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Unforgiven Storm
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
101
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Posted - 2012.03.05 15:28:00 -
[1] - Quote
Has you all know PI taxes are calculated based on these values:
Advanced Commodities: 1,350,000.00 ISK Specialized Commodities: 70,000.00 ISK Refined Commodities: 9,000.00 ISK Basic commodities: 500.00 ISK Planet Resources: 5,00 ISK
Since the expansion was released, more than 3 months ago, the base prices have remain static but the market prices that were used to calculate them have changed -> Prices have dropped!
I would like to request CCP to update the base values of PI taxes to reflect current market changes, the same way and interval you update base prices for ship insurance purposes.
Thank you!
Based on this morning prices "Min Sell" and the "volume sold" in Jita I want to propose an update in the base values of the items so they reflect the current price average for each type:
Advanced Commodities: 1,100,000.00 ISK Specialized Commodities: 33,300.00 ISK Refined Commodities: 7,200.00 ISK Basic commodities: 300.00 ISK Planet Resources: 2,00 ISK
See this link for more details:https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArwDZeNtSE3XdE55b2NxR2dyN09tenlwV2J3WGpIYUE Allow us to change characters of the same account without the need to logout and put the password again. |
Invictra Atreides
Toward the Terra
49
|
Posted - 2012.03.05 19:04:00 -
[2] - Quote
Those numbers can only change every 6 months if needed. But then again I don't see how this will help anyone ? Blog |-áTutorials | Youtube "I donGÇÖt know everything, I just know what I know." |
Mavnas
The Scope Gallente Federation
20
|
Posted - 2012.03.05 19:29:00 -
[3] - Quote
Those numbers are highly variable by commodity. For example, there's a number of advanced commodities that are constantly above 1.5m. Very few specialized commodities are as low as you propose. Well, really all your other figures look exceptionally low. |
Unforgiven Storm
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
101
|
Posted - 2012.03.05 19:31:00 -
[4] - Quote
Invictra Atreides wrote:Those numbers can only change every 6 months if needed. But then again I don't see how this will help anyone ?
I can't speak for everyone, but in my personal case it will HELP me save isk, some considerable ammount of it.
By keeping the base prices aligned with the market prices, the taxes we pay become more fair and we don't have to take from our already small profit margins to cover the diference between market and base prices when is time to pay taxes.
Tell me in RL when you buy something and pay VAT, do you pay VAT having in account the current price of the product at that time of the buy or the price of the product from 3 months back?
I understand CCP cannot update these values on a daily basis, but 3 months is a nice round number, having in account how volatile the market is in EVE. Allow us to change characters of the same account without the need to logout and put the password again. |
Salcon Cliff
Aliastra Gallente Federation
38
|
Posted - 2012.03.05 19:39:00 -
[5] - Quote
Make it like property tax...when the basis goes down, the rates go up!
So, sure, CCP adjusts the basis and increases the rates, so you pay the same...
And, although I generally only make robotics and smartfabs (specialized commodities), they sell for above 50k each at the moment (smartfabs closer to 60k), so those are not so far off.
Anyway, got POCOs and couldn't give a flip about taxes . Oh, maybe they should raise them, that would be good. |
Unforgiven Storm
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
101
|
Posted - 2012.03.05 19:44:00 -
[6] - Quote
Mavnas wrote:Those numbers are highly variable by commodity. For example, there's a number of advanced commodities that are constantly above 1.5m. Very few specialized commodities are as low as you propose. Well, really all your other figures look exceptionally low.
All the prices and volumes are from Jita taken today.
The metodology taken to calculate the everage can be discussed, I went for the one I think is more fair: - I calculate the average of the products by tier having in account their volumes sold.
I don't think is fair that a product that is expensive but sells very low numbers impose a higher average number over a product of the same tier that sell by the millions but is cheaper.
For example if there is a product A that sells for 1,500,000 and a B that sells for 1,000,000, the simple everage of the two will be 1,250.000. But having in account the volumes sold, things take a turn, for example if I only sold 1 unit of A and 10 units of B the average of these 2 products will be 1,045,454 and I think this number is more realistic and fair to be used as the base for taxes.
is a matter of opinion I guess...
