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something i've been wondering about the 'mini-freighter' idea

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000Hunter000 Gallente Missiles 'R' Us	Posted - 2008.05.01 17:51:00 - [1] u can find the link to the features and ideas thread here Now, this post is not really to discuss if this is a good/bad idea, but mostly me wondering why in all these years (the first post is from oct 2005 and it has been active ever since so not a necrothread) nobody from ccp has even once commented about it. If they don't like it, fine, say so (with a reason why would be nice) If u do like it, nice, but can u tell us if there is anything planned by now? or why it is so hard to implement this in almost 2.5 years? Anyways i think, i'm just fishing for a dev response about this tbh _______________________________________________________ CCP, let us pay the online shop with Direct Debit!!!
Scilent Enigma Minmatar Vae Victis Inc.	Posted - 2008.05.01 18:00:00 - [2] Usually they don't respond negatively to any given idea since they have learned from experience, never say never. What seems impossible (technologically etc.) or game breaking at the time may be easy as breathing or almost required in the future. A negative response from CCP almost always kills the idea discussion so from what I've seen they refrain from doing it even if the idea seems daft. On the topic of the mini-freighter, maybe it is in the works, they are still running the numbers to see how it might affect the commerce and distribution of goods in the EVE galaxy. As well as if there really is a need for it aside from a bunch of people who doesn't want to train for a full freighter but still want more cargo bay than an industrial ship can handle. No point in going through the trouble of making concepts then models, calculating the appropriate stats and adding it to the database if it doesn't add something to the game as a whole.
000Hunter000 Gallente Missiles 'R' Us	Posted - 2008.05.01 18:15:00 - [3] 2.5 years and 20 pages of posts, almost all of them positive... doing some looking through the forums, sofar not found a single response, not even a 'were looking into it' personally i rather have a 'no, because...' response then 2.5 years of ignoring is all i'm saying really.. oh well.. we'll see, mebbe in 2.5 more years i guess hehe. _______________________________________________________ CCP, let us pay the online shop with Direct Debit!!!
Drizit Amarr	Posted - 2008.05.01 18:23:00 - [4] I don't see how it would affect the game negatively any more than the freighter did. Having something smaller and slightly more agile than a freighter but with far less cargo space would definitely be an advantage in lowsec. The jump freighters IMO are just CCP's way of hashing up a ship that failed miserably due to it being so vulnerable. You need an armada to stop it getting ganked by very few ships in lowsec, all they need to do is tank your ships long enough to kill it. Once it's dead, it's a very expensive loss for any corp, even if fully insured. What's the point in having 750 thousand cubic meters of space if everyone says don't carry anything valuable. Unless you're carrying a full hold of Tritanium or something similarly cheap, the Freighter is a pointless waste of isk because you'll always have something of high value with a full hold. Otherwise, you would use a transport ship if you wanted to carry small valuable items. A small frieghter would allow less cargo but the agility would mean more chance to escape into warp before the shooting started. A 100K hold isn't a great deal larger than two Impels with full racks of T2 cargo expanders and two cargo rigs each, so what's the problem with letting us have this small and agile freighter? It does not have to warp any faster than a freighter. It does not need to fly sub-warp any faster than a freighter. Double the agility and 1/7 of the cargo capacity seems like a fair trade-off to me. -- Freighters need a tank
Khellendra	Posted - 2008.05.01 19:02:00 - [5] I'm against the mini-freighter idea. EVE runs on checks and balances or so it should. As an industrialist myself I see a need in purchasing a freighter and at times i really don't. The cargo space is huge but how often will i be transporting that much stuff? Added to it are the risks of getting suicide ganked. The mini-freighter would essentially eliminate the freighter for most operations, there isn't much of a purpose for a freighter, and having a mini-freighter would give an industrialist lots of benefit, realistically the same a freighter, without the negative costs. I think it would unbalance things a little bit. I'd rather seem them just juice up the armor/shield/structure on a freighter instead ;).
