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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.28 20:28:00 -
[1]
 Originally by: Matrixcvd
Speed is fine, the nano "age" has replaced the frig age, the BS age etc for roaming, but that is all, for small gang and fast roaming PVP, recons and hac's are the most effective, but thats not in all situations...
The problem is that nanos haven't just added to, they've completely taken over pvp. Nanos aren't just for small gang pvp. They're for most anything (except low sec and pos shooting).
Its not unheard of to see nano gangs 40-50ppl strong. Your own killboard shows the use of large nano gangs backed by caps. Nanos have taken over.
Nanos were supposed to be used for the skirmish role. What we're seeing is they're being preferred over the use of battleships for fleets. The only practical limitation of nano fleets is when they grow large enough to cause lag to endanger themselves.
And the best thing to counter a nano fleet? An even larger nano fleet. For the most part there isn't any reason to fly anything except nanos.
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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.29 16:12:00 -
[2]
*cry* long response...wiped by silly forum software...*cry*
Originally by: Matrixcvd
Snipers fullfil roles besides POS shooting,
Yet small sniper gangs are a death sentence. It used to be viable but as things move faster snipers cannot compete. Unless its a large sniper fleet not going anywhere the pilots would be better served in nanos.
Originally by: Matrixcvd
Speed fits, RR BS's are designed to allow small groups of pilots to engage larger groups and when run effectively can at least engage 2 to 3 times the number of pilots when the smaller fleet is well organized and highly skilled/trained.
The rr bs gang must commit and takes on quite a bit more risk. Any decent fc can take a random nano gang and engage a force 2-3 larger without much worry. Some nanos will be lost but no where as bad as any other type of gang. Most of these losses seem to be pilots on their first speed gangs (ie vagas going within web range).
If the nano gang doesn't leroy they can go toe to toe with a larger force. This isn't a skirmisher role.
Originally by: Matrixcvd
What you are seeing now is the larger blob alliances which have always relied on numbers for protection are using the same ships as the majority of their members reach appropriate skill times.
Wait, what? Large alliances have a large spread of sp from 2mil to 30-50mil sp. What we're seeing is the result of months of yelling to train for nanos/nano support. The members are being told that only nanos/nano support/caps are acceptable. The members are realizing that nanos are the most effective.
Originally by: Matrixcvd
Can you move a battleship around as quick as a cruiser, regardless of mwd/ab whatever? no, if being quick is what you need, nanohac
Can we agree to remove mwd? No? No one loves nanos for their ability to warp from system to system. No fitting is designed around align time and warp time. We don't fit rigs for faster warps. Istabs are used to turn as speed, not for faster aligns.
Being able to shuffle from system to system quickly is a side benefit. Going fast is what people are after.
Originally by: Matrixcvd
if you can get snipers in to a system and cover their warp in /warp out, use them. none of the things you discuss are actual mechanics issues
Snipers are at a disadvantage to nanos in nearly every way. Only very large non mobile sniper fleets are viable. There isn't much reason to fly anything besides nanos.
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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.29 17:02:00 -
[3]
Originally by: TheEndofTheWorld
5 nanoships has zero chance against a 5 shortrange BS gang.
Things aren't static.
If the BS are defensive the nanos will zip around, gank anyone outside of bs range, and leave at will. The bs gang wasn't effective.
If offensive the nanos will try to dictor the bs, or catch one warping. Slow them down and call in reinforcements. The bs gang is much more likely to wipe. They have to be very careful with every move and watch out for a cyno to open on top of them.
Originally by: TheEndofTheWorld
Any decent nanogang FC will RUN when they are outnumbered 2 to 3 times against a decent opponent.
Only if the opponent has enough nanos/huginns/rapiers. Need a nano to effectively catch a nano.
