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Eeon Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.04.24 23:12:00 - [1] I read this in the EVE GOLDEN RULES sticky thread at the top of the forum: "* Just HAVING ISK doesn't matter all that much, it's MAKING ISK that's important. If you BOUGHT your ISK (either "illegally" from some site, or from a valid GTC trade), expect to soon be parted with all of them." Why is "illegally" in quotes? According to the Game Policies page buying ISK clearly IS illegal. Is this supposed to imply something about how the policy is enforced, or not enforced? Also, what is a "valid GTC trade"?
Mal Lokrano	Posted - 2008.04.25 00:08:00 - [2] Edited by: Mal Lokrano on 25/04/2008 00:09:31 You can buy isk, but it it quoted because buying isk from non-sanctioned CCP sites are illegal, but CCP does have a program in which you can sell GTC codes to other players, and CCP gets the real life money from the GTC instead of a third party Isk Farmer getting real life money from the isk buyer. It is illegal cause the way isk farmers make money is by using macros to run massive mining missins and eat up fields normal players could mine themselves, plus it ruins the price of materials cause isk farmers then sell massive amounts of materials on the market which causes mass inflation of the in game money. In essence if you want to buy isk they are telling you to sell a GTC and not buy from an isk farmer. A valid GTC trade is when you sell a GTC to another character using the special section of the Eve main website.
Stefx Gallente Moons of Pluto	Posted - 2008.04.25 00:09:00 - [3] Legal GTC trade rules ----------- MOP recruiting Industrialists/miners/traders/missioners/etc
Eeon Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.04.25 01:29:00 - [4] Wow, that's really disapointing. I hate RMT. Looks like for about 15$ you can get about 150 million ISK. I've worked for WEEKS to get just 2 million together. It's hard to imagine that wouldn't give someone a pretty significant advantage. I just hate this stuff. I feel that the ONLY thing your character should have is what you achieved IN GAME. Anything else is cheating. I was just starting to really enjoy EVE too.. EVE has just gone down ALOT in my opinion though. This is the kind of thing I generally leave games because of.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.04.25 02:11:00 - [5] Edited by: MotherMoon on 25/04/2008 02:11:38 Originally by: Eeon Wow, that's really disapointing. I hate RMT. Looks like for about 15$ you can get about 150 million ISK. I've worked for WEEKS to get just 2 million together. It's hard to imagine that wouldn't give someone a pretty significant advantage. I just hate this stuff. I feel that the ONLY thing your character should have is what you achieved IN GAME. Anything else is cheating. I was just starting to really enjoy EVE too.. EVE has just gone down ALOT in my opinion though. This is the kind of thing I generally leave games because of. Read up on it it's not quite as evil as it sounds, the GTC system allows players would play eve to never pay to play any more. in others words eve is a free to play mmorpg for those willing to make the isk. and trust me after a year in the game you better be making 10 mil an hour if not up to 30 mil an hour. making 150 mil a day or spending 15$ for it. But yeah if you have the time to play eve and make 150 mil isk a month (not very hard after a while) eve becomes free for you. you never give the other player any money only game time.
Eeon Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.04.25 02:49:00 - [6] Sorry for the rant.. It mostly bothers me from an RP standpoint. It also just takes the fun out of things for me. I like the challenge of being new to a game and having to find ways to get money. Knowing that I could just wip out the credit card at any time and suddenly be rich ingame is annoying... I'll just have to take some time and think about it. Decide wether I can get past this and continue to enjoy the game.
Billy Sastard Amarr Life. Universe. Everything. Wrath.	Posted - 2008.04.25 03:28:00 - [7] Originally by: Eeon Sorry for the rant.. It mostly bothers me from an RP standpoint. It also just takes the fun out of things for me. I like the challenge of being new to a game and having to find ways to get money. Knowing that I could just wip out the credit card at any time and suddenly be rich ingame is annoying... I'll just have to take some time and think about it. Decide wether I can get past this and continue to enjoy the game. Being rich in game means jackall if you have nothing trained up to put that ISK to use. -=^=- My views do not represent my alliance. TBH, my posts do not even represent my own views...I am posting while asleep.
