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White Ronin	Posted - 2008.05.01 06:20:00 - [1] If you dont approve of BACON and the logserver was never supposed to be or intended to be used like this and you are taking steps to right this wrong... why now? You even admit you have known that other large groups of players (aka - corps or alliences or aka large income base you support like say.... BOB) have been using this for a while. What is the issue now. Why didnt you act when you found out the others were using it? Why is it wrong now and then it wasnt? What other 3rd party programs are the other large subscription generating groups using that you dont feel the general population should actually have access to? Is that what they mean on the forums when they say "join a corp" they really mean to say "join a corp if you want to 'break the spirit of pvp in order to win'" as I have heard many a voice write on the forums. Just curious. Thanks for the honest and non scripted not-written-to-be-politically-correct-and-save-face-so-we-dont-look-like-we-cater-to big-subscription-blocks-and-allow-them-to-do-what-we-wont-allow-everyone-else-to-do reply.
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.05.01 06:35:00 - [2] It's pretty easy. Microsoft does this, every company does this. If a small problem or security vulnerability exists and maybe a handful of people know about it, it is not high on the priority list to being fixed. If this changes and a large number of people know about the vulnerability, then it gets stomped on. This is how every business has ever worked under the capitalist model. Trying to degrade CCP that they are somehow wrong and the bad guys fail because they do what everyone else does. Get some experience in the world and you will learn this.
Spaztick	Posted - 2008.05.01 06:36:00 - [3] This letter is going to be a book of revelations to many readers. In particular, many will be surprised to learn that I am really horrified by the OP's devotion to the idea of a benevolent dictatorship of a self-appointed elite. Let's get down to brass tacks: It has been said that the documentation of this matter is abundant and conclusive. I believe that to be true. I also believe that his bootlickers operate secretly so as not to excite suspicion. An obvious parallel from a slightly different context is that as commonly encountered, lackadaisical psychopaths lack any of the qualities that mark the civilized person, like courage, dignity, incorruptibility, ease, and confidence. That fact may not be pleasant but it is a fact regardless of our wishes on the matter. I certainly doubt we could beat this into the OP's head, but all of the OP's reinterpretations of historic events are local and personal and consequently gross and selfish. He will almost certainly tiptoe around that glaringly evident fact because if he didn't, you might come to realize that anyone -- you or I or a Martian just arrived in a flying saucer -- who wants to report as best as possible the facts and circumstances surrounding his abysmal campaigns should realize that I like to face facts. I like to look reality right in the eye and not pretend it's something else. And the reality of our present situation is this: If you're like most people you just shrug your shoulders whenever you hear about his latest power-drunk diatribes. When your shoulders get tired of shrugging I hope you'll realize that the OP says that he is the arbiter of all things. Yet he also wants to preach hatred. Am I the only one who sees the irony there? I ask because his deflection and falsification of our highest culture tendencies will make bigotry respectable. I'll say that again because I want it to sink in: His purpose is not to enlighten, but to deceive. I had a conversation recently with some xenophobic tossers who were trying to destroy our culture, our institutions, and our way of life. That conversation convinced me that the OP has remarked that sin is good for the soul. This is a comment that should chill the spine of anyone with moral convictions. To make sure you understand I'll spell it out for you. For starters, I wouldn't judge the OP's devotees too harshly. They're indisputably just cannon fodder for the OP's plot to prostrate the honor, power, independence, laws, and property of entire countries. The OP has been known to "prove" statistically that five-crystal orgone generators can eliminate mind-control energies that are being radiated from secret, underground, government facilities. As you might have suspected, his proof is flawed. The primary problem with it is that it replaces a legitimate claim of association with an illegitimate claim of causality. Consequently, the OP's "proof" demonstrates only that one of his advocates keeps throwing "scientific" studies at me, claiming they prove that the moon is made of green cheese. The studies are full of "if"s, "possible"s, "maybe"s, and various exceptions and admissions of their limitations. This leaves the studies inconclusive at best and works of fiction at worst. The only thing these studies can possibly prove is that I am tired of hearing or reading that one can understand the elements of a scientific theory only by reference to the social condition and personal histories of the scientists involved. You know that that is simply not true. If the OP had even a shred of intellectual integrity, he'd admit that the reason he wants to use organized violence to suppress opposition is that he's completely rapacious. If you believe you have another explanation for his jejune behavior, then please write and tell me about it. Clearly, my love for people necessitates that I lead us all toward a better, brighter future. As a parting thought, remember that within the milieu of imperialism exists the opportunity for cameralism.
