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Let's start with removing hi sec ice to low sec!

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Tarminic Black Flame Industries	Posted - 2008.05.01 21:19:00 - [1] You cannot get more players into 0.0 by trying to squeeze them out of high-sec. 75% of the players you'll squeezing will be squeezed right out of EVE, not into low-sec. ---------------- Tarminic - 35 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.81 (Updated 4/8)
Tarminic Black Flame Industries	Posted - 2008.05.01 21:55:00 - [2] Originally by: Marcus TheMartin Originally by: Tarminic You cannot get more players into 0.0 by trying to squeeze them out of high-sec. 75% of the players you'll squeezing will be squeezed right out of EVE, not into low-sec. prove it That's an unreasonable request - I can't "prove" what would happen if high-sec was removed or if all the rewards were removed unless it's actually done. I can, based on my own observations, postulate that converting a high-sec system to a low-sec one will see 90% of the current population moving out due to the increased isk. I think that most of the EVE community would agree with me. Based on the above, I draw the conclusion that the majority of those in high-sec are due to low risk, otherwise they would likely be in NPC 0.0 space where rewards are higher than in high-security space. Therefore, any change that increases the risk of staying in a location, even if the rewards are increased proportionally, wil result in a 75% net loss (most leave due to the risk, some pirates or anti-pirates move in). Assuming that the above are relatively accurate, the wholesale removal of high-security space will cause a few to adapt by moving to low-sec or 0.0 space, while the majority would simply find a different game to play. ---------------- Tarminic - 35 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.81 (Updated 4/8)
Tarminic Black Flame Industries	Posted - 2008.05.01 22:08:00 - [3] Originally by: Marcus TheMartin your basis of 75% of people would quit is based entirely on the argument of the stereotypical eternal quitter. If x happens I'll quit. I doubt 75% of the highsec population are ice miners and I also doubt that people will quit en mass due to the fact that they can't log on read the paper, read chain mail letters in their inbox, and check their jet cans That 75% figure has nothing to do with the forums. Whenever CCP increases the rewards for operating in low-sec (as they have several times), it has little on the actual population. I believe that is due to the fact that most players in high-sec value lower risk much more than a higher reward. Therefore, increasing the reward a high-risk area will have little effect on it's most of those in high security space unless the increase is extremely dramatic. Conversely, decreasing the reward in an area of low-risk will have little effect on the population of high-security space unless that is extremely drastic. Since most players in high-security space are risk-adverse, they will leave the game instead of adapting to function in a high-risk environment. NOTE: By "risk" I mean the likelihood of losing wealth they've accumulated. By "reward" i mean the rate at which they can accumulate wealth. ---------------- Tarminic - 35 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.81 (Updated 4/8)
Tarminic Black Flame Industries	Posted - 2008.05.01 22:37:00 - [4] Edited by: Tarminic on 01/05/2008 22:37:46 Originally by: Marcus TheMartin I'm not seeing the point of quitting since a mackinaw requires exhumers II and the required ice refining skills would leave the "homeless" ice miners pretty well of for re specializing in other low skill req highsec ores (see hulk on veld action). Regardless I feel you pulled the 75% out of your ass I'm not saying that 75% of ice miners would quit if ice was moved to low-sec. I'm saying that carebears - of which empire ice miners are a subset - always gravitate activities that: 1. Offer the lowest risk (Most important by far) 2. Offer the highest reward If you remove ice from empire, 75% of those who mined ice in empire would switch to another low-risk, high-reward activity. 25%, at most, would move to low-sec, though I imagine most of them would rather move to 0.0 space instead since the risk is lower there. That 75% would only quit if there was no other low-risk activity. ---------------- Tarminic - 35 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.81 (Updated 4/8)
Tarminic Black Flame Industries	Posted - 2008.05.01 22:44:00 - [5] Edited by: Tarminic on 01/05/2008 22:43:59 Originally by: Zetjur Jilnou Simple solution really. Instead of removing it, see the difference between empire and 0.0 ice fields - 0.0 has higher yield ice. Simply do the same again - create a lower than normal yield ice and swap high sec to those, with low sec having it as it is now and 0.0 with the high yield. See here as to why that won't work. The most important aspect of an empire ice miner/carebear in general is low risk. Unless the risk is lowered, regardless of the reward, nothing will change. ---------------- Tarminic - 35 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.81 (Updated 4/8)
Tarminic Black Flame Industries	Posted - 2008.05.01 22:53:00 - [6] Originally by: Marcus TheMartin Numbers still being pulled out of your ass I think they're relatively accurate. Would you agree to the fact that 75% of those in high-sec remain there due to the low risk more than the high reward? It's not a statistically accurate survey (which would be very difficult to obtain), but it's based on my experience in empire space and low-sec space, of which I have a lot. Quote: Highsec is full of other lowrisk activities your point? Exactly. 75% of those mining ice would move on to other low-risk activities in high-sec. My original statement is regarding what would happen if you removed high-sec space entirely, not high-sec ice. I wasn't suggesting that the removal of high-sec ice would result in 75% of high-sec ice miners quitting. ---------------- Tarminic - 35 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.81 (Updated 4/8)