Originally by: TheEndofTheWorld
Could you give me examples who actually uses nanoships over BSes for alliance ops? Battleships >>> nanoships in almost every fight
For pos fights battleships are preferred but nanos are used 99% of the time while waiting. Most pos "fights" are waiting so nanos are the thing. Add fighters for dps.
For alliance ops with hostile titans on the field nanos are preferred (Bob was big on this one).
For roaming alliance ops nanos are preferred (pick).
For defensive alliance ops nanos are preferred (pick).
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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.29 19:59:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Tuncan
Just find a way to counter it, and there is always a way to counter it.
The most effective way to counter it is to fly nanos. This is what is depressing. Most of the tactics and fights we used to have are now spasmic twitch based face offs.
I think *everyone* recognizes the rock-paper-scissors direction we're going.
Soon we'll see more and more huginn/rapier gangs and the nano folks will whine that specialized webbers are overpowered.
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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.29 22:02:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Kruel
Even if that were changed however, people still won't fit an AB in nullsec because of bubbles. So I say we make bubbles only usable for those who have sovereignty in the area of space they're bubbling. Isn't the idea of bubbles to keep people out of your systems? Instead we find a bubble at every 0.0 chokepoint, even if it's NPC controlled.
Bubbles aren't exactly an effective defensive strategy currently. Since every thing runs a mwd a bubble has to be well camped to get even a few kills. Watch what happens when a large fleet jumps into a bubble. The lag is more effective than the bubble.
A bubble is simply an anchorable warp probe. So are you saying that dictors/hics shouldn't be used except when someone has sov in that space? Get rid of the bubbles and we'll be back to using a few dictors.
On the other hand if mwd has tougher penalties than more may choose to use an AB. Fighting at a gate would be over one side trying to shoot the bubble and the other trying to rep it.
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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.30 19:20:00 -
[6]
Edited by: *****zilla on 30/04/2008 19:22:14
Originally by: DeadDuck
Really why the hell a module supposed to increase the velocity doesnt need any cpu/PG requirements ??? I can understand that in nanofibers internal structures but a space "turbo engine" ??
To nitpick:
The mwd is the turbo attached to a 4 cylinder with a overheated nox.
The nanofibers are carbon fiber side skirts and air scoops. This doesn't make you go faster. It lightens the vehicle so that less power is required to go faster. On the other hand with that much carbon fiber it won't hold as much luggage before breaking up at speeds.
Overdrives are just the 4" can in the back. Maybe an extra large air scoop up top. And of course the racing stripe down the center. And the spoiler in the back.
But I do like the suggestion of adding cpu/pg. If it did add pg then the 2x lse tank on a nano wouldn't be very doable with a full rack of guns.
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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.30 20:24:00 -
[7]
Originally by: NightmareX
you don't know that nano ships IS THE TOOL to blobs, jeez, you fail.
1) Blobs are bad
2) Nanos allow engagements with blobs with reduced risk
3) Blobs can't effectively counter nanos (actually kill them)
4) Blobs fly nanos
5) Nanos bring more nanos until they too blob
6) Blobs are bad
Originally by: NightmareX
But ofc, like you, you are in GoonSwarm, so you HAVE to use tons of nano ships to be able to kill anything, because you suck donkey.
And yet Tri brings 40-50man nano gangs they're looking for a nice little fight? Blobs reduce risk. Nanos reduce risk. Nanos in a blob reduce a lot of risk.
Originally by: NightmareX
When you are out and roaming, then you can meet all kind of other gangs. And when our 30 man nano gang jumps into a 15 man gang, it's not our fault that their are in our way when we are going after targets of all kind of sizes.
By this rational no one blobs. Ever.
Originally by: NightmareX
If we take a 100 man nano gang into a 40 man gang that WE KNOW about, then yes, it's blobbing.
I don't know many that do this. Usually they wait for enough rapiers/huginns. Then they wait for the numbers to be somewhat equal. Then they leroy in with maybe 75-80% of the numbers. Seen this over and over.
