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Moncada
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Posted - 2004.05.03 08:17:00 -
[121]
It would be nice if we could gather a little crew that actually tests the diffrent setups. leave the math behind and see what happens on the battlefield instead.
I would propose that a group of 8 people gather on chaos or entrophy server to test out the diffrent configs. 2 for every race.
I would invite the devs to watch the diffrent results.
Just a suggestion. Flame away!
Monşada
Cardinal Maledictus Sanguine
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qrac
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Posted - 2004.05.03 10:19:00 -
[122]
 Originally by: Moncada
It would be nice if we could gather a little crew that actually tests the diffrent setups. leave the math behind and see what happens on the battlefield instead.
I would propose that a group of 8 people gather on chaos or entrophy server to test out the diffrent configs. 2 for every race.
I would invite the devs to watch the diffrent results.
Just a suggestion. Flame away!
i suggest the same but make the devs give everybody equal skills. it'd be VERY interesting to see the results.
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Insanes numquam moriuntur! |
Gariuys
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Posted - 2004.05.03 10:40:00 -
[123]
Originally by: Moncada
It would be nice if we could gather a little crew that actually tests the diffrent setups. leave the math behind and see what happens on the battlefield instead.
I would propose that a group of 8 people gather on chaos or entrophy server to test out the diffrent configs. 2 for every race.
I would invite the devs to watch the diffrent results.
Just a suggestion. Flame away!
There are balance testers and they actually know what they're talking about.
ROFLMAO 8 people, 2 setups. What game are you playing there's 1000s of different setups and situations, skill lvls and actually player skill. If **** was as simple as you make it out to be it wouldn't take as much testing and as long to balance things out now would it?
~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~
A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX
The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
Xavier Cardde
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Posted - 2004.05.03 11:14:00 -
[124]
Amarr ships dont need a Nerf...
Already the Arma and Apoc are rarely used PVP ships.... and amarr cruisers are known as crap as are their frigates..
Worst idea of the day award.
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Gariuys
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Posted - 2004.05.03 11:25:00 -
[125]
Originally by: Xavier Cardde
Amarr ships dont need a Nerf...
Already the Arma and Apoc are rarely used PVP ships.... and amarr cruisers are known as crap as are their frigates..
Worst idea of the day award.
Did you read a single post in this thread? NVM I already know the answer.
~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~
A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX
The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
Arthur Eld
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Posted - 2004.05.03 12:51:00 -
[126]
Originally by: Cindy Goodwill
you can also add to the Tach's con: Can only do the 2 types of dmg that only hurts shields and are mostly tanked
While 425mm's do also only 2 types of dmg, they do the dmg that is good against shield (thermal) and good against armor (kinetic)
i cant possibly think of a way for a laser to do Kinetic dmg (roleplay wise) but something like superheating lenses that causes the molecules of the ships hull to explode and therefor produce Explosive dmg
Actually EM damage is the most desireable damage to do against hardened shields and armour as in most tanking setups (i.e. ones that only use one of each or the 3 least resistant damage type), EM resistance is lowest. Sheild resistance to EM damage in a typical tank set up is 50% and armour is 60% and these are the lowest resists. The damage types aren't really the problem.
____________________
First comes smiles, then lies. Last is gunfire. We deal in lead.
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Hellek
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Posted - 2004.05.03 15:04:00 -
[127]
hmm, CCP having a crew testing different setups to ensure ships are balanced? I guess its a team consisting of Caldari, Minmatar and maybe Gallente. Definately no Amarr though, cause if they had ever tried using lasers, things as the current situation would not happen.
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Lipton
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Posted - 2004.05.03 15:33:00 -
[128]
lol, Hellek.... Damn straight...
was on chaos earlier and fooled around with a bud...
(I wont even type what i was gonna say here cos it's been said tooooo many times allready)
Tachyon aint the only Laser that needs some lovin...
Oooops... there i go again...
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What? |
Hellek
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Posted - 2004.05.05 18:37:00 -
[129]
I just want to present some facts:
Megabeam and 425 rail have same damage and rof BUT: 425 uses less than half the cap AND i.e. the shortest range Hybrid Ammo (antimatter -50%) does 20 and 28 damage (thermal / kinetic) while the shortest range crystal (Multifreq -50%) does only 20 and 24 damage (thermal / em) which is a big difference. Just compare 48 to 44, that's 10% difference!!! Besides that I think that kinetic is more useful damage than EM.
Now with the auto-reload feature and the huge amount of ammo which the guns can carry nobody can tell me that this would be balanced.
To make it even more unbalanced, i.e. the Megathron has a 20% damage bonus to hybrids while Apoc has no damage bonus. Furthermore the 425 rails have more range than megabeams.
Now to the lowrange stuff:
An 800mm artillery has a DOT (damage divided by ROF) of 0.31. Add 20% damage/rof from minmatar BS lvl4 when mounted on a tempest to that.
Now the Dual Heavy Pulse Laser which is the amarr counterpart: 0.29 DOT, and missing a HUGE damage/rof bonus which the 800mm have. And of course the Laser has cap usage. Besides that the projectile ammo deals 3 types of damage.
Now comparing it to a blaster:
Electron (=Dual Heavy Ion) Blaster: 0.39 DOT, again + 20% damage from megathron bonus.
Sure the blaster has a shorter range but 2 or 10km does not make much difference. I rather prefer 2km and doing twice the damage.
Again in this case the antimatter ammo does more damage than a MF crystal.
So WHO can say that this would be balanced?