Nahh	Posted - 2008.05.01 07:00:00 - [4] Nice Spam Spaztick. Bacon in my mind is response to what other alliances had going. CCP will either fix the issue or will change local but continue to let the log server be exploited. My only question is does the log server tell which planet/asteroid belt a neutral/red is in?
Falcon Troy Caldari Awesome People Secret Corp	Posted - 2008.05.01 07:12:00 - [5] Two things: 1. The app was never brought to the widespread attention of the EVE community until now. 2. CCP knows they can't actually stop people from running the third-party program. They had two options as well: 1. Hope the progs stayed quiet so that the greater EVE community was unaffected. 2. If it broke out to the public they can blacklist (frown on) the programs until they devised a way to stop the exploitation of it. _____________ Hai.
Ki An Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum	Posted - 2008.05.01 07:16:00 - [6] I won't deny the possibility of alliances using BACON-like software before, but I haven't seen any proof of it except for a GM post insinuating that 'other' programs might exist. The way I see it, all this moral outburst of "why can't we use this when those guys do" is just a big deflector of the issue: BACON is crap. It is black-listed. Anyone using it does so in contradiction of CCP's wishes, and if CCP could ban you for using it, they would. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Nahh	Posted - 2008.05.01 07:17:00 - [7] Originally by: Ki An I won't deny the possibility of alliances using BACON-like software before, but I haven't seen any proof of it except for a GM post insinuating that 'other' programs might exist. The way I see it, all this moral outburst of "why can't we use this when those guys do" is just a big deflector of the issue: BACON is crap. It is black-listed. Anyone using it does so in contradiction of CCP's wishes, and if CCP could ban you for using it, they would. How is it blacklisted?
Ki An Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum	Posted - 2008.05.01 07:19:00 - [8] Originally by: Nahh How is it blacklisted? As per GM Grimmi's post saying that CCP frowns upon it's use/development. This effectively blacklists the program. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Boz Well	Posted - 2008.05.01 07:20:00 - [9] Zomg no! We'll placed on some guy named Ki An's blacklist! Whatever the hell that means. There's no black list, it isn't banned, it just reads log files. Quit making trash up and posting it in the forums.
Nahh	Posted - 2008.05.01 07:22:00 - [10] Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Nahh How is it blacklisted? As per GM Grimmi's post saying that CCP frowns upon it's use/development. This effectively blacklists the program. frowns is not "blacklist". Do not use this program, "because if you do we will ban you"; is blacklist..!!!!!>>>>!!!!!