They take losses. Once its a announced that a fight is *actually* occuring versus nano vagatry a whole lot of people start flooding in. Many out of gang and not asked by the fc. By the time the field is ready to be looted the numbers have skewed wildly.
Then the nano gang whines about being blobbed. They crow about their kills from the first group that leroyed. They wonder why they can't get good fights.
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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.30 21:47:00 -
[8]
Edited by: *****zilla on 30/04/2008 21:55:52
Originally by: NightmareX
Again, you still don't get what i say.
Your words are feeble and poorly choosen? If English isn't your first language just say so and we'll understand.
Originally by: NightmareX
You only reply on how YOU are with your crappy skills on handling nano gangs and to understand that blobs is a BIG problem in EVE, and therefor nano ships is good for evading that ****.
So:
1) Blobs = non nanos
2) Nanos cannot be a blob? Gotcha
Hey, I love flying nanos. I'd like to fly something else in my hangar but that isn't a reasonable choice is it? My alts nav skills are all at about level 5, recon 5, most of my support skills are maxed out. In terms of sp I think all I'm missing is maxing some gunnery skills.
In terms of pvp, nanos get me way more kills and fewer deaths versus flying non nanos. Most of my deaths are after the fc says "i need a volunteer...". Spending isk on speed is the only way to go.
Killing small nanos gangs is usually simple and painless. Because I fly nanos. Because I fly nanos with a bunch of other people in gang. We blob. But with nanos.
Originally by: NightmareX
Again, blobs is a problem, and then we have nano fitted ships to make sure that the noob blobbers have something to whine about. Because they suck at PVP and then whine because their 856758678676 noobs can't kill anything.
Non nanos whine about not killing nanos. A nano blob excels at killing nanos.
Non nanos aren't ok. But a nano blob regardless of numbers is fine?
So you agree that the big problem is folks flying t1 stuff? That players choose to not nano? That its utterly foolish to not fly nanos? That there isn't any role left for a new player just starting the game? That if someone can't spend the months to fly a t2 ship with great skills and doing at least 3km/s that they shouldn't undock?
We fly nanos so we can feel elite. So we can tell newer players that they don't have what it takes. So we can blob and gank solo targets that frankly don't have a chance.
Originally by: 0raven0
/signed to the OP. I pretty much fly polycarbed nanoships 100% of the time now that thats the only way to fight and I have a lot of fun doing it,...
Yet you still want to fly non nanos. Silly wabbit.
Originally by: 0raven0
... but I am leaving the game because I would have more fun if I could use the rest of the ships in my hangar...
Yes, saw the previous announcement. Will be sad to see you leave. I know our corp has lost a few for the same reason. Some started to play only on sisi so they could get a good fight. Then they got bored and left.
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Actually, nano blobs tend not to work in my experience. They're slow (don't cover ground efficiently), and don't perform their functions well enough.
Can't say the same. Some gangs like remote rep battleships don't scale well. But nano gangs its all up to experience of the pilot and the fc.
Once you get the gang large enough with enough nano logistics and nano support (falcons) it removes most risks of death except versus a much larger non nano gang. Pilots still do silly things. But they learn. Then large nano gangs become very dangerous.
While a large nano gang may not be as smooth as a smaller nano gang it beats the pants off of anything not nano'd.
Originally by: NightmareX
Use the right battleship with the right setup and you will go mega rofl over the whole nano gang .
Do you have an example of this actually working? I can see maybe killing a tackler or two not paying attention. Maybe I'm not finding the right player on the TRI killboards. I haven't pvp'd seriously with this char in a long time and it seems I've got more kills on the TRI killboards than yourself. Eh, I miss the days that t2 loot was worth something.
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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.30 22:29:00 -
[9]
Originally by: NightmareX
Maybe try it?
I have. Tried the neut domi. Tried the drones. Webber drones. etc. Finally gave up and trained for nanos. Not saying that a battleship can't kill nanos. Just that its not effective. Using nanos to kill nanos works just so much better.