Dorisane	Posted - 2008.05.01 19:33:00 - [6] I really like the idea, freighters are too big for most needs, and as you said its hard to use them properly without getting ganked. Support fixing the UI
Ioci Gallente Ioci Exploration	Posted - 2008.05.01 19:53:00 - [7] There is nothing wrong with the current freighter. Treat it like a commodities titan though. T2 Indy is the 'mini freighter' and it still needs support. An impossible to pirate cargo ship? I don't see that happening.
Drizit Amarr	Posted - 2008.05.01 20:11:00 - [8] Originally by: Ioci An impossible to pirate cargo ship? I don't see that happening. Never impossible but maybe a bit harder than simplicity would make a ship with a large cargo hold worth having. -- Freighters need a tank
Victor Forge Amarr	Posted - 2008.05.01 21:03:00 - [9] Edited by: Victor Forge on 01/05/2008 21:04:47 I think a mini-freighter with a capacity of 100.000 m¦, 2 high-slots and 2 mid-slots, but with no low-slots, will be small enough to not making the actual freighter useless. Less slots than industrial ships, but at least it has some slots, unlike the Feighter. And it count as "Large" in terms what you can fit on it.
Treelox Amarr Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party	Posted - 2008.05.01 21:13:00 - [10] while the mini freighter would be nice, TBH the next "hauling" ship I would like to see is a ship that is able to use stargates, and move around rigged ships. It doesnt need to have any slots, just something like a hanger array that is able to hold a BS and a few other ships. Same rules apply to that hanger as a Carrier or Mothership. I say this because as rigs become more and more common, it becomes more and more a pain in the arse to move your operational base. This has become even more annoying since shuttles are no longer "everywhere". --

Jabezhane	Posted - 2008.05.02 11:28:00 - [11] Currently you have the choice of a UPS delvery van or an supertanker. I too think something inbetween would be a benefit. Helps folks move stuff and gives more range of targets for the gankers. Just needs a little thought and consideration. Win win really.
Ioci Gallente Ioci Exploration	Posted - 2008.05.02 11:37:00 - [12] Originally by: Drizit Originally by: Ioci An impossible to pirate cargo ship? I don't see that happening. Never impossible but maybe a bit harder than simplicity would make a ship with a large cargo hold worth having. I understand what you mean. I wouldn't own a freighter tbh. Move Ore in high sec to a station where you have a better refinery skill. Give it a 35 km dictor ability that jams any T1 ship. Then I might get one because high sec gank fleets aren't going to drop thier T2 ships to Concord.
CrayC Gallente CrayC Inc.	Posted - 2008.05.02 11:48:00 - [13] Jump freighters...
Drizit Amarr	Posted - 2008.05.02 12:37:00 - [14] Edited by: Drizit on 02/05/2008 12:39:23 Originally by: CrayC Jump freighters... ref: My first post in this thread. JF's are a rehash of a ship idea that failed to really take off. The current Freighter and JF are just gank fodder even in highsec. Take them to lowsec and you may as well self destruct them. Freighters attract gankers like flies to dog s**t. Now they add a nice big cyno beacon to it and call it an upgrade
Alora Venoda GalTech Giant Space Amoeba	Posted - 2008.05.02 15:07:00 - [15] it would be great to have a ship that can hold over 50,000 m3 and cost less than 500 mill. currently, as haulers go, it's like there are only frigates and "carriers"... no cruisers or even battleships.