Allow us to change characters of the same account without the need to logout and put the password again. |
Ninyania alCladdyth
McLuvin AstroDynamics
20
|
Posted - 2012.03.05 19:50:00 -
[7] - Quote
Goons do PI??
*boggle*
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Invictra Atreides
Toward the Terra
49
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Posted - 2012.03.05 21:04:00 -
[8] - Quote
@Unforgiven Storm If you lower the Tax then it will all be the same as before the taxes went up. Tell me where your profits bigger before they changed tax ?
Long ago when EVE still had the old Tax system everyone was happy, well not everyone. Those producing P4 have been paying 50.000 ISK per item for ages.
Did you know that Biofuels cost 65.00 ISK in the past. Today they cost 125.00 ISK minimum. Yes you pay 50 ISK Tax, but still get 75.00 ISK profit. In the end it's the same, tax or no tax. Lowering Tax won't give you more profit. Instead all items will become cheaper.
So you might think why doesn't CCP put the tax at 0%. It won't hurt anyone right? What about those that risked millions of ISK to build their own POCO. Won't they be cheated for their efforts of building and protecting a POCO. They will be the only ones that will get less profit if the tax gets lowered. In Null/WH/LowSec all Tax changes into profit. Blog |-áTutorials | Youtube "I donGÇÖt know everything, I just know what I know." |
Mavnas
The Scope Gallente Federation
20
|
Posted - 2012.03.05 21:54:00 -
[9] - Quote
Well, technically any change that makes customs offices less valuable directly hurts some people.
But more directly, right now if you assemble multiple steps on a planet like p1->p3 or p2->p4 you basically get to pocket the import/export tax you avoided by keeping the goods on world. (Market price for most things is the cost of components + taxes give or take a tiny margin.) Lowering taxes hurts those that buy your resources and assemble fancier ones from them. |
Diamaht Nevain
Avatar Union
0
|
Posted - 2012.03.06 02:14:00 -
[10] - Quote
I tried making 3 different advanced commodities this week just to test things out. I made significant profit without taxes, came out at a loss with taxes. A very large loss using mats from sell orders, small loss using mats from buy orders. This is at 10% tax in high sec.
They are trying encourage more participation in PI but if there is no profit combined with the risks of seeking a safe outlet in low sec, why would anyone bother?
You are relatively safe in a wormhole I guess, but if you are not in a corp that can establish and protect your own customs offices I don't see the point in even trying PI.
Don't know what their data shows, but it seems these changes will discourage people from doing PI in-spite of all the good UI changes. |
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Uriel Walker
NPC Tax Evasion Corp
1
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Posted - 2012.03.06 11:44:00 -
[11] - Quote
Am I doing something wrong then? I buy P1 and produce P2/P3/P4 in HS. Almost everything can be produced at a profit. Although it seems to me making P4 is not worth it in most cases since you can make more money selling the P3 components. |
Cyniac
Twilight Star Rangers Black Thorne Alliance
167
|
Posted - 2012.03.06 12:00:00 -
[12] - Quote
Unforgiven Storm wrote:I would like to request CCP to update the base values of PI taxes to reflect current market changes, the same way and interval you update base prices for ship insurance purposes.
I think you've not thought through the implications of all this.
As someone who has actively been putting up POCOs I find this to be a very bad idea. I've projected a given profit from POCOs at a given tax rate why do you want to fiddle with it now?
Especially, as contrary to your assertions, PI materials are MORE expensive, not less than when CCP announced the changes to POCOs.
And that's the rub - your timepoint for determining market value of commodities should not be when POCOs were introduced - by that point PI materials were riding a huge speculative bubble. Your real timepoint should be when POCOs were initially announced, and if you go by that timepoint you should raise the tax rate by around 50%, not drop it.
So I say leave it as is and live with it. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
270
|
Posted - 2012.03.06 13:44:00 -
[13] - Quote
Uriel Walker wrote:Am I doing something wrong then? I buy P1 and produce P2/P3/P4 in HS. Almost everything can be produced at a profit. Although it seems to me making P4 is not worth it in most cases since you can make more money selling the P3 components.
