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hired goon
Legio Prima Victrix Imperius Legio Victrix
52
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Posted - 2012.03.04 13:45:00 -
[1] - Quote
Eve is dying. I know we've all heard it before, but necessarily, it has to. This is because character progression in the game trundles forward at a set pace for everyone - meaning that eventually everyone will be able to fly every ship, and unless the number of newbies joining the game each period of time increases rather than remains constant, the "pyramid" of eve where in a minority are highly skilled and therefore remain "special" will reverse. In fact we are seeing this now, with many people able to fly tech 3 ships and even super-capitals.
This would not be so bad, had monetary inflation not taken place in addition to skillpoint inflation. While the latter is essentially inevitable, the former is preventable and in fact - I would argue - has been encouraged by short-sighted and ill-considered decisions by CCP. Of course I am referring to the ability of most players to afford top-tier marauders and strategic cruisers. And when I say 'most players' I am not referring to nullsec or wormhole players, who have dared the dangers of Eve to acquire the shinyest riches. I refer to the zero-risk, high-sec mission runner.
When I started playing Eve back in 1998, there were four classes of ship - frigate, cruiser, battleship and industrial. If you were a cool guy, you had a top-tier frigate. I once encountered a guy in a cruiser, and pissed my pants. There were rumours that a few of the biggest corporations had a battleship each that they would commit in only the most dire of situations. Fast forward to today - if you fly a battleship you are a laughing stock. Eve holds no wonder, no goal. Newbies who train skills at six-times the speed that we did, complain (rightly) that everyone but them is in a billion-isk ship, and it seems unreasonably far away. Everyone has reached the end-game.
Perhaps this wouldn't be so bad if it was just high-risk players who had access to such equipment. But level 4 missions run by zero-risk NPC-corpers have now also provided the end game. Far from the stepping-stone they were initially envisaged as by CCP, they have become the sole face of Eve for many; a sad lot whose sole Eve experience is logging in, accepting a mission they have already run a thousand times, then completing it using the same mundane routine. I doubt many of these guys even have to look at the screen while they do it. If I was them, I wouldn't even want to. Placing these in hi-sec was a mistake by CCP (one they later acknowledged iirc) so it came as a surprise to myself when "incursions" were introduced in addition - providing a huge amount more cash for the same non-existent risk.
So Eve is dying, slowly. Not through a big controversial change introduced to the game - some Sony-Online-Entertainment-Star-Wars-Galaxies-esque "New Game Experience" game-assassination that CCP seem in perpetual fear of - but through the opposite: idleness and stagnation.
There are of course a few remedies that come to mind. Move the end game - a technique referred to as the "carrot" - where by additional ships are introduced at the high end that are more powerful and expensive than anything else currently in the game. This would "push" the other ships of the game downwards, giving high-skilled age-old characters something new to aim for while adding another goal for those approaching the end game. A good idea in theory, but what of the effort? One ship would of course not be enough; more likely we will require an entire new line of ships. In addition it would have to be a magnitude of ships all introduced at once so that players do not feel they are perpetually "at" the end game, but can feel comfortable knowing they are on but a stepping stone to a greater goal. These ships must also be a fair distance away; it is fair to say many people are already set to "springboard" onto any tech-3 battleships/tech-2 capitals that appear in only about a week. This will all require a huge art effort as the new ships are designed, a huge rebalancing, Q&A, storytelling, and playtesting effort - and of course promises a whole raft of additional bugs. All while making new players feel even more alienated as they join only to realize the top ships could be two years away. I would argue this would not encourage new players into Eve.
