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Heterosexual rights = Homosexual rights?

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Devoras2 Amarr KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.07 09:45:00 - [1] Edited by: Devoras2 on 07/05/2008 09:50:36 Edited by: Devoras2 on 07/05/2008 09:49:39 In Norway goverment (Currently Labour Party, Neo-Communist Party and the Peasant Party) is about to pass a new Law of Marriage to Parliament, which will make the former partnership law between homosexuals obsolete this 11 of June. The new content of the law will give homosexuals equal rights as heterosexuals in the following points: Adoption. Homosexuals (couples) as heterosexuals (couples) has equal rights in the matter of adoption from both domestical children and those coming from abroad. Assisted conceivment. Lesbic couples have now the right to assisted conceivment on equal terms as heterosexual couples. Parenthood. The non-biological mother in the lesbic couple gains automatical rights of parenthood after birth by the use of assisted conceivment. The Church. The law opens for the religious community to have the right to marry lesbic/homosexual couples, but currently not duty. Now all in all i see the idealism in the new passing of law, but im very skeptical to this social experiment without more studies and empirical testing. Another thing I fear is a "religious war" and the further stigmatizing of homosexuals. But I wonder what you other people opinions is about this. edit: Why is L*sbian a censored word for??
Sqalevon Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.05.07 10:03:00 - [2] AFAIK that has been the case in the Netherlands for quite a while. Apart from parenthood of the non biological lesbic mother, not so sure on that. There hasn't been alot of negative news about the church not wanting to marry a couple, last time was maybe a few years ago, bit I think the couple just went to a different church in a different village.
Glarion Garnier Solar Wind Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service	Posted - 2008.05.07 10:07:00 - [3] Edited by: Glarion Garnier on 07/05/2008 10:15:22 I'm not expressing an argument about the laws towards rights to children. But most ppl on this planet have totally forgotten that gowerments are by the ppl for the ppl and not other way around. Even tho the word gowerment as a word is quite interesting as where it comes from (latin). Perhaps its time for new words that describes leadership that is chosen by people (not corporations) and social management system. The human leadership structure of this world needs to go towards humane unity. instead of capitalistic dictatorship _________________________________ -be vary of the men behind the curtain-
Benco97 Gallente Exchangable Properties	Posted - 2008.05.07 10:10:00 - [4] I think it's a good thing, the less they are treated like the are "something different" then the more people will learn that they are just the same, we're all people. I'm *, I have no problem telling you that, I've got nothing to hide in the matter and almost everyone I've met has no problem with it, the only problems arise when someone thinks it's wrong and "Sinful". Those people often have problems with MANY things though, not just homosexuals. I have nothing personal against such people though, I have my own religious beliefs and I understand how important they are so I don't go rubbing my sexuality in people's faces, you know? You mention testing, what sort of tests would you do? Originally by:** Kirjava This man speaks the truth, when he farts we count the length in seconds and make squillions buying winning lottery tickets.
Sqalevon Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.05.07 10:26:00 - [5] Originally by: Benco97 The only problems arise when someone thinks it's wrong and "Sinful". Those people often have problems with MANY things though, not just homosexuals. QFT
Devoras2 Amarr KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.07 10:39:00 - [6] Originally by: Benco97 You mention testing, what sort of tests would you do? Testing if over time children in homosexual couples has the same quality of life and the same good upbringing as they were in a straight couple. The annoyance of the law is it doesnt take the childs good and well being into consideration imo. Even the studies made on this issue are weakly based: 1. The few studies made is not representative for the whole group of homosexual persons. This is cause the studies is based on participants through organizations and other private connections. One of the studies concludes like this: " There are no way to tell the size of participants involved since we cant tell the percentage of those that heard about this study. The size of the targeted group (homosexuals) is unknown and what kind of characteristics they represent. The study cannot be considered representative" (Wyers -87) 2. Many of the studies doesnt analyze the effect of the targeted study group (homosexuals) and the control group (heterosexuals)on how they are different from each other besides the term -sexual. In many of the studies you find highly educated homosexuals and virtually non-existent lower educated ones. So is it the effect of education OR sexual preference? 3. Almost all of the studies involved are to small to find and target the small differences between study group and control group. The chance of wrongly concluding that there is "no difference to support otherwise" is around 70-80% when trying to measure a spesific ability. 4. Alot of the studies are focused on to find that there are no difference between homosexuals with children versus heterosexuals with children. The worse the studies are proceeded and executed, the higher the chance of a worse outcome. Yipeh KIA Mother Fecker!
