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Elles D Caldari Contraband Inc.	Posted - 2008.05.18 22:52:00 - [91] CCP sort it out Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Joe Starbreaker	Posted - 2008.05.18 23:06:00 - [92] Originally by: Gloria Stitz Originally by: Nyphur Originally by: Jinx Barker Frankly this kind of vacillation from one "type" of punishment to the next just reeks of "COVER UP" Not that I don't like a good bit of sensationalism but it's more likely that it was unintentional incompetance. He could have been initially banned by a new GM in training and the senior GMs don't catch every mistake. It seems to have been escalated - sackings are in order for this sort of incompetence. It doesn't seem like a mistake. You think the GM should be fired for shutting down a spammer, then letting him back into the game after it was determined he wasn't a "professional" and had learned his lesson? It seems like CCP did it just right. By the way, how do you make your text green? ---------------- [insert signature here]
Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2008.05.18 23:40:00 - [93] Edited by: Nyphur on 18/05/2008 23:42:45 Originally by: Joe Starbreaker Originally by: Gloria Stitz It seems to have been escalated - sackings are in order for this sort of incompetence. It doesn't seem like a mistake. You think the GM should be fired for shutting down a spammer, then letting him back into the game after it was determined he wasn't a "professional" and had learned his lesson? It seems like CCP did it just right. Now I don't think anyone should be fired as not only is that overkill but it could also be illegal depending on the work laws where the GM is but you cannot seriously say that the GMs made no mistakes here. They permabanned the guy for RMT spam because of an evemail that didn't contain anything related to RMT. After appealing, they changed it to a 5 day ban and offered the guy no explanation as to why. Four days later, they lifted the ban and said it had been a 3-day ban and not a five day ban. After complaining again, GMs told him that what he did was begging and "basically harassment" despite the mail not actually conforming to any points from the harassment section in the EULA. In addition, he said that the GM said offering a service via evemail for a fixed fee is not allowed, which is absolutely wrong. Despite the above GM communication, the official reason for his ban is still RMT spam. The guy still has had no apology for the RMT mixup or proper explanation on why he was banned. You think this is all normal operation? I'm going to reiterate my previous example. If you were afk-mining in empire and someone reported you for macroing, would you expect to be permabanned immediately and have to petition out-of-game to explain yourself and beg for your account back? I doubt it. Eve-Tanking.com - We're sorry, something happened.
Joe Starbreaker	Posted - 2008.05.18 23:48:00 - [94] Originally by: Nyphur I'm going to reiterate my previous example. If you were afk-mining in empire and someone reported you for macroing, would you expect to be permabanned immediately and have to petition out-of-game to explain yourself and beg for your account back? I doubt it. Macro-mining is different from sending eve-mail spam. CCP discovered an eve-mail spammer sending identical messages to a few dozen people. They could only assume he was still sitting at the computer copy-pasting and was preparing to send off another dozen eve-mails at the moment they encountered the petition. They shut his account down immediately. I would have done the same. In the subsequent days, it became clear that he wasn't a "professional" ISK seller but was just a typical beggar/scammer too thick-headed to understand that spam isn't and shouldn't be allowed in EVE. They un-banned him and allowed him back into the game. How else do you think this should have been handled? How many of you are seriously in favor of allowing mass evemail spamming of copied-and-pasted scamming/begging messages? ---------------- [insert signature here]
Ridley Tree The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2008.05.19 00:04:00 - [95] Edited by: Ridley Tree on 19/05/2008 00:04:57 Originally by: Joe Starbreaker In the subsequent days, it became clear that he wasn't a "professional" ISK seller but was just a typical beggar/scammer too thick-headed to understand that spam isn't and shouldn't be allowed in EVE. They un-banned him and allowed him back into the game. How else do you think this should have been handled? An apology, 4 free days of game play and a removal of any kind of 'ban' from the little customer service black book. And oh yes, customer service departments keep little black books. Quote: How many of you are seriously in favor of allowing mass evemail spamming of copied-and-pasted scamming/begging messages? 1) It wasn't mass 2) It wasn't begging and its only scamming if the OP didn't intend to do what he offered 3) 100% in favor of what the op was trying to do. _______ Pirating 101: A Basic Course