Yes, you're doing something very wrong indeed. Imagine, giving (unfortunately only anecdotal) proof that argues against what the OP is saying.
You should be ashamed of yourself. FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator and other 'useful' utilities. |
Mavnas
The Scope Gallente Federation
23
|
Posted - 2012.03.06 21:50:00 -
[14] - Quote
Diamaht Nevain wrote:I tried making 3 different advanced commodities this week just to test things out. I made significant profit without taxes, came out at a loss with taxes. A very large loss using mats from sell orders, small loss using mats from buy orders. This is at 10% tax in high sec.
You need to make them from stuff 2-3 steps down. When you do that you get to keep the P2 or P3 taxes. For example 1m in P1/P2 goods can be turned into a Broadcast Node each hour at IV skill. (You have to feed a couple P2s.) It's a pain, but you pocket 300-500k /hr. after taxes. If you turn P3 -> P4, that's not going to be profitable. |
Diamaht Nevain
Avatar Union
0
|
Posted - 2012.03.07 02:44:00 -
[15] - Quote
Mavnas wrote:Diamaht Nevain wrote:I tried making 3 different advanced commodities this week just to test things out. I made significant profit without taxes, came out at a loss with taxes. A very large loss using mats from sell orders, small loss using mats from buy orders. This is at 10% tax in high sec. You need to make them from stuff 2-3 steps down. When you do that you get to keep the P2 or P3 taxes. For example 1m in P1/P2 goods can be turned into a Broadcast Node each hour at IV skill. (You have to feed a couple P2s.) It's a pain, but you pocket 300-500k /hr. after taxes. If you turn P3 -> P4, that's not going to be profitable.
Yeah but you are still paying the export tax on P4 and that's the real hit. The import tax on p2's or p3's isn't too bad.
Edit: And honestly, another post from a station owner saying what translates to "I'm making a killing so don't touch it" isn't really needed. It's implied. |
Mavnas
The Scope Gallente Federation
23
|
Posted - 2012.03.07 05:30:00 -
[16] - Quote
Diamaht Nevain wrote:Yeah but you are still paying the export tax on P4 and that's the real hit. The import tax on p2's or p3's isn't too bad.
Edit: And honestly, another post from a station owner saying what translates to "I'm making a killing so don't touch it" isn't really needed. It's implied.
Umm... if you do the math the taxes you pay for making P4 and exporting them break down like this (generally, some P4 are extra painful).
P4 export = 135,000 P3 import = 18x 3.5k = 63k P3 export = 18 x 7k = 126k P2 import = 60x 450 = 27k P2 export = 60 x 900 = 54k P1 import = 480 x 25 = 12k P1 export = 480 x 50 = 24k
If you try to do just the P3 -> P4 step on a world you can't possibly make money. If they dropped the price, the market would just adjust and you'd still not be able to make money. You would however lose a chance at the 250k or so you could make by avoiding the P2 and P3 tax.
PI in general is too much hassle for me, but I'll admit my industry alts have made some money from selling customs offices. (Running one also strikes me as too much of a hassle.) |
Ninyania alCladdyth
McLuvin AstroDynamics
20
|
Posted - 2012.03.07 13:22:00 -
[17] - Quote
Please... just stop trying to do high-sec PI... you're messing up my profits. |
Salcon Cliff
Aliastra Gallente Federation
40
|
Posted - 2012.03.07 14:23:00 -
[18] - Quote
At the very basic level, CCP is trying to create incentives for POCOs. The only real way to do that is to keep the taxes somewhat high. If there is no incentive for POCOs (i.e. low taxes), then everyone would pay taxes and whatever the taxes end up being gets washed out in the market. |
JitaPriceChecker2
State War Academy Caldari State
32
|
Posted - 2012.03.07 15:05:00 -
[19] - Quote
Tax should be in integer number not in % of artificial prices.
This is your problem. |
Diamaht Nevain
Avatar Union
0
|
Posted - 2012.03.07 16:31:00 -
[20] - Quote
Mavnas wrote:Diamaht Nevain wrote:Yeah but you are still paying the export tax on P4 and that's the real hit. The import tax on p2's or p3's isn't too bad.