Ridley Tree The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2008.05.01 07:22:00 - [11] Originally by: White Ronin You even admit you have known that other large groups of players (aka - corps or alliences or aka large income base you support like say.... BOB) have been using this for a while. Large is a matter of perspective. Prior to 'Bacon' this particular kind of tool was not in large use. It was not being used whole-sale by corps or alliances. CCP can't even 'know' because there is no way to track how many people are using it. Other people probably have done it. Was there more than a thousand people using something like Bacon prior to Bacon? No. There was a not magic 'download these tools' mail that you got when you joined a big 0.0 corp. Quote: What is the issue now. Now everybody and their dog is using it. When there were a small amount of people it didn't matter and it wasn't worth hindering the log-server thusly making it harder to find/fix bugs. Now there are bunch of people, and it is worth hindering the log-server. Simple really. _______
Ki An Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum	Posted - 2008.05.01 07:24:00 - [12] Originally by: Boz Well Zomg no! We'll placed on some guy named Ki An's blacklist! Whatever the hell that means. There's no black list, it isn't banned, it just reads log files. Quit making trash up and posting it in the forums. You're pretty stupid. CCP frowns upon it. That's as strong a statement as they can make, as the undetectability of the program makes it impossible to ban. In Eve history, when something is "frowned upon" by CCP, it basically means "We would ban you if we could catch you", which I translate to "blacklisted". But of course, you don't care what CCP says, do you? You're just a filthy little cheater who thinks it's his right to be l33t in a computar game, and would take any means to reach that goal. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Ki An Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum	Posted - 2008.05.01 07:25:00 - [13] Originally by: Nahh frowns is not "blacklist". Do not use this program, "because if you do we will ban you"; is blacklist..!!!!!>>>>!!!!! See my post above for why you're wrong. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Nahh	Posted - 2008.05.01 07:27:00 - [14] Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Nahh frowns is not "blacklist". Do not use this program, "because if you do we will ban you"; is blacklist..!!!!!>>>>!!!!! See my post above for why you're wrong. Wine more it might make your argument hold more water.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.05.01 07:39:00 - [15] Edited by: Venkul Mul on 01/05/2008 07:44:34 Originally by: White Ronin If you dont approve of BACON and the logserver was never supposed to be or intended to be used like this and you are taking steps to right this wrong... why now? You even admit you have known that other large groups of players (aka - corps or alliences or aka large income base you support like say.... BOB) have been using this for a while. What is the issue now. Why didnt you act when you found out the others were using it? Why is it wrong now and then it wasnt? What other 3rd party programs are the other large subscription generating groups using that you dont feel the general population should actually have access to? Is that what they mean on the forums when they say "join a corp" they really mean to say "join a corp if you want to 'break the spirit of pvp in order to win'" as I have heard many a voice write on the forums. Just curious. Thanks for the honest and non scripted not-written-to-be-politically-correct-and-save-face-so-we-dont-look-like-we-cater-to big-subscription-blocks-and-allow-them-to-do-what-we-wont-allow-everyone-else-to-do reply. As this kind of program is on the player PC and don't interact directly with the client CCP, even if they frown on it, can't do anything (barring changing the logserver, but that tool has other uses they feel are needed). Doing a law against a behavior you can't really control is generally negative as it will weaken the other laws without adding nothing. On the "BOB" example, the people advertising a similar tool in the alliance forum are Goonswarm, like they were the people that had the positive/negative standing hack that forced CCP to add that to the program for the general public.
Anti Excedrin	Posted - 2008.05.01 07:39:00 - [16] Originally by: Nahh Wine more it might make your argument hold more water. CCP: We don't like it and we're going to change the log-server so it will stop working Nahh: See, they're not black-listing it!
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.05.01 07:41:00 - [17] CCP doesn't hav ethe habit of talking about exploits before they have a fix to stop it. For all we know, maybe the fix was worked on or in the pipeline of things to fix before Bacon became known. ------------------------------------------
Boz Well	Posted - 2008.05.01 07:42:00 - [18] Edited by: Boz Well on 01/05/2008 07:43:53 Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Boz Well Zomg no! We'll placed on some guy named Ki An's blacklist! Whatever the hell that means. There's no black list, it isn't banned, it just reads log files. Quit making trash up and posting it in the forums. You're pretty stupid. CCP frowns upon it. That's as strong a statement as they can make, as the undetectability of the program makes it impossible to ban. In Eve history, when something is "frowned upon" by CCP, it basically means "We would ban you if we could catch you", which I translate to "blacklisted". But of course, you don't care what CCP says, do you? You're just a filthy little cheater who thinks it's his right to be l33t in a computar game, and would take any means to reach that goal. Lol. Yeah a filthy little cheater... Or just a guy that finds self-righteous forum monkeys like yourself funny. What you "translate" and what is actually the situation are different things. Blacklist = ban. Frown upon != ban. In the greater scheme of things, do I really care what they say? I guess not. I do care what the rules are though. And this isn't against the rules. But please. Keep crying and throwing your pathetic little insults around, lol. I'm sure you'll convince a lot of people that way. Or just make us laugh. Either way works.
