similar for every ship so you get an idea of what's out there, and sensor specifics and warp spikes and all that jazz can be incorporated pretty easily. I even have visions of a solar system map with compiled data for fleet commanders, the way real naval battles are conducted... The question is does it benefit the game?
Not knowing what is out there enables more tactics, more ways to confuse and defeat your foe. Feints, lures, jamming, all become possible. As already mentioned cloaks need some suitable proximity warning (I would suggest only if moving, otherwise ambushes go out the window) otherwise they become far far too powerful. Do players have time and coordination enough to pull these sorts of things off?
One issue that does come to mind: how much of an intel tool can scanning be given the use of gates? Ultimately everyone has to come through one. If scanning replaced local by some means, would this just lead to gatecamps galore? Lets assume for a moment it wouldn't, perhaps simply due to time-zones...
Conversely, not knowing what is out there reduces the ability to actually engage the enemy. For comparison, a typical submarine engagement can last days if not weeks trying to hunt the other without giving away your own position. PvP has to happen reasonably quickly otherwise it's just a time-sink with no satisfaction at all.
In short, you need a balance. Whatever scanning system is implemented needs to be easy to use, just powerful enough that it doesn't take hours to find an enemy, and just underpowered enough that it doesn't immediately replace local, in which case you've achieved nothing.
I could mention how real carrier battles are theorised (since we've not really had one in any modern military) and all about the choice to radiate or not, scouting, passive sensors, active sensors, (a lot of the same applies in different ways to submarine combat) but it's really all fluff as far as EVE is concerned. Nice to have, not the core of the concept.
I'm all for a scanning system, and seen some great ideas like spotting concentrations of ships, but it must be easy to use, still enable PvP, and not protect attackers so much that people daren't set foot outside a station. Heck, put it in empire and low-sec, I don't see why they need any special treatment.
___
"If you can't debate using logic & fact, and at least recognise other people's point of view, don't waste time posting on forums. It only makes you look like a teenage idiot." |
Zeknichov
Life. Universe. Everything.
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Posted - 2008.05.10 19:00:00 -
[184]
Remove local. Allow scanner to determine if the ship it has scanned is being piloted or not.
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Astria Tiphareth
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.05.10 19:08:00 -
[185]
Originally by: Lyta Reimalken
The more information I have, the less fights I feel confident of winning (due to finding myself with a perfect representation of the assets in play) and the less willing I am to engage. If I dont know what my enemy has, and he doesnt know what I have, I am going to have more fun finding out.
Knowing whats in local, knowing what the odds are before combat starts and having to do no work to do this (whilst knowing the exact same holds true for your opponent) is one of the things that can make eve combat boring.
Missed this in my first read and to me it sums up how PvP combat should be. I was thrilled and exhilarated by my first trip into low-sec (read: terrified out of my wits) until I worked out that I could find out if a system was safe just by looking in local. Not knowing, and knowing that your enemy may have better or worse information is part of the thrill. Have you been detected? Have you found their main force or a diversion? etc.
As I said in my much longer previous post, it's all a balance; in my example, low-sec became a lot less intimidating when I realised I could see who was about. On the other hand, it means that pirates must resort to gate-camping and catching someone first entering the system, precisely because local informs on their presence. You can't hunt if you're permanently up-wind of the prey.
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"If you can't debate using logic & fact, and at least recognise other people's point of view, don't waste time posting on forums. It only makes you look like a teenage idiot." |
Tankn00blicus
Cosmic Vacum Cleaners
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Posted - 2008.05.10 19:13:00 -
[186]
Edited by: Tankn00blicus on 10/05/2008 19:15:01
Removing local will nerf low sec even more. Oh, and the veld buff made high sec even better than it was before. In low-null sec, people will fly gank and/or make nano even better.
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Cornette
Gallente
Black Screen of Death
HUZZAH FEDERATION
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Posted - 2008.05.10 19:35:00 -
[187]
It took some time to read through all the pages but it was worth it.