Ryf Minmatar Native Freshfood	Posted - 2008.05.02 15:16:00 - [16] I doubt introducing a mini freighter will help anything, if anything at all it will just increase suicide ganking. Smaller ship, therefore will have less hit points and is easier to kill, less ships used to kill it means the value of the cargo needed to break even on the suicide op is reduced aswell. Whilst it may seem like a good idea i think with current game mechanics you will just end up with alot of dead mini freighters.
xttz GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.02 15:22:00 - [17] Edited by: xttz on 02/05/2008 15:26:36 Originally by: Drizit The current Freighter and JF are just gank fodder even in highsec. Take them to lowsec and you may as well self destruct them. Freighters attract gankers like flies to dog s**t. Now they add a nice big cyno beacon to it and call it an upgrade Perhaps because jump freighters were introduced as a tool for null-sec corp/alliance-level hauling... Much like motherships and titans, they have a significant price because they were never intended to be personal haulers just used in hi-sec. Jump freighters were introduced as a replacement to carrier hauling, which was how most 0.0 corps supplied their materials before the nerf. And as for being 'gank targets' - CCP have JFs to be used as any other capital ship - bring support if you want them to be safe.
Alora Venoda GalTech Giant Space Amoeba	Posted - 2008.05.02 16:26:00 - [18] Originally by: Ryf I doubt introducing a mini freighter will help anything, if anything at all it will just increase suicide ganking. Smaller ship, therefore will have less hit points and is easier to kill, less ships used to kill it means the value of the cargo needed to break even on the suicide op is reduced aswell. Whilst it may seem like a good idea i think with current game mechanics you will just end up with alot of dead mini freighters. one possible outcome is that mini-freighters would make regular freighters obsolete due to opportunity cost... it all depends on how they balance them
Ulfgar Rumnarn	Posted - 2008.05.02 16:46:00 - [19] Originally by: Drizit Edited by: Drizit on 02/05/2008 12:39:23 Originally by: CrayC Jump freighters... ref: My first post in this thread. JF's are a rehash of a ship idea that failed to really take off. The current Freighter and JF are just gank fodder even in highsec. Take them to lowsec and you may as well self destruct them. Freighters attract gankers like flies to dog s**t. Now they add a nice big cyno beacon to it and call it an upgrade You have no idea what you are talking about. I operate a Rhea and we use it EXCLUSIVLY in low sec because it bypasses gate camps. Learn how to use the ship. That thing is a POS fueling logistics god send...
Alz Shado Ever Flow	Posted - 2008.05.02 16:49:00 - [20] A ship with the agility of a BS, that has 120k m3 (enough room for a single shipping container -- no Macromining/Ratting here) and costs 250m-500m? Want! If anything, this would increase trade by expanding the average buy order radius, spur production in less populated regions, and boost Courier contracts that are already capped at 120k m3.

Alora Venoda GalTech Giant Space Amoeba	Posted - 2008.05.02 17:16:00 - [21] Originally by: Alz Shado A ship with the agility of a BS, that has 120k m3 (enough room for a single shipping container -- no Macromining/Ratting here) and costs 250m-500m? Want! If anything, this would increase trade by expanding the average buy order radius, spur production in less populated regions, and boost Courier contracts that are already capped at 120k m3. this ^^ although i would hope that it could have a tank at least as good as a transport ship, depending on the price... 50 mill isk - holds 60k m3 (without "maxed out modules/rigs"), slow and has crappy tank. basically a bigger industrial ship. maxed out could maybe get 90k m3... 250 mill isk - holds 120k m3, no modules allowed. a true mini-freighter with same restrictions on jetison etc.
Alz Shado Ever Flow	Posted - 2008.05.02 17:53:00 - [22] Originally by: Alora Venoda this ^^ although i would hope that it could have a tank at least as good as a transport ship, depending on the price... 50 mill isk - holds 60k m3 (without "maxed out modules/rigs"), slow and has crappy tank. basically a bigger industrial ship. maxed out could maybe get 90k m3... 250 mill isk - holds 120k m3, no modules allowed. a true mini-freighter with same restrictions on jetison etc. My only fear is that you'd end up with the Iteron issue - 5 different models, most of which are pretty useless. If you want to talk about a Tier 3 Hauler - make it something similar to a DST, with 3 highs, 1 mid, 8 lows and starts with a base cargo capacity of 10k m3 and bonuses to tractor beams and salvagers. Give it a price of about 125m, and let the pilot configure it however he wants: 8 Cargo Expanders? 4 Expanders, 4 WCS? 8 istabs? It's up to you!