Another remedy would be to use the "stick" and attempt to "revert" by reversing inflation. This would prove highly unpopular by the mindless masses of high-sec mission runners, who of course, cannot stand the idea of their non-existent internet space ships being prized from their skinny, quick-moving fingers. Of course I am referring to the removal of isk-generating faucets from high-sec, perhaps down to level-3 missions. This would obviously prove highly controversial, as I have already seen in my previous thread, in which NPC-corp mission runners react aggressively to an idea I put forward for discussion, in the hope of increasing the quality of Eve. It is true that these NPC high-seccers have lost all sense of responsibility and judgement - married so closely to the idea of making huge amounts of virtual money that the notion that Eve is a "game" in which players should have "fun" seems exotic. They will complain there is no challenge yet race towards the goal of not being challenged. Similarly to those children who will purchase a new game then immediately use cheats; completing the game in an instant before complaining it was boring. They cannot take responsibility for themselves and therefore muse be "rescued" from themselves by a game developer who must know when to abandon their normally laudible laissez-faire approach. |
hired goon
Legio Prima Victrix Imperius Legio Victrix
52
|
Posted - 2012.03.04 13:46:00 -
[2] - Quote
These mission runners have all but forgotten that at one time, level 4 missions didn't even exist; now simply expecting that amount of income as a basic right and entitlement. They will then complain that they have reached the end game - blaming CCP for the lack of new content and the vacancy of that special feeling of "wonder" we all receive when start Eve for the first time and see the possibilities stretched out before us. This type of player cannot take responsibility for himself - and though understands the problem with hyper-inflation and hitting the end game - only wishes a remedy in the form of more and better stuff for him to play with, forever. This is not a problem particular to the high-sec mission runner however, I find it in many of us, especially the newbies that join Eve and immediately lament they will not be flying a titan at the end of the week; instead of forming a group with like-minded newbies and experiencing the game together from the start - enjoying it as it unfolds as many of us did. I believe we should each take responsibility for our own Eve experience, not blame others or CCP for it.
I find this sense of wonder and exploration is central to Eve, and many times find myself pining for the days of old, when finding Eve for the first time. The wonder of being a newbie in a frigate mining Omber in Sobeseki. It is why I felt the need to make this thread last week exploring the idea of resetting Eve. See for yourself the animosity in the replies.
From that day until this, I fight for responsibility in Eve. Responsibility from each of us as players to tolerate a re-shuffle of in-game value. Also from CCP who must take control of the game before it slowly stagnates itself to death; and who must not be frightened by absurd threats of multi-account rage-quitting from entitled high-seccers whose life revolves around how quickly they can tractor-beam and salvage all the wrecks of a dead space area. This is an impassioned plea for reason and responsibility from us, the Eve-loving player base.
Let's bring back the magic of Eve. |
Paragon Renegade
Wyvern Operations
328
|
Posted - 2012.03.04 13:54:00 -
[3] - Quote
Quality thread
Not even joking, that was a piece of art The pie is a tautology |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
5220
|
Posted - 2012.03.04 13:55:00 -
[4] - Quote
GǪso more of a vl;dr?
Aside from the lol about an end-game, what do you propose? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Orion GUardian
120
|
Posted - 2012.03.04 14:02:00 -
[5] - Quote
Well somehow I can relate to you.
But resetting Eve won't fix anything. I know what I can do now and going back to square one would be....anticlimatic though most likely fun for a while ;)
Well Pochelympe in 2004 THAT was a time... |
hired goon
Legio Prima Victrix Imperius Legio Victrix
57
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Posted - 2012.03.04 14:34:00 -
[6] - Quote
Just as a disclaimer; I no longer believe Eve should be reset. But to answer your question Tippia, my solution would be "the stick" method as outlined above. I believe CCP should take control and ignore the ragequitters - they will either be back soon or not quit at all.
And not as many of them pay for 40 accounts as it would appear. |
Dyvim Slorm
MNU Operations New Eden's Industrial Alliance
8
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Posted - 2012.03.04 14:51:00 -
[7] - Quote
I started Eve in 2003 and certainly agree with you over the sense of wonder which was a strong part of the game back then.
I also agree over the amount of ISK that can be made in highsec, itGÇÖs been far too high for a long time.
However I think we need to look at the game as a whole as things are very different now to when I first started mostly in a political sense. In 2003 not only was ISK much harder to come by but with far fewer players GÇ£spaceGÇ¥ was not crowded as it is today. Additionally it was much easier for small to medium sized corps to set up in lowsec and nullsec as Alliance influence was much less then.
Unfortunately there no real value in going to lowsec (except for pvp) itGÇÖs part of the game that has been neglected over the years. Compared to the amount of ISK that can be generated in highsec, lowsec is not a good business proposition.
On balance I donGÇÖt see skill points as the real problem but inflation is certainly an issue. |
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
777
|
Posted - 2012.03.04 15:09:00 -
[8] - Quote
Here are some random thought's on how to kick-start the game again. Reduce inflation and make things generally more interesting. I won't bother with the explanations behind why I say them. You'll either see it or not.
-Remove PLEX. Go back to GTC only. And for game time only.
-Lock characters to the acct that created them.
-Remove low sec. 0.3 and below becomes lawless. 0.4 and above become lawful.
-No need to move level 4s. Just redesign them so that you need to work at them. Make them random and dynamic. No reading a guide setting up your ship and alt/ tabbing out for the mission.