Originally by: NightmareX
...with the right setup it works....Unlucky i haven't had the chance to get into a fight like that on TQ yet, because i normally fly sniper Tempest's atm. Sisi is a good place to test things like that out you know
Thats the truth. Anti nano setups like that should stay on sisi. What works on sisi doesn't mean it'll work on TQ. However a ship shouldn't have to completely gimp itself to kill nanos. And a sniper tempest isn't difficult for nanos to kill.
A cookie cutter nano works in nearly all cases. A bs or other ship needs to fit out specifically to handle nanos or it doesn't have much of a chance. And those anti nano setups often gimp a bs against anything else. So the anti nano setup kinda sucks against nanos, and isn't very effective against much else. Where a cookie cuuter nano setup works most anywhere.
Originally by: NightmareX
Many times when i have been in FFA 1 on sisi in my Tempest, i have sometimes been attacked by 2-3 nano hac's at the same time.
All of those fights have either been kills for me, or they just leave. WOW, it's not hard.
If they leave thats a draw, not a win. If you kill them it doesn't mean much either. Its sisi. It only proves that under ideal conditions a gimped anti nano setup battleship can kill a few nanos willing to leroy.
Originally by: NightmareX
If you don't believe me, i can fraps some fights from sisi and PROOVE it to you, if your that stupid that you need it on fraps to believe it.
Fraps it. But on TQ.
Then switch to flying your vagabond and tell me which is easier.
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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2008.05.01 04:12:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Sirius Problem
You mean like weapons? Is it broken that a PvP ship must have weapons?
There is a choice of weapons. There isn't a choice of none/AB/MWD.
Logistics and jammers must have mwd, however weapons are optional on these. Then you've got the neut domi without traditional weaps in the high but it must have a mwd. Going fast should be a niche role. Instead everything must go fast.
Originally by: Sirius Problem
Assuming a MWD would still offer a great speed boost than an AB, how is buffing the AB or nerfing the MWD going to change anything? Players will still fit the MWD because it allows them to go faster.
It allows for a choice. If not all fit mwd, then a mwd might not be needed to compete. A mwd would be a niche mod with heavy drawbacks. An AB might be the standard. Then we get the classical rock paper scissors where MWD beats AB, AB bests nothing, but nothing might have the cap to beat MWD (say a blaster boat with mwd burning to a slower traditionally tanked ship). Choices.
Originally by: Sirius Problem
If every module, rig, and implant that gives a bonus to speed was removed from the game, players would tend to favour the faster ships and eventually the whines would be posted about how everything is "broken" because ship ABC is too fast compared to ship XYZ.
If the ships aren't an order of magnitude faster than others this won't be a huge problem. Normal tacklers can use normal webs to close this small difference. Assault frigs would have a role.
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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2008.05.01 14:28:00 -
[11]
Originally by: NightmareX
How often do you see a Sniper Muninn kill a Nano Zealot?
Who knows. Not many are silly enough to fly a Muninn in the first place. Thats like a fight between a nano Archon and a nano Thanatos. Someone that shows up in a Muninn would probably be yelled at to stop goofing around and switch to their vaga.
So a ship thats rarely flown popped a ship that doesn't nano that well. On a test server where everything is free. Congrats?
A ship thats setup for range shoots at range unscrammed short range ship that could warp at any time. Or we say that the zealot did get close. You may as well have used short range ammo, forced the zealot to waste cap by burning the mwd excessively then used your own mwd to keep the zealot in scram but outside his optimal. On ship that uses cap for weapons so you essential kite him till his cap is zero. *yawn*.
Originally by: Matrixcvd
YOU CANT DO EVERYTHING BY YOURSELF
Yet by flying a nano I almost can. Yes dps is an issue. But a relatively minor issue. Nanos make great tacklers. They've got good buffer tanks to wait for the calvary. And the nano blob fixes the dps issue.