Benco97 Gallente Exchangable Properties	Posted - 2008.05.07 10:54:00 - [7] Originally by: Devoras2 Testing if over time children in homosexual couples has the same quality of life and the same good upbringing as they were in a straight couple. The annoyance of the law is it doesnt take the childs good and well being into consideration imo. Even the studies made on this issue are weakly based: 1. The few studies made is not representative for the whole group of homosexual persons. This is cause the studies is based on participants through organizations and other private connections. One of the studies concludes like this: " There are no way to tell the size of participants involved since we cant tell the percentage of those that heard about this study. The size of the targeted group (homosexuals) is unknown and what kind of characteristics they represent. The study cannot be considered representative" (Wyers -87) 2. Many of the studies doesnt analyze the effect of the targeted study group (homosexuals) and the control group (heterosexuals)on how they are different from each other besides the term -sexual. In many of the studies you find highly educated homosexuals and virtually non-existent lower educated ones. So is it the effect of education OR sexual preference? 3. Almost all of the studies involved are to small to find and target the small differences between study group and control group. The chance of wrongly concluding that there is "no difference to support otherwise" is around 70-80% when trying to measure a spesific ability. 4. Alot of the studies are focused on to find that there are no difference between homosexuals with children versus heterosexuals with children. The worse the studies are proceeded and executed, the higher the chance of a worse outcome. I don't see how you could test a group of homosexuals to see how an adopted child's life would be, for example, heterosexual couples make mistakes too, Madeline McCann anyone? Still, you're right, tests should be done. It is my opinion however than any good testing will find no difference between the upbringing of a child in a homosexual couple's care and the upbringing of a child in a heterosexual couple's care (Assuming that both couples are of sound body and mind obviously, there are sick people out there irrespective of their sexual alignment) Originally by: Kirjava This man speaks the truth, when he farts we count the length in seconds and make squillions buying winning lottery tickets.
Devoras2 Amarr KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.07 11:05:00 - [8] Originally by: Benco97 I don't see how you could test a group of homosexuals to see how an adopted child's life would be (...) I have no issues with homosexual couples being good parents. Again my focus and attention goes towards the child`s best and well being. More troubling is the fact that the child doesn`t have a mother and a father to call their own, the issue of not having a male and a female role model in the family. Identity trouble and complications could arise in the child`s mind since he/she will perceive homosexual life as "normal" and "correct" hence leading to a disturbed upbringing. What about society who they live among, where children can say "my dad is..." or "my mum is.." where the child says " I dont have a dad/mum, I got two of the same" The poor thing will get bullied as a result in most cases. Next ask yourself, how is a child conceived? Is it through the same sexes or through two different ones? Here lies my moral dilemma on the case, on the note I would compare this to human cloning where Man plays God to achieve its will. Yipeh KIA Mother Fecker!
Twelve Jackals	Posted - 2008.05.07 12:10:00 - [9] Originally by: Devoras2 More troubling is the fact that the child doesn`t have a mother and a father to call their own, the issue of not having a male and a female role model in the family. Identity trouble and complications could arise in the child`s mind since he/she will perceive homosexual life as "normal" and "correct" hence leading to a disturbed upbringing. What if a parent dies at young age? Many children are left with only one parent due to deaths and the giant surge of divorces in the past decade or so. You seldom hear complaints about that..
Keta Min LEGI0N F.E.A.R Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.07 12:13:00 - [10] this is no more problematic than a standard "father and mother" family as that's not natural either. the small core family you know as normal emerged during the industrialization which was not that long ago. once the society stops treating it as something different the kids will most likely don't even notice that their family is somehow special.
