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Petition to change Logserver / ban BACON.

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 5 post(s)
Reuser Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.04 16:21:00 - [1] Don't bother posting links to anything. NightmareX can't read. True story.
Reuser Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.04 17:13:00 - [2] Originally by: Strak Yogorn actually we dont need this topic anyway, as it brings nothing new to the discussion, you might as well have used one of the 342565726 other topics .. bacons biggest problem is, that they went public. just imagine if you could get the users of all the other utils to admit, that they are using something to gain an edge.. but that will never happen. Actually, being open and honest is BACON's biggest strength, not BACON's biggest problem, IMHO. Second, you are right. This thread is nothing different than the x other rants on BACON. Problem is, NightmareX was losing quite badly to his own logic in the other thread. I stopped reading when he started accusing CCP of breaking their own EULA. tl;dr - In before the lock.
Reuser Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.04 17:16:00 - [3] Originally by: NightmareX Does the API key makes you take an advantage over other players? Do you even know what is possible using the API? Some of Gunfleet's next applications leverage the API, and I assure you, if BACON is freaking you out, go ahead and quit now.
Reuser Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.04 21:14:00 - [4] Originally by: NightmareX Originally by: hydraSlav ... Instead of the player doing the job of checking local (which is an exploit in itself if you ask me... Thanks. Finally someone that see my WHOLE point of this topic. I'm amazed that so many fail to see it. You're perfect for each other... Both of you want to tell CCP what is and isn't right in their universe.
Reuser Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.04 23:47:00 - [5] Originally by: CCP Atropos Anyone who thinks otherwise is deluding themselves, and as such we will be responding to BACON in turn. I'm not going to divulge details on the subject, but the simple fact that players will goto such lengths to get an edge over players disturbs me quite deeply. Can we take this as a communication to pull the BACON website? As we have said MULTIPLE times in e-mail, we will be happy to. Second, someone in CCP needs to address the fact, as alluded to by CCP Grimmi, that there are many tools like BACON, and being used by large groups of people in secret. Third, I'm not sure, as a developer, how much more transparent we could have been. Perhaps you can advise me. Advance knowledge, requests for approval, open source, changing our code. How can we in the future give CCP more insight into our process?
Reuser Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.05 00:20:00 - [6] Originally by: Reuser Can we take this as a communication to pull the BACON website? As we have said MULTIPLE times in e-mail, we will be happy to. Second, someone in CCP needs to address the fact, as alluded to by CCP Grimmi, that there are many tools like BACON, and being used by large groups of people in secret. Third, I'm not sure, as a developer, how much more transparent we could have been. Perhaps you can advise me. Advance knowledge, requests for approval, open source, changing our code. How can we in the future give CCP more insight into our process? Bump for answers to my questions. I don't feel comfortable being labeled as villains when we went out of our way to work with CCP in an open, transparent, and accountable fashion.
Reuser Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.05 01:34:00 - [7] Again, CCP, please respond... Originally by: Reuser Can we take this as a communication to pull the BACON website? As we have said MULTIPLE times in e-mail, we will be happy to. Second, someone in CCP needs to address the fact, as alluded to by CCP Grimmi, that there are many tools like BACON, and being used by large groups of people in secret. Third, I'm not sure, as a developer, how much more transparent we could have been. Perhaps you can advise me. Advance knowledge, requests for approval, open source, changing our code. How can we in the future give CCP more insight into our process? I think the third point is the most important. How does one get "OFFICIAL" approval for an application? We've had every CCP response from 'this doesn't look like a problem', to 'this isn't a problem' on to 'we frown on it' to now, apparently, 'You brought an existing problem to light, you're a cheater.' That's in sequential order, by the way. How does a third party software developer go about getting a canonical answer?
Reuser Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.05 02:02:00 - [8] Originally by: NightF0x Please link to the thread that anyone with authority at CCP said 'this isn't a problem'. Sure! Link Will you read it in chronological order? No. No, I doubt you will. Note that thread happened almost a week before we launched BACON. NM. Facts have been totally ignored in this thread. And I STILL want answers to my questions from CCP: Quote: Can we take this as a communication to pull the BACON website? As we have said MULTIPLE times in e-mail, we will be happy to. Second, someone in CCP needs to address the fact, as alluded to by CCP Grimmi, that there are many tools like BACON, and being used by large groups of people in secret. Third, I'm not sure, as a developer, how much more transparent we could have been. Perhaps you can advise me. Advance knowledge, requests for approval, open source, changing our code. How can we in the future give CCP more insight into our process?
