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Fairhand
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
3
   |
Posted - 2012.03.04 10:47:00 -
[1] - Quote
I remember the old generalisation of "Blasters for PvP and Rails for PvE" but I was wondering what is the prevailing opinion on the feasibility of using Blasters in solo PvE missions now they have been rebalanced?
I know that some missions with Stasis Towers will be a pain, as well as those with Web/Scram Frigates as the Triggers for spawns. Are there any other issues I will have to watch out for?
At the moment I am flying T1 Gallente hulls (I have the gun boat skills to level 4). My fitting skills are fair (most to level 4 with the key skills to 5) and my Gunnery skills are *just* under T2 as I have the last few level 5 skills to finish off. I can fit T2 armour tank.
I have been used to flying the drone boats up to Dominix (T2 light/medium drones, T1 heavy or sentry) but wonder if Blasters will be feasible now or are Rails still advised.
Thanks in advance.
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
901
|
Posted - 2012.03.04 11:04:00 -
[2] - Quote
I'd say it almost certainly still holds true. Though apparently Blaster Vindis work great for Incursions.
-Liang
Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?)
Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com
PVP Videos: http://vimeo.com/user9887127
Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Fairhand
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
3
|
Posted - 2012.03.04 11:55:00 -
[3] - Quote
So, despite the rebalance, is it still for the same old reasons?
Having to tank the entire group while you burn to closing distance, ships *still* getting under the tracking and wrecks all over the place because of attempting to herd cats who are only slightly slower than you and who insist on orbiting at range while you chase your selected victim?
Just to clarify, I am speaking about PvE Missions here, not Incursions or Ratting. |
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
344
|
Posted - 2012.03.04 11:58:00 -
[4] - Quote
It still holds, but less rigidly. Large neutrons already worked under the right circumstances (Mega on Damsel and things like that). Large neutrons are now easier to fit, so your fitting options for those situations have increased. I've been running a very niche injected Astarte on specific missions and it works as well. Blaster fits still absolutely require a MWD.
The flip side of this is that rails are actually quite a bit better now as well. 425s are considerably easier to fit and Javelin (which, yes, is a bit pricey) is downright good -- especially on tracking-bonused hulls. |
Exploited Engineer
Creatively Applied Violence Inc.
24
|
Posted - 2012.03.04 12:37:00 -
[5] - Quote
Fairhand wrote:I remember the old generalisation of "Blasters for PvP and Rails for PvE" but I was wondering what is the prevailing opinion on the feasibility of using Blasters in solo PvE missions now they have been rebalanced?
Their range is still abysmal, which means that while they might be fun for some missions (Damsel?), they're still no good for the vast majority.
1000 dps may sound nice, but if you spend 50% of your time not shooting (since your target is out of range), you're only doing 500 dps. |
Darthewok
Perkone
Caldari State
26
|
Posted - 2012.03.04 12:53:00 -
[6] - Quote
No one has found good tracking enhancer/ tracking computer fits to enhance Null range?
13+18 range for null on Neutron Blaster Cannon II could be boosted to 16+29 with 2 Tracking Enhancers or Tracking Computers(Optimal Range script).
CAVEAT RICHARDUS VOLVERE - YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0 |
Buzzmong
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
147
|
Posted - 2012.03.04 13:51:00 -
[7] - Quote
Oi, Fairhand!
The advice given on corp chat not good enough for you eh?  |
Fairhand
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
3
|
Posted - 2012.03.04 14:53:00 -
[8] - Quote
 Busted!
The problem was that with time to think, I kept coming up with horrible scenarios as to why a Blaster boat would not work in a mission and I had a crisis of confidence I suppose. |
Baneken
Hyvat Pahat ja Eric
The Polaris Syndicate
75
|
Posted - 2012.03.04 15:39:00 -
[9] - Quote
Problem with large blasters in PvE was and still is that beyond +30km you might as well use rails as far as damage projection is concerned even if you could hit further with lead which of c. makes blasters useless when you hit the same with rails and antimatter.
Only thing where blasters work is angels but that's because angels obviously have red army field manual from WW2 as tactical reading. |
YuuKnow
148
|
Posted - 2012.03.04 15:56:00 -
[10] - Quote
Baneken wrote:Problem with large blasters in PvE was and still is that beyond +30km you might as well use rails as far as damage projection is concerned even if you could hit further with lead which of c. makes blasters useless when you hit the same with rails and antimatter.
I agree. The problem with travel time still exist. Once you close on one target, the others will fan to the 4 winds and you'll waste time chasing. Faster to just have longer range guns. |
Darthewok
Perkone
Caldari State
27
|
Posted - 2012.03.04 18:09:00 -
[11] - Quote
Blasters really suck cap too. Short range, high fitting requirements, cap hungry, so many drawbacks.
CAVEAT RICHARDUS VOLVERE - YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0 |
Liam Mirren
305
|
Posted - 2012.03.04 18:13:00 -
[12] - Quote
Other than specific missions you're simply better off with rails.