-Add some real ISK sinks to the game. Not the rinky dink stuff in there today.
-Suicide ganks cost you your pod.
-Remove any form of insurance.
-Mining is the only way to acquire minerals.
-Wrecks drop salvage only.
-Invention includes meta items.
-JFs disappear and possibly cynos. Make the universe big again.
That's enough for now, I think.
Mr Epeen Me too!-á I ate one sour, too! |
Plyn
Random Jedi Industries KRYSIS.
43
|
Posted - 2012.03.04 15:27:00 -
[9] - Quote
I agree with many of your points. Monetary inflation is a big problem for the game. However, I think skillpoint inflation is less of a problem than many people think.
It's not just about getting into the biggest shiny. I am a carrier pilot, gallente carrier 5. There isn't much I could do to improve my carrier. However, my rush to this ship left me lacking in versatility. Being able to fly every gallente ship in the game (barring the erebus, which I am honestly not that interested in) leaves me out of 99% of fleet doctrines.
So now that I have reached what most people consider to be the "end game", I find myself turning back to pick up minny and amarr cruiser 5, because my oneiros isn't very desirable as a logi. Caldari cruiser 5, because everyone wants a falcon over my arazu. I need to train up to t2 weapons for hurricanes and drakes, and there's a lot more to tack on to the list, but you get the idea.
Sure, lots of people who haven't taken extended breaks as I have may have already reached all these goals, but their versatility is paying off big time. I agree new stuff to work towards should be added, though, to give them stuff to look forward to.
I also think the 2 year training time to get into the biggest shiny isn't as much a turn off as you would think. Many people, like myself, are turned off of games where you reach the 'end game' in the first two months of playing. For me, the idea that even with all the time I've put into the game there are still a lot more things to look forward to is a good thing.
Also, don't remove missions from highsec, people who play there actually do contribute a lot to the game, even if you don't directly realize it. There should just be mechanisms that force players to balance their isk generation. Highsec missions could probably benefit from switching to a system more like FW, where the main reward is LP with a still decent ISK kicker. This would encourage more marketeering, as well as make pilots think about where they are missioning and whether they are diluting their LP store worth. Come2Nullsec |
Rico Minali
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
329
|
Posted - 2012.03.04 15:31:00 -
[10] - Quote
The real problem (as sort of outlined by Mr Epeen) is that Eve is too small. Some space is too crowded and some is deserted, this isnt to do with size exactly but the ability to control and dominate space that you dont even use, space that is to all purposes abandoned.
Hisec is too easy to make huge amounts of isk with little to no risk, lowsec has absolutely zero reason to live there and in nullsec the powerblocs control space too easily that they dont even use.
A few possibilites are: Add more space, more of everything escept maybe lowsec since it serves little to no purpose. Add alot of new nullsec both sov and npc.
Add some 'islands' of nullsec that arnt reachable by cyno from other null or lowsec.
Add different kinds of space (and not wormholes) lowsec where local is jammed by pirate npc overlords, nullsec with hostile space, such as corrosive gas clouds and so on, theer are huge amounts of options to recreate the wonder and awe that is felt at first.
Reduce power projection, most importantly Supers ability to move huge fleets over long distances very easily.
Create ALOT of new ships and module types, th eoptions need to be larger in what to fly.
@ OP, Eve isnt about what ships you can fly, it is about building empires, having wars and conquest basically, it doesnt even matter what ships are fotm, when you get to 100m sp, train another character on your account, it really isnt teh issue. Eve isnt about what ships you have in your hangar, its about what you do with your ships and low sp guys can take down high sp guys if they do it right, it isnt the problem.
The problem is that there isnt enough diversity, people doing different things in different places. Trust me, I almost know what I'm doing. |
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Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
1357
|
Posted - 2012.03.04 15:38:00 -
[11] - Quote
worth the time.
Also fun is not equal to usefulness.
To add being part of an conflict got some strange feeling attached, doing mundane repetitive action is boring for many, me included.. MMO as an genre starts with others around and forming some form of alliance, getting your hands into someone elses pie, if that is the right expression. |
Velicitia
Open Designs
722
|
Posted - 2012.03.04 15:39:00 -
[12] - Quote
What they don't need is new ships (yet, anyway, unless they're specific to deepspace). What they need is something that takes a ****-ton of time to be able to get to/exploit/hold.