Reuser Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.05 02:05:00 - [9] Originally by: Havohej Gunfleet just squeeked, so now the logserver.exe is going to get oiled. GG Hydra. In essence, I agree. I just want CCP to be clear and open about it. Note - I have had my finger on the killswitch of bacon.gunfleet.org since I have read CCP's latest posts. I await their decision. Originally by: Reuser Can we take this as a communication to pull the BACON website? As we have said MULTIPLE times in e-mail, we will be happy to. Second, someone in CCP needs to address the fact, as alluded to by CCP Grimmi, that there are many tools like BACON, and being used by large groups of people in secret. Third, I'm not sure, as a developer, how much more transparent we could have been. Perhaps you can advise me. Advance knowledge, requests for approval, open source, changing our code. How can we in the future give CCP more insight into our process?
Reuser Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.05 15:56:00 - [10] Originally by: CCP Atropos Allow me to reiterate, what I've said is neither a CCP condemnation nor endorsement of the BACON project, or any similar tools. BACON is what it is, and I don't think that there's ever been endorsement of a product that utilises the Logserver in such a fashion. I sincerely doubt that there will be an official call from us to cease BACON, since as has been said many times, it's not connected to EVE in any fashion, making detecting it tricky without creating some sort of invasive software trawl akin to Warden, and I'm sure that even those vehemently against BACON don't want that. Furthermore, BACON differs to other third party, community created tools such as EVEMon, EFT and Quickfit, because all of those are making use of resources that have been made available to specifically cater to those wanting to make software to work in concert with EVE. This is accomplished through the use of the API and the static data dumps for the most part, and doesn't rely on creating an alternate use for what is essentially a bug reporting tool. The trouble with creating a product that has such an avid fan base of computer savvy people is that we end up with situations such as this, where what essentially arises is a feedback cycle. We have created and released EVE, the community then creates Program A. In turn we reanalyse our stance and change EVE. The community then creates Program B... ad infinitum. This is the situation we're always going to be in since the community as a whole is infinitely more innovative and diverse than any testing or design platform we could envisage. It's not always ideal, but it is, in my opinion, inevitable. We're midway through that cycle presently, waiting for the 'official' response from us with the next iteration of our software. What has happened is not inherently bad, and at no point does anyone here blame the developers of any of the third party tools. If they hadn't created a particular tool, the sheer size of the player base would make it inevitable that someone else would; look at the concurrent rise in supply and demand for killboards as an example of this. What's left for us to do is redesign the associated areas of impact and move forward from there. I hope this reduces the finger pointing at BACON, and it's Gunfleet developers, as well as the frankly ridiculous branding of both sides as idiots and/or carebears. We're very much aware of the situation and as I've said already, it's being dealt with. Thank you for the clarification, Atropos. Whatever anyone else may think of us, we love playing EVE, and we've tried to be completely open, transparent and honest with both CCP and the community. Reading your response, I understand a bit more the no-man's-land we are in as developers, but quite honestly, I'll be posting in the Eve Technology forum asking for a formal set of guidelines. Even if our next several products rely on the API, as we've found in these threads, even if you, the developer, thinks you are doing all the right things... The community may not.

Reuser Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.06 00:36:00 - [11] Originally by: NightmareX Well if the dev reply on page 4 and 6 is not clear enough for you guys, then you can get out of this topic, please, because you simply don't understand what have been said by the dev and others in the topic, so you wont listen anyways. Actually, they aren't terribly clear at all. Could you tell me what was settled, oh king of jurisprudence?
Reuser Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.06 00:38:00 - [12] While you're thinking that question through, let's think about the below, from the other thread... 1. Given: Instant communication is possible in the EVE universe. Support: You can talk to your mates in Syndicate when you're in Delve, instantly. Evemail, Voice comms, etc. See: http://www.eve-online.com/background/communication/ 2. Given: The EVE interface gives feedback on events via sound. Support: Warp scram sounds, jump gate sounds, uncloaking sounds, enemy guns firing, etc. For the technical, there is no way that you can hear the enemy guns in space. That is a synthesized sound by Aura/your crew/something. 3. Given: EVE technology is FAR, FAR in advance of our current Terran technology. By several orders of magnitude, at least. Support: Self evident. 4. Given: EVE stargates are ancient, pre-Jovian technology reproduced by the four races. Support: http://www.eve-online.com/background/jump/jump_02.asp 5. Given: EVE's computer science is at least as advanced as our own. Support: Working technology based on quantum computing, region wide markets, etc. 6. Given: Local channel exists. There is an event when a new starship joins local. Support: Self evident. 7. Given: Ships have an advanced on board computer, Aura. Source: EVE tutorial. I think we can all agree that these are the facts about the EVE universe we inhabit. Given these facts, one cannot refute that the potential exists, within the EVE universe to duplicate BACON. Given the military competition between the four races, and the consequences of failing to develop a Threat Warning System, it is extremely, extremely improbable that the TWS did NOT evolve in EVE. Discuss.