Excellence is not a skill, it's an attitude.
My guides: http://mirren.freeforums.org |
OfBalance
Caldari State
98
|
Posted - 2012.03.04 18:15:00 -
[13] - Quote
Darthewok wrote:Blasters really suck cap too. Short range, high fitting requirements, cap hungry, so many drawbacks.
They suck less cap than equivalent railguns and are easier to fit than said railguns. :themoreyouknow: |
Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
901
|
Posted - 2012.03.04 18:38:00 -
[14] - Quote
Fairhand wrote:So, despite the rebalance, is it still for the same old reasons?
Its a bit odd to say "despite the rebalance" when the rebalance was geared towards PVP (and was successful). At any rate, I'm not sure how they could change blasters to be viable in general PVE without destroying the flavor or making them OP as hell in PVP.
-Liang
Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?)
Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com
PVP Videos: http://vimeo.com/user9887127
Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Darthewok
Perkone
Caldari State
27
|
Posted - 2012.03.04 19:46:00 -
[15] - Quote
OfBalance wrote:Darthewok wrote:Blasters really suck cap too. Short range, high fitting requirements, cap hungry, so many drawbacks. They suck less cap than equivalent railguns and are easier to fit than said railguns. :themoreyouknow:
Correct.
Amend to:
The short range of blasters requires high usage of MWD/AB to power into range.
The combined usage of MWD and blasters (which are still quite cap intensive) really nukes that capacitor far more than rails, where only occasional pulsing of the prop mod (or no prop mod) is required.
CAVEAT RICHARDUS VOLVERE - YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0 |
OfBalance
Caldari State
99
|
Posted - 2012.03.04 20:12:00 -
[16] - Quote
Darthewok wrote:OfBalance wrote:Darthewok wrote:Blasters really suck cap too. Short range, high fitting requirements, cap hungry, so many drawbacks. They suck less cap than equivalent railguns and are easier to fit than said railguns. :themoreyouknow: Correct. Amend to: The short range of blasters requires high usage of MWD/AB to power into range. The combined usage of MWD and blasters (which are still quite cap intensive) really nukes that capacitor far more than rails, where only occasional pulsing of the prop mod (or no prop mod) is required.
Oh of course, that doesn't make them any more practical outside some niche situations, but I just wanted to note they are not terrible cap heavy or hard to fit unless you're comparing them to autocannons.  |
Darthewok
Perkone
Caldari State
27
|
Posted - 2012.03.04 20:23:00 -
[17] - Quote
OfBalance wrote:Oh of course, that doesn't make them any more practical outside some niche situations, but I just wanted to note they are not terrible cap heavy or hard to fit unless you're comparing them to autocannons.
No argument whatsoever and that was a good clarification.
I like rails quite a bit now actually.
CAVEAT RICHARDUS VOLVERE - YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0 |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings
Situation: Normal
164
|
Posted - 2012.03.04 21:03:00 -
[18] - Quote
Blaster proteus isn't terribly efficient but it can be lots of fun. |
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
40
|
Posted - 2012.03.04 22:13:00 -
[19] - Quote
This really has a lot of factors.
There are missions where spawn ranges mean that large blasters can be more effective in regards to battleships but for most missions rails would still be preferred
.
Things change a little with medium guns, medium rails can still be lacking in range and blasters can be used effectively on a Proteus against Kin/Therm Enemies. In these missions not only is the enemy weak to the damage type but the natural resists of the proteus mean that the ship can be max gank min tank, plus it can travel at 1600m/s.
When I mission I normally have a few ships on standby a Sleip for angels (only trained T2 guns up to medium in minmatar), a Rail Hype for missions with stasis towers like Surprise Surprise and the Blaster Proteus for all Serpentis missions.
My Proteus is a cap boosting (Rarely needed), microwarpdrive fit with two tracking enhancers and a two slot tank, the rest is pretty standard.
If you want heavily tanked cap stable ships with as little change to fits between misisons as possible, then I would not advise using Blasters.
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Dyniss
Argent Uprising
2
|
Posted - 2012.03.05 09:45:00 -
[20] - Quote
I use blasters in missions no problem. My navy domi can easily hit out to 55km with null and null is better then javelin for dmg. Also I keep my alt in missions with me in a noctis with 2 tracking links with this I have about 60km range with blasters or 0.1 tracking which is amazing for a bs and if I loaded up void I can shoot out to almost 30km or have that sweet tracking bonus |
Darthewok
Perkone
Caldari State
27
|
Posted - 2012.03.05 11:42:00 -
[21] - Quote
Dyniss wrote:My navy domi can easily hit out to 55km with null and null is better then javelin for dmg.
Very nice. Null + Tracking computer Sentry Navy Domi sounds sccchmmexxyyyy.
