| Pages: [1] 2 3 :: one page |
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
   |
Posted - 2008.05.13 18:00:00 -
[1]
I think at this point, we have only just realized how fragile the secondary market was. The loss of Ionia didn't exactly manifest itself in a good way. I had hoped that people would realize where we were heading, in terms of the secondary market. But I personally kind of ignored it, hoping that it was the start of a new era, with new capsulteers starting new IPOs.
It wasn't till FIN(-U)'s announcement that it's closing down, that I think people realize how serious of a situation we have here, in terms of keeping a stable market.
If oversaturation of isk in the market, was bad enough prior to these events, imagine what is going to happen during the next few months.
The issues I have been mentioning several times, on the podcast, seem to come truer than I ever expected it to be. I have had many headaches over the last week, trying to come up with a reasonable solution, which could potentially reawaken the sleeping beauty.
But it seems to me like it's really just a product of scale, which is a problem with games in general.
I have so far, despite how much I hate myself for thinking it, come to the conclusion that the secondary market was really just the product of a somewhat undersaturated market.
People have called me crazy, and stated that there is no problem. And I can understand why. But I think it's a problem, when one of the most complex aspects of the game, diminishes as much as the secondary market has.
I personally have little hope that we will see the secondary market return back to the situation we had just +-1 year ago. But I think it's important that we put some spotlight onto this issue.
This leads me to the point of this thread, other than calling doomsday.
Are we facing a real problem yet, and if so, what could change it? It seems to me like a revamp of the way the market works, in eve, is the only real solution. But I fear it won't make a difference either, if the market dries out before action is taken.
|
Ben Bitdiddle
|
Posted - 2008.05.13 18:07:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Ben Bitdiddle on 13/05/2008 18:07:56
I think what really is needed is more integration of stuff that used to be in the secondary market into the market itself.
For example, I see no reason why company shares can't be traded on the market after an IPO, with buy and sell orders, and all. Also, it's kind of annoying to have to resort to contracts if you want to buy or sell a faction item like a CNR or a gistii MWD.
The changes to the economy in EVE since I started playing looks to me like the market is getting more efficient. Spreads are tightening, ships are getting cheaper, and the widespread availability of items (even capital and super capital ships) is growing faster than ever.
Why do you call this a doomsday?
|
Shar Tegral
|
Posted - 2008.05.13 18:08:00 -
[3]
Not to seem dismissive but Eve, and its various segments, goes through cycles. Just like everything else. Right now the investment market is in a downward "dulldrum" cycle.
Will the investment market recover? Hard to say really. As players get more saturated in isk, and the dedicate market hounds are going to only get more saturated, the need to approach the public is going to become more rare.
I think the IPO market is transitioning from a public call for funds to private Venture Capital funding. You can see this in the public calls already where the buy in starts and you have a select few who just buy up most of the available shares in short order. Now we are likely going to see less public investment vehicles as many who have good plans go to some of these people directly.
Of course I could be talking out my arse too. I'm going to pause my ideas right now and come back to this later.
/pants from strain
To Shar -verb:
1 - To say what you mean.
2 - To say what it means.
3 - To say something mean. |
Kazzac Elentria
|
Posted - 2008.05.13 18:10:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Shar Tegral
Not to seem dismissive but Eve, and its various segments, goes through cycles. Just like everything else. Right now the investment market is in a downward "dulldrum" cycle.
Will the investment market recover? Hard to say really. As players get more saturated in isk, and the dedicate market hounds are going to only get more saturated, the need to approach the public is going to become more rare.
I think the IPO market is transitioning from a public call for funds to private Venture Capital funding. You can see this in the public calls already where the buy in starts and you have a select few who just buy up most of the available shares in short order. Now we are likely going to see less public investment vehicles as many who have good plans go to some of these people directly.
Of course I could be talking out my arse too. I'm going to pause my ideas right now and come back to this later.
/pants from strain
I think we are only seeing a transition of the secondary market into a bank focused and private investment one. Which leaves the general public at large to do the simple things like deposit into a straight forward account and let that trusted party handle their isk investments on their behalf.