Havohej Minmatar The Defias Brotherhood	Posted - 2008.04.25 04:14:00 - [8] Originally by: Eeon Sorry for the rant.. It mostly bothers me from an RP standpoint. It also just takes the fun out of things for me. I like the challenge of being new to a game and having to find ways to get money. Knowing that I could just wip out the credit card at any time and suddenly be rich ingame is annoying... I'll just have to take some time and think about it. Decide wether I can get past this and continue to enjoy the game. It's NOT one of those games where it's free to play, but you spent 20 bucks and the company maxes out a skill for you. To be honest, I can understand where you're coming from, but it's really NOT that big of a deal the way it's currently set up. There's really nothing I can think of that would clearly illustrate what makes this okay, but as Mother said before me, just read up on the issue. Look at eve-search.com (basically a mirror of these forums with a better search feature) and search RMT, or look in General Discussion's first few pages - you should find plenty of the recent debate stuff on this very topic with well-reasoned explanations. Also, there have recently been a dev blog or two about it which explains it very well. Welcome to EVE - New Eden is your oyster... if you take it. л┬╥▬─ ~ ~ ~
Kahega Amielden	Posted - 2008.04.25 04:43:00 - [9] EVE is not a game where you will become uber by buying your way ahead. Skills mean a lot, by the time you have the skills to fly something well you'll have the ISK to fly it anyway. Think of it this way: the only way to give yourself a significant advantage would be to spend inordinate amounts of money. There was a noob who trained up the bare minimum skills for a mothership and then spent almost a thousand dollars on ISK to buy it. He then promptly lost it.
Sparkinator	Posted - 2008.04.25 05:02:00 - [10] Edited by: Sparkinator on 25/04/2008 05:02:25 RMT as become an essential part of EVE, in my opinion. It lets some people use real money to fund their PVPing, which can be very expensive, and lets the one buying the GTC play for free as they mine or mission, it keeps everyone happy. The players supply each other, and it lets those unable to pay keep playing, and is a very nice draw to the game. It is a very nice balance, the more you play the clearer it will become. --------------------------- Your neighborhood sociopath.

Eeon Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.04.25 06:22:00 - [11] Yeah, I've read some of the other threads, and heard people's arguements. None of them seem to really address the issues I have with it though. Like I said before, it's bad for RP. It takes away the early challenge of learning to make money and "bootstrapping" yourself up in a new game. I also personally like to have my MMO life seperate from my RL life. Being wealthy in RL should not translate into being wealthy in my games. It just doesn't sit right with me. It never has and I doubt it ever will. Wether it means I'll be quitting EVE is something I'll have to decide for myself. It is a bummer though. I had so much respect for EVE before I found this out. It is a rare game that presents the class-less, pure-skill based, sandbox style game play that I love so much. And it's only because of that that I'm not just quitting imediately because of this. I'll just have to think about it. Thank you all for you replies.
Upright Amarr Dirt Nap Squad	Posted - 2008.04.25 06:41:00 - [12] I think your making it out to be a bigger problem than you think. Honestly i have never purchased ISK or bought GTC's for RL money. I have enough isk to fund both of my accounts and my pvp through a few hours a day of playing. This saves me $30 a month on all my bills, which to me is a big benefit. I have known guys who buy like 15 30 day GTC and sell them for isk to fund their new corps. They buy BPO's, POS's etc with the isk. Gets them started along their way rather than missioning for months on end to achieve these goals. Anyone who truly abuses the system though, funding outposts and titans with RL cash is fine with to be honest, when i blow up the titan or take over the outpost all the sweater for me. :)
sh'anim	Posted - 2008.04.25 07:19:00 - [13] Edited by: sh''anim on 25/04/2008 07:18:59 Originally by: Upright all the sweater for me. :) I does get kinda cold in space, so a good sweater is essential in keeping you warm :) Ill try to be a bit more serouis from here on ;) I do agree is annoying that people can just buy ingame money with real money, it doesnt seem fair, but hey neither is life. So look at it as some sort of ingame mechanic wich imitates real life, Crime pays in RL and crime pays in EVE.. I dont think that really helps, but it's just my point of view
Nicholai Stropkov Article 58	Posted - 2008.04.25 09:26:00 - [14] Originally by: Eeon Looks like for about 15$ you can get about 150 million ISK. WTF, 2 years and 9 months old char. that needs weeks to get 2 millions and doesn't know about GTC? troll or ebay?