Ki An Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum	Posted - 2008.05.01 07:55:00 - [19] Originally by: Boz Well Lol. Yeah a filthy little cheater... Or just a guy that finds self-righteous forum monkeys like yourself funny. What you "translate" and what is actually the situation are different things. Blacklist = ban. Frown upon != ban. Read my post pls. Frown upon = as close to ban as they can go. Originally by: Boz Well In the greater scheme of things, do I really care what they say? I guess not. I do care what the rules are though. And this isn't against the rules. It would be if CCP could enforce it. Originally by: Boz Well But please. Keep crying and throwing your pathetic little insults around, lol. I'm sure you'll convince a lot of people that way. Or just make us laugh. Either way works. I'll be laughing quite a lot, actually, when CCP fixes the problem. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Insurgency	Posted - 2008.05.01 08:04:00 - [20] Originally by: Ki An I'll be laughing quite a lot, actually, when CCP fixes the problem. I anticipate the wounded, tearful, rage-quit threads. Most likely from the same class of player who are unable to comprehend why they should be punished for breaking the rules about buying ISK. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Boz Well	Posted - 2008.05.01 08:06:00 - [21] Let them fix it then. And to say that frowning upon it is as strong as they can go is ridiculous. Because as you alude to, they can FIX it, and that's a lot stronger. They could have fixed this a long time ago even, since this program has been out in one form or another in the past. If they fix the logs so that this program doesn't work, fine. That'll be a good thing as far as I'm concerned. But until they fix it or deem it a bannable offense, quit your sad little smack talking and if you want to cry about it, go sob in a corner.
Marcus TheMartin Gallente Tuxedo.	Posted - 2008.05.01 08:06:00 - [22] First post is a BOB hax post I have never seen a train reach escape velocity while still in the station but I guess the forums make fools of us all
Poppy Star Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.05.01 09:55:00 - [23] Edited by: Poppy Star on 01/05/2008 09:55:36 Originally by: Nahh Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Nahh How is it blacklisted? As per GM Grimmi's post saying that CCP frowns upon it's use/development. This effectively blacklists the program. frowns is not "blacklist". Do not use this program, "because if you do we will ban you"; is blacklist..!!!!!>>>>!!!!! definition of blacklist according to merriam websters dictionary: Main Entry: black+list Function: noun Date: circa 1619 : a list of persons who are disapproved of or are to be punished or boycotted I've highlighted the important part. This could, and is, also applied to various other things including programs. Definition of ban according to merriam websters dictionary: 2: to prohibit especially by legal means <ban discrimination>; also : to prohibit the use, performance, or distribution of <ban a book> <ban a pesticide> Seeing as how CCP cannot detect if this program is being used, they cannot actually ban it nor prohibit its dissemination in anyway, they can however "Blacklist" or frown upon it until such time as they can implement a solution. Originally by: Jenny Spitfire I want mein missel spaming battelsheep.
xttz GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.01 10:56:00 - [24] I like my bacon to be crispy. CCP how do you like your bacon? The players demand an answer!