Originally by: Matrixcvd
 there is no problem with speed
speed has evolved to cover distance and deal with blobs, anyone who thinks otherwise is an Rtard
just cause a module needs to be fit doesn't make it unbalanced
you do not have to save a module from extinction by shoving changes down the other players throats
if you are a crappy player and whine on the forum, you will continue to remain crappy
Did you have a job as Iraq Information Minister in a previous life?
So someone wishes to take away your unbalanced toys so *they* are rtards? Have you heard the phrase "play nice with others"? We've yet to see a calm and reasonable arguement from you that addresses the issues the OP raised. Merely "don't change anything as it works for me".
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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2008.05.01 16:20:00 -
[12]
Originally by: NightmareX
... If you say Muninn is crap, it's only because your also crap...
I think I see a pattern... (no, not that I overuse elipses)
Originally by: NightmareX
Does it really matter if the stuffs on sisi is free or not?. The point again is that i DID kill that nano Zealot. And the nano Zealot i did kill did like 3-4k m/s.
Folks don't fly stuff on sisi the same way as TQ. They play around. They don't worry about being killed. They experiment. I wouldn't claim that my nano Archon setup is valid on TQ because I speed tanked about 10 dreads on sisi(seriously, this worked. once).
You might be serious on Sisi. Many aren't. Sisi allows folks to find out how far they can the push the envelope before things pop. Often they fly ships for the first time on Sisi fully pimped out and without a clue of how to use them. Its how we learn.
One success does not validate a tactic or skills.
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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2008.05.01 19:25:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Zhecao Vai
Do you really want to make EVE a game where positioning isn't important? I don't. I think it is the biggest element contributing to what tactics exist in combat.
A reasonable coherent response.
I agree that positioning should be important. The issue is that whoever has a mwd can nearly guarantee positioning versus someone who does not. So MWD is a must have and nothing else will do.
Ceptors and frigs aren't a huge issue. They do highly the issue between the AB and MWD. Fixing the ab/mwd would hopefully also fix assault frigs.
Imagine a balanced world of AB and mwd. Let say we all fly cruisers for now.
You could fly no ab/mwd and rely on blues to create warp ins for you. Useful for a sniper. In a small gang you could use two ceptors with one as an ongrid warp to sling and the other as the final warp to spot. You gain a mid slot, have no penalties, but need friends for positioning.
The other possibility is the ab. This has minimal penalties, good cap usage. Likely a standard fitting. You can still use friends for slings. Slow and steady.
And the mwd. Heavy heavy penalties. Cannot be perma run except on frigs. Cruisers etc can run for a cycle or two. Very short bursts of speed. This retains the role of ceptors as tacklers. Cruisers can control range but they're vulnerable to the slow and steady between bursts.
Yes a vaga must currently pulse the mwd. However it doesn't effect the tactics that much. Its not like you watch him go fast, time the align and your mwd to catch him as he's running out of steam.
Some nanos can perma run the mwd (ie: nano scimitar + t2 mwd + a few large shield transfers). The vaga could trade buffer tank for cap recharge but why? The mwd goes fast enough and lasts long enough. Lse t2 2x works better.
The issue is that currently many fights are a matter of looking at your max speed versus the hostiles. And thats that.
Overheating helps a bit, but many ships can perma run or can nearly perma run the mwd. Even a bs can run a mwd for more than enough time to get out of a bubble.
Most of the tactics for positioning before speed was big are dead. Positioning currently isn't important. Speed is. Control speed and you control range and the outcome of the fight.
Tactics have devolved so they now are mostly about who can hit the mwd hotkey and go faster.
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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2008.05.01 20:05:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Matrixcvd
its not important, its everything... and thats the point, guns with fall off, missiles with TOF, reppers, ECM, fall off, everything has range to it, controlling range means controlling the fight... current system is fine... you just need tactics
Nope. Just mwd. Mwd has replaced tactics. Go fast enough and you control *everything*.
