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raylon
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Posted - 2008.05.07 13:05:00 -
[1]
My frustration with salvage looters stems from my inability to do anything in response aside from suicide attacking.
Let me paint a picture here.
I had just recently finished an L4 mission when a 4 day old character belonging to the SWA NPC corp shows up and starts salvaging my wrecks. He's piloting a Heron.
This is lame because
- He is only 4 days old and it took me a very long time to be able to solo a L4 mission
- He is in a heron, 2 burned logic circuits and he's carrying the value of his ship (suicide atk with what? its nothing to him)
- He is in SWA, I can not WAR DEC an NPC Corp.
- I can not put a bounty on his head cause he is 0.0
- He is obviously an ALT
My only possible recourse is to suicide attack, for which i loose security (correct?).
I would recommend the following solution to this problem.
Allow player set standing to be used as a bitfield value which enables others to perform certain functions
standing +0.1 person can salvage my wrecks
standing +0.2 person can loot my wrecks
standing +0.3 person can salvage and loot my wrecks
without appropriate standing, the salvager is made an aggressor.
This solution is a brainstorm, im sure there are other issues at hand - but i simply did not want to point out this problem without offering a solution.
-raylon
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raylon
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Posted - 2008.05.07 13:43:00 -
[2]
 Originally by: Had Enough
Maybe lets not? Most things in Eve are based on "RL world stuff" like Ship types, Weapons, Astronomy etc. so why should salvaging be any different?
Exactly, theft in Real Life has consequences.
Thanks for proving my point
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raylon
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Posted - 2008.05.07 14:10:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Had Enough
In case you missed it.
Originally by: zoolkhan
And otehrwise it is usually the first on the scene who claims the right.
Exactly, the first person who gets to the wreck and salvages it.
I'm pretty sure the first person on scene was the one who made the ship a wreck?
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raylon
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Posted - 2008.05.07 14:12:00 -
[4]
Edited by: raylon on 07/05/2008 14:12:38
My point here is - not that it should be banned, but that there should be consequences.
if that takes the form of security loss, agression countdown, whatever.
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raylon
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Posted - 2008.05.09 04:20:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Rawr Cristina
Ninja-salvaging is about the only player interaction these people see and a very demanding profession (in terms of skill, patience, effort, etc) compared to mission farmer, so why hurt it?
Your wrong about this being a demanding profession. I am constantly "ninja salvaged" by 4 day old, 0.0 security, NPC Corp alts for which I have no recourse aside from suicide attacking (i explain this more exhaustivly on page 2 of this thread).
This would be entirelly different if there was any sort of skill involved or consequence for this action. instead, people have found a "free money" loop hole.
Let me also point out that missions such as Worlds Collide - L4, return easily 15 million in salvage alone, close to the total bounty for the entire mission. soloing this mission can take me and hour and a half - enough time for a 4 day old toon to whip around is his noob-mobile and salvage a good percent of that take - *with no recourse*
again, lets not ban this "profession", lets just make it realistic.
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raylon
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Posted - 2008.05.09 12:32:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Allaria Kriss
I run missions out of a major mission hub constantly and have only had one ninja-salvager ever ... [snip] ... Days, nay, weeks of missioning and it happened once. Was it annoying? Yes. Was it enough to make me whine on a forum about it? No. All in all, I'd say it's a pretty infrequent occurrence!
We clearly should have asked if this has happened to you more than once before indulging in a conversation about it.
Originally by: Allaria Kriss
Remember too that the mission-runner has sole authority to determine the amount of salvage available to be 'stolen.' The mission-runner determines the rate that wrecks are generated (By killing NPCs), the time those wrecks are generated at (By when he does the mission), and the availability of good salvage (By salvaging on the go or having a friend in a salvager along). If the missioner is too lazy to bother with this, or unwilling or unable to do it, then someone who is willing to use Astrometrics to hunt your mission down is going to do it for you.
This part here is mostly hot air. I could argue about how long it takes or if the mission is blitzed or not, but this still misses the point entirely.
I will reiterate said point: 4 DAY OLD CHARACTERS CAN MAKE MILLIONS IN AN HOUR WITH NO RECOURSE.
If you think that this loop hole will not grow into a gaping chasm of lame, your a damn fool. It's only a matter of time before mission runners are overrun by a flock of wah-wahs.
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raylon
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Posted - 2008.05.09 17:16:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Sigul Siento
This endless stream of 4 day old people, who in here think they are new players?
I didnt say i thought they were new - they are obviously alts.
im pointing out the 4 days for multiple reasons - one of which is the lack of skill needed.