Wild Rho Amarr GoonFleet	Posted - 2008.05.02 18:25:00 - [23] Mini freighters would ultimately obsolete regular indies and freighters. Freighters and indies currently work because they are at two extremes that give them unique roles. The indies are have speed, mobility and flexibility in their favour but cannot do alot of bulk hauling without alot of investment in rigs etc. The freighter in the other hand is perfect for hauling large volumes of cargo around with the penalty that it's the only thing it can really do (plus the initial expense). Both offer different abilities, advantages and disadvantages making sure they're both useful. A mid range hauler would wind up having the advantages of both and the disadvantages of neither making both redundant.
Alz Shado Ever Flow	Posted - 2008.05.02 18:48:00 - [24] Originally by: Wild Rho Battlecruisers would ultimately obsolete regular Cruisers and Battleships. Battleships and cruisers currently work because they are at two extremes that give them unique roles. The cruisers are have speed, mobility and flexibility in their favour but cannot do alot of bulk damage without alot of investment in rigs etc. The Battleship in the other hand is perfect for dealing large volumes of damage with the penalty that it's the only thing it can really do (plus the initial expense). Both offer different abilities, advantages and disadvantages making sure they're both useful. A mid range battlecruiser would wind up having the advantages of both and the disadvantages of neither making both redundant. Eve isn't black and white.
Alora Venoda GalTech Giant Space Amoeba	Posted - 2008.05.02 18:52:00 - [25] Originally by: Alz Shado Originally by: Alora Venoda this ^^ although i would hope that it could have a tank at least as good as a transport ship, depending on the price... 50 mill isk - holds 60k m3 (without "maxed out modules/rigs"), slow and has crappy tank. basically a bigger industrial ship. maxed out could maybe get 90k m3... 250 mill isk - holds 120k m3, no modules allowed. a true mini-freighter with same restrictions on jetison etc. My only fear is that you'd end up with the Iteron issue - 5 different models, most of which are pretty useless. If you want to talk about a Tier 3 Hauler - make it something similar to a DST, with 3 highs, 1 mid, 8 lows and starts with a base cargo capacity of 10k m3 and bonuses to tractor beams and salvagers. Give it a price of about 125m, and let the pilot configure it however he wants: 8 Cargo Expanders? 4 Expanders, 4 WCS? 8 istabs? It's up to you! the iteron issue is that all 5 versions are all very similar in price and capacity... the mini-freighter would be several orders of magnitude between hauler and normal freighters. to keep from making freighters obsolete, they should probably have nearly the same penalties as full version so if you can afford the full version you will just get that instead. their main purpose will be so that individuals without billions of isk can haul on a larger scale, or if you only need to haul 90k m3 or so and don't want to risk that big expensive freighter that can hold 10x as much. currentlty the only other option would be to make 4 or 5 trips in a decent industrial. also the mini-freighter would make lvl 5 courier missions more plausible. like to move 80k m3 7 or 8 jumps.
SiJira	Posted - 2008.05.02 19:00:00 - [26] the more i look at how insurance works the more i see that this is not such a bad idea
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris	Posted - 2008.05.02 19:54:00 - [27] My .02 isk: I think CCP believes that introducing a mini-freighter would kill the transport market for big freighters. The skill training and costs are currently a big hurdle for people to get their own freighter. If a mini-freighter (with reduced requirements and cost) is introduced, lots of players would start moving their big stuff themselves. I sure would. Also, a regular freighter (with all the war targets around) would pose too much of a risk to me for the 20,000 - 100,000 m3 loads I really want to move on a semi-regular basis.