Joe Starbreaker	Posted - 2008.05.19 00:13:00 - [96] Originally by: Ridley Tree Originally by: Joe Starbreaker How else do you think this should have been handled? An apology, 4 free days of game play and a removal of any kind of 'ban' from the little customer service black book. But what if he's seen spamming again next week? GMs should certainly have it on record that he was banned before for sending unsolicited mass evemails asking for money. If he doesn't plan on doing it again, he shouldn't care about his 'permanent record'. Originally by: Ridley Tree Quote: How many of you are seriously in favor of allowing mass evemail spamming of copied-and-pasted scamming/begging messages? 1) It wasn't mass 2) It wasn't begging and its only scamming if the OP didn't intend to do what he offered 3) 100% in favor of what the op was trying to do. Ok it was merely a ludicrous "business proposition" and was only sent to several dozen people. Where do you draw the line between the above, and spam? Would it be spam if he asked for 200M instead of 100M? 500M? What if he sent it to 100 people instead of 50? ---------------- [insert signature here]
Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2008.05.19 00:17:00 - [97] Originally by: Joe Starbreaker Macro-mining is different from sending eve-mail spam. You can't just dismiss my point by saying they're different things. Of course they're different, can you seriously not see how they're equivalent for the purposes of evaluating appropriate GM response? Spamming and macroing are both rule infractions that could warrant a ban but will not warrant permabans unless there's some other factor involved. For example, if the spammer is spamming RMT messages, he should be permabanned and if the macrominer is running 200 ice-mining accounts to supply RMT, he should be permabanned. Now what happens if you're mining ice in the midst of 200 RMT-supplying macro-iceminers and you get permabanned mistakenly? It's the same level of mistake as if you'd sent spam and been mistaken for an RMT spammer. You SHOULD have been contacted by a GM and warned or at worst tempbanned for macroing but if you were mistaken for one of the RMT-macroers, you'd be permabanned straight away. That's why GMs should not ban first and ask questions later and that's why the standard policy actually is (whether you want to believe this or not) to contact the player and warn them before going to bans. Originally by: Joe Starbreaker CCP discovered an eve-mail spammer sending identical messages to a few dozen people. They could only assume he was still sitting at the computer copy-pasting and was preparing to send off another dozen eve-mails at the moment they encountered the petition. They shut his account down immediately. I would have done the same. And you'd also have been wrong too. It is not CCP policy to permaban spammers without warning unless they're massively breaking the rules by spamming with something obscene, racist or RMT related. It's not even policy to issue temp bans for spamming 30-odd people with a business proposal - at worst, that crime merits a warning not to do it again. Originally by: Joe Starbreaker In the subsequent days, it became clear that he wasn't a "professional" ISK seller but was just a typical beggar/scammer too thick-headed to understand that spam isn't and shouldn't be allowed in EVE. They un-banned him and allowed him back into the game. Actually, they didn't just unban him. They commutted his permaban to a 3-day ban that he'd already served 4 days on and if he's telling the truth they didn't even apologise for the mistake. Originally by: Joe Starbreaker How else do you think this should have been handled? By standard policy. Call me crazy but when the policy is to send someone a warning for spamming and then progress to bans if they persist, I would expect that the GM would do that. Originally by: Joe Starbreaker How many of you are seriously in favor of allowing mass evemail spamming of copied-and-pasted scamming/begging messages? This is another logical fallacy, you're essentially simplifying the argument to make your own position seem more reasonable. You're suggesting that defending the OP is equivalent to being in favour of mass evemail spamming of copy-paste scams. This completely ignores legitimate uses of mass-mail (which arguably the mail the OP sent WAS) such as mailing potential business partners or shareholders with a proposal. This is something that people have done for years in Eve and if that's against the rules, then the rules aren't fair. Eve-Tanking.com - We're sorry, something happened.
Azzma	Posted - 2008.05.19 00:22:00 - [98] Originally by: Joe Starbreaker How many of you are seriously in favor of allowing mass evemail spamming of copied-and-pasted scamming/begging messages? Joe Starbreaker - You are missing the point. Offering the services to the CSM candidate is allowed, but my offer mentioned "a fix amount ISK" so I was "basically harrasing". This is straight from their explanation.