Originally by: Matrixcvd
viable tactic since 2003... what are u suggesting, its not done now?
Its been mostly replaced by the nano.
Originally by: Matrixcvd
You missed F1, F2, F3 etc,
If the speeds aren't close, the fight is already over. If the speed issue cannot be dealt with then the other elements don't matter.
We've gone over the ineffectiveness of most "anti-nano" counters in detail. Repeatedly.
Originally by: Matrixcvd
Your OVERSIMPLIFICATION of combat is to the point where it makes it utterly incorrect and garbage, your KB stats are garbage, your ship fits are garbage, and now you continue to spew verbal garbage on the forums,
Gah. Back to the personal insults. At least be creative.
This char has more losses as it doesn't use nanos. Not sure who your alts are but otherwise our kb stats aren't that far off.
Originally by: Matrixcvd
... you know nothing of this game and clearly represent the failure that is the current nanowhine crowd
Which is a large percentage of the players. A large percentage that are frustrated with how things are going. Who are bored. Who aren't playing as much and losing interest. Who are watching friends quit.
When games pander to higher level characters and exclude low sp folks bad things happen.
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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2008.05.01 23:46:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Cautet
...carriers ...are far and away THE biggest deciders in a fight.
Cap/pos warfare is problematic. But thats for another thread. I'm not a fan of caps but thats the direction I went. Alt went for nanos. I know quite a few people changed from training up bs or command ship skills to nanos. So nanos are the new blob.
We've adapted. Doesn't mean we like it.
Originally by: Cautet
Though I did wonder about the comments on low sp pilots. They can learn to fly the hyena against nano ships (if they really want to learn rather than moan their drake can't hack it) but to fly against a carrier they would need a capital of their own, wouldn't they? Or else a blob.
An ibis with a t1 warp disrupter can point a carrier. An ibis can shoot at a titan. Not optimal however they can be somewhat useful minutes after char creation. Yes. Cap ships are a problem. They create blobs etc. But thats another thread.
The issue is that a player with very little experience can't do much against nanos. The weapons are ineffective. They can't web them. They can't point them effectively as they can't go fast enough to keep the point. So we get the issue where someone needs quite a bit of training to be useful.
Yes, the hyena is an option. But not for new players. New players won't have the isk for a t2 ship with t2 fittings. They won't have the training. Yes they can train for it, but that takes time. It effectively says that t1 mods aren't useful.
The other issue is the isk. Hyenas pop fast. New players can't afford this. More so when they don't get insurance on t1 ships. Now if each race had a t1 ship with a 20% web range per level bonus I'd feel different. I could take someone that just started and have them in a fight in hours. Currently the only option for a low sp player is defense. Damps, jams, etc.
For someone with a bit of sp the only answer is ceptor or hyena. Some don't like to cross train. For many its an isk issue.
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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2008.05.02 15:06:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Zhecao Vai
You know, a speed mod Vigil with newbie skills goes better than 4km/s.
It isn't a bad idea. From a new player perspective tackling like this is very demanding.
Frigs like this pop very very quickly. They must close with little traversal and get well within optimal. Often they pop before the nano has lost inertia from the single web. I've tried something like this except with ceptors. The ceptors need a few logistic ships just to stay alive long enough to be useful. That extra 10km of web on a Hyena makes a significant difference.
And at 4km/s the frig wouldn't be going fast enough to effectively close on many nanos. It might be able to match speed. It can't touch any of the pimped out nanos.
Originally by: Lois Bishop
you fight it with remote rep battleships...
Um, sure. The nanos will tool around, then warp off. Things can get very hot for the battleships. Best case the battleships pop a nano or two. Otherwise the rr bs gang must commit and can potentially lose everything.
Originally by: Matrixcvd
which is why there are 35k on server during euro peak times?