Shananigan Induseng Enterprises R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.05.01 12:17:00 - [25] Edited by: Shananigan on 01/05/2008 12:18:45 Originally by: Vaal Erit It's pretty easy. Microsoft does this, every company does this. If a small problem or security vulnerability exists and maybe a handful of people know about it, it is not high on the priority list to being fixed. If this changes and a large number of people know about the vulnerability, then it gets stomped on. This is how every business has ever worked under the capitalist model. Trying to degrade CCP that they are somehow wrong and the bad guys fail because they do what everyone else does. Get some experience in the world and you will learn this. I do know that most companys do this because I have worked for a few of the larger ones and have seen it in action. I don't agree with everything else you said but whatever thats your opinion. Here is the problem with RL corperations and doing this: The consumers are seen more and more as numbers as the corperation get larger, thus a minor advantage or glitch that a small percentage of customers becomes aware of is ignored. Here is the flaw... customers are people and people talk, and eventually that small glitch will be used by everyone and it has to be taken care of anyways thanks to word of mouth. By then the corperation starts losing some consumers due to this and of course by this time it has gotten so out of hand that everyone is complaining about it like now. ah god bless capitalists where the world is mearly a chart and we are all numbers and percentages.
Bird Free	Posted - 2008.05.01 19:33:00 - [26] Maybe they never approved of any such software. Maybe they have always frowned upon its usage. Maybe the community's actions during the last couple of weeks (i.e. the increased discussions about it) have brought the opinion into the daylight. But then again I'm just a stoopid alt. Maybe it has something to do with this.
Barba Negra	Posted - 2008.05.01 20:01:00 - [27] I only see the security issue here, if all say ban this kind of application than you should ban also voice programs (TS, ventrilo, even eve voice) and all comunication out of game like IM, cause it's giving up advantage to a group of players against other group or a solo player that don't use or can't use them. With this kind of tool a solo player can have a bit more help against the odds of being alone...
Bish Ounen Gallente Omni-Core Freedom Fighters Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2008.05.01 20:02:00 - [28] Originally by: xttz I like my bacon to be crispy. CCP how do you like your bacon? The players demand an answer! I like my BACON integrated into EvE. But until then I'll accept it as an add-on side dish. :) In all Honesty, Ki An has gone off the deep end. There are plenty of instances of programs that CCP cannot detect or stop that CCP has categorically said "If we catch you using this we will ban you and delete your account." For example, Macro mining programs. If they catch you using one, you WILL be banned. Again, Ki An is willfully ignoring all the communication between CCP and Gunfleet that occured BEFORE the BACON announcement, and the posts where BACON is cautiously ALLOWED. He is focusing on one word in one sentence, and impregnating it with meaning that he wishes it to have, but is nevertheless not there. This is what is commonly known as "Taking out of context". He is focusing down on one tiny aspect of the overall CCP-Gunfleet conversation to the exclusion of everything else. At the very least, it makes him a dishonest critic and debater, and one who's opinion you should not trust. As far as whether CCP will ban BACON or not, we shall see. If they chose to make an official "BACON is not allowed, please do not use it." statement, then gunfleet will pull BACON, and I will stop using it. If they decide to simply allow it to continue until the encrypt the logserver and kill BACON in a functional way, then that's fine too. Once BACON stops working, then I will stop using it. HOWEVER, Until such time as one of those two conditions is met, BACON is TACITLY allowed, and I will continue using it. You should too.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Insurgency	Posted - 2008.05.01 20:17:00 - [29] Originally by: Bish Ounen Originally by: xttz I like my bacon to be crispy. CCP how do you like your bacon? The players demand an answer! I like my BACON integrated into EvE. But until then I'll accept it as an add-on side dish. :) In all Honesty, Ki An has gone off the deep end. There are plenty of instances of programs that CCP cannot detect or stop that CCP has categorically said "If we catch you using this we will ban you and delete your account." For example, Macro mining programs. If they catch you using one, you WILL be banned. Again, Ki An is willfully ignoring all the communication between CCP and Gunfleet that occured BEFORE the BACON announcement, and the posts where BACON is cautiously ALLOWED. He is focusing on one word in one sentence, and