Joe Starbreaker	Posted - 2008.05.19 00:25:00 - [99] Originally by: Nyphur Originally by: Joe Starbreaker Macro-mining is different from sending eve-mail spam. You can't just dismiss my point by saying they're different things. When a spammer is actively sending out messages, and may very well be in the process of sending more, you ban him immediately to stem the harrassment of other players. A macro-miner is affecting the economy slowly and in a reversible way, and you can take your time to investigate. Originally by: Nyphur That's why GMs should not ban first and ask questions later and that's why the standard policy actually is (whether you want to believe this or not) to contact the player and warn them before going to bans. If you'd only look at the policy that you and I both quoted in prior responses, you'd see that CCP reserves the right to either issue an immediate permaban or issue a warning, at their discretion. Originally by: Nyphur Originally by: Joe Starbreaker How many of you are seriously in favor of allowing mass evemail spamming of copied-and-pasted scamming/begging messages? This completely ignores legitimate uses of mass-mail ... such as mailing potential business partners or shareholders with a proposal. So, sending ten thousand evemails to everybody that passes through Jita on a particular day (potential business partners) offering to sell them a Republic Fleet Firetail for 500M ISK (a proposal) should be OK? ---------------- [insert signature here]
Joe Starbreaker	Posted - 2008.05.19 00:26:00 - [100] Originally by: Azzma Originally by: Joe Starbreaker How many of you are seriously in favor of allowing mass evemail spamming of copied-and-pasted scamming/begging messages? Joe Starbreaker - You are missing the point. Offering the services to the CSM candidate is allowed, but my offer mentioned "a fix amount ISK" so I was "basically harrasing". This is straight from their explanation. Let's be honest. You sent an identical offer to all those people, asking a ridiculous amount of money, hoping that one or two would "bite". That's spam, not a business negotiation. ---------------- [insert signature here]
Mr Friendly	Posted - 2008.05.19 00:29:00 - [101] Well, more evidence Eves GMs need to relearn basic customer service and have adequate supervisory personnel to prevent this sort of thing getting anywhere near the forums. It's not that hard, guys. Originally by: CCP Prism X Also, posting in a Jenny thread.
Sunbird Huy Yarrtards With Epeen	Posted - 2008.05.19 00:35:00 - [102] Originally by: Jinx Barker Originally by: Sunbird Huy Japanese don't need lobbying, they need to learn English. Coz out of 1000 Japanese 2 have tried learning it, 1 has failed miserably, and the other one, well, he thinks learning it was a waste of time... As for ISK spamming...U are sending eve mails about selling ISK for real money? U HAVE TO BE BANNED FOR THAT. 1 or 1000 mails. Did you even read the thread? OP never sent any mails with ISK for Cash solicitations. It was all a GM misunderstanding/mistake, something they still have not acknowledged, with the exception of trying to play with OP's punishments. Oh, and speaking of English, if grammar mistakes were felonies, you would be scheduled for execution just about now. Talk about butchery of language. awww... butchery? for using U instead of You? I think U clearly understood what I said, haven't you?
Azzma	Posted - 2008.05.19 00:37:00 - [103] Originally by: Joe Starbreaker Let's be honest. You sent an identical offer to all those people, asking a ridiculous amount of money, hoping that one or two would "bite". That's spam, not a business negotiation. Monetary amounts and the valuation of services are totally a personal judgement, depending on an individual's circumstances. I am sure that quite a few EVE citizens consider 100 million ISK as mere pocket change, while others consider it vast. In fact, I received offers quite higher than even my own.
Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2008.05.19 00:40:00 - [104] Originally by: Joe Starbreaker When a spammer is actively sending out messages, and may very well be in the process of sending more, you ban him immediately to stem the harrassment of other players. YOU might but CCP bloody doesn't. Get that into your head, CCP does not permaban spammers and then wait for them to complain. That is not their policy and you know it. Originally by: Joe Starbreaker If you'd only look at the policy that you and I both quoted in prior responses, you'd see that CCP reserves the right to either issue an immediate permaban or issue a warning, at their discretion. We both know that they only issue permanant bans for "severe" infractions of the rules, which does not describe the OP's position by any stretch of the imagination. Originally by: Joe Starbreaker So, sending ten thousand evemails to everybody that passes through Jita on a particular day (potential business partners) offering to sell them a Republic Fleet Firetail for 500M ISK (a proposal) should be OK? You love logical fallacies, don't you? You're extending my position to the point of absurdity, eliminating common sense. Unfortuantely, you've just proven my point because in that case the person would NOT be permabanned, they'd be gagged and warned to stop by a GM first. I know this because it happened to someone in jita once who mailed me when I docked in 4-4. I told him that his mail was spam and he apologised and said he had been warned not to do it again. Additionally, while GMs have the discretion to choose punishment but they do so with common sense. Common sense dictates that your absurd example is worthy of punishment but that me mailing all my old shareholders to tell them about a new IPO is not. Where to draw the line is not up to me or you, it's up to the GMs. Eve-Tanking.com - We're sorry, something happened.