If anything, I see the emergence of hedge fund traders offering public accounts for fees, etc.. in our future. |
LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
|
Posted - 2008.05.13 18:11:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Ben Bitdiddle
The changes to the economy in EVE since I started playing looks to me like the market is getting more efficient. Spreads are tightening, ships are getting cheaper, and the widespread availability of items (even capital and super capital ships) is growing faster than ever.
Why do you call this a doomsday?
That is extremely good, for the consumer. EvE at this point, is mostly a consumers market. Is this bad? Not really. But it is for things like IPO's.
I'm not saying that the system is inheriently broken due to the fact people can't viably run an IPO due to the state of market. It's just a shame to see such a wonderful feature of eve(One of the few things which keeps me going) fall away.
|
Ben Bitdiddle
|
Posted - 2008.05.13 18:27:00 -
[6]
Originally by: LaVista Vista
I'm not saying that the system is inheriently broken due to the fact people can't viably run an IPO due to the state of market. It's just a shame to see such a wonderful feature of eve(One of the few things which keeps me going) fall away.
But why? Even with tighter margins there are still plenty of traders who make a lot of money, and there will always be a demand for capital. In my view the only barrier to entry is trust. Anyone who needs ISK and can get people to trust them with their money can start an IPO.
|
Shadarle
|
Posted - 2008.05.13 18:49:00 -
[7]
I said this a while back, but I will repeat it here.
E-Bank and other such institutions have killed the IPO side of EVE in my opinion. Why should anyone deal with the hassles of investors and paying out 7-10% divs or more when they could just get a loan instead and not have to deal with all those hassles?
The loans offered by people & institutions is what has killed IPO's more than anything else. But it doesn't help that T2 BPO's are now not worth owning in most cases. It also doesn't help that capital production is not worth doing. It doesn't help that freighter copying is now crap as is carrier and mothership copying.
Too many people have too much money now sitting around doing nothing... which is greatly inflating the prices of T2 BPO's and lowering the prices of copies (as so many people can afford to buy BPO's to copy them). So there are almost no profitable means of making money outside strict trading. Trading is still easy to make money on, just as easy as it ever was. The problem is scaling that up. I now trade in multiple regions (used to only trade in one). It was the only way I could scale up my trading... but it adds to the amount of work by quite a bit.
Frankly I don't see much point anymore... as I now have more money than I could ever possibly use... even if I got killed 10 times a day pvp'ing. I am sure I'm not the only one in this situation these days. This is a problem for the market... there needs to be a massive ISK sink for people with incredibly excessive money and it has to be removed from the game, not just moved around.
|
Kazzac Elentria
|
Posted - 2008.05.13 19:01:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Shadarle
..stuff..
Excellent points all around, I think the one you hit the best was the massive isk sink. I'll take this time to bring up a topic that was hit back... Jan, maybe before Xmas not sure I'd have to go looking at my post history... but anyway the idea was that there really is no EndGame as it were for traders and industrialists. There is no sink massive enough to carebears to ensure that the stock piles of isk as myself, Shar, and many many others I am betting get's taken out of the game in any meaning way.
Several ideas were thrown around about how to find a sink worthy of 10's of billions of isk one of my favorites presented back then was the ability to purchase stations in empire controlled space.
I mean really, we have pod pilots who have fortunes that rival some of the Caldari mega corporations. Why can we not design a sink large enough for them to own their own parcel of space given the right amount of isk?
In the end design wise it might amount to nothing more than a massive epeen bragging rights and only serve moderate faucet functions and even then faucets for the players using it, not really the owners. The idea being taking this liquid asset of isk and tying it up into physical and destroyable goods in game could do nothing but benefit IMHO |
Ben Bitdiddle
|
Posted - 2008.05.13 19:09:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Kazzac Elentria
Several ideas were thrown around about how to find a sink worthy of 10's of billions of isk one of my favorites presented back then was the ability to purchase stations in empire controlled space.
Hmm, interesting. Although if the stations didn't themselves provide ISK, there would have to be some creative element. i.e. the owner of the station can put his own agent in there and design missions. That might improve the variety of PvE in EVE. Or you could design the interior of your station if they ever implement the "get out of your ship and walk around the station" concept.
|
Sharpclaw
Caldari
Perkone
|
Posted - 2008.05.13 19:42:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Sharpclaw on 13/05/2008 19:42:48
Originally by: Kazzac Elentria
Several ideas were thrown around about how to find a sink worthy of 10's of billions of isk one of my favorites presented back then was the ability to purchase stations in empire controlled space.