To Jade: I already voted for you for your ideas of making null sec less static and dull. And this thread only reinforced my belief that I gave my vote to the right person.
Removing local chat and nerfing the map would make EVE feel big again, and make null-sec much more interesting and dangerous. It would also limit the insanity of big space-holding alliances who love to lay claim to big estates of space without really using it.
And before someone hits the reply-button to nag on my opinion, I been in big space-holding alliances. So I know everything there is to know about that play-style already.
For those who say people will just quit the game if CCP remove local, there is a perfect place for them already. Its called Empire, and its already to good compared with most 0.0 space. Some People already in 0.0 will squirm and complain but they will adapt, or they will be replaced by newer players entering 0.0 after the change.
So please CCP, with sugar on top, nerf local and the map.
Remove the adress book intel too when your at it. Unless a person wants you to know you shouldn't be able to use it like a watch-list to see if your enemies are online or not.
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Gaiam
Gallente
Supernova Security Systems
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Posted - 2008.05.10 19:42:00 -
[188]
removing local is a totally stupid idea.
EVERY single friend or enemy i have in eve i met using local.
removing local would be worse for eve than smugglers gates or jump bridges.
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Ashnagala
Caldari
Cybertec Inc.
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Posted - 2008.05.10 22:53:00 -
[189]
this is so tripple-/signed
___________________________________
Best regards,
ALPR Co-CEO Ashnagala
Alphrenel Productions - making nice videos for everyone! |
Corey McDonald
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Posted - 2008.05.24 23:22:00 -
[190]
I'm for it
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Corey McDonald
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Posted - 2008.05.24 23:24:00 -
[191]
Originally by: Gaiam
removing local is a totally stupid idea.
EVERY single friend or enemy i have in eve i met using local.
removing local would be worse for eve than smugglers gates or jump bridges.
Not removing local entirely, removing local in particularly low sec and 0.0
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hydraSlav
Synergy Evolved
Daisho Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.05.25 00:37:00 -
[192]
Edited by: hydraSlav on 25/05/2008 00:37:55
Oh please please please see this through, Jade. I was voting for removal of local for couple of years now.
I even wrote an article to EvE-Tribune about this a long time ago:
http://www.eve-tribune.com/index.php?no=1_24&page=4
Hell, even Oveur himself says local should not be used as an intel tool (read my signature).
Of course, removing local would be a huge game-changing mechanic, and something on that magnitude should not be done in one step. But the solution already exists. We have "delayed mode" channels already, where people don't show up in the list unless they recently spoke. And you don't see the numbers of local, unless you spoke or spent some time in channel.
==
Above comments are my personal views
Oveur >Local shouldn't be a tactical tool, it's for chat
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Bellum Eternus
D00M.
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Posted - 2008.05.25 00:58:00 -
[193]
To the OP: while removing local is an admirable idea, your list of additional changes does nothing but move locals intel hand holding to different game mechanics.
Having any sort of active warning system for players to automatically protect them is the last thing I want to see introduced.
The whole point of removing local is to make combat more offensive and less defensive. Just put Local into 'delayed mode' and be done with it. Frankly, I'd like to see the scanner be changed so that you're only able to see the class of ship, not the exact type.
If you wanted detailed info, you'd have to get a covert ops (or any other ship fitted with a probe launcher) to drop a probe, and then you'd get detailed info on the ship, it's position, what type it is, who's flying it and it's name etc..
The game needs to move *away* from the concept of simplified dumbed down handholding gameplay and develope it into a more complex skill based (as in user interactivity) game design that rewards players that exhibit some intelligence and forthought and punishes those who are lazy and unprepared.
We need to make it *harder* to avoid PVP, not easier.