Mara Rinn Minmatar	Posted - 2008.04.25 11:22:00 - [15] Originally by: Nicholai Stropkov troll or ebay? RMT company troll, IMO. I'm an ISK seller. I farm 150M ISK a month to buy my monthly GTC. Someone else paid about $15 to buy that GTC. The money goes to CCP to keep the game going, the ISK leaves the account of a participating social player. CCP has set up a mechanism to trade which means that I never have to see the seller's credit card number, so all three parties get what they want with no risk from credit card fraud, identity theft, or ISK transfer reversal. If you have issues with people gaining ISK using out-of-game means from an RP viewpoint, how do you reconcile that with the professional unemployed people who play 18 hours a day getting more ISK per day than people who play 2 hours a day? The characters exist in the same universe with the same flow of time. I'm capable of earning 10M ISK an hour - why should someone who is only capable of earning 5M ISK an hour be better off than me simply because he spends his life playing the game? There you go Mr RMT troll, I've fed you. Now bugger off.
Sparkinator	Posted - 2008.04.25 12:37:00 - [16] Originally by: Eeon Yeah, I've read some of the other threads, and heard people's arguements. None of them seem to really address the issues I have with it though. Like I said before, it's bad for RP. It takes away the early challenge of learning to make money and "bootstrapping" yourself up in a new game. I also personally like to have my MMO life seperate from my RL life. Being wealthy in RL should not translate into being wealthy in my games. It just doesn't sit right with me. It never has and I doubt it ever will. Wether it means I'll be quitting EVE is something I'll have to decide for myself. It is a bummer though. I had so much respect for EVE before I found this out. It is a rare game that presents the class-less, pure-skill based, sandbox style game play that I love so much. And it's only because of that that I'm not just quitting imediately because of this. I'll just have to think about it. Thank you all for you replies. Sounds like this is just a personal problem then. No one is forcing you to buy it, and this has NOTHING to do with "roleplaying". None in the least. I have no clue how you tied that into it. Starting off became roleplaying? Also, you seem to have purchased an almost 3 year old character. And you don't think RMT is good?...
Eeon Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.04.25 16:22:00 - [17] Originally by: Mara Rinn Originally by: Nicholai Stropkov troll or ebay? If you have issues with people gaining ISK using out-of-game means from an RP viewpoint, how do you reconcile that with the professional unemployed people who play 18 hours a day getting more ISK per day than people who play 2 hours a day? The characters exist in the same universe with the same flow of time. I'm capable of earning 10M ISK an hour - why should someone who is only capable of earning 5M ISK an hour be better off than me simply because he spends his life playing the game? There you go Mr RMT troll, I've fed you. Now bugger off. I'm not an RMT troll or an ebayer. I played the game a couple years ago for about a month, and just recently re-activated my account. Also, if I was an RMT troll, why would I be argueing against all RMT? And as for those of you that say it has nothing to do with RP, well for me the idea of some entity outside the game world funneling huge amounts of cash into my characters account is unrealistic. Seems like simple enough logic to me. And the idea that poeple who play more shouldn't have more cash because of that, well some people in real life are more active than others, so it makes sense that in EVE some people are more active too. Originally by: Sparkinator Sounds like this is just a personal problem then. No one is forcing you to buy it, You're right, and as I already stated earlier in the thread it's something I'll have to think about and decide for myself wether I'll continue playing or not.