One isk sink I would make use of is spending isk for SP.
/end derail
Another problem I see with the secondary market is that you are working for other people (with their isk). You can work your tail off and margins still shrink and more competition still shows up and at the end of the day you don't even get to keep all the isk you earned.
|
YouGotRipped
Ewigkeit
|
Posted - 2008.05.13 19:55:00 -
[11]
Edited by: YouGotRipped on 13/05/2008 20:01:13
Originally by: Shadarle
E-Bank and other such institutions have killed the IPO side of EVE in my opinion. Why should anyone deal with the hassles of investors and paying out 7-10% divs or more when they could just get a loan instead and not have to deal with all those hassles?
The loans offered by people & institutions is what has killed IPO's more than anything else.
Nothing new Shadarle, really.
Originally by: Shadarle
But it doesn't help that T2 BPO's are now not worth owning in most cases. It also doesn't help that capital production is not worth doing. It doesn't help that freighter copying is now crap as is carrier and mothership copying.
This is the normal result of competition dragging down the prices gradually, as more and more people kept playing and got the skills for what they thought to be a profitable enterprise. The market will never recover prices will spike individually for limited amount of time before the margins close again.
Originally by: Shadarle
So there are almost no profitable means of making money outside strict trading.
This is a problem for the market... there needs to be a massive ISK sink for people with incredibly excessive money and it has to be removed from the game, not just moved around.
Agreed. Maybe, just maybe, Ambulation will provide people with the possibility to buy their own living space and decorate it with expensive art products.
Joking, something must be done about the capital ships, T2 carriers maybe?
Originally by: Kazzac Elentria
Several ideas were thrown around about how to find a sink worthy of 10's of billions of isk one of my favorites presented back then was the ability to purchase stations in empire controlled space.
I like the idea, though precautions must be taken to ensure that they won't turn into just another extremely profitable enterprise.
|
Shar Tegral
|
Posted - 2008.05.13 20:19:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Kazzac Elentria
There is no sink massive enough to carebears to ensure that the stock piles of isk as myself, Shar, and many many others I am betting get's taken out of the game in any meaning way.
Well, since you pointed out the massive amount of isk I have, I'm quite poor compared to most. Purely by design as well. Long ago I noticed that there was few true isk sinks in Eve. So instead of constantly maximizing my returns I have purposely sought to limit my own success. I, simply, take vacations in Eve from "my Eve". As "my Eve" would best be described as the economic side I guess my vacations would best be described as "semi-retirements". Coming out of retirement gives me some thrill of hitting the market anew. The whole re-research, the whole fight to claim my market (and it gets harder each time - think increased difficulty), and then the whole boredom when I've gotten on top again. I do keep some passive revenue generators going and I also keep several billions in Ebank and other ipo's. But too many people forget that Eve isn't just about isk or acquisition... or even gaining isk to lose isk in PvP. I go out and try to taste all of Eve and to do that right you need time off from your "Eve Job". Ebank, as a "job", is ideal for me in that regard as it rarely requires me to do thing in game other than some withdrawals. As to Ebank killing IPO's... we, the directors, did our solemnest best to avoid that by having an unsatisfactory rate or return. However there is one thing about Ebank that exceeds most ipos that have ever been launched, speculated, or pondered about. Trust. For many, it is better to get small return with someone that will give them their money back instead of risking a high return with someone that may run off with their money or, even more dreaded, actually just have a downturn in the market wipe out the project. (I actually do think people fear(angst) bad performance from good people than they do scams - Just look at all the drama a good intentioned & well meaning manager gets when presenting bad news to his investors. Ungrateful lot who start screaming scam the minute there's something not as they want it to be.) Hmmmm... Shad is right. Why IPO and get the grief from the forums trolls when you can pay a higher interest rate w/o being griefed?
To Shar -verb:
1 - To say what you mean.
2 - To say what it means.