Reuser Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.06 00:41:00 - [13] First sentence, last post by CCP Atropos: Originally by: CCP Atropos Allow me to reiterate, what I've said is neither a CCP condemnation nor endorsement of the BACON project, or any similar tools.
Reuser Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.06 00:52:00 - [14] Edited by: Reuser on 06/05/2008 00:53:36 Originally by: NightmareX Reuser, please don't make you look like an idiot by saying that. CCP Atropos said exactly how they was feeling and thinking about BACON there. I don't think they couldn't have had been any more clear on what he said there. Answer my question... Have you read CCP Atropos' comment? First sentence: Originally by: CCP Atropos Allow me to reiterate, what I've said is neither a CCP condemnation nor endorsement of the BACON project, or any similar tools. Stop reading what you want to read and start reading. (Edit for missing ')
Reuser Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.06 00:58:00 - [15] Originally by: NightmareX Originally by: Reuser Answer my question... Have you read CCP Atropos' comment? First sentence: Originally by: CCP Atropos Allow me to reiterate, what I've said is neither a CCP condemnation nor endorsement of the BACON project, or any similar tools. I don't think you didn't understand what he did mean by that. There is no way to misunderstand that. Maybe for you - yes. For a logical, functioning human, no.
Reuser Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.06 01:00:00 - [16] What do these two quotes mean to you, NightmareX? Originally by: "CCP Atropos" What has happened is not inherently bad, and at no point does anyone here blame the developers of any of the third party tools. Originally by: "CCP Atropos" I hope this reduces the finger pointing at BACON, and it's Gunfleet developers, as well as the frankly ridiculous branding of both sides as idiots and/or carebears.
Reuser Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.06 01:01:00 - [17] Originally by: NightmareX Edited by: NightmareX on 06/05/2008 00:58:32 I don't think you didn't understand what he did mean by that. He is talking about the BACON project. He's basicly talking about why they can't do anything to stop the actually BACON project. But do still continue to flame me or try to defend BACON, you wont get ANY way with it anyways. Fifth edit there, man.... Keep it up. Either answer my valid questions, or cede the points.
Reuser Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.06 01:10:00 - [18] Originally by: NightmareX Then tell me why CCP is changing the Logserver?, does they do it because they think it's fun? No, they do it for a REASON. Answer all of my questions above, and I will give you a full and honest assessment of my opinion. Either that, or cede my points.
Reuser Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.06 01:28:00 - [19] Originally by: cyt0matrix That they are sick of you whining and us *****ing about bacon. Bacon is getting bbqed. End of discussion. Heh! AMEN!
Reuser Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.06 01:48:00 - [20] That being said, on to making fun of people... NightmareX? Are you ready to respond to any of my last 5 posts? Would you like to respond to my thought experiment? Do you know what a thought experiment is?

Reuser Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.06 01:59:00 - [21] Originally by: NightmareX Originally by: Reuser That being said, on to making fun of people... NightmareX? Are you ready to respond to any of my last 5 posts? Would you like to respond to my thought experiment? Do you know what a thought experiment is? No, because they are already been answered. Maybe not by me, but maybe by some others here in this topic. That's EXACTLY what I expected. Have fun with the trolling, NightmareX.
Reuser Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.06 02:03:00 - [22] Originally by: Siigari Kitawa Reuser I swear to God, you're either just an idiot or you don't care about crapping on CCP. You're like NightmareX, you read what you want to... I don't mind zealots. I mind _stupid_ zealots. Originally by: "CCP Atropos" Allow me to reiterate, what I've said is neither a CCP condemnation nor endorsement of the BACON project, or any similar tools. Originally by: "CCP Atropos" ...the community as a whole is infinitely more innovative and diverse than any testing or design platform we could envisage. It's not always ideal, but it is, in my opinion, inevitable.. Originally by: "CCP Atropos" What has happened is not inherently bad, and at no point does anyone here blame the developers of any of the third party tools. Originally by: "CCP Atropos" I hope this reduces the finger pointing at BACON, and it's Gunfleet developers, as well as the frankly ridiculous branding of both sides as idiots and/or carebears. Discuss.