CAVEAT RICHARDUS VOLVERE - YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0 |
vorneus
Hub2
60
|
Posted - 2012.03.05 13:28:00 -
[22] - Quote
Darthewok wrote:Dyniss wrote:My navy domi can easily hit out to 55km with null and null is better then javelin for dmg. Very nice. Null + Tracking computer Sentry Navy Domi sounds sccchmmexxyyyy.
I've tried to EFT this and just end up with a horrifically bad fit that in no way "easily hits out to 55km".
It just about hits out to 55km with Neutrons, Null and 3 optimal range scripted tracking computers, and that's deep in falloff. Any further optimal range mods result in negligible returns.
Could you post your fit please Darthewok? I imagine that it's far more effective to use rails with antimatter for anything beyond 30km, but I'm happy to be corrected.
-Ed |
Darthewok
Perkone
Caldari State
27
|
Posted - 2012.03.05 14:44:00 -
[23] - Quote
Tis Dyniss' fit not mine. I would love to see it too..
CAVEAT RICHARDUS VOLVERE - YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0 |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
238
|
Posted - 2012.03.05 14:58:00 -
[24] - Quote
Not sure about his fit, but I did have quite a laugh one-shotting moving frig rats @ 40-45km with half of the Talos's Neutrons, so 2 frigs / cycle. 3xTE II in the lows, with Null.
I didn't really know that blasters can even reach that far. |
RougeOperator
Autocannons Anonymous
Late Night Alliance
163
|
Posted - 2012.03.05 17:48:00 -
[25] - Quote
Rokh with tech2 neutrons 3 tracking enhancers 2 mag stabs with skills at 5
Range with null
27 opt - 34 falloff
636 dps no drones
You will have a massive tank
Seems pretty good for most level 4 missions.
But a 425 Rail fit with 425s 3 mag stabs and 2 TE
Range with Jav
35 opt - 49 falloff
617 dps no drones.
Most missions a rail fit is going to be better. And a rail mega is better then blaster mega for most any mission.
Blasters for PvP rails for PvE
Sure you might use blaster against angels. Or rails in sniper fleets. But for the most part one is better for PvP the other for PvE. |
Fairhand
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
3
|
Posted - 2012.03.05 18:16:00 -
[26] - Quote
Thanks for all the comments in this discussion. I appreciate that folks have explained the technical uses and issues as well as the few occasions when Blasters could be suited for PvE work.
I am in the process of fitting out a Navy Mega with 425s and am happy that I am not missing something important about blaster use.
Cheers. |
MeBiatch
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
185
|
Posted - 2012.03.05 18:30:00 -
[27] - Quote
honestly i would still use 350's on the domi... |
RougeOperator
Autocannons Anonymous
Late Night Alliance
163
|
Posted - 2012.03.05 19:11:00 -
[28] - Quote
Fairhand wrote:Thanks for all the comments in this discussion. I appreciate that folks have explained the technical uses and issues as well as the few occasions when Blasters could be suited for PvE work.
I am in the process of fitting out a Navy Mega with 425s and am happy that I am not missing something important about blaster use.
Cheers.
Rail Kronos is a solid ship and not a joke now. And easy to get Cap stable with just two cap recharger mods and tank most any mission on just one large rep.
761 DPS using caldari anti, before drone dps. Three mag stabs and the last 4 lows for active tank.
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Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
346
|
Posted - 2012.03.05 20:31:00 -
[29] - Quote
Darthewok wrote:Tis Dyniss' fit not mine. I would love to see it too..
Edit: He did mention using a ganglink. That's probably how he can push that 30km large rails vs blasters threshold out further.
It wasn't a gang link. It was dual tracking links which, when scripted for range along with two TCs scripted for range, will indeed give 19+36 with neutrons and null. I don't do anything along these lines, but if I were to throw a fit together it might look like this (except that this actually has too much cap on it tbh):
[Dominix Navy Issue, blaster mishin]
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Imperial Navy Large Armor Repairer
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II
Medium Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 400
Medium Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 400
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L
Drone Link Augmentor II
Large Sentry Damage Augmentor II
[empty rig slot]
[empty rig slot]
Garde II x5 |
Nnam Pir
2
|
Posted - 2012.03.05 21:24:00 -
[30] - Quote
I use a full rack of Neutron Blasters (grouped into four groups of two guns) on my Catalyst along with Rigs/Mods to further boost my Falloff, and I only shoot Antimatter shells. The range gets very respectable considering my targets are almost always Frigs and I can hardly keep locking more targets fast enough to keep up with the killing speed. With Blasters its all about the Falloff, and the Catalyst is just amazing for that.
Of course this applies to level 1 and 2 missions (getting that Caldari standing raised), and I use an Afterburner II instead of a MWD.
I was also using a Blaster Domi, but that doesn't work as well for me yet considering my skills for Large Turrets compared to Small, plus the lack of a ship bonus to Falloff (or gun range in gereral with a Domi) so I ended up switching to a long-range Drones fit with just two Rails at to aggro everything with. I was very happy that my Large Blaster Turrets were able to keep up with and hit the Cruisers in level 3s, though. |
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