Sparkinator	Posted - 2008.04.26 07:08:00 - [18] Quote: And as for those of you that say it has nothing to do with RP, well for me the idea of some entity outside the game world funneling huge amounts of cash into my characters account is unrealistic. Seems like simple enough logic to me. It must really irk you when you pay for the game monthly, or have to sign in, or read in the news/updates stuff out of the game. Don't become too obsessed with this, it's unhealthy. It is a game, the only life you live is your own. Play it as a game, not some second life. You will go insane if you try. --------------------------- Your neighborhood sociopath.
Wolf Fang Black Thorne Corporation	Posted - 2008.04.26 08:57:00 - [19] I don't think I've seen an MMO to date that doesn't have people selling in game money for real $, so if it bothers you that much I'd stick to playing single payer games. CCP has made the isk selling for this game public to stop people getting scammed out of money then quiting game because of it. A good think me thinks. (I have never bought isk and never will I don't think I should have to pay to play then pay agin, I would however swap isk for a GTC.) =============================================== IT'S NOT ABOUT YOU DYING FOR YOUR CORP..... IT'S ABOUT MAKING YOUR ENEMIES DIE FOR THEIRS.
maccrat	Posted - 2008.04.26 12:53:00 - [20] i see nowhere where ccp say its legal buying isk m8 :p id re read

Joe Starbreaker Starbreaker Spaceways	Posted - 2008.04.26 19:12:00 - [21] Originally by: Eeon Like I said before, it's bad for RP. It takes away the early challenge of learning to make money and "bootstrapping" yourself up in a new game. I also personally like to have my MMO life seperate from my RL life. Being wealthy in RL should not translate into being wealthy in my games. Here's a roleplaying way to explain it. There are billions and trillions of people in the universe, and only a few hundred thousand capsuleers. To earn the right to represent your empire/corporation as a capsuleer (instead of a regular NPC crew member) one must earn favor with the powers that be. Let's say that buying game time (an out of game transaction whether you do it or somebody else does it for you) represents earning/maintaining favor with your betters. You can either pay for this favor using your own skills and connections (RL money), or you can pay an ISK bribe to a fellow like me who is willing to bribe the higher-ups on your behalf. Just an idea. --- I'm looking for a good 0.0 corp to join.
Eeon Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.04.27 23:05:00 - [22] Edited by: Eeon on 27/04/2008 23:08:41 Edited by: Eeon on 27/04/2008 23:07:44 Thanks for the suggestion Starbeaker. I guess there are ways to create an RP explanation for starting out rich. I've spent some time thinking about it and decided that I like EVE enough to overlook all this GTC stuff. I'm not going to sell any GTCs though, and just continue to play the game as I have been. As has been mentioned in this thread, there is always going to be RMT in any MMO I play. In every other game I've played it's always been there, and always bothered me. The only difference here is that the company is condoning it, which means that it is probably quite a bit more prevalent. But, I think I can accept that. My goal is to just get very good at making money in EVE so that I will eventually be able to compete without selling GTCs, as many people in this thread and in others have said thay're able to do. Any suggestions on the best ways to make money in EVE?
Miss Haur	Posted - 2008.04.28 13:46:00 - [23] Running L4 missions in high-sec is a fairly good way to make an income, you can make 10-20mil an hour if you can run them fairly well and have a good kill agent. Manufacturing can also be profitable, but for this you really need very high manufacturing skills, and blueprints for the more profitable items. Note these can change at any time as ships/fittings become FOTM. Trading can provide nice returns, but you really need to find profitable goods to trade, have a decent starting capital (few hundred mil minimum), and the ability to get online over a long period each day. In trading, logging on for 5 mins every hour or so is better than logging on for a couple hours in one go.