Wild Rho Amarr GoonFleet	Posted - 2008.05.02 19:58:00 - [28] Edited by: Wild Rho on 02/05/2008 20:00:12 Originally by: Alz Shado Originally by: Wild Rho Battlecruisers would ultimately obsolete regular Cruisers and Battleships. Battleships and cruisers currently work because they are at two extremes that give them unique roles. The cruisers are have speed, mobility and flexibility in their favour but cannot do alot of bulk damage without alot of investment in rigs etc. The Battleship in the other hand is perfect for dealing large volumes of damage with the penalty that it's the only thing it can really do (plus the initial expense). Both offer different abilities, advantages and disadvantages making sure they're both useful. A mid range battlecruiser would wind up having the advantages of both and the disadvantages of neither making both redundant. Eve isn't black and white. All you've done is emphasize my point. Each of the combat classes has a niche and still brings something unique for its roll (you can argue how effectively but the point still stands), for your example BCs bring command bonuses. A mid range hauler does non of that because unlike combat ships there are not that many wide ranging roles for industrial ships to carry out so all it would do is take over the roles of the other two.
Alz Shado Ever Flow	Posted - 2008.05.02 19:59:00 - [29] Originally by: Alora Venoda the iteron issue is that all 5 versions are all very similar in price and capacity... the mini-freighter would be several orders of magnitude between hauler and normal freighters. to keep from making freighters obsolete, they should probably have nearly the same penalties as full version so if you can afford the full version you will just get that instead. their main purpose will be so that individuals without billions of isk can haul on a larger scale, or if you only need to haul 90k m3 or so and don't want to risk that big expensive freighter that can hold 10x as much. currentlty the only other option would be to make 4 or 5 trips in a decent industrial. also the mini-freighter would make lvl 5 courier missions more plausible. like to move 80k m3 7 or 8 jumps. All I'm saying is that this doesn't need to be so complicated. Minifreighters and Tier 3 transport ships are, in my mind, two entirely different animals. The minifreighters should be an NPC faction (Interbus?) ship that isn't racial specific, like how exhumers are ORE faction. One ship with the agility and warp speed of a BS, no slots, and a base 120k m3 in a cargo hold. If you're feeling generous, we can add in a second tier version that requires a "Minifreighter" skill to be at V, that has 240m3. That's it. Each race would have a Tier 3 Transport ship, which adds flexibility and customization. Using the DST hull and 10k m3 base capacity, give it 8 slots so the pilot can choose between volume (8x CE IIs @ 10k = approx 70k m3, or 90k m3 with GSCs) or security (8 WCSes won't save you from a HIC though). Separate the concepts, and get the Minifreighter to market ASAP.
Alz Shado Ever Flow	Posted - 2008.05.02 20:08:00 - [30] Originally by: Merdaneth My .02 isk: I think CCP believes that introducing a mini-freighter would kill the transport market for big freighters. The skill training and costs are currently a big hurdle for people to get their own freighter. If a mini-freighter (with reduced requirements and cost) is introduced, lots of players would start moving their big stuff themselves. I sure would. Also, a regular freighter (with all the war targets around) would pose too much of a risk to me for the 20,000 - 100,000 m3 loads I really want to move on a semi-regular basis. Except there's really a huge gap between a fully rigged out DST that does 40-50k m3 and a capital-class Freighter (yes, they're CAP ships) that hauls 850k m3. In my example above, I should have used "Cruiser" and "Dreadnought" because that better illustrates the real difference between the two. A lot of the hauling jobs now (especially because of size limitation of contracts) fall between 75k-120k. You're essentially using 1/8th of the space in a freighter to do that job, or making three trips in a DST (or more, in a tier 1 hauler). There needs to be a ship that fills that middle ground, as production increases and market volumes outside of Jita rise. Freighters will always have a purpose -- to move BIG jobs. Much like Dreadnoughts, who have a specific role, freighters excel at what they're best at. What they SUCK at are day-to-day tasks, and at this point are nothing but an isk and time SINK.



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