Edit: And honestly, another post from a station owner saying what translates to "I'm making a killing so don't touch it" isn't really needed. It's implied. Umm... if you do the math the taxes you pay for making P4 and exporting them break down like this (generally, some P4 are extra painful). P4 export = 135,000 P3 import = 18x 3.5k = 63k P3 export = 18 x 7k = 126k P2 import = 60x 450 = 27k P2 export = 60 x 900 = 54k P1 import = 480 x 25 = 12k P1 export = 480 x 50 = 24k If you try to do just the P3 -> P4 step on a world you can't possibly make money. If they dropped the price, the market would just adjust and you'd still not be able to make money. You would however lose a chance at the 250k or so you could make by avoiding the P2 and P3 tax. PI in general is too much hassle for me, but I'll admit my industry alts have made some money from selling customs offices. (Running one also strikes me as too much of a hassle.)
I see what you mean, you are skipping tax tiers by starting lower. You won't be able to go from P1 to P4 with one planet though.
Another issue that comes up is how much you are paying if you want to have 4 or 5 planets in a production chain. I guess i'm just frustrated because this system seems to limit what you can do. |
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Scion Lex
LEX Investments Solid Foundation
5
|
Posted - 2012.03.07 19:49:00 -
[21] - Quote
JitaPriceChecker2 wrote:Tax should be in integer number not in % of artificial prices.
This is your problem.
Agreed. |
Mavnas
The Scope Gallente Federation
23
|
Posted - 2012.03.07 21:22:00 -
[22] - Quote
Diamaht Nevain wrote: I see what you mean, you are skipping tax tiers by starting lower. You won't be able to go from P1 to P4 with one planet though.
Another issue that comes up is how much you are paying if you want to have 4 or 5 planets in a production chain. I guess i'm just frustrated because this system seems to limit what you can do.
You can. Make broadcast nodes, import the glass (or whatever the thing made from Silicon and something else that's way cheaper than making from P1 + one more of the P2s) and have at least 4 in your CC upgrades skill. That or have 5 in the skill and just make it completely.
Of course the downside is you can only really load up like 12 hours worth of production at any given time due to limitations in your storage facilities. It's a pain, but if you have a small amount of money and want to make a pretty hefty per hour ISK amount 1 jump from a main trade hub at the cost of constant operation, it's not terrible. Of course prices may have changed since I did the math, but you should be able to squeeze out profit at least equal to the tier of taxes you skipped.
Actually P1->P3 might be better (less hassle, more hours of production queued up, lower skill requirements to get some production going).
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Diamaht Nevain
Avatar Union
0
|
Posted - 2012.03.07 23:30:00 -
[23] - Quote
Mavnas wrote:Diamaht Nevain wrote: I see what you mean, you are skipping tax tiers by starting lower. You won't be able to go from P1 to P4 with one planet though.
Another issue that comes up is how much you are paying if you want to have 4 or 5 planets in a production chain. I guess i'm just frustrated because this system seems to limit what you can do.
You can. Make broadcast nodes, import the glass (or whatever the thing made from Silicon and something else that's way cheaper than making from P1 + one more of the P2s) and have at least 4 in your CC upgrades skill. That or have 5 in the skill and just make it completely. Of course the downside is you can only really load up like 12 hours worth of production at any given time due to limitations in your storage facilities. It's a pain, but if you have a small amount of money and want to make a pretty hefty per hour ISK amount 1 jump from a main trade hub at the cost of constant operation, it's not terrible. Of course prices may have changed since I did the math, but you should be able to squeeze out profit at least equal to the tier of taxes you skipped. Actually P1->P3 might be better (less hassle, more hours of production queued up, lower skill requirements to get some production going).
I know what your are saying but you are mentioning inport pricing. If we could have inport pricing both ways that would be fine. I'm saying that export prices are out of line (they are twice as much). The markets will even out if they make changes, but if these tarrifs are not such a limiting factor you can watch the market, see when something opens up and act quickly. With massive taxes it limits your posiblities because the market it not always good on every commodity at the same time. With so many items using the same resources up the chain you can have a market opening on one resource but the tarrifs will still limit you because the overall market won't compensate.