Drawbacks Lasers have:
- Need a lot of Grid
- Need about same CPU as projectile guns
- No damage or ROF bonus for them on Apoc
- Do less damage than the other guns, without taking into account the lack of bonuses (with them the difference is even a lot bigger)
- Eat a lot of cap
Advantages:
Need no ammo
The only advantage it has is not worth much (if anything) as the other guns can hold a lot of damage, now even auto-reload, and therefore hardly loose anything. An electron blaster can hold 200 shots of ammo, a tempest looses ~10 seconds for reloading every 5 minutes. Ammo is cheap and the small difference that exists is not important due to the high prices crystals have. Look how much ammo you can produce for 8mill (which is what a set of MF crystals costs).
I hope that after reading this, those who did not understand why Lasers suck now do.
PS: For those interested why Tachs suck:
Megabeam, as said, has 0.31 DOT
Tach has 0.34, that's about 10% more.
Now look at the difference in what the Tach needs:
Grid: 4250 instead of 3250 (~25% more)
CPU: 60 instead of 55 (~10% more)
Cap/second: 10 instead of 7.78 (~25% more)
So instead of using 4 Tachs (which needs 17k grid) you can use 6 megabeams which means a lot more damage. Or, as I said before, you can use 6 425mm rails which do even more damage (but still 20% less than on a megathron)
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Hellek
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Posted - 2004.05.06 07:14:00 -
[130]
Oops, I forgot to post the range differences as well:
Besides all the drawbacks I just listed, Lasers also have the worst range:
Tach/Megabeam: 40km optimal, 16km falloff
1400mm: 40km optimal, 60km falloff (4x bigger falloff)
425 rail: 48km optimal, 24km falloff (20% higher optimal range, 50% better falloff)
I really hope CCP reacts and changes that.
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qrac
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Posted - 2004.05.06 07:36:00 -
[131]
/me pokes TomB
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Insanes numquam moriuntur! |
Moncada
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Posted - 2004.05.10 18:49:00 -
[132]
*bump*
This needs to be seen.
Monşada
Cardinal Maledictus Sanguine
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qrac
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Posted - 2004.05.10 22:11:00 -
[133]
Originally by: Moncada
*bump*
This needs to be seen.
i think tomb has already seen it.. it'd be nice to have a response from him though.
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Insanes numquam moriuntur! |
Nimrodel
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Posted - 2004.05.11 00:05:00 -
[134]
Edited by: Nimrodel on 11/05/2004 00:10:12
I do agree in some ways. However
EMP isnt resisted on sheilds and Kinetic is so the mega beam should do more, Armor is the issue
You arnt taking into accout Reload on Hybrids every so many shots there must be a 10 second delay, more if you include player error
Radio crystal on a mega beam with apoc/arm's 5% less cap allow it to use less cap than a 425mm rail gun
also the Laser does use NO AMMO!
Perhaps a 5% damage bonus instead of the 5% less cap usage?
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Nimrodel
Dark Force User
Joint Espionage & Defence Industries
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Your Medium YF-12a Smartbomb hits Rusty Cloud, doing 0.0 damage. |
qrac
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Posted - 2004.05.11 07:39:00 -
[135]
Quote:
EMP isnt resisted on sheilds and Kinetic is so the mega beam should do more, Armor is the issue
have u read my calculations?
Quote:
You arnt taking into accout Reload on Hybrids every so many shots there must be a 10 second delay, more if you include player error
let's say the rail fires every 5 seconds. that's 200 seconds of non-stop firing. reloading is therefore a non-issue.
Quote:
Radio crystal on a mega beam with apoc/arm's 5% less cap allow it to use less cap than a 425mm rail gun
u have to be kidding me? have u read my calculations?
Quote:
Perhaps a 5% damage bonus instead of the 5% less cap usage?
or just tweak the guns instead of the ship bonus 
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Insanes numquam moriuntur! |
Black Lotus
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Posted - 2004.05.11 08:02:00 -
[136]
Edited by: Black Lotus on 11/05/2004 08:06:01
Edited by: Black Lotus on 11/05/2004 08:04:06
How the tach was nerfed, from what i noticed anyways. They reduced falloff a great deal, and reduced tracking by half. no other changes were made. It was the tracking and falloff that made the gun do excellent dmg, all the time. It would never miss b4, and never do dmg under 400. But yes that was too powerful.
However they did this with all lasers (nerfed falloff\tracking) problem is they nerfed it a bit to much. After the patch they fixed tach's in, heavy modulated sucked after to, cause they got nerf as well(tracking\falloff). So it really goes to show waht a difference tracking and falloff have on a gun.
Currently i have all laser related skills at lvl 5(controlled bursts, energy managemnt, energy system ops, amarr bs, large enrgy turret.) with all those skills it is a pretty damn good gun, using 4 of them +hardners+shield booster, i can run it all non-stop without draining below 60% cap(preoperly setup for cap recharge tho). But, i belive if i had same skills for hybrids or projectiles i would be better off. Tho like i say with all those skills, tachs are still a good weapon.
To compete with other players who have my skills, but in other gun types, i think they need to boost accuracy falloff 20% on all lasers, and tracking by 50%. All the cap used , should equal good tracking imo.
If my post is messed up, or rambling, dont mind me. Tired as hell. :)
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illuminati
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Posted - 2004.05.11 13:32:00 -
[137]
Quote:
then i have a challenge for u: devise a tachyon setup or for that matter any laser setup that will beat a megathron 1vs1.
Tach-Apocs cant kill any tier 2 BS, whether it be Megas, Ravens or Tempests.
Lasers are for PvE atm thanks to the capuseage.
I like the idea of bringing Amarr BS down slightly in cap/grid and un-nerfing cap-use.
WTS 100 mil Amarr minership...
PS. The solution to the problem is NOT to nerf everything else 
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