Bellum Eternus
[Vid] L E G E N D A R Y
[gold]Owing to lack of Eve-related content, signature removed. If you would like to discuss this, please mail mods@cc |
Taizu Lilith
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
Electus Matari
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Posted - 2008.05.25 01:26:00 -
[194]
I like the idea Jade!
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LongHong Dong
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Posted - 2008.05.25 01:29:00 -
[195]
If local was removed , I would expect to see a rise in packet sniffing programs. Im pretty sure CCP does not have much in outbound packet encryption.
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Brachis
Eve Liberation Force
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Posted - 2008.05.25 03:23:00 -
[196]
Originally by: LongHong Dong
If local was removed , I would expect to see a rise in packet sniffing programs. Im pretty sure CCP does not have much in outbound packet encryption.
That doesn't really make a difference. Packet sniffers simply cannot get information out of a packet if it's not being provided, and I am very confident that CCP's system doesn't send information to the player's client until they would have access to that information anyway.
If the system doesn't tell the computer how many people are in local, no amount of packet sniffing will tell you how many people are in local.
If the system doesn't tell the computer that a cloaked ship is even there until the client does something that would reveal the ship, no amount of packet sniffing will help. |
Grarr Dexx
Naval Protection Corp
Carpe Universitas
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Posted - 2008.05.25 03:28:00 -
[197]
OP finally gave me a reason why they instated a post character limit 
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Garvin Lumines
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Posted - 2008.05.25 04:43:00 -
[198]
Removing Local will have 3 effects.
1)Force people to rat in gangs, further nerfing solo piracy.
2)Ratting and mining profits will drop per hour per character, leading more 0.0 players to adopt empire based methods to generate isk. There will be more npc corp members running level 4's in CNR's, and more players doing invention and production further reducing profits in those areas.
3)Spying will become even more of a necessity in order to discern the composition and location of opposing forces. This will further empower large organizations with extensive spy networks.
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Rakaim
Rising Federation
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Posted - 2008.07.25 08:02:00 -
[199]
I stopped reading after page 1.
I like the idea - a lot. The orignal idea minus the whole "Is this system popuated" answer. I don't want to know if there's people in the system besides my gang.
_____________________________
CEO of Rising Federation [RWNX] |
Aeo IV
Amarr
Xomic OmniCorporation
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Posted - 2008.07.25 08:53:00 -
[200]
/not signed.
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J'Mkarr Soban
Amarr
Proxenetae Invicti
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Posted - 2008.07.25 09:32:00 -
[201]
Originally by: Garvin Lumines
Removing Local will have 3 effects.
1)Force people to rat in gangs, further nerfing solo piracy.
2)Ratting and mining profits will drop per hour per character, leading more 0.0 players to adopt empire based methods to generate isk. There will be more npc corp members running level 4's in CNR's, and more players doing invention and production further reducing profits in those areas.
3)Spying will become even more of a necessity in order to discern the composition and location of opposing forces. This will further empower large organizations with extensive spy networks.
For the first point - good, it brings people together.
Second, *******s. No idea where you're getting that from.
Third - good.
However, there is a fourth point - these large alliances will have to spend more resources (people) on maintaining the security of their systems, which means they have less resources available for expansion. The borders will shrink, and there will be more open space for younger, smaller alliances. At the very least they'd need a pilot in each system, preferably one on each gate, just keeping an eye on things. Or, if a POS system scanner module comes out (which I support, does the same thing as the ship scanner but has massive range and resolution) then it again forces them to withdraw from the borders and start maintaining their infrastructre, or consolodating it from their capital out.
All good things in my view.
--
These are my personal views and in no way represent the views of Proxenetae Invicti, which maintains a neutral stance stemming from the strong ethics demanded of its work. |
Pushtan
Ministry of Destruction
Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.25 09:34:00 -
[202]
ITT: idiots...
i'm sorry, but just because some people cant catch ratters, or get a fight from people unready/willing to fight them isnt cause to remove one of the oldest game features 'cus i cant kill that guy'
main posts were tl;dr, but i gather you were trying for a fleet battle and no one wanted to engage you. try and think of something that wont alter the game for your temporary ADHD problems.