Technically you could just eject everything into space and pick it up, but a command center only holds 500m3 so it would take forever (P4's are 100m3 each). |
Taedrin
Kushan Industrial
371
|
Posted - 2012.03.08 00:53:00 -
[24] - Quote
Prices are naturally higher on the weekends, and naturally lower in the middle of the week. So it is not surprising that your calculated numbers are lower than the current taxes.
Also, taxes are merely a part of the cost of doing business. If taxes are cutting into your profits, this may be because POSes are becoming more expensive to operate which lowers demand (read: isotope prices are rising, which is a complementary good to PI goods) |
Raziel Walker
Grey Templars Ushra'Khan
0
|
Posted - 2012.03.08 12:54:00 -
[25] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:You should be ashamed of yourself.
Sorry at work and no access to my excel sheet with details. I mentioned before I produce P2/3/4 fro P1 and almost everythign makes a profit. I lied.
Producing P2 depends a lot on the price you pay for your P1 and at what price you sell your P2. I admit less as half shows as a profit at the moment but it depends a lot on the changing prices.
Producing P4 from P1 gives less profit as just selling the P3. And production slows because you can't place enough factories on a planet to produce an item like wetware mainframes in big volumes. (3 different P3 required where each P3 consists of 3 P2. Meaning you need 9 factories producing P2, 3 factories for producing P3 and one factory for producing P4. which results in only 1 P4 every 4 hours since you need 2 runs/hours of P3 production for one P4 and you need 2 P2 runs/hours to get the materials for one P3.
Let's say you can sell your wetware mainframe for 1.4m. P1 import tax is 25*160*9=36000 P4 export tax is 135.000 Let's say the average P1 costs about 500 isk making the pile of P1 required for one wetware mainframe 720.000 Total build cost for one P4: 891.000. Jita sell-build price = half a million profit.
Lets say you can sell your robotics for 55.000 P1 import tax = (25*80*4)/3=2666 P3 export tax = 7000 Let's say the average P1 costs about 400 isk making the pile of P1 required for one robotics cost 42.666 Total build cost for one P3: 45333 Jita sell-build price = almost 10.000 profit << yeah that 400 isk average P1 buy price is probably on the low side.
Lets say you can sell your mechanical parts for 9000 P1 import tax = (25*40*2)/5=400 P3 export tax = 900 Let's say the average P1 costs about 450 isk making the pile of P1 required for one robotics cost 7200 Total build cost for one P3: 8500 Jita sell-build price = almost 500 profit
I am even building a batch of robotics from P2 but those have a build cost of 56.000 isk so not worth it unless prices go up. Else they will just be used for fuel blocks.
Please point out the mistake in my calculation besides the buy/sell price that were just made up. |
Mavnas
The Scope Gallente Federation
23
|
Posted - 2012.03.08 20:35:00 -
[26] - Quote
Diamaht Nevain wrote: I know what your are saying but you are mentioning inport pricing. If we could have inport pricing both ways that would be fine. I'm saying that export prices are out of line (they are twice as much). The markets will even out if they make changes, but if these tarrifs are not such a limiting factor you can watch the market, see when something opens up and act quickly. With massive taxes it limits your posiblities because the market it not always good on every commodity at the same time. With so many items using the same resources up the chain you can have a market opening on one resource but the tarrifs will still limit you because the overall market won't compensate.
I don't follow your logic. The taxes are baked into the market prices. If taxes were lowered, market prices would fall with them and you'd still not make much money for single stage assembly. |
Mavnas
The Scope Gallente Federation
23
|
Posted - 2012.03.08 20:40:00 -
[27] - Quote
Raziel Walker wrote:[ Let's say you can sell your wetware mainframe for 1.4m. P1 import tax is 25*160*9=36000 P4 export tax is 135.000 Let's say the average P1 costs about 500 isk making the pile of P1 required for one wetware mainframe 720.000 Total build cost for one P4: 891.000. Jita sell-build price = half a million profit.