There have been ideas of "deepspace" and other k-space systems/pockets where the ONLY way in (initially) is a wormhole. Some of these sound like good ideas ... but we all know it'll quickly get eaten up by the current powerblocks...
so, we need a BUNCH of things to happen all at once to fix this.
1. something (anything) to make it harder to hold space in current null (no idea what this would be ... sorry guys) 2. something (anything) to make the people in hisec want to venture into the black. new corp/pos mechanics, smallholding, all that stuff CCP has been talking about. 3. new aggression mechanics in hisec (hell, even make more of it lowsec ... maybe the Broker infiltrated CONCORD or the Incursions have finally stretched them too thin) 4. "Incentives" to working with those PvP guys next door (if you're a miner), or working with those Industrialists (if you're a PvPer) -- i.e. let the market keep going up .. (unless it gets to a point where prices are just silly). I mean, just looking at a Dominix for example, its mineral baseprice is about 69 million ISK (using pre-tyrannis prices of 2/8/32/128/512/2048/8192 for trit/pye/mex/iso/nox/zyd/mega). Currently they're going for just shy of that on average (about 65-67m ... though there are some stupid sell orders for 100m or more that're breaking it) -- though granted the mineral prices aren't base (e.g. trit is 4+ ISK, but Zydrine is less than 1k)
|
YuuKnow
147
|
Posted - 2012.03.04 15:40:00 -
[13] - Quote
hired goon wrote:When I started playing Eve back in 1998, there were four classes of ship - frigate, cruiser, battleship and industrial
Huh?..Eve was introduced in 2003...
|
Nick Bison
Bison Industrial Inc Thundering Herd
14
|
Posted - 2012.03.04 15:49:00 -
[14] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote: Edited for length ... Mr Epeen
Mr Epeen has some very good thoughts here. What's your thoughts to adding removal (or limitations) on Jump Bridges to help make Eve big again?
|
Cipher Jones
341
|
Posted - 2012.03.04 15:52:00 -
[15] - Quote
Hey OP, get off your lazy ass and kill some ******* mission runners if its a problem.
And you did not take time into consideration either. If an item costs money, and you can make money, eventually you can buy the item. You can make money in hisec from industry, trading, plexing and scamming all on the level of mission running or greater, and also Incursions.
Also, posting in another
Eve is dying thread Missions are killing Eve thread I can present a fallacy with my 12th grade writing level and impress the masses thread
04:25:37 Notify Cipher Jones, criminals are not welcome here. Leave now or be destroyed. |
Karn Dulake
Souls Must Be Trampled The.Alliance
400
|
Posted - 2012.03.04 15:58:00 -
[16] - Quote
This is all so true its embarrassing.
I just mission all day and when im not doing that im running Incursions. I have so much isk that i dont know what to do with it.
I have everything that i can fly. 5 Clones with a different set of Pirate implants on each one Isk to replace any losses a dozen times over. And of course no risk whatsoever.
Problem? I dont normally troll, but when i do i do it on General Discussion. |
Rico Minali
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
329
|
Posted - 2012.03.04 16:21:00 -
[17] - Quote
Nick Bison wrote:Mr Epeen wrote: Edited for length ... Mr Epeen Mr Epeen has some very good thoughts here. What's your thoughts to adding removal (or limitations) on Jump Bridges to help make Eve big again?
Read teh other threads about JBs, they arnt the problem, all they do is allow an alliance to move quickly (and at quite some cost) through its own space. The problem is force projection using cynos and capitals/supers, teh ability to launch an entire fleet of BSs through a titan bridge into enemy territory and leave you titan nice and safe at home.
Removing JBs wont make Eve bigger, just more boring. Trust me, I almost know what I'm doing. |
baltec1
757
|
Posted - 2012.03.04 16:27:00 -
[18] - Quote
As far as MMOs go EVE is the best seeing how I have been playing 6+ years and I'm still having fun trying out new things. We do have problems with isk and risk at the moment though in high/low sec. |
Taiwanistan
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
184
|
Posted - 2012.03.04 16:28:00 -
[19] - Quote
too many dumb scrubs grinding only for their plexes, for no other goddamn reason, no goal in-game to hell with it, nerf every isk faucet, if it ticks in your wallet paid by concord nerf it, if it did not come from transactions with other players nerf it nerf it all, null sec anomalies, incursions, missions all of it nerf it by half it's austerity time foos we's all greek now!
wis: a roman orgy of all-you-can-eat social /dance o7m8 dressup, unrestrained do ask do tell out and proud at the space bar dollhouse, all the evolving new and exciting things you've ever wanted.