Eleana Tomelac Gallente Through the Looking Glass	Posted - 2008.04.28 14:04:00 - [24] One simple, easy to do but not huge in terms of income is making ammo. There are always people in need of ammo somewhere in the galaxy. Just watch closely your production costs vs selling price. There are area where ammo price is higher and still the amount sold is not bad. If you're also running missions at same time as making ammo, you may go for faction ammo selling, it will be like selling the LPs you earned by running missions. Ammo and faction ships are the most simple things you can do with LPs, and most corps have them, just look at what one LP is worth to you. -- Pocket drone carriers (tm) enthousiast ! Assault Frigates MK II
Asestorian Domination. Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.28 14:05:00 - [25] I think a good way to look at the GTC system is as the lesser of two evils. It's widely considered to be fact that you cannot ever truly remove RMT from an MMO; there will always be people willing to buy an advantage in some way. EVE is lucky in that all people can really buy is wealth, which is easily removed from their grasp if they don't have the experience and knowledge to back it up. However, to continue on with the point; GTCs do less damage to the game than normal RMT methods. Essentially GTCs allow people who have that urge to get their ISK, but at the same time give CCP the real life money, let someone else play the game who otherwise may not be able to, and doesn't rely on someone sitting in a belt 23/7 whoring NPCs, injecting ridiculous amounts of ISK into the game. If you can't get rid of the problem entirely, there's nothing wrong with creating a less destructive form of it. At least as far as I'm concerned. --- Quote: Welcome to EVE, a PvP game where people are - shockingly - allowed to PvP as much as they like.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.04.28 14:08:00 - [26] Originally by: Eeon Why is "illegally" in quotes? According to the Game Policies page buying ISK clearly IS illegal. Is this supposed to imply something about how the policy is enforced, or not enforced? Also, what is a "valid GTC trade"? The word "illegal" is in quotes because it's only forbidden by the TOS/EULA, it's not a real-life crime. Yes, you will get that ISK removed from your account if you buy it from some random site, and you might even get your account banned if you keep doing it... but you won't get the police at your door nor a lawsuit. The other guys explained what a GTC trade is, and why that is somewhat superficially similar to buying ISK from one of those sites... however, it's not the same. Might want to read this. It's a big one, but you'll get the gist of it. 1\|2\|3\|4\|5.
Eeon Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.04.28 16:55:00 - [27] Thanks for all the replies everyone. The perspective of more experienced EVE players on this issue helps. Especially knowing that I can compete without engaging in selling GTCs. The idea of working my way up to L4 missions sounds like a good way to go for me. I'll probably try my hand at making and selling ammo as well. And thank you all for "talking me down off my ledge". I was very, very close to quitting EVE because of this, and I think that would have been a mistake. EVE is so good in so many ways, and based on your replies it doesn't seem like GTC selling really ruins EVE. I'm still not convinced it's a good thing, but it doesn't seem like it's going to be something that ruins my experience or renders me un-able to compete.
Grarr Dexx Amarr Naval Protection Corp Carpe Universitas	Posted - 2008.04.28 20:49:00 - [28] CCP troll trying to get more subscribers!
Eeon Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.04.28 22:39:00 - [29] Originally by: Grarr Dexx CCP troll trying to get more subscribers! Whatever...
Mara Rinn Minmatar	Posted - 2008.04.29 02:09:00 - [30] Originally by: Eeon Whatever... Sadly this topic comes up often enough, with people complaining that it doesn't seem right, that everyone who uses the facility gets a little aggravated - it's like having a grass seed stuck in your sock ("are you sure it's okay to wear socks? I mean, socks with sandals is pretty daggy, it doesn't seem right to me..."). Look through this channel of the forums - I reckon about 1 in 5 posts is, "trading ISK for GTC doesn't seem fair to me". For people like me, that complaint is about as meaningful as, "blowing ships up after the pilot has paid a ransom doesn't seem fair to me." For me, earning the ISK to pay for a GTC is part of the game. For someone else, spending an extra $15 a month so they can lose more ships in PvP combat or buy more fuel for their POS is also part of the game. As the tutorial says, "Welcome to the world of capitalism and piracy!"



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