I never said that overall numbers are dropping. Merely besides other factors like lag etc that nanos were forcing folks to train/play in a direction they didn't want to go.
I'm merely relating a common thread that I've heard of people leaving. Fast twitched based games appeal to a younger crowd and exclude an older, more mature crowd.
It creates a gap of those with nanos and those without.
Originally by: Matrixcvd
unless your credit card bought char and mom got popped with 2000usd in isk lost,
What are you talking about?
Originally by: Matrixcvd
it took me 6 months to really learn how to PVP that was after about 2 months of learning just basics, i log in, and I STILL LEARN.... THAT IS THE WHOLE DAMN POINT.... YOU MUST LEARN TO PLAY THE GAME,
There is a difference between game experience and sp and isk. Game experience wouldn't help much with going after nano phoons unless you also had the isk and the sp.
The effective ways to go after nanos are out of reach for many.
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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2008.05.02 16:56:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
You are quite possibly the biggest whiner on these forums
Just bored at work.
Originally by: Liang Nuren
At any rate, Energy Emissions 4 is really hard to train, I know. And 2-4 million ISK? Freaking hard to get.
Which implies flying a battleship. Defensive. And all the problems associated with it.
If most ships besides the curse & pilgrim could mount a neut with a 20km+ range I'd agree that you have a point.
Otherwise we're back to flying a skill intensive nano, or recon.
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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2008.05.03 12:00:00 -
[18]
Originally by: NightmareX
But when it say it's the fastest Cruiser, then what is the problem with that then?, it's doing it's job perfectly, to be fast.
Difference between the fastest cruiser, and silly fast.
If the phoon had "fastest battleship" in the description should it be able to go 10-15km/sec?
If a ship or tactic is unbalanced, then of course its doing its job. But that doesn't mean that everything is working properly.
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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2008.05.03 12:45:00 -
[19]
Originally by: NightmareX
that would be impossible to catch.
Unlikely to catch.
Speed is broken in that after a certain point it doesn't really matter. Once ceptors start going over 15km what difference does it make? As long as you're the fastest tackler in system what does it matter?
In fact, if you look at other threads nearly everyone that thinks nano is broken wants to boost frigs/tacklers/ceptors/assault frigs. Nanos in general make a better tackler than ceptors.
That crow was probably popped because he went to zero traversal to someone and was insta popped. Speed for frigs is balanced because they've no tank. Most nanos carry a respectable buffer tank.
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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2008.05.03 13:30:00 -
[20]
Originally by: NightmareX
So my 1.8k shield Claw that goes for 9.6k m/s is fine then?
Yep. That ceptor has had to make some hard choices. Speed, tank, utility (tackle/web/weapons).
A nano on the other hand has a decent tank, great utility, and enough speed. To counter a nano effectively needs another nano. Ceptors can catch them, however multiple ceptors are needed as they lack tank and utility.
If it takes multiple ceptors to catch a nano effectively then the pilots are better served by flying nanos themselves. |
Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2008.05.03 14:15:00 -
[21]
Originally by: NightmareX
I don't fit my Vagabond in another way than i fitted my Claw, i fitted guns, MWD, Shield Extender's, Overdrives and Nanofibers. So just because the ship is bigger and have a lot more shield than the Claw doesn't make it as a tanker.
So you agree that it has a lot more shields? That a buffer tank & speed tank is one of the best combinations in game, if not the best. Compared to anything that can catch it, a nano has a nice buffer tank.
Originally by: NightmareX
Wooooow, EFT says my Vagabond can tank 50 DPS, woooooohooooo, that's one hell of an AMAZING tank there, that's to much omgomg, nerf nerf nerf nerf!11111.
Yes, 50dps. On top of about 8.5k shields with decent native resists and 2x lse. Lets play eft warrior. Vaga has about a 25k buffer tank (2x lse t2) with shield/armor/struct versus about 2k on the average Claw.