Mr Friendly	Posted - 2008.05.19 01:01:00 - [105] Originally by: Nyphur Additionally, while GMs have the discretion to choose punishment but they do so with common sense. Common sense dictates that your absurd example is worthy of punishment but that me mailing all my old shareholders to tell them about a new IPO is not. Where to draw the line is not up to me or you, it's up to the GMs. Remember kids, eve-mail is never to be used for commerce-related activities. Ever ever ever. Down with common sense! Ban Nyphur and his patently evil progressive ideas. Do it now. I demand it. Originally by: CCP Prism X Also, posting in a Jenny thread.
Joe Starbreaker	Posted - 2008.05.19 01:15:00 - [106] Originally by: Nyphur Originally by: Joe Starbreaker When a spammer is actively sending out messages, and may very well be in the process of sending more, you ban him immediately to stem the harrassment of other players. YOU might but CCP bloody doesn't. Get that into your head, CCP does not permaban spammers and then wait for them to complain. That is not their policy and you know it. Evidence indicates otherwise. EVE mail is significantly less spammy than normal email, which is particularly noteworthy since fraud and scamming (one-on-one) is allowed in EVE but generally illegal in real life. Why do you think your EVE inbox is so remarkably spam-free, if not because GMs are actively shutting down the spammers. I won't childishly suggest "and you know it" but I will say that you should be quite able to see that an anti-spam policy exists, even if it isn't written very explicitly. Thank you for your lessons in logic, but I prefer Aristotle's version. I think the only reason you're arguing in favor of spam is that you set out to support the OP (or attack the GM) and don't have the guts to backtrack when you see that you're wrong. ---------------- [insert signature here]
Azzma	Posted - 2008.05.19 01:34:00 - [107] Joe Starbreaker, no one was banned for simple spam. lol. The explanation was that there was a "fix amount of ISK" in the offers.
Thorradin State War Academy	Posted - 2008.05.19 02:14:00 - [108] This must be the sensationalism and tinfoil hattery I was told about when I started playing EVE. If CCP screwed up what makes you people think they're going to be public about it when they only seem to be publicly active when someone buys ISK and has to have their BS called? Maybe CCP has in the past been very vocal about screwing up a punishment for a player, but if they were they'd be the first company I'd ever have heard of doing it. It sounds like the player got hit incorrectly for isk selling, then had it changed once it was realized he wasn't doing whatever they thought he was doing, and then had it further lessened/removed as they decided it wasn't as bad as originally thought. I'm not sure what part of that warrants vocal public discussion from CCP, can someone point me to a past incident where something like this happened and CCP had lots of public posts about it like people seem to be expecting?
Wren Alterana Minmatar The Baros Syndicate Kissaki Republic	Posted - 2008.05.19 02:21:00 - [109] I'm not normally one to defend CCP...so I won't, this is an example of how NOT to do things, GMs should be taking notes on the failure that is this problem, if the GMs actually looked into things just a little more throughly this wouldn't happen. _________ Dynamic Maps
Ridley Tree The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2008.05.19 02:44:00 - [110] Originally by: Joe Starbreaker But what if he's seen spamming again next week? GMs should certainly have it on record that he was banned before for sending unsolicited mass evemails asking for money. If he doesn't plan on doing it again, he shouldn't care about his 'permanent record'. He shouldn't have been banned in the first place. Quote: Ok it was merely a ludicrous "business proposition" and was only sent to several dozen people. Where do you draw the line between the above, and spam? Would it be spam if he asked for 200M instead of 100M? 500M? What if he sent it to 100 people instead of 50? It was a targeted business proposal sent to a specific, small, target group offering what seems to be a fairly legitimate service (ie, reaching out to an audience that speaks and writes in another language). It is neither harassment, RMT nor spam. _______ Pirating 101: A Basic Course