impregnating it with meaning that he wishes it to have, but is nevertheless not there. This is what is commonly known as "Taking out of context". He is focusing down on one tiny aspect of the overall CCP-Gunfleet conversation to the exclusion of everything else. At the very least, it makes him a dishonest critic and debater, and one who's opinion you should not trust. As far as whether CCP will ban BACON or not, we shall see. If they chose to make an official "BACON is not allowed, please do not use it." statement, then gunfleet will pull BACON, and I will stop using it. If they decide to simply allow it to continue until the encrypt the logserver and kill BACON in a functional way, then that's fine too. Once BACON stops working, then I will stop using it. HOWEVER, Until such time as one of those two conditions is met, BACON is TACITLY allowed, and I will continue using it. You should too. No I shouldn't. I don't need it, and neither should you if you're the least bit good at the game. I don't know how you can construe "frown on" as some kind of tacit approval or feel in the least bit proud of yourself for using it. Bluntly, I think you should be ashamed of yourself, and your alliance should be ashamed of you. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Ki An Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum	Posted - 2008.05.01 20:26:00 - [30] Oh boy, Bish, you're a stupid one, aren't you... Originally by: Bish Ounen In all Honesty, Ki An has gone off the deep end. There are plenty of instances of programs that CCP cannot detect or stop that CCP has categorically said "If we catch you using this we will ban you and delete your account." For example, Macro mining programs. If they catch you using one, you WILL be banned. That is because Macros explicitly violate the EULA as written as opposed to skirting the grey zone while clearly violating the spirit of the EULA as well as CCP's wishes. It has nothing to do with CCP specifically saying "Macros are banned". Originally by: Bish Ounen Again, Ki An is willfully ignoring all the communication between CCP and Gunfleet that occured BEFORE the BACON announcement, and the posts where BACON is cautiously ALLOWED. Allowed is a pretty wide margin. We can certainly determine that CCP did not APPROVE of BACON even from the start. As anything that CCP hasn't outright banned is technically 'allowed', you can have this bone. Originally by: Bish Ounen He is focusing on one word in one sentence, and impregnating it with meaning that he wishes it to have, but is nevertheless not there. This is what is commonly known as "Taking out of context". He is focusing down on one tiny aspect of the overall CCP-Gunfleet conversation to the exclusion of everything else. At the very least, it makes him a dishonest critic and debater, and one who's opinion you should not trust. I am sorry, but I have to call BS on this entire paragraph. Talk about seeing what you want to see. CCP has explicitly said that they frown upon this program and its use. It's pretty clear that they don't like it, that they don't want you to use it, and that they plan to stop you from using it as soon as they are able to get the new code working. The dishonest critic and debater here is you who, despite a PERFETLY CLEAR STATEMENT BY CCP, still insist that CCP allows, if not to say approves, of BACON. Originally by: Bish Ounen As far as whether CCP will ban BACON or not, we shall see. If they chose to make an official "BACON is not allowed, please do not use it." statement, then gunfleet will pull BACON, and I will stop using it. If they decide to simply allow it to continue until the encrypt the logserver and kill BACON in a functional way, then that's fine too. Once BACON stops working, then I will stop using it. I will call BS on this as well. If you had any sort of moral fibre you would stop using it now, as per CCP's request. As you won't, we can safely assume that you are one of those who would do anything to get ahead in a game, including outright cheating. Once you pass that grey line you can't go back. Cheater. Originally by: Bish Ounen HOWEVER, Until such time as one of those two conditions is met, BACON is TACITLY allowed, and I will continue using it. You should too. No, no one should. CCP doesn't want you to, and I think it's pretty rotten of you to continue to abuse this loop hole. You have no moral ground to stand on. You have a small technicality working in your favor right now, and if CCP were vindictive (not to say they aren't), they would do well to ban you when they get a fix working. Personally, I would give them a standing ovation for such a move. You are not the sort of person I would want to play this game with. Honest players seldom take kindly to cheaters like you, and I do hope you get what is coming to you. It is also interesting to see Ethereal Dawn take such a positive stance on this cheat software. Goes to show who they really are. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting

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