3 - To say something mean. |
Kazzac Elentria
|
Posted - 2008.05.13 20:28:00 -
[13]
Didn't mean to single you out  |
YunFu Yan
Yan Enterprises
|
Posted - 2008.05.13 21:05:00 -
[14]
As for the suggestion of owning space/buying stations...
You can do that. It's called 0.0. But you'll have to deal with other aspects of the game then, like politics. And you will have to really interact with other players instead of just working the market.
My corp is privately run and exists purely for the purpose of fueling a 0.0 corp. Believe me, I will never have too much ISK. 
-------------------------------------------------
Yan Enterprises - We mean business. |
YouGotRipped
Ewigkeit
|
Posted - 2008.05.13 21:10:00 -
[15]
Edited by: YouGotRipped on 13/05/2008 21:17:16
Originally by: Shar Tegral
Hmmmm... Shad is right. Why IPO and get the grief from the forums trolls when you can pay a higher interest rate w/o being griefed?
I suppose adopting a more lenient attitude towards (or even promoting) moderate risk IPOs would help.
Free auditing and consultancy services should also help.
|
Shar Tegral
|
Posted - 2008.05.13 21:20:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Shar Tegral
Hmmmm... Shad is right. Why IPO and get the grief from the forums trolls when you can pay a higher interest rate w/o being griefed?
Originally by: YouGotRipped
I suppose adopting a more lenient attitude towards (or even promoting) moderate risk IPOs would help.
I even promote high risk ipo's myself however do not mistake me: I'd rather have isk lost to some bad business choices by a trustworthy individual then have isk lost to some turd just running off with the isk.
To Shar -verb:
1 - To say what you mean.
2 - To say what it means.
3 - To say something mean. |
abraheam
Dirty Denizens
|
Posted - 2008.05.13 21:55:00 -
[17]
Why would I want to write a proposal and post it here to have a self appointed MD hierarchy of melodramtic internet people nit pick over 2 billion ISKies worth of investments.
I am not saying the analyzation isnt necessary, but founding, and running a private corp is just as much effort, more satisfying, and can lead to riches far greater then any public offering. Plus you can vary your activities.
Anyone who can actually run a large scale IPO, with the time, knowledge, and personal assets for collateral is already doing it, only privately.
There is enough ISK out there where you dont have to play customer service to public investors.
Short Version - It is to much trouble for an unknown.
|
Robacz
Essence Trade
Essence Enterprises
|
Posted - 2008.05.13 22:07:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Shadarle
E-Bank and other such institutions have killed the IPO side of EVE in my opinion. Why should anyone deal with the hassles of investors and paying out 7-10% divs or more when they could just get a loan instead and not have to deal with all those hassles?
The loans offered by people & institutions is what has killed IPO's more than anything else. But it doesn't help that T2 BPO's are now not worth owning in most cases. It also doesn't help that capital production is not worth doing. It doesn't help that freighter copying is now crap as is carrier and mothership copying.
Too many people have too much money now sitting around doing nothing... which is greatly inflating the prices of T2 BPO's and lowering the prices of copies (as so many people can afford to buy BPO's to copy them). So there are almost no profitable means of making money outside strict trading. Trading is still easy to make money on, just as easy as it ever was. The problem is scaling that up. I now trade in multiple regions (used to only trade in one). It was the only way I could scale up my trading... but it adds to the amount of work by quite a bit.
Pretty much what I was going to say.
|
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2008.05.13 22:19:00 -
[19]
Economy of scale
Enough said
__
CSM candidates - quick reference cards (NEW: spreadsheet)
Or just vote for LaVista Vista or Leandro Salazar like I did.
|
YouGotRipped
Ewigkeit
|
Posted - 2008.05.13 22:25:00 -
[20]
Edited by: YouGotRipped on 13/05/2008 22:26:22
Originally by: Akita T
Economy of scale
Enough said
Originally by: Akita T
The game is full of idiots that fail to go bankrupt !
Well if that were to happen they would quit the game.
Only corps with division of labor and profit can go bankrupt read my PDE thread. It's more boring than yours btw.
|
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2008.05.13 22:30:00 -
[21]
Well, the bad news is nobody can actually go bankrupt in EVE 
But at least you can make sure they FEEL their losses.