annoing Amarr MisFunk Inc. Daisho Syndicate	Posted - 2008.05.07 13:14:00 - [11] Edited by: annoing on 07/05/2008 13:14:35 This is good news for G@Y rights. Equality for all MEANS regardless of race, colour, creed and sexuality. As for wether they make good parents, when did sexuality become a deciding factor in the ability to raise children? From what I see and read everyday, g@ys cant make any worse a job of it than straights. I shared a house with a g@y man for 2 years, he is my best friend and the person I can rely on in all situations to be honest and able. The godfather of my 3 children is another g@y friend (he 'married' his partner in a civil parnership last year with my youngest being 'bridesmaid') and my kids all adore him, so much so I get jealous sometimes of the obvious love they have for him. As for the church marrying couples, I must admit that in my small circle of g@y friends, none of them would want a church ceremony anyway. All in all, I can only hope that other European countries follow this course of action, including my own. Dwi Cymraig
ThisAlt IsUseless	Posted - 2008.05.07 13:31:00 - [12] Edited by: ThisAlt IsUseless on 07/05/2008 13:32:22 Originally by: "Wednesday, 20 July, 2005, 10:53 GMT 11:53 UK" http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4699411.stm
Antarus Lars	Posted - 2008.05.07 13:58:00 - [13] Fact A child with same s3x parents will get bullied though his childhood. Fact Putting your own desire to have a child above your childs happness during its upbringing is immoral. Fact Im in no way homophobic, just brutally honest.
Raymond Sterns Utopian Research I.E.L. The ENTITY.	Posted - 2008.05.07 14:38:00 - [14] Edited by: Raymond Sterns on 07/05/2008 14:39:02 No, things go wrong when people think giving other people rights will stop racism, sexism, and homophobia, It won't. Give them their rights, I think it will make their lifes easier, but people will not like them more just because they are equal under the law. _
goodby4u Logistic Technologies Incorporated	Posted - 2008.05.07 14:39:00 - [15] Originally by: Glarion Garnier Edited by: Glarion Garnier on 07/05/2008 10:15:22 I'm not expressing an argument about the laws towards rights to children. But most ppl on this planet have totally forgotten that gowerments are by the ppl for the ppl and not other way around. Even tho the word gowerment as a word is quite interesting as where it comes from (latin). Perhaps its time for new words that describes leadership that is chosen by people (not corporations) and social management system. The human leadership structure of this world needs to go towards humane unity. instead of capitalistic dictatorship A capitalistic democracy is probably the best type of government you possibly have, its soooo much better then either socialism or communism...But capitlistic dictatorship?May I ask what country has this system? As for *** rights, I dont care if they get married, but they shouldnt be able to adopt as that adds a whole bunch of problems for the child.
Xrak Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.05.07 14:43:00 - [16] Originally by: Antarus Lars Fact A child with same s3x parents will get bullied though his childhood. Fact Putting your own desire to have a child above your childs happness during its upbringing is immoral. Fact Im in no way homophobic, just brutally honest. Those aren't facts at all. Stop making up BS. Children get bullied for many reasons. Does this mean someone with a disablity shouldnt be allowed children just incase they get bullied because their parent has only 1 leg?
Keta Min LEGI0N F.E.A.R Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.07 15:00:00 - [17] protip: kids make fun of whoever cant stand being made fun of
Nomakai Delateriel Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2008.05.07 15:02:00 - [18] Originally by: Xrak Those aren't facts at all. Stop making up BS. Children get bullied for many reasons. Does this mean someone with a disablity shouldnt be allowed children just incase they get bullied because their parent has only 1 leg? QFT! [sarcasm] Kids get bullied for having glasses as well, so perhaps we should ban anyone with a genetic predisposition for poor eyesight from having children as well. Oh, and while we're at it lets also ban people with low status jobs from having kids, because their kids could be bullied for that too. In fact, lets ban everyone except WASPs with more than 30.000$ per year in disposable from having kids at all. That should solve everything. [/sarcasm] ______________________________________________ -You can never earn my respect, only lose it. It's given freely, and only grudgingly retracted when necessary.
Antarus Lars	Posted - 2008.05.07 15:03:00 - [19] A valid point, One which i have no answear for, but its totally ignoring the fact that the child will on average have a lower quality of life at least over his junior years due to his parents choices. And i dont care about either parent remotly in what im saying, im 100% refering to the childs well being. Something that ALOT of parents, straight or otherwise seem to be not doing. I personally dont have any problems with it, but i dont believe a child should be brought into it either.
Antarus Lars	Posted - 2008.05.07 15:10:00 - [20] Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel Originally by: Xrak Those aren't facts at all. Stop making up BS. Children get bullied for many reasons. Does this mean someone with a disablity shouldnt be allowed children just incase they get bullied because their parent has only 1 leg? QFT! [sarcasm] Kids get bullied for having glasses as well, so perhaps we should ban anyone with a genetic predisposition for poor eyesight from having children as well. Oh, and while we're at it lets also ban people with low status jobs from having kids, because their kids could be bullied for that too. In fact, lets ban everyone except WASPs with more than 30.000$ per year in disposable from having kids at all. That should solve everything. [/sarcasm] If your comparing the strain put on a child which is wearing glasses with the strain of having same s3x parents then you need to rethink. Are you parents ***? I actually at least know a few friends who have same s3x parents and tbh i can see first hand that its cause a whole manner of problems, not just the bullying. Its all good and well to look at it from an adults point of view & be "holier than tho", but in real life its vastly different.