Ridley Tree The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2008.05.19 02:51:00 - [111] Originally by: Joe Starbreaker Evidence indicates otherwise. EVE mail is significantly less spammy than normal email, which is particularly noteworthy since fraud and scamming (one-on-one) is allowed in EVE but generally illegal in real life. Why do you think your EVE inbox is so remarkably spam-free, if not because GMs are actively shutting down the spammers. I won't childishly suggest "and you know it" but I will say that you should be quite able to see that an anti-spam policy exists, even if it isn't written very explicitly. What exactly do you think people will spam you about in EVE exactly? 'Join our corp!' ? 'Buy From WalMart' ? 'Buy my goods, even though you can't pick who you're buying from!' ?, 'Buy my super expensive limited market faction battleship that you can't afford!' ? Nope, spamming doesn't work for any of those. The only thing to spam people about in EVE is RMT. Which does happen... sit around in a NPC corp. And getting eve-mail spam for RMT isk does happen. It seems to have been ***ed down on. In reality CCP probably does * down on RMT Spam. And probably not much else as there isn't any other kind of spam in EVE. And again, the OP's mail isn't exactly spam. Also. If a policy isn't written down, it doesn't exist. Period. If its a policy that will be enforced on the public it must** be written down. _______ Pirating 101: A Basic Course
Cilvius Sanctus Gallente The Order of Chivalry Nex Eternus	Posted - 2008.05.19 03:54:00 - [112] Fancy seeing you in this thread Joe Starbreaker. Don't you have a failfrigate op to lead to certain doom? I initially intended to post on here stating why the OPs problem is not spam (because it was targeted to the CSM candidates, who might actually benefit from his service). That, however, has already been done. Instead, I will prove how your "point" below is wrong. Originally by: Joe Starbreaker So, sending ten thousand evemails to everybody that passes through Jita on a particular day (potential business partners) offering to sell them a Republic Fleet Firetail for 500M ISK (a proposal) should be OK? You don't know if any of those players can actually use the ship, which is likely the only reason they would want it. The CSM candidates are running for something, and if the OP can assist them in reaching a certain group of players then that is something they may actually want because they are CSM candidates. Being in Jita does not mean that they can fly a Republic Fleet Firetail, so, sending an evemail advertising the sale of such a ship to everybody who enters the system is in fact spam, and you should be issued a warning (Please note that I did not suggest a ban, unless you have severely broken the rule which has already been posted here). So, seriously, your "point" about the Republic Fleet Firetail spam is useless and contributes nothing to this post. Please go troll elsewhere.
YunFu Yan Yan Enterprises	Posted - 2008.05.19 17:26:00 - [113] Why does every thread on these forums turn into a personal argument between 2 people eventually? Anyways, I think the whole CSM is a PR-stunt and that overeager GM didn't want it to get compromised. I mean, what if a CSM candiate had actually payed the 1¯¯mil and bought votes? What if it had become public after the elections? How could they have proven the elections were not manipulated? ------------------------------------------------- Yan Enterprises - We mean business.
GB Man	Posted - 2008.05.19 19:10:00 - [114] I love how people are actually taking the CSM seriously. Simply because the CSM exists does not mean that anything will come of it. It's simply a way for CCP to funnel the thousands of complaints/suggestions/rants in a more organized fasion. But at the end of the Day, CCP will do what it thinks is best. Not bend to the masses as most other companies do.