Another thing to mention is that many times, aside from perhaps 2 or 3 items - the loot and salvage values are close to equal (least for higher level missions).
they can take salvage (with no possible recourse) but everything else is different?
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raylon
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Posted - 2008.05.09 17:19:00 -
[8]
How is everyone missing the point that you can't do anything about this "ninja salvaging"?
I simply don't understand how anyone in a pvp game can side with the idea that theft can go unpunished? without consequence?
that's not pvp - thats stand there and watch your stuff get taken.
its not being a ninja - my gramma would do it as there is no risk (she is not a ninja, just for the record).
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raylon
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Posted - 2008.05.10 13:38:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro
I think that the game is more interesting when there are more career options, especially for newer players, and adding this extra degree of risk to the profession would be especially hard on them.
You think they should remain at zero risk?
Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro
Salvage usually makes a very small proportion of the rewards from a mission (after bounties, isk rewards, lp, loot & standings). It also takes a quite long time to gather it- proportional to the time it takes to run the mission- even in a dedicated ship.
This is simply wrong. Especially when your talking about rogue drones which have no bounty. I also find that I can salvage and loot a massive mission in a very short amount of time, and so can the ninja salvagers who are following me, one step behind, through the mission as im still fighting it.
Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro
As a result, the best strategy for maximising your isk/hour is to zoom through missions, dealing with only the necessary objectives, ignoring salvage and collecting only the most valuable pieces of loot. If your goal as a mission runner is to generate as much isk/hour as possible, it is irrational to complain about people salvaging in your wake.
Wrong again.
Try running the Worlds Collide L4 with Sansha / Angel and see what you get for salvage. (in excess of 14 million).
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raylon
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Posted - 2008.05.10 13:58:00 -
[10]
Veryez and others seem to understand the problem quite clearly. I have seen very little which would persuade me otherwise.
Allaria Kriss is right to invoke the fact that this will impact other areas, but i don't think that they are real obsticals to making a reasonable change to wreck ownership and whatnot.
There are also obviously technical hurdles which we can not see because we dont have access to the source code. It may be that adding a pointer to the owner within a wreck instance is a daunting task for CCP.
I am under the impression that this (ninja salvaging) within missions as it is being done now is an unforseen development and perhaps CCP is already considering a change (feel free to let us know).
I also want to again point out that I did make a suggestion as to a "possible" solution. This brainstorm could also be extended to cover tractoring among other things.
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raylon
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Posted - 2008.05.10 16:39:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Hamfast
Welcome to the Miners threat... "We get to steal your work and if you do anything about it we pop your expensive ship"...
Hamfasts' comment makes a critical point - at least the miners have an option of doing something about it, they have a valid course of action (as foolhardy as it may be hehe).
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raylon
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Posted - 2008.05.12 17:28:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Farrqua
I do recall a certain push for the right to agro can thieves. Yea that ended well. Instead of can thief forum whines you had a dramatic increase OMG they flipped my can and killed me!!
This will do the same thing, except in this case you will see massive forum rage rants on the part of the mission runners because they lost there precious CNR faction fitted rat mobile.
I don't see people coming into my mission to loot my can to start a pvp fight, so i do not see how this would be different?
It introduces a risk for the "ninja salvager", for which they currently have *none*
It would also at least let me know this is happening and give me a chance to do something.
This occured again the other day, and the guy managed to salvage all of my battleships for which i had no idea until i came back to salvage. an aggro counter would give me a heads up.
2 sansha battleships can yeild 4 armor plates and 4 melted capacitor - which is valued over the time bonus. I dont consider that trash.
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raylon
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Posted - 2008.05.12 18:01:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Farrqua
Pushing for changes without understanding the global impact to the general player base is not very wise.
But as long you get what you want to hell with everyone else, right?
I've considered the impact, i've explained my position and i've backed it up. I've also made suggestions as to possible solutions.
Attempting to spin this as my own greed backed only by "global change, mechanices - you dont get it" brings absolutly nothing to the table.
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raylon
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Posted - 2008.05.12 20:09:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Farrqua
Yep read you posts, and they basically are all the same line of thought. Very singular narrow prospective that does not go past your nose. You make statemnets about how much money you make and how it effects you.
You have not shown any thoughts of a global consiqueunce for your fellow eve players. Of course I guess since you play the game by your self pretty much who cares about everyone else, right?
what are these consequences, exactly? you've mentioned one - the can flipping parallel, which doesn't seem to hold much water.
you can take jabs at me all you like, but something of substance would be much more appreciated.
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