Micheal Dietrich Caldari Cynical Cartel	Posted - 2008.05.07 15:20:00 - [21] Originally by: Twelve Jackals Originally by: Devoras2 More troubling is the fact that the child doesn`t have a mother and a father to call their own, the issue of not having a male and a female role model in the family. Identity trouble and complications could arise in the child`s mind since he/she will perceive homosexual life as "normal" and "correct" hence leading to a disturbed upbringing. What if a parent dies at young age? Many children are left with only one parent due to deaths and the giant surge of divorces in the past decade or so. You seldom hear complaints about that.. 1. In many cases the surviving parent may eventually get into a relationship again giving the child a stepparent (hopefully as a role model). 2. In divorces the child still has both parents. Unless one pushes the other too far in which case we revert back to 1. Personally speaking the only problem in divorce cases is that parents will start using the children in their bitter arguments. My parents have been divorced since 1991 and to this day they still try to slide in crude remarks and comments about each other to my brother n I. ____________________________________________ And yes I'll be gone soon.
Nomakai Delateriel Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2008.05.07 15:32:00 - [22] Originally by: Antarus Lars Are you parents *? No. But I've gone to school with a kid who lived with his bisexual mother and her lover. Wasn't a problem really, and apparently it had never been a problem. Now the kid with glasses I went to school with in grade 1-6 on the other hand. He had it tough. Same thing with a the girl with large teeth (damn people teased her). IMHO it's all about parenting. If a majority of the parents see * people as "the evil", kids will pick up on it. If nobody treats it as being strange at all and they don't look or act differently it's not a problem. ______________________________________________ -You can never earn my respect, only lose it. It's given freely, and only grudgingly retracted when necessary.
Sethra Levode Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.05.07 15:52:00 - [23] Edited by: Sethra Levode on 07/05/2008 15:56:17 Originally by: Devoras2 Again my focus and attention goes towards the child`s best and well being. More troubling is the fact that the child doesn`t have a mother and a father to call their own, the issue of not having a male and a female role model in the family. This had been happening for ages. Children of homosexual couples are not the only children that have single sex households. Some would argue that hell it is better that they have 2 parents wether or not they are both of the same sex. As for pure numbers, there are more females then males on the planet. Barring homosexulaity, if every women had a man then there would be women left over. Are they to be denied human touch and physical interaction, are they to be denied they opportunity to procreate? I would say no and since the answer would be no, then they should be allowed the same rights. Originally by: Antarus Lars Fact A child with same s3x parents will get bullied though his childhood. Fact Putting your own desire to have a child above your childs happness during its upbringing is immoral. Fact Im in no way homophobic, just brutally honest. 1) Children will bulley no matter what. It is inherent in nature for creatures to fight, banter, rough play, to creat some form of hierarchy within the group. *** parents are not needed to be picked on. Trust me on this one o super popular one. 2) Ones own religion telling one to not abbort a child when they know the child would not survive past infancy on their own is also selfish, but I do not hear the right crying out for legalized abortion. 3) Yes you are brutally honest. Slade Trillgon
Slade Trillgon Siorai Iontach Brotherhood of the Spider	Posted - 2008.05.07 15:58:00 - [24] Edited by: Slade Trillgon on 07/05/2008 15:59:28 Damn Alt Posts ^^^ Slade EDIT: I have straight parents. I was never ridiculed for anything they did. I was definately ridiculed for having buck teeth, glasses, and braces. *Slade laughs because the Ugly Duckling story is so true in his case.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.05.07 16:08:00 - [25] Gender issues are so last century. Man-woman, man-man, woman-woman, man-woman-woman, man-woman-man-woman, *******-woman and so on and so forth... who cares ? Let them adopt (if there's a kid "available"), if single moms can get artificially inseminated why not any other couples, as for marriage... I consider that too antiquated, I'd rather have legally binding "freeform" contracts that would grant (roughly) the same rights and obligations as a current "marriage" would. As for religion... who cares ? Atheism FTW. Any religious ceremony for "marriage" I'd be attending I'd regard as a sham anyway, an useless ancient custom. Be it somebody else's marriage or mine. Heck, I have to wonder, will I be able to keep a straight face at my own wedding in the Church ? I have my doubts. That is, if a priest would be silly enough to marry me and my girlfriend in the first place (no, I won't lie I'm a religious person for "her" sake, or the sake of appearance in face of our families). __ CSM candidates - quick reference cards Don't be a social moron, read and vote after you decide !