Tarminic Black Flame Industries	Posted - 2008.05.01 23:06:00 - [7] Edited by: Tarminic on 01/05/2008 23:14:36 Originally by: Marcus TheMartin "Ah, I see what your definition of "improve" is. Easy mackinaw kills to pad your kill mails." callisthenes excelsior has a 3.1 sec status and his corp doesn't have a public killboard also see Strawman I don't think that's a strawman, just a poor assumption. Pirates aren't hiding the fact that the reason they want low-sec improved is so more people will go there, giving them more opportunities to engage in combat. I also think a number of pirates are less interested in combat in the traditional sense and more interested in earning ISK/prestige through easy kills. Originally by: Marcus TheMartin Is accuracy based on a guess still accuracy? Removing ice from highsec will move miners to veld but will make the asset all the more valuable since it is now only available in non concord protected zones Firstly: I've spent a lot of time in a high-sec corp, and I assume that the behavior I witnessed is relatively normal for a high-sec industrial corp, which matches the carebear definition I've been using. Their primary motivation for playing was setting goals for themselves and the corporation and accomplishing them. Most of those goals involved accumulating wealth and industrial power, and those goals would be hindered by the high-risk of low-sec. Also: CCP has increased the rewards for non-combat low-sec activities specifically designed to appeal to the industry-minded players (carebears). These improvements have had little success in drawing carebears to low-security space. Therefore I believe that low risk and not high reward is the most important factor for carebears. Therefore the reward for low-sec is irrelevant to high-sec players. If it became valuable enough to make up for the risks (which would be very high), players from 0.0 would utilize them first because they are less risk-adverse. ---------------- Tarminic - 35 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.81 (Updated 4/8)
Tarminic Black Flame Industries	Posted - 2008.05.01 23:44:00 - [8] Edited by: Tarminic on 01/05/2008 23:47:58 Quit ignoring me marcus. ---------------- (Forgot to pay my sub, back in a few days! ) Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.81 (Updated 4/8)
Tarminic Black Flame Industries	Posted - 2008.05.02 00:06:00 - [9] Edited by: Tarminic on 02/05/2008 00:06:05 Originally by: Marcus TheMartin by industrial themed additions to lowsec do you mean exploration? I should have said industrial/carebear. Additions to low-sec include, but are not limited to: 1. Exploration content much better than available in high-sec 2. Synthetic booster production 3. Level 5 missions 4. Higher-quality level 4 mission agents 2 and 3 are completely exclusive to low-sec with no noticeable effects. And when people complain about why they suck, the argument is always that they're not rewarding enough for the risk. If you improve the reward to greater than what is in 0.0, all that would happen is that pilots from 0.0 would take them over, not high-sec players. ---------------- (Forgot to pay my sub, back in a few days! ) Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.81 (Updated 4/8)
Tarminic Black Flame Industries	Posted - 2008.05.02 00:30:00 - [10] Originally by: Shadow Joy Originally by: Tarminic ... CCP has increased the rewards for non-combat low-sec activities specifically designed to appeal to the industry-minded players (carebears). These improvements have had little success in drawing carebears to low-security space. Therefore I believe that low risk and not high reward is the most important factor for carebears. Therefore the reward for low-sec is irrelevant to high-sec players. If it became valuable enough to make up for the risks (which would be very high), players from 0.0 would utilize them first because they are less risk-adverse. I disagree with this assessment. I think the problem is that perceived risk versus the perceived reward is too small. As an example, say that you have a cruiser that costs 6 million. You know there is an opportunity for a quick 3 million ISK profit in low sec. Would you take that gamble if you thought you would be blown up 60% of the time you tried for the prize? Now if that potential profit was 12 million, I believe most people would at least be willing to take an occasional shot. That's true to an extent, but even if it is true you still have a problem. Carebears, if they go to low-sec, won't stay there. It's one thing to intercept logistics traveling between 0.0 and empire space or someone popping in and out, but the fundamental problems with low-sec will remain as long as people other than pirates and anti-pirates don't live there. That's because even with a MUCH higher reward, the risk - perceived or real - will still be too great. If you crank up the reward to ungodly and levels 0.0 players, who are not risk-adverse, will simply utilize them instead of carebears. The ONLY viable solution is to make low-sec safer for carebears, alone AND in groups. ---------------- (Forgot to pay my sub, back in a few days! ) Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.81 (Updated 4/8)
Tarminic Black Flame Industries	Posted - 2008.05.02 00:33:00 - [11] Originally by: Marcus TheMartin And if 0.0 pilots come up to reap lowsec rewards the end goal of more people in lowsec is met But currently half of EVE players never set foot outside of high sec space (according to the 2nd economic report). Encouraging 0.0 players, who are already a fairly small minority, to move to low-sec doesn't solve the problem. The problem is that there are too many people in high-sec and not enough people in low-sec. ---------------- (Forgot to pay my sub, back in a few days! ) Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.81 (Updated 4/8)
Tarminic Black Flame Industries	Posted - 2008.05.02 01:26:00 - [12] Originally by: Marcus TheMartin but this is a thread about moving ice from highsec And I'm arguing that this will have a very small effect in accomplishing the goal of encouraging those in high-sec to base their operations out of low-sec. Isn't that the entire point of moving ice from highsec? ---------------- (Forgot to pay my sub, back in a few days! ) Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.81 (Updated 4/8)

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