|
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
473
|
Posted - 2012.03.04 16:34:00 -
[20] - Quote
:( disorientating |
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Lady Aja
24
|
Posted - 2012.03.04 17:10:00 -
[21] - Quote
hired goon wrote:When I started playing Eve back in 1998
stopped reading here. |
Akrasjel Lanate
Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance
635
|
Posted - 2012.03.04 17:16:00 -
[22] - Quote
solution:
Katharsis |
Scien Inkunen
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
16
|
Posted - 2012.03.04 17:16:00 -
[23] - Quote
hired goon wrote:These mission runners have all but forgotten that at one time, level 4 missions didn't even exist; now simply expecting that amount of income as a basic right and entitlement. They will then complain that they have reached the end game - blaming CCP for the lack of new content and the vacancy of that special feeling of "wonder" we all receive when start Eve for the first time and see the possibilities stretched out before us. This type of player cannot take responsibility for himself - and though understands the problem with hyper-inflation and hitting the end game - only wishes a remedy in the form of more and better stuff for him to play with, forever. This is not a problem particular to the high-sec mission runner however, I find it in many of us, especially the newbies that join Eve and immediately lament they will not be flying a titan at the end of the week; instead of forming a group with like-minded newbies and experiencing the game together from the start - enjoying it as it unfolds as many of us did. I believe we should each take responsibility for our own Eve experience, not blame others or CCP for it. I find this sense of wonder and exploration is central to Eve, and many times find myself pining for the days of old, when finding Eve for the first time. The wonder of being a newbie in a frigate mining Omber in Sobeseki. It is why I felt the need to make this thread last week exploring the idea of resetting Eve. See for yourself the animosity in the replies. From that day until this, I fight for responsibility in Eve. Responsibility from each of us as players to tolerate a re-shuffle of in-game value. Also from CCP who must take control of the game before it slowly stagnates itself to death; and who must not be frightened by absurd threats of multi-account rage-quitting from entitled high-seccers whose life revolves around how quickly they can tractor-beam and salvage all the wrecks of a dead space area. This is an impassioned plea for reason and responsibility from us, the Eve-loving player base. Let's bring back the magic of Eve.
Bringing back the magic ? If were more onest corp in EVE, without primary goal to ripoff the young players and CEO's with something other on their mind than fill thei sh**ty ego - maybe the magic will return.
Read the "Fart file" and you will understand the meaning of life ! |
IsTheOpOver
56
|
Posted - 2012.03.04 17:42:00 -
[24] - Quote
YuuKnow wrote:hired goon wrote:When I started playing Eve back in 1998, there were four classes of ship - frigate, cruiser, battleship and industrial Huh?..Eve was introduced in 2003...
Maybe he was thinking of the only game greater than eve.. Ultima Online that launched in 1997.
Very similar games (well before Trammel).
|
Lord Haur
Grim Determination Nulli Secunda
17
|
Posted - 2012.03.04 17:48:00 -
[25] - Quote
hired goon wrote: And when I say 'most players' I am not referring to nullsec or wormhole players, who have dared the dangers of Eve to acquire the shinyest riches. I refer to the zero-risk, high-sec mission runner. Welcome to 2007/8, when everyone had a highsec L4 alt.
Quote:When I started playing Eve back in 1998, Believable troll, until here. |
LuisWu
Sorry Guy Your Wife Forced Me
9
|
Posted - 2012.03.04 18:36:00 -
[26] - Quote
In my opinion the main problem is that right now everyone can make osbcene amount of isk without taking risk, and if you are not doing the same is almost imposible to compete because everyone and his mother has T3-¦s, pirate faction cruisers, 2b pods and a cyno ready to deploy hell over your head.
(not an english native speaker, sorry if i had make mistakes) |
TheBreadMuncher
Boxxed Up Industries
28
|
Posted - 2012.03.04 18:39:00 -
[27] - Quote
I'd just like to say:
Tech mooooons... |
JitaPriceChecker2
State War Academy Caldari State
26
|
Posted - 2012.03.04 19:04:00 -
[28] - Quote
+1 for OP |
LittleTerror
Day Unhappy Security Inc.
6
|
Posted - 2012.03.04 19:06:00 -
[29] - Quote
Op has a lack of imagination and so cries on the forum that they are bored of eve... |
ApophisXP
Sadistic Retribution Sadistic Empire
13
|
Posted - 2012.03.04 19:24:00 -
[30] - Quote
I agree with hired goon. Change is needed. |
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