Kyanzes Amarr Utopian Research I.E.L. The ENTITY.	Posted - 2008.05.07 16:25:00 - [26] How could someone with distorted values raise children? I'm sorry but I for one cannot stand behind - - such people. I don't mind what they do until they start to raise children that will be part of a future society. There is a limit to tolerance. I mean come on... let's not give such people the chance to affect the minds of younglings. They already do have an effect on others, I say we draw a line that shall not be passed. Why would someone who has no inclination to breed want to have children anyways? They can basically do ANYTHING they want, but this line should not be crossed. Don't let them adopt children. --------------------------------------------- GET TO THE CHOPPA!!! The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
Keta Min LEGI0N F.E.A.R Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.07 16:35:00 - [27] Edited by: Keta Min on 07/05/2008 16:35:07 Originally by: Kyanzes How could someone with distorted values raise children? I'm sorry but I for one cannot stand behind - - such people. I don't mind what they do until they start to raise children that will be part of a future society. There is a limit to tolerance. I mean come on... let's not give such people the chance to affect the minds of younglings. They already do have an effect on others, I say we draw a line that shall not be passed. Why would someone who has no inclination to breed want to have children anyways? They can basically do ANYTHING they want, but this line should not be crossed. Don't let them adopt children. is that long version for "g@y parents will raise g@y kids as straight parents only raise straight kids obviously" ?
Benco97 Gallente Exchangable Properties	Posted - 2008.05.07 16:37:00 - [28] Originally by: Kyanzes How could someone with distorted values raise children? I'm sorry but I for one cannot stand behind - - such people. I don't mind what they do until they start to raise children that will be part of a future society. There is a limit to tolerance. I mean come on... let's not give such people the chance to affect the minds of younglings. They already do have an effect on others, I say we draw a line that shall not be passed. Why would someone who has no inclination to breed want to have children anyways? They can basically do ANYTHING they want, but this line should not be crossed. Don't let them adopt children. You have just stated that I would not make a good parent and SHOULDN'T BE ALLOWED to become a parent despite the fact that you do not know me or anything about me, well done. If you're claiming that * parents who adopt will turn the child * then surely you should argue that Christian parents will turn the child Christian? HELL, Christian parents would probably FORCE Christianity on the child, nothing is said about that is there. Originally by: Kirjava This man speaks the truth, when he farts we count the length in seconds and make squillions buying winning lottery tickets.
Jayna Keria Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.05.07 16:45:00 - [29] I severely doubt the majority of people saying "All I care about is the child's well-being" really do give a crap.
annoing Amarr MisFunk Inc. Daisho Syndicate	Posted - 2008.05.07 16:49:00 - [30] Edited by: annoing on 07/05/2008 16:52:09 Sorry, you seem to have left your Sw@stika by the door as you left the room. However, just to amuse myself I shall transpose your 'argument' to something else: Originally by: Kyanzes How could someone with distorted values raise children I often ask myself that too. The church has alot to answer for. Quote: There is a limit to tolerance. So true, just ask any of the organised Abrahamic religions ... nothing like a dose of Islam, Christianity or Judaism to teach tolerance is there? After all, with the tolerance taught by the big 3 we all live happy well rounded lives, in peace with our neighbours and with full equality regardless of race, colour and creed. Quote: I mean come on... let's not give such people the chance to affect the minds of younglings. They already do have an effect on others, I say we draw a line that shall not be passed. I refer you to the answer I gave a few moments ago Quote: They can basically do ANYTHING they want, but this line should not be crossed. Don't let them adopt children. Yes, stop them NOW, after all, would you want YOUR child adopted into a fascist right-wing religious household? There is a limit to tolernece and you crossed it. Should I salute your uniform now or save it till later? Yes, you may get upset that I liken your argument to F@scism and no I dont care if you are upset. Stupidity like yours is a special kind and should be treated with medicine as soon as possible Dwi Cymraig

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