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.05.19 19:21:00 - [115] Originally by: GB Man I love how people are actually taking the CSM seriously. Simply because the CSM exists does not mean that anything will come of it. It's simply a way for CCP to funnel the thousands of complaints/suggestions/rants in a more organized fasion. But at the end of the Day, CCP will do what it thinks is best. Not bend to the masses as most other companies do. But you fail to see the nice position it puts CCP in. If they don't please the CSM, the council will just talk bad about CCP to the media. Then it's got the totally opposite effect from what CCP expected
Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2008.05.19 19:30:00 - [116] Originally by: "Joe Starbreaker" Evidence indicates otherwise. EVE mail is significantly less spammy than normal email, which is particularly noteworthy since fraud and scamming (one-on-one) is allowed in EVE but generally illegal in real life. Why do you think your EVE inbox is so remarkably spam-free, if not because GMs are actively shutting down the spammers. I won't childishly suggest "and you know it" but I will say that you should be quite able to see that an anti-spam policy exists, even if it isn't written very explicitly. Thank you for your lessons in logic, but I prefer Aristotle's version. I think the only reason you're arguing in favor of spam is that you set out to support the OP (or attack the GM) and don't have the guts to backtrack when you see that you're wrong. It's almost as if your entire debating skillset has been derrived from the list of popular logical fallacies. To start with, I've already explained that a lack of spam in your evemail in-box does NOT imply a strong anti-spam policy is in place. Can I just show how absurd the general form of your argument is for a moment? According to my evemail inbox, there's not a single link to a pictures of cats in there. Using your argument, a lack of people evemailing me pictures of cats means it's against the rules. A logical implication can only be partially converted when reversed. The existance of strong anti-spam measures does imply that my inbox should have a low amount of spam but that does not mean that the reverse is true (that a lack of spam implies a strong anti-spam policy). Additionally, as someone else has already pointed out, if a policy is not written down then it is not CCP's public policy. Their ban policy is very clearly defined and mailing the CSMs with a business deal doesn't break any part of it. The problem here isn't that the guy was accidentally banned as that's bound to happen sometimes. The problem is that he thinks the GMs haven't given him a straight answer or apology and that they've just downgraded his permanant ban to a 3-day ban when he didn't even merit that. They should be treating his "crime" as a new and separate case, not as downgrading the punishment in the light of mitigating details. As a new case, I highly doubt they would have issued a 3-day ban or even a warning. He needs to be treated as if the GM mistaking him for an RMT spammer never happened. That means days he lost refunded to his account and an appropriate punishment, if any, for what he did. And an apology wouldn't be too bad either. By the way, your comment on Aristotle is another case of flawed logic. You've implied that my comments on logic must be wrong either because I'm not Aristotle or because my points were never made by Aristotle. I'm a programming student currently specialising in first and second order predicate logic in mathematically correct program specifications using VDM-SL notation and am perfectly able to reason using logic despite my obvious failing of not being the ancient greek philosopher Aristotle. Additionally, I believe that Aristotle was actually the first person to start discussing informal logical fallacies in De Sophisticis Elenchis. I apologise for getting so wrapped up in this argument but it's fun. I have nothing for or against the GMs or the OP at all, I just love to argue and debate and this is a nice new topic, a welcome change from hearing about cloaks and nanos and local channel for the millionth time. If I wasn't having so much fun arguing with Joe 'Brick Wall' Starbreaker, I'd probably play devil's advocate and argue against my own position. Eve-Tanking.com - We're sorry, something happened.
Serenity Steele Dynamic Data Distribution Ministry of Information	Posted - 2008.05.19 19:39:00 - [117] Azzma, I thought your offer was both a good one, genuine and in the Spirit of EVE. IMO it's wrong how you were treated, and most likely a evemail filter/checker that flagged your message. Makes me wonder how many spam messages are sent per day if CCP are reacting so vigorously ban for suspected spam (maybe they even have so much they can't read it all). I've paid ISK for translation before, just as other have for banners, hosting etc. Another approach for next CSM would be to make a post on the forums offering translation, that might get you through the filters. Once people are actually in the CSM, they are going to get spammed alot more I am anticipating, but I guess then the evemails only go to 9-15 people. ≡v≡ Strategic Maps now in Eve-Online Store
Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2008.05.19 19:56:00 - [118] Originally by: Skrotum Mk3 did any of you actually read the Terms of Service? The OP did not violate those points as he was offering in-game services for in-game currency. This was established on page 1. Eve-Tanking.com - We're sorry, something happened.
Skrotum Mk3	Posted - 2008.05.19 19:59:00 - [119] @Nyphur read #11 ... and then again... they clearly state which services are legit ... and the OPs service isnt on that list.
Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2008.05.19 20:08:00 - [120] Originally by: Skrotum Mk3 @Nyphur read #11 ... and then again... they clearly state which services are legit ... and the OPs service isnt on that list. True, but this rule was overridden a while ago. They should really update the EULA to include the changes but I specifically recall Kieron saying the rule had changed. I'll see if I can find you a link but if you want it striaght from the horse's mouth you can petition the GMs in the rules and policies section and ask them yourself. I did petition once to ask about selling Eve artwork and was told that this isn't allowed but that anything which gives a direct in-game benefit is allowed (at the discretion of the GM). The OP was offering a translation service for isk, which people have done for a while (note Serenity Steele's post). I've sold spreadsheets and business consultancy services for isk before and they aren't on that list either but they are definitely allowed. Eve-Tanking.com - We're sorry, something happened.

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