__
CSM candidates - quick reference cards (NEW: spreadsheet)
Or just vote for LaVista Vista or Leandro Salazar like I did.
|
Pang Grohl
Gallente
Sudo Corp
|
Posted - 2008.05.13 22:32:00 -
[22]
Originally by: YouGotRipped
Agreed. Maybe, just maybe, Ambulation will provide people with the possibility to buy their own living space and decorate it with expensive art products.
Joking, something must be done about the capital ships, T2 carriers maybe?
EVE truly lacks a form of conspicuous consumption. One of the features that Ambulation is supposed to add is the ability to create monuments to wealth in the form of corporate offices and store fronts.
One thing that EVE players can do now is engage in philanthropy. Donate to the Fedo Freedom Foundation today!
***
Si non adjuvas, noces
(If you're not helping, you're hurting)
|
Meleil
|
Posted - 2008.05.13 22:48:00 -
[23]
I really want Ambulation to provide me with a true and interesting Isk sink. Hell I'd gladly sink 20bil on a ******* awesome Eve apartment  The rich of eve need a interesting and engaging isk sink to encourage frivolous spending. It would definitely highten the demand for IPO's. The demand is fairly high now but everyone is comfortably rich that they don't see a need to be risky with their isk.
|
Mr Horizontal
Gallente
KIA Corp
KIA Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.05.13 23:37:00 -
[24]
Firstly on the main point, the whole of EVE is in a state of flux atm. We have had FIN, BMBE and Ionia's 3 funds all dry up in MD. Then 0.0 has had MC and TRI pack up, RA fractured, Goons being introverted, and about the only people behaving normally are BoB regaining their former empire. Then in Empire, margins have been squeezed tighter than ever, rare item prices skyrocketing and stuff like that. The game is going through a shakedown.
This is all a problem because people are too rich. RL, if people get too rich, they develop new things to spend money on. From simple things like Fashion, they uprate their wardrobe, buy a new car that does the same job as the old one, and start dining in expensive restaurants that feeds you just as well as the local Fish & Chip shop. On a larger scale, they can afford to get not just a bigger house, but an even bigger one by getting a new bigger mortgage. They invest their cash, supporting fledgling businesses, and even export it across the globe to other countries that are doing well while the west is having it's credit wobble.
In EVE a Megathron owned by a 3 month old noob and a war hardened veteran is exactly the same ship. There is no differentiation.
There is no concept of 'countries' to export and exchange ISK with. I think it'd be wonderful if each faction had it's own currency and we introduced forex to the game.
The secondary market is a player based attempt at creating a market out of nothing. But inherent greed and mistrust between players are always biting at it's heels.
And when the only 'homes' you can get in game are Outposts and POS's each with a very clear and distinct price brackets, and with ships as I said being the same as the next, then there's no variety or means to be creative with cash in game, meaning even if people wanted to spend money on kitschy shintzy overpriced rubbish, they can't.
As for EBANK drowning the market, I think not. Suffice to say with a 276b loan portfolio on 433b capital, and given that about 80% of the ISK in EBANK borrowers would never post in MD, wishing anonymity for political reasons (not trust/hassle, mind) and finally EBANK still constituting part of the secondary market anyway, I think you'll find the problem is elsewhere.
Director | www.eve-bank.net |
Kazzac Elentria
|
Posted - 2008.05.13 23:50:00 -
[25]
Originally by: YunFu Yan
As for the suggestion of owning space/buying stations...
You can do that. It's called 0.0. But you'll have to deal with other aspects of the game then, like politics. And you will have to really interact with other players instead of just working the market.
My corp is privately run and exists purely for the purpose of fueling a 0.0 corp. Believe me, I will never have too much ISK.
That's nice and well and dandy, but it does nothing to solve the bulk of ISK which sits idle in carebear accounts. There is a PvP politic end game, and as such there should be an empire end game.
Design smarter, not harder and instead of forcing players to 0.0 space, encourage them by getting a taste of outpost station construction, and then let them see that the 0.0 version offer vast profits.