Claw is cheapier but goes faster. Vaga has 10x the buffer tank, much better dps and range, goes fast enough. Anything that can go after a nano is either nano'd itself, or pops fast like a ceptor and would be better off flying a nano.
So we're back flying nanos (offensive). Anything else has to hope the nano gets close and they've got an anti-nano setup (defensive).
Originally by: NightmareX
And you keep saying the same over, you need another nano to take a nano. FOR THE 8943753987 TIMES, NO YOU DON'T NEED THAT, ONLY TERRIBLY TERRIBLY CRAPPY EXPERIENCED NOOBS NEED THAT, LIKE YOU .
Stop beeing stupid and learn to play the game FFS.
Back with the personal insults? How cute.
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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2008.05.03 15:05:00 -
[22]
Originally by: NightmareX
Yeah more and more peoples are getting into nano ships of a simple reason, the blobbing in 0.0 space is driving sooooo many player nuts, so many are then getting into nano fitted ship so they can evade the stupid blobs. It's not hard to understand that.
Players fly nanos because they can do so with little risk (or managable risk). If the nanos are effective against blobs then blobs will train to fly nanos. Then we get into the current situation with large nano gangs. Nanos are the new blobs.
If you wanted to deal with blobs then try something else like shorten the range on disrupters and bubbles. If folks can warp out easier then mwd won't be as needed and smaller gangs are viable. I'm not saying that this is the answer. Only that saying nanos aren't the answer.
Originally by: NightmareX
You just have to live with it, Adapt or die / GTFO .
I 100% agree. *Everyone* needs to train and fly nanos.
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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
SMASH Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.05.03 15:44:00 -
[23]
Edited by: *****zilla on 03/05/2008 15:44:08
Originally by: NightmareX
Again, you still fail to understand. PEOPLES FLY NANOS TO EVADE BLOBS, AND THEREFOR YOU TAKE IT AS LESSER RISK. Dude, that's the point by evading blobs, have lesser risk.
People fly nanos to avoid non nano blobs.
And what happens when a small nano gang meets a nano blob? The small nano gang must bring more. And soon we're in the current situation with large nano blobs. The big risks for nanos are more nanos and minm recons, specific Rapiers. So we see a movement towards lots of Rapiers and nanos that can maintain damage while at speed (ie Ishtars).
If nanos become the new blob then nanos aren't the answer to the blob.
Originally by: NightmareX
And when you meet a blob in 0.0 space, it's normally sniper battleships, close range battleships, RR Battleships etc.
And becoming more often nano blobs.
Originally by: NightmareX
So they don't exactly know that we are coming in HAC's.
Oh, they know. They might choose to fight but it doesn't take much to know whats coming.
Originally by: NightmareX
And like it is now with the HAC's, it allows smaller corps to be able to fight in areas where there are many blobs, and that's pretty nice i can tell you. Nothing is better than letting small corps have a chance to fight in 0.0 space. Instead of setting up a 20 man BS gang, and the first 0.0 system you jump into you get insta pwned to hell and back.
This is what recons (not nano'd), cov ops, black ops, and stealth bombers are for. Tactics can be used to get in and get kills. But we don't need any of that because we can nano up, fly through the jaws of death, kill at will, and leave when bored.
Real small corps use non nanos for dps, scouts, and some basic tacklers. And tactics. Taking 50-60 nanos through 0.0 is not a small corp activity.
Originally by: NightmareX
So by nerfing speed also nerf roaming gangs, and the ability for small corps to fight in 0.0 space badly, so it's a bad idea to do that now with the 0.0 space fleet / blob mechanics that are now.
By nerfing speed we force tactics to be used. Scouts. Small corps must attack where the main force is not. Harrassment. Skirmish tactics.
Originally by: NightmareX
Blobs need to be fixed first of all before we think about touching the nanos.
We won't need to worry about the blobs because many will be nano'd up. I agree its a problem. But nanos aren't the solution. Nanos make the blob worse.
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