Option 1: Remove the ability to talk in local - how many times have you just mashed the local bar to just show Chars? It also cuts down on server load, FAR MORE THAN SPAMMING THE SCANNER, remember Goons spamming 'FOFOFOFOFOFO' in local? yeah, well then.
Option 2: (as i read somewhere else in the post) make the scanner scan at intervals and make it about 40au...considering most systems are that size or larger.
---
Option 1 would be my suggestion as it is less stressful on the server, but (now unless youre completely oblivious to alliance intel channels and their uses - this should make an iota os sense) when the enemy is moving a fleet through your space, how can you tell how many or what alliance, if they rename their ships to [SCA] **** or [Star] **** - its gonna mess up your ability to distinguish whos who, and end up saying 'Are you the mega? No? The Mael? No...?'..........'So,' you say, 'post recons all over!'. Yeah, cus we all have 40+ recon/cov ops pilots all gagging to sit on a gate solo for hours....
You cannot expect people on fleet moves, mining ops, or guarding them in the next system to sit there spamming scanner - or just watching it tick over...Local will SUFFICE it isnt a massive problem, its just inconvenient SOMETIMES when you want a fight.
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Mecinia Lua
Galactic Express
Burning Horizons
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Posted - 2008.07.25 10:00:00 -
[203]
At a time when folks still scream that there are not enough people in 0.0 and that the load on the Empire servers is to high this would be disastrous.
You would get fewer people going to 0.0
More people would hang in empire.
This is a game, ship sensors commonly in science fiction can detect ships system wide to even systems away. I see local as an expansion of that same sci fi mechanic.
Even if you did get it removed the info most likely would still be sent to your computer in order for the server to handle locations. Someone would just write a third party program that still gave them local and their corp/alliance, thus giving an unfair advantage to them.
In the skies above the World today we track every plane so long as their locater beacon is working. Rather than the complete removal of local introduce a new rig that when installed removes you from local. It should be a fairly large calibration probably around 150 to 200. It accomplishes in some sense the same thing but without removing everyone and thus giving some semblance of safety so that droves don't stay in empire.
Thoughts expressed are mine and mine alone. They do not necessarily reflect my alliances thoughts. |
Roshan longshot
Gallente
Ordos Humanitas
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:19:00 -
[204]
"If" the jump gates are maned, should'nt local be reduced to "So and So entered systems 20 mins ago, and has not been reported leaving the system."
Or a General warning..."ATTENTION all pilots! A wanted pilot by the name of So and So has entered system at this time!" And that is all that is used.
I agree 'local' chat has alot of problems...but removing it from the game completly is just wrong.
Like it or not...not everyone is playing this game for combative PvP. And adding yet more things to do while playing a game is a drawback to people wanting to just play for a couple of hours a day.
Damn you CCP! Why did you have to make such a good game?? Yes you drew me back AGAIN! Oh well wheres the Omber? |
Amandi Casimi
Amarr
Celestial Janissaries
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:00:00 -
[205]
Why is this failed idea keep being brought up, time and time again?
Removing local will increase the need for alts to sit their all day and scan gates constantly, because to have secure space, you will need to know who is in your space. I am sorry, but removing local will break the game, hurt established 0.0 alliances, and will give unlimited power to invading forces.
Jade... let this dreamworld die...
-------------------------
Let neutrals be neutrals.
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TheG2
Gallente
Dirty Rotten Scoundrels
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:05:00 -
[206]
/signed
And the prox. alerts are a great balance. Do it CCP!
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Karando
Random Goods
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:13:00 -
[207]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
1. The map intel would need to change and stop being a free-lunch. No point being a ninja ratter watching your scanner diligently and counting on the security of a big system to protect you from bad guys when the game map is happily announcing to the entire server that youÆve killed 1001 Guristas in the last 8 hours. Anyone hoping to come and kill you should at least have to make the effort of scanning for wrecks as they pass through the system and make the connection.