Reuser Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.06 02:12:00 - [23] Originally by: NightmareX AGAIN, you uberfail to see the point in what CCP Atropos actually are meaning by that. And also, like CCP Atropos said HERE. I'm not going to divulge details on the subject, but the simple fact that players will goto such lengths to get an edge over players disturbs me quite deeply. CCP Atropos said that, and when he say that you ARE taking an advantage or edge over other players in EVE, then ofc it's cheat. Why wouldn't it be a cheat? Edit your posts much? Trying to revise history? It's common in the insane.
Reuser Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.06 02:23:00 - [24] Originally by: NightmareX Shut up about the editing, it's allowed to edit a post when you see that you have tons of spelling errors and that. And not only that, it's 04:17 Am here in Norway. I don't mind spelling, you keep adding things... Seriously, at least give me an (EDIT) caption at the bottom of the post so I know which NEW argument to attack. That being said, you should go to bed, as you are making very little sense. I don't want to win against someone who is off his game.
Reuser Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.06 02:39:00 - [25] Originally by: Siigari Kitawa You have to take the entire post in a context, and not be nitpicky like a politician. We are not here to be politicians. We are here to obey what CCP lays out for us. Because you are nitpicking what Atropos said, you are not respecting the CONTEXT of what he is trying to say. There is a lot of opinion in your post. I've read each and every post by CCP exhaustively. I have dreams about them. It's my job to respond to people like you. My job sucks. Right now, it's still up in the air, according to every CCP post, CCP cannot and more importantly WILL not make a definitive statement on this until the next major code release. They know about BACON, they know about the other tools and come that release all log server based tools are going away. Read that last sentence again. "All log server based tools are going away." That's a good thing and that sentence makes me very happy. What doesn't make me happy is the EVE community being selectively blind about the existence of these tools. Who are you anyway? Are you the uber-troll that NightmareX has on speed-dial?
Reuser Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.06 02:43:00 - [26] Originally by: Christari Zuborov The opposite action of doing this, really makes you look like a immature tard, and can validate that entities initial caution. I do believe you refuted yourself.
Reuser Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.06 02:45:00 - [27] Originally by: NightmareX Anyways, STAY ON TOPIC. And don't make stupid excuses why you think i'm wrong, when it's prooved that i'm 100% right about everything in this topic. What? What, in the name of anything you hold holy, are you on?
Reuser Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.06 02:48:00 - [28] Originally by: NightmareX Originally by: Reuser Who are you anyway? Are you the uber-troll that NightmareX has on speed-dial? Don't talk about trolling here, because so far you have prooven to be more of a troll than all of the troll posts in total in this post. Because the CEO of Gunfleet has no right to speak? Seriously?
Reuser Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.06 02:49:00 - [29] Originally by: NightmareX Edited by: NightmareX on 06/05/2008 02:48:01 Jesus christ man, stop beeing an idiot Reuser. Oh hey, there is a Report button here, i'm tempted to try it out, because you doing nothing more than trolling and making excuses. ANOTHER EDIT!
Reuser Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.06 02:52:00 - [30] I hate to do this, but I am calling for the lock. NightmareX called an amazingly well reasoned post a "wall of text". Either the mods come in and do some serious pruning, or this is lost... (Reporting my own post for the lock)

Reuser Caldari Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.06 03:08:00 - [31] Originally by: NightmareX I know, and i also know that he see that i'm right and he can't do anything to save his pile of ** program, so he does everything he can do to try and get it locked. Can you read, seriously? Can you? Are you some kind of a uber-robot-stupid-troll??? Originally by:** Reuser Read that last sentence again. "All log server based tools are going away." That's a good thing and that sentence makes me very happy. What doesn't make me happy is the EVE community being selectively blind about the existence of these tools.
Reuser Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.06 03:12:00 - [32] Originally by: Liang Nuren Once they've encrypted the logs, if the key is dynamically generated based on certain inputs, then BACON will have to actually jack with Eve to find those inputs out. And then BACON will be against the EULA. Until then, keep up the ingenious work, Gunfleet. :p -Liang Gunfleet Logistics will never mount an INSTANT of effort to try to break that key. I know every director in Gunfleet and I can tell you I have their vote in this instance. We went to CCP with our questions, and we will continue to do so. And thanks.

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