Remember I said for it to be a SINK not a faucet. 0.0 outposts are very much isk faucets. |
Kazzac Elentria
|
Posted - 2008.05.14 00:00:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Mr Horizontal
...stuff...
Exactly.. there needs to be very clear but not game defining sinks. If it boosts your epeen, people will sink resources into it.. period.
Create things that give the allusion of benefit, or such a small benefit as to not create unbalance or tip the scale of the faucet in the wrong direction. Make those things grand in scale and requiring large amount of assets, etc.. Offer then some modicum of a uniqueness or customization for a price. Do not require to many barriers or only put up ones that cater to the empire crowd and people will flock to it like flys to s**t |
Mighty Ahti
|
Posted - 2008.05.14 01:35:00 -
[27]
I'm no market guru, so I don't entirely understand the problem stated in the original post. (Is the secondary market the market that isn't actually available on the in game market screen?)
Anyway, after reading the first few posts I figured that CCP should include in the game ways to trade stuff that isn't directly on the market. Since they introduce that to the player and not introduce things like the Out-Of-Game share sales and the contract system (they probably go over it, just not in too much depth), it limits a lot of the public interactions to just the market. Contracts get looked into sooner for non-market stuff, but I still hardly search them for items. Shares don't even get covered at all, and are kind of a mystery when you join/form a corporation. CCP has all these inventive mechanics for a great market in EVE, but too many of them have to be done out of game by someone willing to take the time and money to create a site to host these mechanics.
If CCP incorporated a decent selling mechanism in game, like a stock market or allowing to trade stocks via contracts. And also gave the player an introduction to them, I'm sure that there would be a lot more public interaction with this (secondary market). Although it could cease being the secondary market and transform into the primary market, which wouldn't be all that bad since it at least incorporated the items / services that were on the secondary market.
|
Kwint Sommer
Lothian Quay Industries
|
Posted - 2008.05.14 01:38:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Kwint Sommer on 14/05/2008 01:49:37
Originally by: Mighty Ahti
I'm no market guru, so I don't entirely understand the problem stated in the original post. (Is the secondary market the market that isn't actually available on the in game market screen?)
Anyway, after reading the first few posts I figured that CCP should include in the game ways to trade stuff that isn't directly on the market. Since they introduce that to the player and not introduce things like the Out-Of-Game share sales and the contract system (they probably go over it, just not in too much depth), it limits a lot of the public interactions to just the market. Contracts get looked into sooner for non-market stuff, but I still hardly search them for items. Shares don't even get covered at all, and are kind of a mystery when you join/form a corporation. CCP has all these inventive mechanics for a great market in EVE, but too many of them have to be done out of game by someone willing to take the time and money to create a site to host these mechanics.
If CCP incorporated a decent selling mechanism in game, like a stock market or allowing to trade stocks via contracts. And also gave the player an introduction to them, I'm sure that there would be a lot more public interaction with this (secondary market). Although it could cease being the secondary market and transform into the primary market, which wouldn't be all that bad since it at least incorporated the items / services that were on the secondary market.
Purchasing and Shipping Moon Minerals |
Acidictadpole
Spartan Industries
Cruel Intentions
|
Posted - 2008.05.14 03:11:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Acidictadpole on 14/05/2008 03:13:45
Although it may not be a direct issue, I think that if this secondary market was a bit more "visible" it wouldn't hurt.
Scams are hardly ever successful from the buyer side of things, and most of the people who engage in this sort of thing are aware of such scams and therefore only purchase items from trusted entities.
I only recently became aware of the stock-market out of game, and Eve-bank. Even though I do not engage in it I wish I knew of it sooner so I could have used it as an option to gain income.
|
Mighty Ahti
|
Posted - 2008.05.14 03:14:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Kwint Sommer
Edited by: Kwint Sommer on 14/05/2008 02:03:19
The issue as you utterly failed to comprehend is not visibility or usability. Getting the average player to take notice wouldn't fix anything, in all likelihood it would just make for more scams.
Besides the rudeness implied in your post, you also mentioned what the issue is not. Please explain the issue so that us dumber minds can understand it. Sometimes it requires a simple mind to come up with a solution to certain problems because they view the problem from a different perspective.
|
| |
|
| Pages: [1] 2 3 :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |