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Ravenal
The Fated
Odyssey.
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Posted - 2008.05.14 05:36:00 -
[1]
Right off to the numbers
1400mm II
Dam mod: 7.245
ROF: 23.63
Clip size: 10
Ammo damage: 44 (emp L)
Damage per shot: 318,78
10 second normalized damage: 135
Tempest normalized damage: 224,9 (all guns: 1349,4)
Maelstrom normalized damage: 179,9 (all guns: 1439,2)
425mm railgun II
Dam mod: 3.3
ROF: 9.56
Clip size: 40
Ammo damage: 48 (antimatter L)
Damage per shot: 158.4
10 second normalized damage: 165.7
Megathron normalized damage: 207,1 (all guns: 1449,7)
Hyperion normalized damage: 207.1 (all guns: 1656,8)
Rokh normalized damage: 165.7 (all guns: 1325,6)
Mega beam laser II
Dam mod: 3.6
ROF: 9
Clip size: infinite
Ammo damage: 48 (multifreq L)
Damage per shot: 172.8
10 second normalized damage: 192
Apoc normalized damage: 192 (all guns: 1536)
Abaddon normalized damage: 240 (all guns: 1920)
Tachyon II
Dam mod: 5.4
ROF: 12.5
Clip size: infinite
Ammo damage: 48 (multifreq L)
Damage per shot: 259.2
10 second normalized damage: 207.36
Apoc normalized damage 207.36 (all guns: 1658,88)
Abaddon normalized damage: 259,2 (all guns: 2073,6)
Setup:
I am normalizing the guns damage down to 10 seconds because the first two shots really represent the "alpha strike" capabilities of the gun (the initial volley and then the second volley that happens at the guns rof)
I chose 10 seconds because thats a nice round number and approx what the rof is for a nicely skilled tempests pilot (actually closer to 9 seconds)
Ignoring skills because they'll do the same for all guns, and used battleship lvl5 to work out the ship bonuses.
Results:
The results were a bit more drastic than I expected so I checked the tempest numbers twice. Sure, the 1400mm has the highest damage per shot so its single shot alpha strike is the highest:
Tempest volley: 2390,85
Maelstrom volley: 2550,24
Megathron volley: 1386
Hyperion volley: 1584
Rokh volley: 1267,2
Apoc volley (mega beam): 1382,4
Abaddon volley (mega beam): 1728
Apoc volley (tachyon): 2073,6
Abaddon volley (tachyon): 2592
wait! Abaddon volley damage using tachyons is the highest!?!
So, unless my numbers are whacked out (a bit jetlagged atm so they could be completely bonkers) ... please review them and comment ... there is something seriously wrong here.
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Ravenal
The Fated
Odyssey.
|
Posted - 2008.05.14 06:23:00 -
[2]
 Originally by: Vitrael
Essentially, the Artillery will deal the most damage in a fight that lasts less time than Tachyon ROF.
See how I approached the fact that abaddon tachyon volley damage is the highest?
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Ravenal
The Fated
Odyssey.
|
Posted - 2008.05.14 06:46:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Boz Well
But they don't use any cap! 
despite the irony of that its worth mentioning that cap on the first volley does not matter at all 
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Ravenal
The Fated
Odyssey.
|
Posted - 2008.05.14 06:51:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Ravenal on 14/05/2008 06:55:11
Originally by: Lord WarATron
Edited by: Lord WarATron on 14/05/2008 06:50:00
Please do DPS over a 10 Minute period for Abaddon before complaining.
dont be silly...
feel i need to explain this a bit then. The purpose of this thread is not to do over time dps, but to point out the flaw of the 1400mm gun specifically. I did this in as general way as i possibly could.
If you are lucky enough to be able to shoot relentlessly for 5-10 minutes, all the more props to you i'd say (factoring in lag when locking targets and module lag when disengaging targets that have moved out of tracking or range) ...
your fleet scenario simply isnt worth the time to use when comparing these guns.
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Ravenal
The Fated
Odyssey.
|
Posted - 2008.05.14 06:56:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Achran Dexx
Have you tried using tachyons for more than two or three minutes?
Have you tried destroying a ship with 1400mm guns recently?
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Ravenal
The Fated
Odyssey.
|
Posted - 2008.05.14 07:35:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Lord WarATron
Just out of intrest, could you tell us exactly what your objective is
to show that the alpha of all guns does not belong to the 1400mm
And yes, I know its horribly difficult to fit 8 tachyons and run them for an extended time period, but if its alpha you want you "can" do it.
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Ravenal
The Fated
Odyssey.
|
Posted - 2008.05.14 07:40:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Stork DK
Tachyon Beam Laser II
Powergrid: 4125
CPU: 63
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II
Powergrid: 3575
CPU: 47
About 15.5% more PG used and 34% more CPU used per gun.
'nuff said tbh
apoc has 25% more powergrid than the tempest, 50 less cpu though. 8 tachyons for the apoc are a breeze though.
two AC routers leave you with over 1k PW on the 8 tach apoc, 6 1400mms drain your PW basically dry.
so, no. Not "'nuff said tbh"
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Ravenal
The Fated
Odyssey.
|
Posted - 2008.05.14 07:44:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Ravenal on 14/05/2008 07:44:53
Originally by: Stork DK
also when youfit 6 arties on a temp you still have 2 spare highslots to fx cruise missiles. Abaddon doesnt
oh, yeah 
Thats where your two AC routers go, and for what gain? 2x 400ish damage alpha strike?!?
not really.
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Ravenal
The Fated
Odyssey.
|
Posted - 2008.05.14 09:06:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Lord WarATron
Again, what exactly is your objective in real world pvp?
My purpose was more on a theoretical note... and i left damage mods and such out of the equation for a purpose.
Additionally it was the abaddon that had the higher alpha, not the apoc.
Please bear in mind that I tried to use my calculations as "disconnected" from any tactical scenario while still noting that each of the gun setup was possible... I've used a T2 fitted apoc with 8 tachs. ***** to fit but fun to shoot.
so quit your "real world pvp" setup crap... there are more applications to a 8x tach ship than "real world pvp", whatever that means coming from a BoBit
Quote:
His point as best I can tell is that having a high alpha is one of artillery's few bonuses, but even that is done better with other guns. Although perhaps a seperate point is that even if in practice the matar ships/guns have a superior alpha, it's not by a huge margin and having a slightly greater alpha (which may or may not be the case) is rather meaningless. Take into account the many negatives that come with artillery setups, and they are pretty clearly the worst of the weapon systems.
thats what she said. 
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Ravenal
The Fated
Odyssey.
|
Posted - 2008.05.14 09:19:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Lord WarATron
The whole point is that the OP is cooking stuff up in EFT.
i did not use EFT, I did my calculations by hand. I'm old fashioned and dont like EFT all that much.
Quote:
A 1400 does crap damage on purpose. Put one on a RCU'ed up Harbringer for example. Would you call a 1400 Harbringer be a correct argument to claim that a 1400 is uncompetitive?
which is why i have "normalized 10 second damage" and then special entries for 1400mm damage using tempest and maelstrom
Quote:
Only in properly fitted ships can you compare. OP is not using properly fitted non-minmatar ships and neglects the mention the major benifits of Projectiles over conventional Turrets ( and that temptest have 2 extra high slots for launchers/utility).
utility yeah, launchers ... rarely, and then not for much dps. Here I stripped the benefit of utility and launchers because of possible range issues as they tend to vary. The only common constant would be the range and tracking, and i even left the tracking out which further penalizes the 1400mm.
Quote:
If the op has a issue, such as to re-introduce cap usage again for projectiles in return for a damage boost or alpha boost, thats fine. But as it stands
I did not include cap because it does not matter within the span of a single volley or two which is the point of the op, the supposed alpha ability of 1400mm.
Quote:
1400's have the highist alpha in "Bonused ships" when fighting real world opponents due to resists.
"fighting real world" ... gimme a break here. Comparing resists on the abaddon and tempest/maelstrom the minmatar come out on the bottom.
Comparing hps and resists vs apoc and tempest ... apoc wins.
stating for clarification. You are doing exactly what I was trying to avoid in the OP, trying to fit the "out of the box" guns into "real world scenarios" that have so many variables. All those variables makes calculating any sort of comparisons very difficult.
So again, TRY to compare these guns in ALL scenarios. If you can do that, please continue to reference real world scenarios. Remember you have to find "general joe" to prove your point. "reverend joe" is not a representative for the group.
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Ravenal
The Fated
Odyssey.
|
Posted - 2008.05.14 09:25:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Lord WarATron
the unrealistic Siege II/1400 Temptest wins hands down for its 8k Alpha.
this is "reverend joe", not a representative of the real world. You misunderstand that I did NOT just "cook" up any setting or numbers or whatever. I purely did the path of the ALPHA with guns without considering skills or other modules.
Like you say, I could cook up this and that scenario. But thats what I tried to avoid in the OP (thought i did good with that even) ...
I remove ALL aspects other than the common ones of these guns. No missiles because they dont always work depending on range and timeframe. No utility slots for the same reason.
No tracking even because all these guns "should" suffer the same bad effects when tracking kicks into the equation (1400's suffer first though)
no cap because its just the first few volleys that all guns can handle easily.
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Ravenal
The Fated
Odyssey.
|
Posted - 2008.05.14 10:24:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Lord WarATron
So according to your theory, comparing 6 Tach II on a temptest is the same as comparing 6 Tach II on a apoc, since you do not look at any external factors, just the gun itself.
I did that too - per shot damage and normalized gun damage.
In results I then explored the theoretical (yet possible) alpha of each ship with the guns used in the comparison. In that comparison I removed all but the most common aspects of the guns possible damage.
As you rightfully said, i "can" fiddle around with all kinds of setups to get this and that... so again I just "normalized" the setups taking only the ship bonuses and number of turret slots available.
...scientific progress goes *boink*
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Ravenal
The Fated
Odyssey.
|
Posted - 2008.05.14 10:57:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Lord WarATron
E.G Apoc with 8 x 1400/quake = 5132 Alpha
Apoc with 8 x Tach II/Gleem = 3825 Alpha
correction:
apoc 8x1400/emp (used in the op) = 2550
apoc 8xtach/multi = 2073,6
not as much difference as in your example PLUS the highest alpha from the OP was with the abaddon, not the apoc...
sheesh... seriously, you just dont get it. You are still hacking away with specific X setup and stuff like that. If you are going to go into the 1400mm on an apoc setup you gotta do the tachs on a tempest too.
oh wait... thats stupid.
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Ravenal
The Fated
Odyssey.
|
Posted - 2008.05.14 12:41:00 -
[14]
derailed much?
simple, 8 tachs on an abaddon (possible fit) do higher alpha than 8 1400's fitted to any ship.
followed by <insert whine about having to conform to yada yada real world thingymagicks> that are essentially derailing from the original purpose of the OP.
I did show that the highest damage per shot does come from a 1400mm gun (single gun, single shot) but raise the counter that actually the highest alpha is held by the abaddon under not all to strange circumstances. Yes, it is possible to factor more circumstantial variables into the equation and buff up the tempest for example (not the maelstrom) to fit siege launchers and give it the highest alpha again.
This requires alot more skills trained and favorable situation (range, possible target painting, speed ...) You can also fit 2 launchers to the apoc btw that does buff up the alpha damage of an apoc ... and so on.
so again, please try to disconnect from the highly circumstantial variables that "can" apply and focus on the common attributes when comparing these guns.
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Ravenal
The Fated
Odyssey.
|
Posted - 2008.05.14 22:04:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Lord WarATron
Ahh, but if you read the OP, which you say you ignored, his point was about total alpha in a unrealistic setup insted of a real one. All that is happeneing here is you are going round in circles for what was already discussed in the first page, simply because people are skipping or skimming the first page and repeating the same stuff that has already been covered.
Its all about contex.
you put words to my fingers that are not correct.
My point was NOT about total alpha in an unrealistic setup over a real one, that was somewhat of a side effect after exploring the damage per shot.
All other attributes ignored (because they can depend too heavily on the circumstances in which they excel) what remains is the highest possible alpha strike is with the abaddon. PLEASE note that you are NOT to put anything else into the equation because you can do the same for the "other" side of the coin (you proved that much with your torp tempest, unrealistic as it was) 
So focusing ENTIRELY at the ONLY thing that is supposed to make 1400's superior over other weapon systems (no cap/clip size vs cap/infinite firing seems to come out about even, perhaps slightly in favour of amarr) which is ALPHA, the usage results seem to indicate that other guns CAN at least come close, if not exceed the alpha capabilities of the 1400.
with 7 guns the abaddon is at: 2268 volley while the tempest is at: 2390,85 volley. At this level these two ships are sailing at approx the same powergrid left (slightly in favor of the abaddon though). Still even though the ships are at similar levels now both have to fit a powergrid module/rig to be able to get an MWD/plates into the mix. This again benefits the Abaddon because a % increase to its PW yields more PW, thus it does not need as many PW mods/rigs to fulfill its needs.
What Im hoping to show you with this is that 7 tachs favor the Abaddon over the tempest while 8 tachs favor the tempest with remaining fitting options. Yes, at that level the abaddon has a higher volley damage but the tempest "can" overcome that with some serious sacrifice and out of this world silly fittings.
So, at 7 tachs and 120 ish lower volley damage than the 1400's on the tempest and 220 lower than the maelstrom with advantages in regards to fitting options I would still say that the abaddon is better off even with only 7 tachs.
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Ravenal
The Fated
Odyssey.
|
Posted - 2008.05.15 16:01:00 -
[16]
you dont want to do drive-by shooting in laggy situations, once you have loaded the grid you want to own it.
As for the alpha and 25 vs 50 stuff.. thats not entirely true.
25 tempests instapop one apoc at time 0.
24 apocs pop a tempest before the tempests can get another round of fire
24 tempests pop an apoc at their second round of fire
23 apocs pop a tempest before the tempests can get another round of fire.
eventually dps will start to kick in over alpha, after which tempests die faster because of lower hitpoints and lower damage output.
Also, saying this was a drive by, apocs should easily have locked and gotten off two volleys with their high rate of fire before the tempests can lock, instapop and warp out (seeing as the apocs have faster locking with the fittings suggested above)
... so, i'd call that finite.
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Ravenal
The Fated
Odyssey.
|
Posted - 2008.05.16 17:11:00 -
[17]
Right, feature specification:
- Alpha time
The first X amount of time during combat is dominated by alpha striking, this is where artilleries excel.
- Damage time
From time X to time Y railguns do the most damage IF they can maintain their capacitor forever (above average skills)
- Endurance time
From time Y and onwards laser turrets do the most damage IF they can maintain their capacitor forever (above average skills)
Lets assume top skills for every type. The 1400mm gun can fit 10 rounds of ammo to its clip, these 10 rounds take about 80 - 90 seconds to leave towards their target. During this time the 425mm railgun is slowly gaining on the dps of the 1400mm initial alpha optimally converging at the same time as the 1400mm gun has to reload after which the railgun is doing more dps.
During the rest of the 425mm clip the laser turrets are converging to its damage and eventually pass the 425mm dps when it starts to reload its clip.
This defines three different types of engagement tactics, short term shock tactics that dont endure easily as the combat prolongs. Medium length engagements which take the highway in tactical options and long term engagement tactics in which lasers hammer relentlessy onto the opposition if they manage to endure though the early shock damage.
Moving this sort of tactics over to shorter range guns, I would put blasters in the shock range, autocannons in the medium range and lasers in the endurance range again.
The only thing left to define is how long each combat period lasts. Skills then either equal out or diverge the periods if combatants have different levels of skill.
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Ravenal
The Fated
Odyssey.
|
Posted - 2008.05.16 19:10:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Boz Well
Originally by: Ravenal
Right, feature specification:
- Alpha time
The first X amount of time during combat is dominated by alpha striking, this is where artilleries excel.
- Damage time
From time X to time Y railguns do the most damage IF they can maintain their capacitor forever (above average skills)
- Endurance time
From time Y and onwards laser turrets do the most damage IF they can maintain their capacitor forever (above average skills)
Lets assume top skills for every type. The 1400mm gun can fit 10 rounds of ammo to its clip, these 10 rounds take about 80 - 90 seconds to leave towards their target. During this time the 425mm railgun is slowly gaining on the dps of the 1400mm initial alpha optimally converging at the same time as the 1400mm gun has to reload after which the railgun is doing more dps.