Lets say you can sell your robotics for 55.000 P1 import tax = (25*80*4)/3=2666 P3 export tax = 7000 Let's say the average P1 costs about 400 isk making the pile of P1 required for one robotics cost 42.666 Total build cost for one P3: 45333 Jita sell-build price = almost 10.000 profit << yeah that 400 isk average P1 buy price is probably on the low side.
Lets say you can sell your mechanical parts for 9000 P1 import tax = (25*40*2)/5=400 P3 export tax = 900 Let's say the average P1 costs about 450 isk making the pile of P1 required for one robotics cost 7200 Total build cost for one P3: 8500 Jita sell-build price = almost 500 profit
I am even building a batch of robotics from P2 but those have a build cost of 56.000 isk so not worth it unless prices go up. Else they will just be used for fuel blocks.
Please point out the mistake in my calculation besides the buy/sell price that were just made up.
Using a wetware mainframe is unrealistic. It uses far too much P1 to be viable on a single planet. Also your pricing seems low. Broadcast nodes are at least 1.5m each and require only 2 P1s for each P2, and 2 P2s for each P3s, etc.
I need to check my numbers when I get home. |
Diamaht Nevain
Avatar Union
0
|
Posted - 2012.03.08 20:57:00 -
[28] - Quote
Mavnas wrote:Diamaht Nevain wrote: I know what your are saying but you are mentioning inport pricing. If we could have inport pricing both ways that would be fine. I'm saying that export prices are out of line (they are twice as much). The markets will even out if they make changes, but if these tarrifs are not such a limiting factor you can watch the market, see when something opens up and act quickly. With massive taxes it limits your posiblities because the market it not always good on every commodity at the same time. With so many items using the same resources up the chain you can have a market opening on one resource but the tarrifs will still limit you because the overall market won't compensate.
I don't follow your logic. The taxes are baked into the market prices. If taxes were lowered, market prices would fall with them and you'd still not make much money for single stage assembly.
What I'm saying is that taxes are not baked into the pricing with this system. Someone at 10% tax rate cannot compete with someone at 3% tax rate. Playing and monitoring the market is not as important as customs office ownership. An industrious corp would simply find great planets, take over the customs, set it to 1% for corp members and rule the market.
You need the size and capability to defend your assets though, so a corp of some size is needed. Taxes are not baked in because we are not all paying the same rates. They've turned PI into a sort of mini sovereignty for low sec.
Edit: I guess I only added confusion with the way I worded earlier posts, so I apologies for that. |
Moira Kali
Republic University Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2012.03.09 11:52:00 -
[29] - Quote
Diamaht Nevain wrote:[quote=Mavnas][quote=Diamaht Nevain] You need the size and capability to defend your assets though, so a corp of some size is needed. Taxes are not baked in because we are not all paying the same rates. They've turned PI into a sort of mini sovereignty for low sec.
This is the real issue, for me. Low sec Pi is not something you can explore with an alt anylonger. Now you need a corp that can ensure the minimum safety for you to operate without the risk of havingg your production set-up turned into something unprofitable overnight just because of a change on taxes.
Though I understand that POCOS bring a new facet to the game, new forms of player interactions and territory disputes, I'm not sure if this mini sovereignty thing is something you wanna bring to Low Sec systems. |
Mavnas
The Scope Gallente Federation
23
|
Posted - 2012.03.09 16:09:00 -
[30] - Quote
Diamaht Nevain wrote:[What I'm saying is that taxes are not baked into the pricing with this system. Someone at 10% tax rate cannot compete with someone at 3% tax rate. Playing and monitoring the market is not as important as customs office ownership. An industrious corp would simply find great planets, take over the customs, set it to 1% for corp members and rule the market.
You need the size and capability to defend your assets though, so a corp of some size is needed. Taxes are not baked in because we are not all paying the same rates. They've turned PI into a sort of mini sovereignty for low sec.
Edit: I guess I only added confusion with the way I worded earlier posts, so I apologies for that.
I suspect the cost of maintaining that 3% vs. 10% and shipping quantities back to high-sec makes up for it. Like I said, the more production steps you cut out of your chain the more you cut your taxes, but I see your point. |
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