Just read this paragraph when I saw you posted a wall of unrelevant RP text. Your idea is fail. Haven't you got your own forum for Carebear Stellar Managment issues?
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Neth'Rae
Gallente
Decorum Inc
Tygris Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.26 03:33:00 -
[208]
I like this idea, and it's the main reason I voted jade ^^
Also along with this some more interesting EW could be added like scanner spoofing.
I also like the idea of POS Mods that functions like a radar and detects signatures in a certain radius or in the entire solar system, which could be configured to report any hostile or neutral signatures being detected.
Request signatures at EVE-GFX |
J Kunjeh
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.07.26 04:20:00 -
[209]
Originally by: Astria Tiphareth
So let me get this straight... having local allows you to see precisely what the enemy has in system, encouraging blobbing by bringing more people than they have (a simple and obvious tactic) or encouraging docking if you don't have more people. (In fact, it's amazing anybody gets to fight at all the way local intel is described by some...)
Removing local will now also encourage blobbing? Which is it? Or is it perhaps that safety in numbers applies regardless of the intel tools used? Setting aside that a lot of players view low-sec as a no-go-area right now...
As an empire-hugger myself, I can appreciate what you're saying about local & low-sec; it's quite nifty to enter a low-sec system and see precisely who's there. On the other hand, I don't really care who's in the system in low-sec, pretty much anyone is a threat. I do care if there's a gatecamp but I won't know that without going and looking.
Overall, the way I see local at the moment is vastly over-powered, but also very simple to implement and to use. On the other hand, it's pretty trivial to write a radar system or something similar for every ship so you get an idea of what's out there, and sensor specifics and warp spikes and all that jazz can be incorporated pretty easily. I even have visions of a solar system map with compiled data for fleet commanders, the way real naval battles are conducted... The question is does it benefit the game?
Not knowing what is out there enables more tactics, more ways to confuse and defeat your foe. Feints, lures, jamming, all become possible. As already mentioned cloaks need some suitable proximity warning (I would suggest only if moving, otherwise ambushes go out the window) otherwise they become far far too powerful. Do players have time and coordination enough to pull these sorts of things off?
One issue that does come to mind: how much of an intel tool can scanning be given the use of gates? Ultimately everyone has to come through one. If scanning replaced local by some means, would this just lead to gatecamps galore? Lets assume for a moment it wouldn't, perhaps simply due to time-zones...
Conversely, not knowing what is out there reduces the ability to actually engage the enemy. For comparison, a typical submarine engagement can last days if not weeks trying to hunt the other without giving away your own position. PvP has to happen reasonably quickly otherwise it's just a time-sink with no satisfaction at all.
In short, you need a balance. Whatever scanning system is implemented needs to be easy to use, just powerful enough that it doesn't take hours to find an enemy, and just underpowered enough that it doesn't immediately replace local, in which case you've achieved nothing.
I could mention how real carrier battles are theorised (since we've not really had one in any modern military) and all about the choice to radiate or not, scouting, passive sensors, active sensors, (a lot of the same applies in different ways to submarine combat) but it's really all fluff as far as EVE is concerned. Nice to have, not the core of the concept.
I'm all for a scanning system, and seen some great ideas like spotting concentrations of ships, but it must be easy to use, still enable PvP, and not protect attackers so much that people daren't set foot outside a station. Heck, put it in empire and low-sec, I don't see why they need any special treatment.
First, I agree with Jade on the original proposal; not necessarily the specifics, but the general idea. The post above is on the money. I may have more to add later once I've thought it over more.
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gtcsellalt
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Posted - 2008.07.26 04:37:00 -
[210]
yes remove local. csm get to work ccp starting to go looney with ******ed changes... next we have a space pony that suddenly blows up an entire system on super titan.
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