During the rest of the 425mm clip (edit: Do you mean the second magazine full of artillery ammo?) the laser turrets are converging to its damage and eventually pass the 425mm dps when it starts to reload its clip.
This defines three different types of engagement tactics, short term shock tactics that dont endure easily as the combat prolongs. Medium length engagements which take the highway in tactical options and long term engagement tactics in which lasers hammer relentlessy onto the opposition if they manage to endure though the early shock damage.
Moving this sort of tactics over to shorter range guns, I would put blasters in the shock range, autocannons in the medium range and lasers in the endurance range again.
The only thing left to define is how long each combat period lasts. Skills then either equal out or diverge the periods if combatants have different levels of skill.
I'm just curious, are those times conjecture/examples, or based on some statistics? Does it really take 1-2 magazines full of artillery fire for railguns/lasers to catch up? I would personally expect both rails and lasers to catch up by at latest the first reload time, and likely sooner.
Slight misunderstanding, this is what Im proposing as how it should work.
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Ravenal
The Fated
Odyssey.
|
Posted - 2008.05.16 22:53:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Zaran Darkstar
I think that would be wrong cause after all the artilleries use no cap so it's fair to be a little weaker in DPS
Getting kinda tired of hearing this line of reasoning. Dont forget that the capless weapon ships have a smaller capacitor. Even though they have higher cap recharge to achieve the same peak cap regen rate you have to count skills that add to the capacitor are more effective on ships that have a larger capacitor to begin with. This however not being entirely true however. The initial cap on the armageddon and tempest are for example the same while the tempest has a noticably worse cap regen.
All in all, the ships that use more cap have more cap to compensate. Its just a question of at which skill level the ships are supposed to be "equals" in cap regen considering tankability and gankability.
For example, i find fitting a dual repper + appropriate guns on an amarr ship about as "easy" to run as on minmatar ships (top skills on both for cap, fitting and that stuff).
So, the end result is that claiming the weapon is capless as some sort of uber benefit isnt really that much of a benefit, specially in long range engagements where you dont encounter neuting.
Going for the racial background, amarr neuts then dont work so nicely on minmatar ships. They however have tracking disruptors that now work wonders on minmatar turret ships while minmatar racial ew is target painting. Yeah... comfy but 
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Ravenal
The Fated
Odyssey.
|
Posted - 2008.05.16 23:21:00 -
[20]
in my opinion rof on the 1400's should be decreased. This means the current alpha they have will have effect longer into the fight. Coupled with that a bigger clip would be required because currently it only takes about 80 - 90 seconds to empty the clip.
With a proportionally bigger clip size to rof the railguns will still out damage the 1400's later into the fight, preferably at about the time the 1400 has to reload or there about.
imo lasers should catch up to railguns in dps at about the time the railguns have to reload, although their dps should be similar up to that point, slowly converging and winning over as long range dps masters.
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Ravenal
The Fated
Odyssey.
|
Posted - 2008.05.17 01:26:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Zaran Darkstar
Yes but the problem in this is that you approach the railguns too much like this. Asking for higher RoF and larger clip size won't be in effect as if bringing the artillery too close to railgun "flavor" ?
While with the increase of damage it will maintain the classical minmatar "flavor" of epic Alpha and the larger clip size + slower rof will contribute in less reloading aka less reloading lag.
Also since increasing the damage creates less dps in the long run compaired to the RoF increase perhaps this way the other players won't mind the change.
So far no one has objected to the alleged fact that CCP wont up the actual alpha damage because of its insta popping ability (one of the reasons behind the hp buff).
So the only way to retain the "alpha" ability is to stretch it out to several "big" (but not insta) shots over a "short" amount of time. This means that you can most likely get one volley off at a cruiser before it aligns and warps, two at a battlecruiser and perhaps three at a battleship (depending heavily on lock speed and target agility). This means agile ships (usually more vulnerable though) can evade alpha (1-2 hits) while heavier ships have to slug it out (2-3 hits)...
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